Author Topic: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)  (Read 106064 times)

Offline stevensr123

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1120 on: July 31, 2014, 06:20:07 am »
Calling for destruction of Israel and praising a terrorist organization in one post. Awesomesauce.
one terrorist group destroying another terrorist group ?
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Offline Jebediah

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1121 on: July 31, 2014, 06:25:40 am »
You're point is?

You could go to almost any town in Eastern Europe and hear equally disgusting bullshit about Jewish, Chinese, Asian or African people.

The Arab racists on the other hand are not making promises to eradicate the black people from their lands.
I am not aware of any Arab government which has the policy of putting all black immigrants into camps.

Racism in Eastern Europe along with many Arab countries is the result of economics and education.


The same cannot be said about Israel where we have college professors suggesting Palestinians women should be raped
to stop their men resisting the occupation.
Where we have Israeli generals suggesting that by targeting women and children, it will deter the men from resisting.
The IDFs officially classifies Arab children at the age of 12 or higher as legitimate targets.


When Netanyahu promised that not one black refugee would be allowed to stay in Israel, this was not the racism of ignorance or economics.

This is a fundamentally different form of racism whereby the other race, religion is seen as being markedly inferior and the same rules of morality and ethics are not applied.

And since you mentioned Europeans, gentiles from Europe do not have the same rights in Israel as European Jews.
For example I can be imprisoned for 3 years without charge or trial, a Jewish person cannot - that is the constitution sadly.



I tried to ignore your other nonsense about the refugee issue in Israel, but i couldn't ignore this one...

There is not one part of this diatribe which is even remotely true.

It's very hard to debate and discuss what is going on in Gaza/Israel today when you see posts like this. Utter utter drivel. I suggest you delete it and then go post in another thread about things you know something about.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 06:34:28 am by Jebediah »
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Offline Jebediah

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1122 on: July 31, 2014, 06:32:46 am »
Quite a conundrum though, isn't it? Just to play the devil's advocate, what's Israel to do about these caches of weapons? The Israeli government's first and immediate responsibility is to their own people. I.e. to see that these weapons aren't used on the citizens of Israel, even if it comes at a cost to the citizens of Palestine.

Obviously, I am being crass, but it's what somewhat legitimizes, at least in their eyes, the actions of the Israeli government.

More than that, it seems that yesterday Israel found the opening of a terror tunnel inside an UNWRA clinic. When they tried to dismantle it they found it was booby trapped and 3 soldiers were killed (not bothering to post source as it is from IDF so nobody will believe it).

As you say, quite a conundrum. What is for sure is that in this conflict things like mosques, school and hospitals have become military targets because of the way Hamas use them.

Still doesn't excuse killing innocent people mind... (although i am waiting for a better source than Hamas to confirm the details).



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Offline Jebediah

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1123 on: July 31, 2014, 06:56:23 am »


It is nonsense but not an absolute one. They exist because Israel created the environment for such an organisation to emerge and by its actions, to flourish. Israel’s actions do nothing to attempt to eradicate Hamas, but everything to keep them active and supported by a Palestinian people bereft of a viable alternative, of peace, of hope. Freedom fighters they may not be in the commonly accepted use of the term, but by the same token, not terrorists either. There are young men with no opportunities to build a future for themselves and their family. They may not be interested in Hamas or their ideology, but when these young men grow tired, hungry and see their homes and families bombed to oblivion by a faceless evil, then they don’t have to look far for a solution. Hamas fill the void, stoke their anger and provide a means to fight, to be something and to stand for something.


I half agree. The fact is they did have an opportunity to build a future for themselves. before Hamas brutally took it away. