Author Topic: Round Table Liverpool 1-2 Chelsea  (Read 13348 times)

Offline Hinesy

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Round Table Liverpool 1-2 Chelsea
« on: November 8, 2014, 02:41:58 pm »
We're getting better, we lost this 2-0 last year...

How to buy a goal... Where do we start? The alarming consistent worry for me is the lack of quick movement from defence through midfield to attack. I know teams have learnt how to play us, I know we don't have Suarez dragging defenders away to cause movement, but there appears to be no understanding nor consistent planning in moving the ball quickly. We get stuck just out side of the half way line and if, as Chelsea did, teams press Skrtel and co at the back, the 'moving the ball from the back' ethos breaks down. Frustrating.

Chelsea, the same as ever. Quick on the break, ruthlessly classless and boring. But its been a while since we really tested any team, persistently and consistently.
What's the solution?
Annoyed of Anfield.
« Last Edit: November 8, 2014, 02:45:51 pm by Scrooge »
Yep.

Offline John C

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-2 Chelsea
« Reply #1 on: November 8, 2014, 05:16:02 pm »
In the post -ame thread someone listed all of the Chelsea players attributes, he was correct, but Chelsea didn't even need to display them at our ground today. Our poor passing and lack of creative threat made life easy for them.

We've replaced our fast-paced attacking prowess with a combination of poor passing and back passing football, which is incredibly infuriating.

Also, frustratingly, when we do finally move the ball forward to find Mario, he's invariably offside - we might as well just kick the ball to their defender. It must be so easy to play against Mario, defenders must just nod to each other take a step up and leave Mario asleep on his own.

Can was one of the few that deserves a positive mention and you can see there's more to come from him, alas it should have been Henderson that was subbed not him - indeed it didn't go down well as boo's reverberated around the ground.

I'm sure the coaching staff evaluate and review every game, but concerningly there is becoming an increasing list of so many aspects that need attention now.

Lallana is one of our best players - is it correct that he can't play more than 1 game a week or is that nonsense I've heard? We needed him on just to pose a threat to Chelsea.

The solution? Well some players need dropping and some need to show some fire in their stomachs. Without scapegoating the lad, Mario needs benching until we can try him with Sturridge, we've persevered and its not working. I'd play Sterling close to either Borini or Lambert with Lallana starting every game in whatever formation we play.

We need to work on using the space down the channels, its seems to be ignored constantly.

Perhaps BR even needs to review his policy of building from the back, Mignolet to Skrtel just puts pressure on us. We've been found out, managers & players know what we're going to do before the game even starts.

Overall we're off-form, but its endemic across the squad for some reason. A massive re-grouping to 'go again' is required. Maybe an international break will serve us well this time  :-\



« Last Edit: November 8, 2014, 05:17:53 pm by John C »

Offline Sat1

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-2 Chelsea
« Reply #2 on: November 9, 2014, 03:48:55 pm »
It's depressing. For anyone blaming the ref or thinking we were close need to understand Chelsea just like Madrid midweek had an extra gear or two in them if needed.

Disorganised is first thing that comes to mind. Our defence barely hold a line together and look all over the place. The gap between defence and midfield is so huge it makes the defence even worse than they are (if that's even possible) and the goalkeeper, apart from being a good shot stopper has nothing else to offer. Certainly not confidence.

There was a moment at the start of the second half when 5 of ours surrounded one of the players. It was so amateurish one pass took the whole lot out of the game. Then going forward we lack invention and movement is non existent.

We spent over a 100 million. Apart from Morena, I think every single signing is wrong. Lovren,Lallana, lambert, balotelli, there's 65 million (if figures mooted are correct) then we spent the rest on potential.

So looking at our current bunch and how they've performed all season we still need a top gk, CB, DM, and striker. Roughly 120 millions worth.

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-2 Chelsea
« Reply #3 on: November 9, 2014, 03:59:36 pm »
Our best centre mid and the most expensive player last summer hasn't been trusted to play with the big boys but the worst one, the one the manager seems to make an integral part of the team when he's not of the standard anymore and doesn't contribute to the team anymore (no penalties and a weak free kick in the Derby doesnt count) continues to be a liability, at least with balotelli the lad is trying hard but has zero service, can't say the same about gerrard

Offline lucas65

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-2 Chelsea
« Reply #4 on: November 9, 2014, 04:00:56 pm »
"Overall we're off-form, but its endemic across the squad for some reason."


For me, it's "the squad" that is part of the problem. We have bought too many "potential" players and diluted what we had, as in the way we played.
It also seem like a slap in the face for the youngsters coming through who are drilled in the same way as the first team.
I was made up to see Jack Dunn travel with the first team against Madrid but it would seem that Brendan would prefer to play one of his new signings than give him any game time.

We can only fit eleven on the pitch at once, so after coming so close last year, it would have made sense to spend the Suarez money on one or two "class" players and slowly bring through our kids.
Spurs did the same last year and it seems their best players this year are their youngsters.


Offline Banquo's Ghost

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-2 Chelsea
« Reply #5 on: November 9, 2014, 04:46:23 pm »
In isolation, the game was as expected. We were beaten by the best side in the league at present. I think it more useful to reflect on the season to date, for which this game represents a useful measure.

I’m strongly of the opinion that the concerns about our transfers and by extension, trying to apportion blame elsewhere than our manager is simply an expression of the current disappointments. We don’t like to blame our manager for failures and so seek some other target. I see no evidence that Brendan is not largely or entirely responsible for the players we have chosen. He has not indicated otherwise at any stage despite the immense pressure now on him, nor does anyone seriously doubt that core transfer targets such as Lallana and Lovren were his first choices (or at least, when the transfer window was open, few doubted this, whatever the current revisionism).

My view is that I am entirely supportive of the manager’s choices. I would argue that most are showing promise or actively doing well - individually, at least, and when played. Only Lovren and Balotelli can be considered suspect of the additions (in my view) and one can make an argument that both have their potential upsides. Lovren I will address later, and I must disclose that I have a personal bias against Mario and his way of behaving, but one can see he is not comfortable in the lone striker role and should surely only be judged once he has a consistent partner up front.

Moreno has been good and will certainly improve the weaknesses he occasionally shows. Can has been good and improves each match. Manquillo too. Markovic has been patchy but showed some of his possibilities against Madrid and is young yet. Lambert I can honestly offer little opinion on, as he has played so little. He has made a difference however, when coming on late in a number of matches.

No, for me the problem is not the personnel brought in, but the players we already have and more so: the way Brendan is setting up the team and his apparently inexplicable choices - including the apparent refusal to play certain players. No transfer committee, nor FSG, or any other scapegoats de jour choose the way we play and the players we chose to execute that plan. This is the manager’s choice.

So, I have spent some time to reflect on what Brendan is trying to do. It is a sadness of the game (as with politics) that a manager cannot spend some time talking reasonably to the fans about what his vision is, how he is trying to implement that plan and why he makes the choices he does. This invites the vacuum to be filled with speculation, blame-mongering and general panic. Or more usefully, support and faith. Football shares much with religion in this regard.

