Author Topic: Documentary: Hillsborough: Smears, Survivors & The Search For Truth, 12th Dec  (Read 32790 times)

Offline Branno

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Re: Documentary: Hillsborough: Smears, Survivors & The Search For Truth, 12th Dec
« Reply #240 on: December 14, 2016, 12:06:31 am »
incredible ! just sent me on downer....but worth it

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Re: Documentary: Hillsborough: Smears, Survivors & The Search For Truth, 12th Dec
« Reply #241 on: December 14, 2016, 12:08:35 am »
If the Police had just told the truth about what had happened, they would have had far less to defend.


This is what I often think about. It would be a hugely complex thing to write about here, but there must have been a simple escape route that they felt they could go down. A dirty and horrendous one, but one that was taken very quickly and with some ease it seems. How come?

As always about Hillsborough, the documentary was a difficult watch, and I wasn't there. Well made, well researched and well presented. I couldn't help wondering about what it must have felt like to see that the instigator of that rumour was directly related to the police involved. I tried to imagine the emotions but I reckon I was a good few miles off.

What I could relate to tho, was the inherent power of 'idle chit chat' in a gentleman's club type situation between a police officer and a politician. I understood that very well. Gossip is a medium that can very soon translate as fact, and they were very good at doing that. Still asking myself 'why?' tho.



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Re: Documentary: Hillsborough: Smears, Survivors & The Search For Truth, 12th Dec
« Reply #242 on: December 14, 2016, 12:13:04 am »
Two hillsborough disasters....could have coped with the first one eventually....the 2nd.....press.....Never have.....Never will
"I know this is a sad occasion but I think that Dixie would be amazed to know that even in death he could draw a bigger crowd than Everton can on a Saturday afternoon"......Bill Shankly

Offline Something Worse

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Re: Documentary: Hillsborough: Smears, Survivors & The Search For Truth, 12th Dec
« Reply #243 on: December 14, 2016, 01:00:44 am »
It's up on Youtube now too :

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/phEblvBPpvo" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/phEblvBPpvo</a>

(Hope you don't mind me posting that too Harinder after you went to the trouble of recording it)

Thanks for posting this.

The thing that strikes me most, watching this programme on top of the others that have been made over the years, is how so many people valued their own reputations and the reputations of their colleagues over the truth.

You see the number of people involved in changing statements, bullying witnesses, promoting the false agenda and spreading it across multiple media platforms...how did those cowardly people sleep at night? You've got families grieving, survivors traumatised forever by the events and instead of letting the truth come out and the repercussions follow, they spent years prolonging that agony. People were more worried about losing their jobs than letting a mother mourn her son in peace.

Heartbreaking. I hope those that have had to fight for so long are finally able to get some sense of relief.
Maybe the group, led by your leadership, will see these drafts as PR functions and brilliant use of humor

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Re: Documentary: Hillsborough: Smears, Survivors & The Search For Truth, 12th Dec
« Reply #244 on: December 14, 2016, 08:47:56 am »
The thing that strikes me most, watching this programme on top of the others that have been made over the years, is how so many people valued their own reputations and the reputations of their colleagues over the truth.

What struck me is Kevin, who went on to become a police officer, said of the police cover-up, they were 'very very good at it'.

They must have been well practiced at it. There was obviously a culture in those forces of fabrication and lying.
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Re: Documentary: Hillsborough: Smears, Survivors & The Search For Truth, 12th Dec
« Reply #245 on: December 14, 2016, 10:33:07 am »
What struck me is Kevin, who went on to become a police officer, said of the police cover-up, they were 'very very good at it'.

They must have been well practiced at it. There was obviously a culture in those forces of fabrication and lying.

Think anyone at Orgreave will testify to that. 

Offline Branno

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Re: Documentary: Hillsborough: Smears, Survivors & The Search For Truth, 12th Dec
« Reply #246 on: December 14, 2016, 11:26:11 am »
"mixed"....."pissed"

Just look at your qwerty keyboard and explain how that "typo" happened !!!
"I know this is a sad occasion but I think that Dixie would be amazed to know that even in death he could draw a bigger crowd than Everton can on a Saturday afternoon"......Bill Shankly

Offline Dubred

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Re: Documentary: Hillsborough: Smears, Survivors & The Search For Truth, 12th Dec
« Reply #247 on: December 14, 2016, 11:32:32 am »
So sad.  But not shocking anymore which is probably even more tragic.

So much deceit and evil has come out of this investigation over the years it almost numbs when you hear more jaw dropping revelations.

Its really really hard to have any faith whatsoever in the legal system of this country and the people who you think are supposed to look out for you.