In regard to last season, it is widely accepted that we lost the title because of our defence. What is less often referenced is that we significantly over-achieved and this has created unprecedented pressures for what was probably a five year plan. I consider that the expected milestone was for us to improve in the second half of that season and have a strong run into fifth place. No-one could have foreseen United having quite that level of catastrophe. Additionally, no-one could have foreseen the victorious run we had and its shape. If we had lost or drawn a couple of the games in January or February (i.e. Chelsea and Palace had happened then) we would have had a fabulous, uplifting drive to fifth or fourth even, an accomplishment with which our fans would have been very satisfied. Getting second was always going to be a millstone, because we were and are a long way from being experienced enough to fulfil the expectations of doing it again or one better.

Getting back into the UEFA Cup would have given us European experience (both players and manager) and we would have built a squad to gain from that experience of playing several times a week. Since I believe that scouting is a long term investment of time and analysis rather than a swift punt decided the night before over a fag and a beer, I think that our targets over the summer reflected exactly this preparation. Most balanced commentators could see what we were trying to do in building the squad and enhancing depth and positions.

Getting the Champions League so soon put a lot of pressure on our decision making. We reacted well by trying to sign Sanchez but most of the manager’s targets were/are evolutionary rather than revolutionary. Fans also seem to think (at least from what I read here and elsewhere) that CL automatically brings vast wealth and a queue of world class talent demanding to be signed. The reality is that unless a club  is perceived as being a permanent presence, few players will be tempted. (United rather demonstrates this, as most players and their agents will have viewed last year as a blip, just as they viewed our success as the same. That’s why United has massively over-paid on wages - to ensure it was a blip, otherwise they are screwed). People get disgruntled that we are not buying ‘world class’ even though that is simply not going to happen with just the one season qualification.

So, Brendan rightly chooses to continue with the plan and develop the experience needed whilst in the Champions League. Unfortunately, the expectation of LFC fans in that competition is so massively higher than even the Premier League. Look at the reaction to an eminently sensible and pragmatic decision for the  game at the Bernabeu.

Back to the defence. I think Brendan has reacted to the poor defending we saw last season by going back to his beliefs and original plan - owning the ball as the best defence. From my observations, he strongly believes that competent possession of the ball and strong pressure, allied to a fluid and dangerous attack (which by its nature, keeps opposition teams honest and nervous) is a surer plan that also provides an attacking platform.  He also believes in playing from the back so as to control the game.

With the SAS, this game plan went by the board by and large, although we tried to implement it a fair number of games. We got away with a lot last season because during our run, teams got mesmerised and then terrified of our pace. However, it actually only took three months for the better managers to get wise to what we were doing and where our weaknesses lay. By the end, we were being found out (we all remember Chelsea and Palace, but do you remember the squeaky bum-fest that was the Norwich game?)

Without Suarez, we were not going to replicate last season, and it was not going to be sustainable to play that way even with him. That meant that Brendan has had to try and coach a more measured approach to try and develop a defensive capability commensurate with a league campaign - let alone the Champions League, where away goals are so crucial and teams so much more lethal - as well as preserving the fluid attack. Playing like last season in the CL would have seen us badly mauled, in my opinion. We might have scored, but in that competition, opponents would have scored more and we would have scored less.

I can therefore see why he would have bought Lovren and expected him to play alongside Sakho as our first choice defence. What scouting analysis cannot tell you is how the individual pieces, once combined, will react to the plan and the coaching in the real world. It is clear to me that one or other of those two has simply failed to adjust to Brendan’s coaching - in my view, more Lovren than Sakho. He seems to be suffering a serious crisis of confidence. In the light of this, Brendan has erred on the side of caution and kept Skrtel in the team. He has also stayed with using Gerrard as the defensive midfielder - perhaps through loyalty, more probably because after last season, virtually no manager could drop Gerrard. That time and decision is looming large however, as the centre backs are now so exposed, their confidence is plummeting or gone. I was struck by how Lucas brought not only composure against Madrid, but that his presence shored up Mignolet’s performance too - he came off his line, punched well and looked a different keeper. Toure too, brought the leadership needed and which Lovren was reputed to deliver. For this reason, I consider Lovren to be our only serious transfer mistake, and yet experience tells me that we should give a man a lot longer than 11 games to prove himself. In my view, Lovren’s confidence is shot and he would be best served being taken out of the firing line and coached to fulfil the partnership with Sakho that I believe was originally planned before returning.

The very poor and deeply frustrating playing of passes deep at the back is both symptomatic and diagnostic of our defence’s lack of belief. Brendan has to take responsibility for this - it is his plan. Yet Toure showed against Madrid that confident, forward driving play is possible. It is relatively high risk, but much less than the panicky messing around that pressure inevitably brings. Unfortunately, with Gerrard and Balotelli in the side we tend to give away possession too cheaply in the midfield - this just brings the ball straight back at us, which is not Brendan’s defensive plan at all. Most of our experienced players from last year are tending to lose possession easily. To compound this, they are also taking too long on the ball and not moving fluidly off the ball. This strikes me as both adjustment to new demands (i.e. less sure than they were that someone would be available and demanding the ball) and a conflict in the mind - high risk one touch pass or safety first possession? This takes time to coach and I see an improvement developing in both new and experienced players.

The one genuine omission from the transfer window was finding a player to add to our strike force. Sanchez was a good attempt, frustrated by the player’s desire to go to Arsenal. Remy showed good thinking, and Origi may well prove to be a good answer next year. As I noted earlier, Balotelli bemuses me as I don’t see how he fits anywhere, but I can see that as a partner to Sturridge, there may have been a strong argument. We’ll see shortly. Yet the interesting thing for me is that the self-professed experts have not suggested any names that we could have reasonable had a chance of signing. That probably means that there weren’t any, that Balotelli became a gamble worth taking and that we have may have some ideas in January when some teams are no longer in the CL and thus more willing to deal.

No, I’m generally comfortable with our signings and what I think Brendan is trying to do. What thoroughly baffled me was why he sticks with a clearly malfunctioning unit, despite clear evidence from games as to what will work and what will not. My reflection is that he may well believe (as many do) that stability is absolutely key to developing good habits and embedding his methods. There is some merit in that, as in trusting players to come good when they are being challenged by having to learn new methods. However, I think there has been enough time for players to step up, and some have been over-played in this attempt to preserve stability. Other members of the team have shown the ability to implement the plan and deserve a chance to keep their place.

I think Brendan is greatly in need of our support and understanding. His methods are not about instantaneous success, but embedded, long term thinking. Van Gaal’s United are showing that spending stupid money on transfers and wages is not a guarantee of anything. Pellegrini’s City are wobbling despite having spent a billion pounds and paying their players the GDP of several countries each week. Wenger’s Arsenal are inconsistent and missing key pieces despite strong revenues and 16 years continuous Champion’s League. None of them are that far ahead of us. Yet Koeman’s Southampton are showing excellence whilst their players are paid in shiny beads and conch shells so it’s clearly not about money alone as some maintain.

Brendan looked really dispirited in his post match interview after Chelsea. Hearing boos at Anfield may well have hit him hard. I believe he is working really hard to address the concerns we all feel - it’s just not quite coming together and he knows he has hugely difficult decisions to make. I am absolutely sure the players and him are not taking this lightly as some here like to suggest. This is when he truly becomes a Liverpool manager, forged in the fire of expectation and history. He’s got all the tools, all the self-belief needed. he needs, as we do, this time of hard knocks. Nothing of worth is gained easily or without pain. We sometimes forget how little experience he has of the very highest level. It will come, but can only do so through trial.

I used to have this quote by Thomas Paine in my signature and I think it still provides wisdom for this season:

“These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands by it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value.”

The real test for Brendan comes this next couple of weeks as he ponders the challenges ahead. Will players be chosen on merit? Will he address Gerrard’s decline? Will he adapt his formation and approach to the strengths we show with Daniel in the team?

I’m looking forward to finding out.
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Offline BrandoLFC

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-2 Chelsea
« Reply #6 on: November 9, 2014, 05:41:39 pm »
I'm really missing PoP's opinions on what is going on with the team as far as tactics as right now I'm just at a loss.  What is even our tactics right in trying to score a goal?  As far as I can tell our only tactic is to have Gerrard, Skrtel and Lovren pass between themselves and then eventually lose the ball.  I know that I'm stretching the truth but in almost all of our games this year once Sturridge went out that's all I can recall when thinking of a game.  I can't even say watching 3 losses in a row makes me feel worse as even before that even if we won or tied the game it was just boring and that's probably the most damning assessment anyone can give in regards to what Rodgers ethos currently stands for.

And that's really the crux of the issue here, the Liverpool of 13/14 did not conform to what Rodgers vision supposedly was when he become LFC manager.  What we saw was a young and brilliant manager taking the limited resources he had and setting a team to play to their strengths to form what was almost an unstoppable offensive juggernaut.  I think myself and a lot of others would be more understanding right now if we were playing similar football but due to Sturridge's absence we had to play Balotelli who it turns out is just not that good of a finisher.  Instead our chance creation is abysmal and we're left with what?  The hope that when Sturridge comes back that he'll singlehandedly dribble through an entire team and score goals galore?  Why would anyone believe that the complete lack of service to Balotelli or any striker we play, ignoring Balotelli's issues for a second, will somehow change when Sturridge returns?

Ignoring whether we should have won the game or not when comparing the respective teams, I'm just tired of seeing the same thing happen over and over and nothing being done to change it.  It's clear that how we are trying to play and the players we are playing is not working regardless of opposition.  If Rodgers believes he wasn't given the tools to compete then he needs to say so but considering for over a year now he's been saying he's in charge of players then obviously that would just belie belief.  So what we're left with is one of the largest outlays of funds in club history, no seeming offensive threat with only Gerrard and Sterling having more than 1 goal and league form that is bordering on relegation level.

Something needs to be done before this season is just a total write-off, unfortunately I'm no where near smart enough to know what it is so I'm left with the feeling that each week we're going to be stuck watching the same dross with no rhyme or reason why we're even in this position in the first place.

Offline Paul JH

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-2 Chelsea
« Reply #7 on: November 9, 2014, 05:51:11 pm »
I lost count of the amount of times we had Mignolet playing the ball out to Skrtel and Lovren, only for them to pass the parcel between each other, then pass it to one of our full backs, then back again, then to Gerrard, Henderson, back to Johnson, loses the ball. Then again, 5 minutes later, Mignolet to Lovren, gets caught wrong footed, ball goes to Chelsea. Then again ... etc etc. It was shocking tactics.

I'm all for Brendan asking this team to play out from the back, but we were incapable of getting to the half way line at times without giving the ball away.

Movement was non-existant, our two best players on the day were taken off (I see there is a booo thread about that, but however wrong booing is, fuck me, it was horrible to see). Can looked shattered, but I don't understand bringing on Joe Allen and Lambert to win a match.

Genuinely disheartened yesterday. All the good work we did last season has gone. Can anyone actually see this side improving enough to finish top 4? We've wasted a good chunk of £116m, on players who seem either incapable of effort or just not the type of player Brendan keeps going on about, this mythical 'character' to play for this club.

Watching that yesterday genuinely made me think has anyone ever seen a side come within one game of winning the title, and go backwards as much as we have? And it's not even about losing Suarez. It's about turning what was almost a title winning side into a mid-table one, and I keep asking, is Brendan 100% buying these players? Because if he is, his record with transfers just hasn't been good enough.

The sooner we go for established players, or players who might be more than just 'highly rated potential' the better. Out two signings of any note under Brendan, Sturridge and Coutinho, had both played at big clubs, and came in here all guns blazing. Rather than constantly think we can mould potential into greatness, we should be signing players who can come in and make an impact immediately, as watching Chelsea yesterday, they did just that when they made their signings.

And again, it's NOT a question of 'we can't afford wages Chelsea pay' etc, it's about buying players for US, that might not just be 20 year old lads who may or may not end up as world beaters, but players who can come in and make an impact on the side. Because Sturridge and Coutinho aside, I struggle a lot to think of any of the 21-22(?) players Brendan has 'signed' since he's been here that have come in and really, truly changed this side.

Just not good enough, as a club or transfer policy.

It's all very well signing players to play a system, but we don't even have that anymore, as was evident yesterday. It's just a hopeful mix and match. Takes Coutinho off so Sterling can drift wide? (as per Brendans words). Didn't work. Balotelli up front, again didn't work. Chelsea when they came forward passed the ball with purpose, and looked fast and sharp, exactly what we did last season. And while we've lost that completely, they had it yesterday. And it can't all be down to Suarez and Sturridge. The midfield at times was completely bypassed. We moan at the defence, but what protection do they get? They got barely any yesterday for me.

« Last Edit: November 9, 2014, 06:01:07 pm by Paul JH »
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Offline leivapool

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-2 Chelsea
« Reply #8 on: November 9, 2014, 06:02:49 pm »
Didn't our CB's only pass amongst themselves only TWICE in the away game to Madrid?  Maybe that's  a starting point?  With Lucas drpping deep and being able to keep the ball long enough to draw the Madrid players on to him before releasing the ball in to the player in space we made better progress.  Obviously forward quality and the quality of the  opposition limited clear cut attacking chances,  but the actual build up and transition from defence to midfireld and on was far cleaner and more progressive.
Rossiter absolutely bossed it tonight. Really believe he'll end up playing more games this season than Lucas.


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Offline Saul Goodman

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-2 Chelsea
« Reply #9 on: November 9, 2014, 06:06:17 pm »
@The Repeated Meme. Really enjoyed that post.
« Last Edit: November 9, 2014, 06:07:57 pm by Saul Goodman »

Offline Sammy5IsAlive

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-2 Chelsea
« Reply #10 on: November 9, 2014, 08:05:39 pm »
After the Newcastle game I was really concerned that the season could completely collapse in the two following games. We'd just played absolutely awful and were coming up against two of Europe's most in-form teams.

As it has turned out we have actually shown a good deal of improvement over the last two games. With a little extra attacking quality and calmness in the last 10/15 against Madrid and a little bit of luck against Chelsea either of the games could have finished a draw. From where we were last Saturday that is a positive.

It seems clear that last season's conclusion, and the subsequent loss of Suarez, has mentally affected the squad. Gerrard clearly believes that he has missed his one remaining chance and seems to have gone into one of the introspective crisis moments that we've seen him have occasionally over the years where he just doesn't look like he is enjoying his football and/or has faith in his teammates. Henderson and Sterling were leading players last season but are both showing their youth and inexperience this season in dealing with adversity. Sturridge is not only our most dangerous attacking players but one of the stronger and more positive personalities and he has been out injured most of the season. It is going to be a long process for a young squad to recover mentally from last season, but for me the last two games have shown the first green shoots of recovery.