Hillsborough without doubt is just the tip of the iceberg.

Offline whiteboots

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Re: Documentary: Hillsborough: Smears, Survivors & The Search For Truth, 12th Dec
« Reply #248 on: December 14, 2016, 11:38:06 am »
This is what I often think about. It would be a hugely complex thing to write about here, but there must have been a simple escape route that they felt they could go down. A dirty and horrendous one, but one that was taken very quickly and with some ease it seems. How come?

As always about Hillsborough, the documentary was a difficult watch, and I wasn't there. Well made, well researched and well presented. I couldn't help wondering about what it must have felt like to see that the instigator of that rumour was directly related to the police involved. I tried to imagine the emotions but I reckon I was a good few miles off.

What I could relate to tho, was the inherent power of 'idle chit chat' in a gentleman's club type situation between a police officer and a politician. I understood that very well. Gossip is a medium that can very soon translate as fact, and they were very good at doing that. Still asking myself 'why?' tho.
The lies surrounding Hillsborough were far more insidious than simply being false. For if a lie is to be accepted, it has  to ring true. It is that manipulation which I think is the most upsetting.

Some fans there were drunk. Some had no tickets. Some drunks will urinate openly. None of this had anything to do with the disaster- unless you weave fact with fiction, which was so maliciously done.

We share a fascination with “what if”? What if the Police had simply told the truth? What if the Police had simply said that a crush developed outside the turnstiles so severe that the risk of not opening the gates was as great as if they had, and the danger was so great and unexpected that there was insufficient time to block access to the central tunnel?

I think that an enquiry would have found that the first bit was true, but that those charged with managing the event should have had measures in place to deal with overcrowding inside and were professionally negligent, but not criminally negligent insofar as they should have anticipated the deaths that arose ( gates had been routinely opened at Hillsborough, and other grounds, before, with and without defensive measures, without injury or incident).

Very quickly the focus would have moved to crowd safety. Why did Sheff Wed fence and pen the terracing without reviewing capacity? Why were planned extra turnstiles not installed? Why were the crush barriers below regulation height? Who allowed the safety certificate to lapse at the club? Whose job was it to ensure that there was a valid safety certificate? (The  Club Secretary) Who at the licensing authority allowed the safety certificate to lapse without serving an enforcement notice? Who at the Council knew that the certificate had lapsed? Who at the league, and FA, was responsible for ensuring that all participating members grounds had valid  safety certificates? Who knew that Sheff Wed didn’t have one? What were the FA’s criteria for staging semi finals at grounds, let alone cup ties?

Why , with the above questions unanswered, has the Chairman of Sheff Wed appointed just after the disaster, Dave Richards, gone on to be chairman of the FA Premier League, member of the Football Association (FA)'s Board, chairman of the FA's international committee, president of the European Professional Football Leagues organisation, chairman of UEFA's Professional Football Committee ?

Just the battle to establish the truth has left so many questions unanswered, and let so many people of the hook.




Offline gatcliffe

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Re: Documentary: Hillsborough: Smears, Survivors & The Search For Truth, 12th Dec
« Reply #249 on: December 14, 2016, 11:42:13 am »
The lies surrounding Hillsborough were far more insidious than simply being false. For if a lie is to be accepted, it has  to ring true. It is that manipulation which I think is the most upsetting.

Some fans there were drunk. Some had no tickets. Some drunks will urinate openly. None of this had anything to do with the disaster- unless you weave fact with fiction, which was so maliciously done.

We share a fascination with “what if”? What if the Police had simply told the truth? What if the Police had simply said that a crush developed outside the turnstiles so severe that the risk of not opening the gates was as great as if they had, and the danger was so great and unexpected that there was insufficient time to block access to the central tunnel?

I think that an enquiry would have found that the first bit was true, but that those charged with managing the event should have had measures in place to deal with overcrowding inside and were professionally negligent, but not criminally negligent insofar as they should have anticipated the deaths that arose ( gates had been routinely opened at Hillsborough, and other grounds, before, with and without defensive measures, without injury or incident).

Very quickly the focus would have moved to crowd safety. Why did Sheff Wed fence and pen the terracing without reviewing capacity? Why were planned extra turnstiles not installed? Why were the crush barriers below regulation height? Who allowed the safety certificate to lapse at the club? Whose job was it to ensure that there was a valid safety certificate? (The  Club Secretary) Who at the licensing authority allowed the safety certificate to lapse without serving an enforcement notice? Who at the Council knew that the certificate had lapsed? Who at the league, and FA, was responsible for ensuring that all participating members grounds had valid  safety certificates? Who knew that Sheff Wed didn’t have one? What were the FA’s criteria for staging semi finals at grounds, let alone cup ties?