As far as the game itself my brief conclusions would be
- Rodgers really has a big decision to make regarding Lovren, who looks completely lost in a red shirt at the moment. On paper we have some winnable matches coming up in which he could potentially pick up some form but for me his confidence is so low now that I think he needs taking out of the firing line. Toure clearly deserves a chance as well and I think it is important that when squad players perform well they are rewarded.
- Johnson showed desire, made a couple of good blocks and a couple of good runs with the ball but is still a defensive liability with his positioning and looks off the pace physically and mentally. Manquillo looks so much better that I can't really work out Rodgers' thinking with not playing him every game.
- Can and Coutinho both looked good and I imagine that they both came off for stamina reasons. Can showed enough to suggest that he definitely deserves the minutes he will require to recover from a disrupted pre-season and consistently complete 90. Coutinho has struggled to complete 90 mins since he came to us which is not a problem when he is not on song and/or his teammates are playing well. When he is our best player and still comes off after 70 it is very frustrating.
- It is very worrying that we spent c.£45m on Lalanna and Markovic and one of them didn't make the bench whilst the other remained unused. Surely they are better options than Allen and Lambert?
- Balotelli put in a decent shift and I think deserves to keep a starting place when Sturridge returns.

So yeah, we've got lots of problems but I think we all already knew that. The positive thing to take is that the last two games we have properly competed with two very good teams. However it is absolutely vital that we continue that improvement and start winning games after the international break. The league has been mental so far this season - we may have dropped into the bottom half but are only 4 points off fourth. But we can't rely on all the other teams around us to continue to drop points.

As far as Rodgers goes, a few rumblings on here about him being under pressure but I think that barring some really disastrous form the over-achievement from last year can balance out an underachievement this season. So long as we get some form of Europe this season he should get another after that to show that he can get us in the top 4 with a more settled and developed post-Suarez team.

   

Offline Sammy5IsAlive

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-2 Chelsea
« Reply #11 on: November 9, 2014, 08:45:43 pm »

Watching that yesterday genuinely made me think has anyone ever seen a side come within one game of winning the title, and go backwards as much as we have? And it's not even about losing Suarez. It's abouth turning what was almost a title winning side into a mid-table one, and I keep asking, is Brendan 100% buying these players? Because if he is, his record with transfers just hasn't been good enough.


Blackburn won it in 95 and then finished 6th the next season. Newcastle finished 2nd in 97 and then finished 13th the next season. If you'd like cheering up a little, don't forget that just last season United went from league winners to finishing 7th.

Obviously that doesn't make our current situation OK. But it is not uncommon for a team to surpass expectations one season, only to under-perform the next. Without the momentum and confidence generated by a good run, winning football matches suddenly seems far harder.

I think Rodgers' job relies on him managing this season so that the inevitable drop off in confidence and form from last season doesn't spiral out of control and ensures we finish somewhere respectable (i.e. top 7)  and that we then rebound from that back to competing for CL spots with the hope of getting another great run together to challenge for the league.

I agree re. transfers. I'm don't think the success of Sturridge and for the most part Coutinho outweighs our otherwise very uninspiring record in the transfer market. Rodgers has been fortunate both in terms of the players he inherited and (more positively) his ability to coach good performances out of 'unfashionable' players like Flanagan and Henderson, to bring through Sterling and to help Suarez become one of the best in the world. But I don't think that long term good coaching can make up for consistently bad transfer business. Whatever the arrangements are with transfers, Rodgers needs to be aware that fair or not the buck for poor performances on the pitch stops with him and so he needs to take responsibility and do what is necessary to ensure that we start performing in the transfer market.

Offline Penfold78

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-2 Chelsea
« Reply #12 on: November 9, 2014, 09:39:29 pm »
In isolation, the game was as expected. We were beaten by the best side in the league at present. I think it more useful to reflect on the season to date, for which this game represents a useful measure.

I’m strongly of the opinion that the concerns about our transfers and by extension, trying to apportion blame elsewhere than our manager is simply an expression of the current disappointments. We don’t like to blame our manager for failures and so seek some other target. I see no evidence that Brendan is not largely or entirely responsible for the players we have chosen. He has not indicated otherwise at any stage despite the immense pressure now on him, nor does anyone seriously doubt that core transfer targets such as Lallana and Lovren were his first choices (or at least, when the transfer window was open, few doubted this, whatever the current revisionism).

My view is that I am entirely supportive of the manager’s choices. I would argue that most are showing promise or actively doing well - individually, at least, and when played. Only Lovren and Balotelli can be considered suspect of the additions (in my view) and one can make an argument that both have their potential upsides. Lovren I will address later, and I must disclose that I have a personal bias against Mario and his way of behaving, but one can see he is not comfortable in the lone striker role and should surely only be judged once he has a consistent partner up front.

Moreno has been good and will certainly improve the weaknesses he occasionally shows. Can has been good and improves each match. Manquillo too. Markovic has been patchy but showed some of his possibilities against Madrid and is young yet. Lambert I can honestly offer little opinion on, as he has played so little. He has made a difference however, when coming on late in a number of matches.

No, for me the problem is not the personnel brought in, but the players we already have and more so: the way Brendan is setting up the team and his apparently inexplicable choices - including the apparent refusal to play certain players. No transfer committee, nor FSG, or any other scapegoats de jour choose the way we play and the players we chose to execute that plan. This is the manager’s choice.

So, I have spent some time to reflect on what Brendan is trying to do. It is a sadness of the game (as with politics) that a manager cannot spend some time talking reasonably to the fans about what his vision is, how he is trying to implement that plan and why he makes the choices he does. This invites the vacuum to be filled with speculation, blame-mongering and general panic. Or more usefully, support and faith. Football shares much with religion in this regard.

In regard to last season, it is widely accepted that we lost the title because of our defence. What is less often referenced is that we significantly over-achieved and this has created unprecedented pressures for what was probably a five year plan. I consider that the expected milestone was for us to improve in the second half of that season and have a strong run into fifth place. No-one could have foreseen United having quite that level of catastrophe. Additionally, no-one could have foreseen the victorious run we had and its shape. If we had lost or drawn a couple of the games in January or February (i.e. Chelsea and Palace had happened then) we would have had a fabulous, uplifting drive to fifth or fourth even, an accomplishment with which our fans would have been very satisfied. Getting second was always going to be a millstone, because we were and are a long way from being experienced enough to fulfil the expectations of doing it again or one better.

Getting back into the UEFA Cup would have given us European experience (both players and manager) and we would have built a squad to gain from that experience of playing several times a week. Since I believe that scouting is a long term investment of time and analysis rather than a swift punt decided the night before over a fag and a beer, I think that our targets over the summer reflected exactly this preparation. Most balanced commentators could see what we were trying to do in building the squad and enhancing depth and positions.