Why , with the above questions unanswered, has the Chairman of Sheff Wed appointed just after the disaster, Dave Richards, gone on to be chairman of the FA Premier League, member of the Football Association (FA)'s Board, chairman of the FA's international committee, president of the European Professional Football Leagues organisation, chairman of UEFA's Professional Football Committee ?

Just the battle to establish the truth has left so many questions unanswered, and let so many people of the hook.



Some really excellent points  Whiteboots.
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Re: Documentary: Hillsborough: Smears, Survivors & The Search For Truth, 12th Dec
« Reply #250 on: December 14, 2016, 12:06:26 pm »
Some really excellent points  Whiteboots.

Absolutely. Anyone with any interest in football should read Adrian Tempany's book 'And The Sun Shines Now', which provides so much context for what happened to football after Hillsborough. When those outcomes are considered in the light of the documentary it certainly casts a very dark shadow over certain individuals and organisations. The documentary focused on SYP and WMP. The behaviours of SWFC, SCC, the FA have barely been examined, but their time will come.

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Re: Documentary: Hillsborough: Smears, Survivors & The Search For Truth, 12th Dec
« Reply #251 on: December 14, 2016, 01:08:55 pm »
. The behaviours of SWFC, SCC, the FA have barely been examined, but their time will come.
I certainly hope so, how did they have a license to hold such an event? iirc the stadium safety certificate had lapsed prior to the game.
So who is responsible for that? SWFC?  the Council? the FA?

I left Liverpool 42 years ago,but i feel  immense pride when i see the battle that the Survivors/families undertook to bring this to light.
And i hope that eventually, everyone affected, will find peace and solace and those lying twats, the ones who portrayed the victims as drunken louts, get what they deserve
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Offline Branno

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Re: Documentary: Hillsborough: Smears, Survivors & The Search For Truth, 12th Dec
« Reply #252 on: December 14, 2016, 02:52:47 pm »
First time since of end of April Ive allowed myself to get "involved" with this....glad I did yet wish I hadn't ! Fuck nothing should surprise and yet it does
"I know this is a sad occasion but I think that Dixie would be amazed to know that even in death he could draw a bigger crowd than Everton can on a Saturday afternoon"......Bill Shankly

Offline oldfordie

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Re: Documentary: Hillsborough: Smears, Survivors & The Search For Truth, 12th Dec
« Reply #253 on: December 14, 2016, 07:01:26 pm »
The lies surrounding Hillsborough were far more insidious than simply being false. For if a lie is to be accepted, it has  to ring true. It is that manipulation which I think is the most upsetting.

Some fans there were drunk. Some had no tickets. Some drunks will urinate openly. None of this had anything to do with the disaster- unless you weave fact with fiction, which was so maliciously done.

We share a fascination with “what if”? What if the Police had simply told the truth? What if the Police had simply said that a crush developed outside the turnstiles so severe that the risk of not opening the gates was as great as if they had, and the danger was so great and unexpected that there was insufficient time to block access to the central tunnel?

I think that an enquiry would have found that the first bit was true, but that those charged with managing the event should have had measures in place to deal with overcrowding inside and were professionally negligent, but not criminally negligent insofar as they should have anticipated the deaths that arose ( gates had been routinely opened at Hillsborough, and other grounds, before, with and without defensive measures, without injury or incident).

Very quickly the focus would have moved to crowd safety. Why did Sheff Wed fence and pen the terracing without reviewing capacity? Why were planned extra turnstiles not installed? Why were the crush barriers below regulation height? Who allowed the safety certificate to lapse at the club? Whose job was it to ensure that there was a valid safety certificate? (The  Club Secretary) Who at the licensing authority allowed the safety certificate to lapse without serving an enforcement notice? Who at the Council knew that the certificate had lapsed? Who at the league, and FA, was responsible for ensuring that all participating members grounds had valid  safety certificates? Who knew that Sheff Wed didn’t have one? What were the FA’s criteria for staging semi finals at grounds, let alone cup ties?

Why , with the above questions unanswered, has the Chairman of Sheff Wed appointed just after the disaster, Dave Richards, gone on to be chairman of the FA Premier League, member of the Football Association (FA)'s Board, chairman of the FA's international committee, president of the European Professional Football Leagues organisation, chairman of UEFA's Professional Football Committee ?

Just the battle to establish the truth has left so many questions unanswered, and let so many people of the hook.
The other question I wondered about was why were they so incompetent. why were so may of SYP officers at that time so pathetic at doing their jobs.
I think the cover up tells us the answers, many of those senior officers weren't promoted due to ability, they were promoted because they understood the culture of SYP under Peter Wright.
The result is the force is run by incompetent arrogant know alls who think they are the bees knees but they haven't got a clue what their doing. the only quality they have that SYP top brass want is they wont drop other senior officers in the s..
A senior SYP officer said something years ago that I thought showed the mindset of SYP those days, something on the lines of mistakes will be made and we shouldn't be hammered for them.
I think that can be taken a step further, they know they made mistakes but they convince themselves that mistakes are inevitable so they have a right to squirm out of any criticism period.
I look at the list of faults and more can be added, they were nothing more than the Cowboy builders of the police force.
« Last Edit: December 14, 2016, 07:04:42 pm by oldfordie »
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Offline Something Worse

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Re: Documentary: Hillsborough: Smears, Survivors & The Search For Truth, 12th Dec
« Reply #254 on: December 15, 2016, 03:11:22 am »
What struck me is Kevin, who went on to become a police officer, said of the police cover-up, they were 'very very good at it'.

They must have been well practiced at it. There was obviously a culture in those forces of fabrication and lying.

It beggars belief. You're supposed to trust these people with your safety and their first inclination is to circle the wagons and abandon all sense of personal responsibility.
Maybe the group, led by your leadership, will see these drafts as PR functions and brilliant use of humor

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Offline phil236849

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Re: Documentary: Hillsborough: Smears, Survivors & The Search For Truth, 12th Dec
« Reply #255 on: December 15, 2016, 12:59:36 pm »
The lies surrounding Hillsborough were far more insidious than simply being false. For if a lie is to be accepted, it has  to ring true. It is that manipulation which I think is the most upsetting.

Some fans there were drunk. Some had no tickets. Some drunks will urinate openly. None of this had anything to do with the disaster- unless you weave fact with fiction, which was so maliciously done.

We share a fascination with “what if”? What if the Police had simply told the truth? What if the Police had simply said that a crush developed outside the turnstiles so severe that the risk of not opening the gates was as great as if they had, and the danger was so great and unexpected that there was insufficient time to block access to the central tunnel?

I think that an enquiry would have found that the first bit was true, but that those charged with managing the event should have had measures in place to deal with overcrowding inside and were professionally negligent, but not criminally negligent insofar as they should have anticipated the deaths that arose ( gates had been routinely opened at Hillsborough, and other grounds, before, with and without defensive measures, without injury or incident).

Very quickly the focus would have moved to crowd safety. Why did Sheff Wed fence and pen the terracing without reviewing capacity? Why were planned extra turnstiles not installed? Why were the crush barriers below regulation height? Who allowed the safety certificate to lapse at the club? Whose job was it to ensure that there was a valid safety certificate? (The  Club Secretary) Who at the licensing authority allowed the safety certificate to lapse without serving an enforcement notice? Who at the Council knew that the certificate had lapsed? Who at the league, and FA, was responsible for ensuring that all participating members grounds had valid  safety certificates? Who knew that Sheff Wed didn’t have one? What were the FA’s criteria for staging semi finals at grounds, let alone cup ties?

Why , with the above questions unanswered, has the Chairman of Sheff Wed appointed just after the disaster, Dave Richards, gone on to be chairman of the FA Premier League, member of the Football Association (FA)'s Board, chairman of the FA's international committee, president of the European Professional Football Leagues organisation, chairman of UEFA's Professional Football Committee ?

Just the battle to establish the truth has left so many questions unanswered, and let so many people of the hook.

Excellent. I would add, why has the media not shone the light? It must do now, as the Ipcc or whatever it is concludes its investigation, to avoid playing a continuing part in the cover up





Offline saoirse08

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Re: Documentary: Hillsborough: Smears, Survivors & The Search For Truth, 12th Dec
« Reply #256 on: December 15, 2016, 02:10:44 pm »
The lies surrounding Hillsborough were far more insidious than simply being false. For if a lie is to be accepted, it has  to ring true. It is that manipulation which I think is the most upsetting.

Some fans there were drunk. Some had no tickets. Some drunks will urinate openly. None of this had anything to do with the disaster- unless you weave fact with fiction, which was so maliciously done.

We share a fascination with “what if”? What if the Police had simply told the truth? What if the Police had simply said that a crush developed outside the turnstiles so severe that the risk of not opening the gates was as great as if they had, and the danger was so great and unexpected that there was insufficient time to block access to the central tunnel?

I think that an enquiry would have found that the first bit was true, but that those charged with managing the event should have had measures in place to deal with overcrowding inside and were professionally negligent, but not criminally negligent insofar as they should have anticipated the deaths that arose ( gates had been routinely opened at Hillsborough, and other grounds, before, with and without defensive measures, without injury or incident).