Getting the Champions League so soon put a lot of pressure on our decision making. We reacted well by trying to sign Sanchez but most of the manager’s targets were/are evolutionary rather than revolutionary. Fans also seem to think (at least from what I read here and elsewhere) that CL automatically brings vast wealth and a queue of world class talent demanding to be signed. The reality is that unless a club  is perceived as being a permanent presence, few players will be tempted. (United rather demonstrates this, as most players and their agents will have viewed last year as a blip, just as they viewed our success as the same. That’s why United has massively over-paid on wages - to ensure it was a blip, otherwise they are screwed). People get disgruntled that we are not buying ‘world class’ even though that is simply not going to happen with just the one season qualification.

So, Brendan rightly chooses to continue with the plan and develop the experience needed whilst in the Champions League. Unfortunately, the expectation of LFC fans in that competition is so massively higher than even the Premier League. Look at the reaction to an eminently sensible and pragmatic decision for the  game at the Bernabeu.

Back to the defence. I think Brendan has reacted to the poor defending we saw last season by going back to his beliefs and original plan - owning the ball as the best defence. From my observations, he strongly believes that competent possession of the ball and strong pressure, allied to a fluid and dangerous attack (which by its nature, keeps opposition teams honest and nervous) is a surer plan that also provides an attacking platform.  He also believes in playing from the back so as to control the game.

With the SAS, this game plan went by the board by and large, although we tried to implement it a fair number of games. We got away with a lot last season because during our run, teams got mesmerised and then terrified of our pace. However, it actually only took three months for the better managers to get wise to what we were doing and where our weaknesses lay. By the end, we were being found out (we all remember Chelsea and Palace, but do you remember the squeaky bum-fest that was the Norwich game?)

Without Suarez, we were not going to replicate last season, and it was not going to be sustainable to play that way even with him. That meant that Brendan has had to try and coach a more measured approach to try and develop a defensive capability commensurate with a league campaign - let alone the Champions League, where away goals are so crucial and teams so much more lethal - as well as preserving the fluid attack. Playing like last season in the CL would have seen us badly mauled, in my opinion. We might have scored, but in that competition, opponents would have scored more and we would have scored less.

I can therefore see why he would have bought Lovren and expected him to play alongside Sakho as our first choice defence. What scouting analysis cannot tell you is how the individual pieces, once combined, will react to the plan and the coaching in the real world. It is clear to me that one or other of those two has simply failed to adjust to Brendan’s coaching - in my view, more Lovren than Sakho. He seems to be suffering a serious crisis of confidence. In the light of this, Brendan has erred on the side of caution and kept Skrtel in the team. He has also stayed with using Gerrard as the defensive midfielder - perhaps through loyalty, more probably because after last season, virtually no manager could drop Gerrard. That time and decision is looming large however, as the centre backs are now so exposed, their confidence is plummeting or gone. I was struck by how Lucas brought not only composure against Madrid, but that his presence shored up Mignolet’s performance too - he came off his line, punched well and looked a different keeper. Toure too, brought the leadership needed and which Lovren was reputed to deliver. For this reason, I consider Lovren to be our only serious transfer mistake, and yet experience tells me that we should give a man a lot longer than 11 games to prove himself. In my view, Lovren’s confidence is shot and he would be best served being taken out of the firing line and coached to fulfil the partnership with Sakho that I believe was originally planned before returning.

The very poor and deeply frustrating playing of passes deep at the back is both symptomatic and diagnostic of our defence’s lack of belief. Brendan has to take responsibility for this - it is his plan. Yet Toure showed against Madrid that confident, forward driving play is possible. It is relatively high risk, but much less than the panicky messing around that pressure inevitably brings. Unfortunately, with Gerrard and Balotelli in the side we tend to give away possession too cheaply in the midfield - this just brings the ball straight back at us, which is not Brendan’s defensive plan at all. Most of our experienced players from last year are tending to lose possession easily. To compound this, they are also taking too long on the ball and not moving fluidly off the ball. This strikes me as both adjustment to new demands (i.e. less sure than they were that someone would be available and demanding the ball) and a conflict in the mind - high risk one touch pass or safety first possession? This takes time to coach and I see an improvement developing in both new and experienced players.

The one genuine omission from the transfer window was finding a player to add to our strike force. Sanchez was a good attempt, frustrated by the player’s desire to go to Arsenal. Remy showed good thinking, and Origi may well prove to be a good answer next year. As I noted earlier, Balotelli bemuses me as I don’t see how he fits anywhere, but I can see that as a partner to Sturridge, there may have been a strong argument. We’ll see shortly. Yet the interesting thing for me is that the self-professed experts have not suggested any names that we could have reasonable had a chance of signing. That probably means that there weren’t any, that Balotelli became a gamble worth taking and that we have may have some ideas in January when some teams are no longer in the CL and thus more willing to deal.

No, I’m generally comfortable with our signings and what I think Brendan is trying to do. What thoroughly baffled me was why he sticks with a clearly malfunctioning unit, despite clear evidence from games as to what will work and what will not. My reflection is that he may well believe (as many do) that stability is absolutely key to developing good habits and embedding his methods. There is some merit in that, as in trusting players to come good when they are being challenged by having to learn new methods. However, I think there has been enough time for players to step up, and some have been over-played in this attempt to preserve stability. Other members of the team have shown the ability to implement the plan and deserve a chance to keep their place.

I think Brendan is greatly in need of our support and understanding. His methods are not about instantaneous success, but embedded, long term thinking. Van Gaal’s United are showing that spending stupid money on transfers and wages is not a guarantee of anything. Pellegrini’s City are wobbling despite having spent a billion pounds and paying their players the GDP of several countries each week. Wenger’s Arsenal are inconsistent and missing key pieces despite strong revenues and 16 years continuous Champion’s League. None of them are that far ahead of us. Yet Koeman’s Southampton are showing excellence whilst their players are paid in shiny beads and conch shells so it’s clearly not about money alone as some maintain.

Brendan looked really dispirited in his post match interview after Chelsea. Hearing boos at Anfield may well have hit him hard. I believe he is working really hard to address the concerns we all feel - it’s just not quite coming together and he knows he has hugely difficult decisions to make. I am absolutely sure the players and him are not taking this lightly as some here like to suggest. This is when he truly becomes a Liverpool manager, forged in the fire of expectation and history. He’s got all the tools, all the self-belief needed. he needs, as we do, this time of hard knocks. Nothing of worth is gained easily or without pain. We sometimes forget how little experience he has of the very highest level. It will come, but can only do so through trial.

I used to have this quote by Thomas Paine in my signature and I think it still provides wisdom for this season:

“These are the times that try men's souls. The summer soldier and the sunshine patriot will, in this crisis, shrink from the service of their country; but he that stands by it now, deserves the love and thanks of man and woman. Tyranny, like hell, is not easily conquered; yet we have this consolation with us, that the harder the conflict, the more glorious the triumph. What we obtain too cheap, we esteem too lightly: it is dearness only that gives every thing its value.”

The real test for Brendan comes this next couple of weeks as he ponders the challenges ahead. Will players be chosen on merit? Will he address Gerrard’s decline? Will he adapt his formation and approach to the strengths we show with Daniel in the team?

I’m looking forward to finding out.

 If you are going to read one post this week, make it this one. Well written, well thought out and yes, I can't wait to find out either.  See you in May....