Very quickly the focus would have moved to crowd safety. Why did Sheff Wed fence and pen the terracing without reviewing capacity? Why were planned extra turnstiles not installed? Why were the crush barriers below regulation height? Who allowed the safety certificate to lapse at the club? Whose job was it to ensure that there was a valid safety certificate? (The  Club Secretary) Who at the licensing authority allowed the safety certificate to lapse without serving an enforcement notice? Who at the Council knew that the certificate had lapsed? Who at the league, and FA, was responsible for ensuring that all participating members grounds had valid  safety certificates? Who knew that Sheff Wed didn’t have one? What were the FA’s criteria for staging semi finals at grounds, let alone cup ties?

Why , with the above questions unanswered, has the Chairman of Sheff Wed appointed just after the disaster, Dave Richards, gone on to be chairman of the FA Premier League, member of the Football Association (FA)'s Board, chairman of the FA's international committee, president of the European Professional Football Leagues organisation, chairman of UEFA's Professional Football Committee ?

Just the battle to establish the truth has left so many questions unanswered, and let so many people of the hook.



Great post. Can't add anything to that. Superb job by all involved. A big thank you to Peter Marshall, Tenacious Kennedy and the other Rawkites involved.
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Offline Gods_Left_Boot

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Re: Documentary: Hillsborough: Smears, Survivors & The Search For Truth, 12th Dec
« Reply #257 on: December 15, 2016, 07:08:17 pm »
It's up on Youtube now too :

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/phEblvBPpvo" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/phEblvBPpvo</a>

(Hope you don't mind me posting that too Harinder after you went to the trouble of recording it)

Thanks a lot for posting this.
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Re: Documentary: Hillsborough: Smears, Survivors & The Search For Truth, 12th Dec
« Reply #258 on: December 16, 2016, 10:26:10 am »
IPCC saying that cop didn't lie deliberately? How does that work? Do we need to put the objectivness of the IPCC into question? First that "mixed" to "pissed" being a typo, then this.

Remove post if I overstepped the line here.
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Re: Documentary: Hillsborough: Smears, Survivors & The Search For Truth, 12th Dec
« Reply #259 on: December 16, 2016, 11:52:06 am »
IPCC saying that cop didn't lie deliberately? How does that work? Do we need to put the objectivness of the IPCC into question? First that "mixed" to "pissed" being a typo, then this.

Remove post if I overstepped the line here.

I'm with you there. I hope they don't let these bastards get away with this.
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Re: Documentary: Hillsborough: Smears, Survivors & The Search For Truth, 12th Dec
« Reply #260 on: December 16, 2016, 04:57:09 pm »
IPCC saying that cop didn't lie deliberately? How does that work? Do we need to put the objectivness of the IPCC into question? First that "mixed" to "pissed" being a typo, then this.

Remove post if I overstepped the line here.
Precisely. I've no confidence in the IPCC at all. After making earlier enquiries, in the run-up to the new inquests, in November 2013 I received a phone call from the IPCC giving me information about supplying 'evidence' via the IPCC to the new inquests, including any further statement I wished to make. They told me how to obtain my original police statements, which I had never seen. When I applied for these statements and received copies back, there were several sections with lines stricken through and comments to the effect, 'police action criticised'....or....'adverse comment' over written at these points. There were also sections which to me appeared to be missing - though due to the time lapse, it was difficult to recall exactly what was said.
When I responded to the IPCC in writing with a further statement, including explaining about how my original statement had been 'marked', I got no response. I never heard from the IPCC again and was not called to the inquests. Although I understand that they may have felt that what I told them was 'irrelevant' - to me it was relevant.
This documentary was a really good programme and has exposed further evidence of cover up, so well done to Peter Marshall, Tenacious etc - but, whether the IPCC take it up or not is another matter.........I have my doubts.
 

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Re: Documentary: Hillsborough: Smears, Survivors & The Search For Truth, 12th Dec
« Reply #261 on: December 16, 2016, 05:23:05 pm »
Precisely. I've no confidence in the IPCC at all. After making earlier enquiries, in the run-up to the new inquests, in November 2013 I received a phone call from the IPCC giving me information about supplying 'evidence' via the IPCC to the new inquests, including any further statement I wished to make. They told me how to obtain my original police statements, which I had never seen. When I applied for these statements and received copies back, there were several sections with lines stricken through and comments to the effect, 'police action criticised'....or....'adverse comment' over written at these points. There were also sections which to me appeared to be missing - though due to the time lapse, it was difficult to recall exactly what was said.
When I responded to the IPCC in writing with a further statement, including explaining about how my original statement had been 'marked', I got no response. I never heard from the IPCC again and was not called to the inquests. Although I understand that they may have felt that what I told them was 'irrelevant' - to me it was relevant.
This documentary was a really good programme and has exposed further evidence of cover up, so well done to Peter Marshall, Tenacious etc - but, whether the IPCC take it up or not is another matter.........I have my doubts.