Offline TSC

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-2 Chelsea
« Reply #13 on: November 9, 2014, 10:00:15 pm »
Obviously there are problems throughout the team but just seen some stats which say we're leading the way for most defensive mistakes this season.  Sitting on 16 at the moment.  Some of our defending really does beggar belief at times.  Currently we're 15 points off top and 7 points off bottom.  Frightening really.

Offline ShayGuevara

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-2 Chelsea
« Reply #14 on: November 9, 2014, 10:51:14 pm »
We were the better side for the first 25/30 mins. We actually played very well, reminiscent slightly of last season.

Again though we seemed to struggle to maintain that intensity, I remember that Sterling tackle on Ramires 10mins before half time pretty much summing up how much we were struggling with fitness before half time. Rather than track his run he took as sloppy a yellow card as you'll see, it reminded me of a big bruiser in Sunday league up against a fit young lad expect the big bruiser was a 19 year old. There are plenty of other examples also, the second goal for Chelsea was another. Coutinho struggled to keep pace with Azpilicueta and Johnson was too lazy or tired to make a last ditch tackle.

At the beginning of last season we struggled to press and control games, Brendan knew this and tinkered around with formations. When Suarez came back we start winning games with more conviction but the pressing and control of games wasn't really there until the Spurs game this time last year and not consistently until our winning streak after xmas. A lot of the time we came out of the trap's quick, played at that intensity to half time and then struggled in the second half. Brendan's system either demands too much from the players, or the fitness programmes they are given aren't adequate for our style of play. It certainly seem's we are built to peak late on in the season, rather than come out of the traps flying like Chelsea have and often do.

I was happy to see we could still play to that level early on in this game though, maybe we were missing Sturridge and  I guess we still didn't create a lot but our movement and pressing was the best I've seen since the Spurs game. There are signs we are getting back to our best but it's not happening quick enough.

I really think the biggest problem in our squad right now is fitness and obviously cohesion between our attacking players also. I feel both these will click in time, likely after xmas.

In regards the match and player performances I thought Johnson had a good game but was lazy (probably unfit also) for the second goal. I think Sterling and Coutinho are missing the running of Sturridge and Suarez, both Sturridge and Suarez were the key men and while teams were occupied with them it created space for Sterling and Coutinho. Balotelli isn't offering the same threat and now Sterling in particular is marked as our key player and is struggling slightly because of it.

Can was the real bright point of this game he looked excellent (although struggled for fitness), took his goal well and closed Chelsea down well. Him playing more advanced helped us defend from the front. It's a shame we burnt out so quick.

Borini impressed be a little late on, he gets himself about and works hard. Maybe with a run of game's he'd start finding the net also.

Sturridge is back soon, when he comes back we'll soon know if our problems going forward are really due to Mario's lack of movement and poor finnishing as a lot would suggest.

Our poor fitness levels are limiting our movement and pressing, which limits our control over the game. We're playing the ball forward and running out of ideas then being hit on the counter. How much the inclusion of Sturridge and possibly Sakho will help change that I don't know, I feel time and more games is what'll get us out of this rut. Hopefully it won't be too late for top 4 at least by that stage though.

"The socialism I believe in is everyone working for each other, everyone having a share of the rewards. It's the way I see football, the way I see life" Bill Shankly

Offline ShayGuevara

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-2 Chelsea
« Reply #15 on: November 9, 2014, 11:01:53 pm »
Obviously there are problems throughout the team but just seen some stats which say we're leading the way for most defensive mistakes this season.  Sitting on 16 at the moment.  Some of our defending really does beggar belief at times.  Currently we're 15 points off top and 7 points off bottom.  Frightening really.

We've made more defensive errors than any other side in Europes top 5 leagues. Think about that for a minute.

We are made to defend through our intensity and pressing which isn't there, certainly not for 90mins or even 45. It's not the only problem, our amateur set piece defending and failure to clear our lines is effecting us also. We seem to be working on it, I'm a fan of the zonal marking while also man marking the opposition's main threats aerially like Chelsea have been doing for a long time now to great effect. The problem though is clearing our lines after winning that first ball, this is somewhere we've really struggled this season.

Shall be interesting to see if we play a Manquilo, Lovren, Sakho, Moreno defence often this season. On paper it sounds like it can work and suits the system more but for whatever reason Rodgers seems to trust our more senior players more.
"The socialism I believe in is everyone working for each other, everyone having a share of the rewards. It's the way I see football, the way I see life" Bill Shankly

Offline John C

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-2 Chelsea
« Reply #16 on: November 9, 2014, 11:18:34 pm »
>snip<
Thanks for taking the time with that mate, very thought felt.


Offline ShayGuevara

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-2 Chelsea
« Reply #17 on: November 9, 2014, 11:35:37 pm »
If you are going to read one post this week, make it this one. Well written, well thought out and yes, I can't wait to find out either.  See you in May....

Yeah, excellent post. Well balanced and hard to disagree with a most of it.
"The socialism I believe in is everyone working for each other, everyone having a share of the rewards. It's the way I see football, the way I see life" Bill Shankly

Offline stockdam

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-2 Chelsea
« Reply #18 on: November 9, 2014, 11:36:47 pm »
It's depressing. For anyone blaming the ref or thinking we were close need to understand Chelsea just like Madrid midweek had an extra gear or two in them if needed.

Let's knock this fallacy on the head. In both games there was only one goal in it. Are you saying that neither Chelsea or Real Madrid were trying and were holding back because that would be silly and very risky. I doubt if either of their managers wanted anything other than total commitment from their respective teams.

So you honestly believe that both teams were not trying to score more goals? What if we had sneaked a goal with 5 minutes to go. Then the momentum may have shifted and then if we had scored again what do you think the managers would have said......"hard luck guys, you contained that Liverpool team and we all know that you had an extra gear if needed. Pity they scored two late goals"

No team sits with a goal lead and doesn't try. Both Chelsea and Real Madrid were trying to both score more and to prevent us from scoring. Playing within yourself with a goal advantage is silly as that is the way to lose games that you should have won.

#JFT97

Offline Sammy5IsAlive

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-2 Chelsea
« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2014, 12:40:15 am »
Let's knock this fallacy on the head. In both games there was only one goal in it. Are you saying that neither Chelsea or Real Madrid were trying and were holding back because that would be silly and very risky. I doubt if either of their managers wanted anything other than total commitment from their respective teams.

So you honestly believe that both teams were not trying to score more goals? What if we had sneaked a goal with 5 minutes to go. Then the momentum may have shifted and then if we had scored again what do you think the managers would have said......"hard luck guys, you contained that Liverpool team and we all know that you had an extra gear if needed. Pity they scored two late goals"

No team sits with a goal lead and doesn't try. Both Chelsea and Real Madrid were trying to both score more and to prevent us from scoring. Playing within yourself with a goal advantage is silly as that is the way to lose games that you should have won.

It's a little bit six of one, half a dozen of another for me. I think we gave both teams a good game, and neither were able to take their foot off the pedal to the extent that Madrid did second half at Anfield. In the last 10 in both games we were well in touch and had enough about us that we were on the front foot. But I think it would be fair to say that a) we were hanging on at times defensively against both teams and b) Whilst we played some nice stuff on the counter in both games, and were able to push them onto the back foot for the last 10, neither Real nor Chelsea looked massively troubled.