My advice would be to ask them very clearly "Are you treating my statement as a complaint?  If not, I wish to make it a formal complaint and will be interviewed if required".   Then there is no ambiguity as to whether you formally complained and they are duty bound to investigate. 

Choice of witnesses at the inquests was not with the IPCC so on that count,  (I felt the same) you can probably cut them slackmon that aspect.

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Re: Documentary: Hillsborough: Smears, Survivors & The Search For Truth, 12th Dec
« Reply #262 on: December 16, 2016, 05:26:39 pm »
"Adverse comment" was scrawled all over my statement too.  Seemed back in '89 someone was assessing our statements, for what purpose we can make our own judgements.  Speaking with other survivors I am now aware this was not unusual.   


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Re: Documentary: Hillsborough: Smears, Survivors & The Search For Truth, 12th Dec
« Reply #263 on: December 17, 2016, 10:32:51 am »
Here's what worried me most of all in the whole documentary - which was a harrowing but well researched piece and hats off to all involved.

There was plenty more in there than previously about how deep and well organised the cover up was. But it was the IPCC's response to the change in the referee's statement. As far as I see it it is impossible to irrefutably prove that this was or wasn't a genuine transcription error. But surely the way to handle that is to look at how many statements in total were altered to eliminate criticism of the police or add criticism to the fans and then when that has all been put together all instances of changed or omitted statements are treated the same - as deliberate or accidental. There may be the odd genuine transcription error but it is surely about the pattern and those responsible for it.

Was always a little wary of both the IPCC and the DPP and this just tells me that we need to keep up the pressure so they know that we aren't going away.
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Re: Documentary: Hillsborough: Smears, Survivors & The Search For Truth, 12th Dec
« Reply #265 on: December 17, 2016, 10:21:55 pm »
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/dec/15/met-chief-verdict-is-third-blow-to-hillsborough-families-faith-in-ipcc?CMP=share_btn_tw

How is this even passing under the radar? Absolutely sickening.

Shocking.

Also find it strange that no newspaper has really pressed "Sir" Dave Richards to comment on the documentary shown last Monday.
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Re: Documentary: Hillsborough: Smears, Survivors & The Search For Truth, 12th Dec
« Reply #266 on: December 17, 2016, 10:30:14 pm »
https://www.theguardian.com/uk-news/2016/dec/15/met-chief-verdict-is-third-blow-to-hillsborough-families-faith-in-ipcc?CMP=share_btn_tw

How is this even passing under the radar? Absolutely sickening.

Yep it's fucking horrendous. The cover up still goes on and on. "Independent" indeed. Covering up cover ups since their existence.

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Re: Documentary: Hillsborough: Smears, Survivors & The Search For Truth, 12th Dec
« Reply #267 on: December 18, 2016, 06:07:14 am »
Well in Tenacious.

You are an absolute legend and we all appreciate what you have done for the justice campaign. Hold your head up and be proud.
Justice for Anne Williams. Justice for the 97. Justice for the Survivors.

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Re: Documentary: Hillsborough: Smears, Survivors & The Search For Truth, 12th Dec
« Reply #268 on: December 18, 2016, 02:20:49 pm »
My advice would be to ask them very clearly "Are you treating my statement as a complaint?  If not, I wish to make it a formal complaint and will be interviewed if required".   Then there is no ambiguity as to whether you formally complained and they are duty bound to investigate. 

Choice of witnesses at the inquests was not with the IPCC so on that count,  (I felt the same) you can probably cut them slackmon that aspect.
I stand by what I said in my earlier post - I have no confidence whatsoever in the IPCC conducting a thorough examination of all the evidence against those responsible for the deaths and unlawful killing of 96 of our fellow Reds or those implicated in the police cover up that followed and bringing them to justice. The November issue of the IPCC 'Hillsborough Blog' clearly shows this to be the case.

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Re: Documentary: Hillsborough: Smears, Survivors & The Search For Truth, 12th Dec
« Reply #269 on: December 18, 2016, 06:57:19 pm »
Maybe it is time to let the establishment know that if they let the 96 down yet again then the consequences will be exactly the same. All it will do is harden our resolve and make us even more determined to garner the justice we have sought for over a quarter of a century.

"Ohhh-kayyy"

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Last chance to see Peter Marshall's documentary on ITV Hub is tonight

http://www.itv.com/hub/exposure-hillsborough/2a4698a0001

Do share if you can

https://twitter.com/pmarshallnews/status/818887472688037889
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Bump.
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Hillsborough suspect files passed to Crown Prosecution Service

Files on 23 people and organisations involved in the 1989 Hillsborough disaster have been passed to the Crown Prosecution Service.

An inquests jury concluded last April that the 96 victims of the FA Cup semi-final tragedy were unlawfully killed.

The jury found match the commander, Ch Supt David Duckenfield, responsible for manslaughter by gross negligence.

Prosecutors will now decide whether to bring criminal charges against the unnamed 23.

The announcement follows the conclusion of two criminal investigations that were ordered in 2012.

Operation Resolve examined events up to and including the day of the disaster, including the police planning and preparation, ground design and the emergency response, while the Independent Police Complaints Commission (IPCC) investigation looked into allegations of a cover-up in the days and weeks that followed.

Fifteen of the 23 suspects relate to Operation Resolve and eight to the IPPC investigation, but the names of individuals and organisations named in the files passed to prosecutors have not been made public.

Some of those previously named as suspects have died and cannot therefore be prosecuted.
Charges being considered include:

    Gross negligence manslaughter
    Perverting the course of justice
    Misconduct in a public office
    Offences under the Safety at Sports Grounds Act and the Health and Safety at Work Act
    Misconduct in a public office
    Perverting the course of justice
    Conspiring to pervert the course of justice

The CPS will also consider "any other relevant offences" on the evidence presented by both investigation teams, the IPCC said.

More than 170 allegations of police misconduct continue to be investigated by both the IPCC and Operation Resolve.

Families of those who died in the Sheffield tragedy have campaigned for more than 25 years to have individuals or public bodies held to account.

Giving evidence at the Hillsborough Inquests, former South Yorkshire Ch Supt Duckenfield accepted his failure to close a tunnel was the "direct cause of the deaths of 96 people".

In his recent book, former chief constable Sir Norman Bettison, revealed that he was being treated as a suspect by the IPCC in mid-2015.

At the inquests, he said he was not part of a black propaganda unit set up to blame Liverpool fans.

It is not known whether his name has been put forward for a charging decision.

The IPCC probe is the biggest criminal investigation into alleged police misconduct ever conducted in England and Wales.

It's understood the CPS may take up to six months to consider all the evidence.

Analysis by Lindsey Prosser, BBC North West Tonight

For years, the friends and families of the 96 Hillsborough victims have campaigned for individuals and corporate organisations to be held accountable.

In 1990, Lord Justice Taylor's report following the public inquiry into the disaster stated that "a failure of police control" was the main cause.

But the Director of Public Prosecutions in England and Wales decided there was no justification to bring any prosecutions.

A year later, after accidental death verdicts were recorded, the families vowed to campaign for fresh inquests.

In 1997, after reviewing fresh evidence, Lord Justice Stuart-Smith said there was no such justification for a new inquiry.

The families' quest for justice never ceased and was boosted in 2009 when the government agreed that all evidence relating to Hillsborough must be disclosed by all organisations involved.

The results were made public by the Hillsborough Independent Panel in 2012, paving the way for the fresh inquests in the spring of 2014.

Last year the inquest jury concluded that the 96 fans had been unlawfully killed and exonerated fans of any blame.

The HIP Report also led to the Operation Resolve and Independent Police Complaints Commission investigations.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-england-merseyside-38582111?ns_mchannel=social&ns_campaign=bbc_breaking&ns_source=twitter&ns_linkname=news_central
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Offline The Tenacious Kennedy

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Re: Documentary: Hillsborough: Smears, Survivors & The Search For Truth, 12th Dec
« Reply #273 on: December 12, 2017, 10:52:26 am »
The programme was broadcast a year ago today, so here is an update (within the confines of what I say given the forthcoming trials):

- The CPS are still reviewing the files on the allegations that South Yorkshire Police fabricated evidence  that a police horse was supposedly burnt by fans. We hope to hear in the New Year if charges will be pursued against SYP officers and a civilian

-  In our research, we have significantly developed one of the themes in the programme around the false allegations in The Sun, and have made a number of what we believe to be significant finds.  We'll probably have to wait until after the trials to elaborate further

- CPS are still considering charges against West Midlands Police officers

You can watch the documentary again at:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=phEblvBPpvo

Please take care with any comments
« Last Edit: December 12, 2017, 01:16:29 pm by The Tenacious Kennedy »
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Re: Documentary: Hillsborough: Smears, Survivors & The Search For Truth, 12th Dec
« Reply #274 on: December 13, 2017, 02:12:40 am »
You can watch the documentary again at:

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=phEblvBPpvo

Please take care with any comments

Cheers for re-posting/bumping this, as I'd missed it the first time around.
As you noted, taking care with comments... but hopefully it's alright to say that, even after having watched so much about this, watching through that still required a couple of composure breaks.