I don't think it is a matter of them playing within themselves, more an acceptance that in both games it looked as if we could have been 10% better and the opposition would still have looked fairly comfortable.

Offline GregCharrua

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-2 Chelsea
« Reply #20 on: November 10, 2014, 01:23:34 am »

Offline GregCharrua

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-2 Chelsea
« Reply #21 on: November 10, 2014, 01:40:31 am »
The first 30 minutes we looked very good. But coming on after half time, it was all down hill.

Lovren is having a serious crisis, and I agree with some others on here that he needs taking out of the firing line. I don't believe he is as bad a player as he has looked.

And I also agree with what some have said regarding Gerrard - the internal crisis he seems to be going through but especially that his presence in that DM role is not helping our center backs or keeper. Some have explained good reason for Rodgers having stuck by him after his season last year, but for me, the time has come for him to go to the bench while the team tries to recover itself. Lucas needs to be playing, if for no other reason than he shores us up in the back and is good keeping the ball ticking over.

Henderson worked for us last season, but so far this season I think we're seeing why Rodgers originally wanted to swap him for Dempsey - not because he's a poor player, but because he isn't the sort of player that fits in a side that plays it out, plays it short, and controls the game by holding onto the ball. He just doesn't have the touch, he can't turn on the ball. He's great at pressing and he was just what was needed for our diamond last season. But he seems out of place now, though he did good closing down Fabregas.

Can had a great performance and I can see him taking Henderson spot. A Lucas-Can-Coutinho midfield holds promise, and Allen would do well with that group, too.

It's been a strange weekend. Spurs, Arsenal, Everton all struggling, and United, too, though I'm worried they may actually find some form. Will Southampton, West Ham, Swansea keep this form all season? I think it's going to be a strange-looking table come May. Hopefully our spot in it will be a good one.





Offline ShayGuevara

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-2 Chelsea
« Reply #22 on: November 10, 2014, 02:15:00 am »
The first 30 minutes we looked very good. But coming on after half time, it was all down hill.

Lovren is having a serious crisis, and I agree with some others on here that he needs taking out of the firing line. I don't believe he is as bad a player as he has looked.

And I also agree with what some have said regarding Gerrard - the internal crisis he seems to be going through but especially that his presence in that DM role is not helping our center backs or keeper. Some have explained good reason for Rodgers having stuck by him after his season last year, but for me, the time has come for him to go to the bench while the team tries to recover itself. Lucas needs to be playing, if for no other reason than he shores us up in the back and is good keeping the ball ticking over.

Henderson worked for us last season, but so far this season I think we're seeing why Rodgers originally wanted to swap him for Dempsey - not because he's a poor player, but because he isn't the sort of player that fits in a side that plays it out, plays it short, and controls the game by holding onto the ball. He just doesn't have the touch, he can't turn on the ball. He's great at pressing and he was just what was needed for our diamond last season. But he seems out of place now, though he did good closing down Fabregas.

Can had a great performance and I can see him taking Henderson spot. A Lucas-Can-Coutinho midfield holds promise, and Allen would do well with that group, too.

It's been a strange weekend. Spurs, Arsenal, Everton all struggling, and United, too, though I'm worried they may actually find some form. Will Southampton, West Ham, Swansea keep this form all season? I think it's going to be a strange-looking table come May. Hopefully our spot in it will be a good one.

I have the game recorded and the day off work. Can you remind me of a few moments in particular where he looked to be playing badly/in crisis?

I just don't see it, not sure why as the majority on here do. I didn't see it with Sakho, Allen, Henderson etc either though so could be just me.
"The socialism I believe in is everyone working for each other, everyone having a share of the rewards. It's the way I see football, the way I see life" Bill Shankly

Offline RedBootsTommySmith

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-2 Chelsea
« Reply #23 on: November 10, 2014, 02:16:53 am »
Victorious and glorious....

Offline slimbo

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-2 Chelsea
« Reply #24 on: November 10, 2014, 02:25:55 am »
Well it's testing times. Not just for the supporters and players but particularly for our manager. He has some big decisions ahead if he is to turn our form and season around.

Personally, I was worried when I saw the team that started. Unless something dramatic had happened during training midweek this was the same team, Can excepted, that has been under performing for most of the season, creating very few chances, providing plenty for the opposition, and low on confidence. I thought our first 10-15min was pretty positive but it went downhill quickly after that, refereeing aside.

I don't think I've seen as clear demonstration of Gerrard's struggles as I did in the first half of this match. Time over he could be seen chasing a Chelsea player who had skipped past him and now headed towards our unstable back four. Combine that with the poor form of Henderson, who is limited technically, and it made for grim viewing against the form side of the competition. The fact they are Captain and Vice Captain is also interesting. Does this mean the are undroppable? It certainly seems that way when it comes to the league.

You have to ask yourself how a team that creates very few chances and has struggled to for months now can change things without changing certain things? At least I do. Balotelli up front on his own has produced how many goals or chances on goal per game? The solution? Stick with it. I could watch Gerrard's hollywood passes all day. They are a thing of beauty but at this point I'd rather see some of the endeavour and structure I saw in front of the back four midweek. I think it provides a far better platform for the likes of PC, Sterling, Lallana and dare I say Balotelli than what we currently have.

I'd much rather us try what we did against Madrid. I'd be happy to run with  4-4-2 Diamond with Sterling and Borini / Sturridge up front. PC at the tip with Lucas at the base and flank them with Can and Allen or Lallana. Utilise Manquillo and Moreno who like to get forward and you have a much more dynamic, pressing setup with a solid option to protect the back four.

One key reason the change is necessary is because a message needs to be sent to all the players. Perform and you earn your spot. Produce and you earn your spot. If your out of form or not producing what we need you work on it at training and watch from the bench until you're back in form. It keeps the hunger in players who have been dropped and rewards those who have earned their chance. It's a key part of putting in good performances.

At the moment it seems like there's an unsaid policy of certain players being undroppable. If that's the case I don't think Sturridge will solve our problems. He'll certainly make our situation better. He'll offer a lot more in terms of being available to receive the ball and playing players in. He might even bring a formation change which could shake things up. But our issues are a little deeper than that I suspect. Time for the manager to make some tough calls.

Offline kcbworth

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-2 Chelsea
« Reply #25 on: November 10, 2014, 02:40:18 am »
I thought we played much better, and if we play like that more often we'll start to get better results against the Hull's, Geordie's, and Villa's of this comp. So that's a good start.

Really liked what Can had to offer, and Coutinho was magnificent first 35 mins I thought - especially given the profile of the midfield and defence he was up against.

I even didn't think our defence was too bad - Skrtel didn't do much wrong, thought Johnson gave us a good outlet (albeit a bit slow), Lovren only made a couple of (pretty poor mind you) errors, and Moreno was a good option bombing forward (though left us a bit exposed going back I thought).

Mignolet made some great saves, although missed a few great quick break opportunities which is often what you need in these games.

Sterling - meh. About the same as usual. Not good or bad. Not close to being our leader yet, but far from our worst performer.

Really was unimpressed with the contributions of Henderson Gerrard and Balotelli in this one (maybe slightly less so Hendo).