Offline The Tenacious Kennedy

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Re: Documentary: Hillsborough: Smears, Survivors & The Search For Truth, 12th Dec
« Reply #275 on: December 16, 2017, 10:28:42 am »
The CPS decision around the horse case was announced yesterday

They have made the decision not to prosecute the officer and the farrier

David Conn has written about it in the Guardian

"The CPS concluded there was evidence to suggest that a former mounted South Yorkshire police constable, David Scott, had given an untrue account when he claimed his horse appeared singed afterwards, but that there was not enough evidence to prove to a criminal standard that his statements were fabricated.


The evidence was sufficient, the CPS said, to justify a criminal charge against a farrier who made a statement at the time to support Scott in a police disciplinary investigation held into supporters’ complaints that Scott had lashed out and hit people trapped in the crush. Scott did not face any action over those claims."


https://www.theguardian.com/football/2017/dec/15/hillsborough-slur-about-fans-burning-police-horse-false-says-cps?CMP=share_btn_tw



You can also see the story behind this case at 16 mins 53 secs on this ITV documentary by Peter Marshall

https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=phEblvBPpvo

I am the complainant in this case, and I am currently considering options, including my right to ask for a CPS review

But if anyone thinks we'll just leave this here, then think again...
« Last Edit: December 16, 2017, 10:31:09 am by The Tenacious Kennedy »
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Offline Franny

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Re: Documentary: Hillsborough: Smears, Survivors & The Search For Truth, 12th Dec
« Reply #276 on: December 16, 2017, 11:50:06 am »
Disgraceful decision not to prosecute, claiming there was no identifiable victim as part of the reason just beggars belief. The Guardian article also states part of the reason for not charging the Farrier was his "good character" so I assume he must have admitted his corrupt behaviour as he cant be of good character if he is still lying. If so how can it be in the public interest, not to prosecute someone who fabricated evidence as part of the biggest cover up in British legal history, remember this was not seen as an isolated incident on the day, this evidence was sent to Taylor and formed part of his report, initially invented to get Scott off the assault charge then used to paint the picture of the uncontrollable drunken mob outside. A couple of other concerns I have regarding the identifiable victim claim, didn't the original complainant of the assault, therefore a victim, appear in the recent documentary, also are they claiming someone has to have been treated to the detriment because of their perversion of justice for a prosecution to succeed. This perversion of justice wasn't about unfairly prosecuting an innocent person it was about preventing a guilty copper being prosecuted at the height of their smear campaign. Finally the movement of the height of the bar that needs to be reached to pass the evidential test is a disgrace. There is a clear difference in height when it comes to prosecuting police officers and members of the public, (and an even lower one for us remember the second part of question 7 at the inquests, may have contributed) that needs challenging. Good luck with what ever option you decide to take TK, your work on this has been incredible and deserves a just outcome.

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Re: Documentary: Hillsborough: Smears, Survivors & The Search For Truth, 12th Dec
« Reply #277 on: December 19, 2017, 10:19:56 am »
Agree with what Franny said. TTK and others have put many, many hours into this and the Documentary and we owe them a deal of gratitude. The CPS decision is a setback that everyone on this forum should be aware of.
Obviously, there is a gagging order in place due to criminal cases, but I suggest if anyone wants to know more they read David Conn’s article and watch the documentary.
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Re: Documentary: Hillsborough: Smears, Survivors & The Search For Truth, 12th Dec
« Reply #278 on: December 19, 2017, 01:32:27 pm »
I am utterly baffled by the decision. The statement at the time was quite clear and the implications of the original statement are also quite clear. It played into the overarching narrative so all involved are the victim. It is quite clearly in the public interest as well. I won`t say anymore because I don`t want to start ranting about things that remain ongoing.
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The programme has now gone back up on YouTube, following the end of legal proceedings

See https://twitter.com/pmarshallnews/status/1410643362861006850?s=21

The early end of the trials took us by surprise, but we will be putting out other material that we found but couldn’t include in the programme for various reasons

We’re probably looking at another 6 months before the IPCC/ IOPC report comes out, nearly a decade after the Hillsborough Independent Panel reported in September 2012
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