Balo just wasn't able to get into the right parts of the pitch. Gerrard just didn't really know what he was doing imho - wanted to bomb it forward, but has obviously been told not to, so pretty much just left the ball alone. The contrast with Can and Coutinho, and then Allen when he came on, was vast.

Pretty clear that this isn't Gerrard's best role in this formation, and I hope we rarely see it again personally.

Henderson is a shame. He actually started the game well, but he has just completely lost his touch and confidence it seems. No idea why. I'm sure he'll rediscover it, but man, I hope it's soon.

Of the subs - Allen was good. Ball hardly got to Borini but he did get a good shot off, and he could have pulled it out of the bag. Lambert was peripheral - there was one moment I was hoping he'd shoot from the corner of the box, but he just moved the ball on, and it wasn't to be.

All in all though, far far far from our worst performance of the season, and I actually felt a bit better about our prospects following that (not for the title - but at least for top half, which honestly, wasn't looking likely a week ago)

Offline kcbworth

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-2 Chelsea
« Reply #26 on: November 10, 2014, 02:44:21 am »
« Last Edit: November 10, 2014, 02:45:57 am by kcbworth »

Offline fcsantos

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-2 Chelsea
« Reply #27 on: November 10, 2014, 03:04:59 am »

One brilliant post.

I appreciate I am not a well respected or known poster, but any Liverpool supporter, please, please listen to the TAW podcast:

http://www.theanfieldwrap.com/2014/11/podcast-drifters/

If you can't be arsed listening to it, just listen to the last 10minutes which tells us what Liverpool fans are all about, I fucking love these boys!

Let's meet the coach with the fucking flares, singing and scarfs for the home match against Stoke on the 29th (I'm there, probably on my own with a lighter and a glow stick, haha!)


Offline RedBootsTommySmith

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-2 Chelsea
« Reply #28 on: November 10, 2014, 03:14:03 am »
Gerrard v Chelsea

http://vimeo.com/111345310

The last clip in that video, I think its Matic clipping over the advancing Gerrard +2, is almost identical to the Ronaldo goal vs Real Madrid:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vbBo0PfMcE

Gerrard's tainting his legacy, such a great player, but he just doesn't belong in that position.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2014, 03:16:08 am by RedBootsTommySmith »
Victorious and glorious....

Offline fcsantos

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-2 Chelsea
« Reply #29 on: November 10, 2014, 03:34:07 am »
The last clip in that video, I think its Matic clipping over the advancing Gerrard +2, is almost identical to the Ronaldo goal vs Real Madrid:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2vbBo0PfMcE

Gerrard's tainting his legacy, such a great player, but he just doesn't belong in that position.

Did you see Matic get outstripped by Coutinho on 2 occasions aswell mate?  What's Matic's excuse?

Offline RedBootsTommySmith

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-2 Chelsea
« Reply #30 on: November 10, 2014, 04:04:19 am »
Did you see Matic get outstripped by Coutinho on 2 occasions aswell mate?  What's Matic's excuse?

Don't give a tuppeny's about Matic mate. He doesn't play for us.

On that play, it wasn't just Gerrard got sucked in - Moreno, Can, Henderson & Coutinho were all culpable.  On other highlighted clips, Johnson & Lovren were culpable.  The problem is not just Gerrard, but the video evidence here is nonetheless pretty damning that Gerrard struggles in CM/ DM -  or whatever we choose to call that anchor position.

« Last Edit: November 10, 2014, 04:44:05 am by RedBootsTommySmith »
Victorious and glorious....

Offline harryc

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-2 Chelsea
« Reply #31 on: November 10, 2014, 07:38:52 am »
I have the game recorded and the day off work. Can you remind me of a few moments in particular where he looked to be playing badly/in crisis?

I just don't see it, not sure why as the majority on here do. I didn't see it with Sakho, Allen, Henderson etc either though so could be just me.

Your right what's everybody on about the players are all firing on full cylinders and we are top of the league    :o

Offline ShayGuevara

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-2 Chelsea
« Reply #32 on: November 10, 2014, 08:04:15 am »
Your right what's everybody on about the players are all firing on full cylinders and we are top of the league    :o

Did you read my post properly? I never said we were firing on all cylinders, nothing like it in fact.
"The socialism I believe in is everyone working for each other, everyone having a share of the rewards. It's the way I see football, the way I see life" Bill Shankly

Offline planet-terror

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-2 Chelsea
« Reply #33 on: November 10, 2014, 11:19:29 am »
@The Repeated Meme. Really enjoyed that post.
Agreed.  Excellent post
bollocks

Offline decosabute

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-2 Chelsea
« Reply #34 on: November 10, 2014, 12:03:05 pm »
Blackburn won it in 95 and then finished 6th the next season. Newcastle finished 2nd in 97 and then finished 13th the next season. If you'd like cheering up a little, don't forget that just last season United went from league winners to finishing 7th.

Funnily enough, both the Newcastle and Blackburn drop-offs were also at least in part, the result of losing strikers. Blackburn were without Chris Sutton for most of the season after they won it, and Newcastle lost Shearer to injury for most of the 97-98 campaign.

Of course there are lots of reasons why we are where we are right now, but when you've lost what we have up front to transfer and injury, it's almost unavoidable to have such a massive downturn. The anger for most people of course lies in why we've been left this exposed after those losses.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2014, 12:05:26 pm by decosabute »

Offline saoirse08

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-2 Chelsea
« Reply #35 on: November 10, 2014, 01:18:36 pm »
“The socialism I believe in is everyone working for each other, everyone having a share of the rewards. It’s the way I see football, the way I see life.”

"The old is dying and the new cannot be born; in this interregnum a great variety of morbid symptoms appear."

Offline rayted_are

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-2 Chelsea
« Reply #36 on: November 10, 2014, 04:16:20 pm »
Glen Johnson vs Chelsea

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/7IQBlvbtQJA" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/7IQBlvbtQJA</a>

Offline rayted_are

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-2 Chelsea
« Reply #37 on: November 11, 2014, 02:20:59 am »
Steven Gerrard vs Chelsea (Defensive Contribution)

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/Yag2wxPnOio" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/Yag2wxPnOio</a>

Offline KopSound

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-2 Chelsea
« Reply #38 on: November 11, 2014, 07:05:59 am »
Obviously there are problems throughout the team but just seen some stats which say we're leading the way for most defensive mistakes this season.  Sitting on 16 at the moment.  Some of our defending really does beggar belief at times.  Currently we're 15 points off top and 7 points off bottom.  Frightening really.
Which begs the question of why Toure didn't get the start? He earned it 110% in the Madrid game, and I can't imagine that Rodgers didn't see that. Frankly if you can come up with an amazing game against Real Madrid in the Champions League, you deserve to start in the league.
Liverpool FC - Sounders FC

Offline fefs

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Re: Round Table Liverpool 1-2 Chelsea
« Reply #39 on: November 11, 2014, 07:27:25 am »
We've made more defensive errors than any other side in Europes top 5 leagues. Think about that for a minute.


This is by far our biggest problem as I see it, or at least second to our lack of goal threat (which I'm praying will be solved when Sturridge returns)

Teams arent even needing to be all that creative against us, or to score great goals.
They can simply press and harry and wait for a mistake and then capitalise on that. And there WILL be a mistake to capitalise on.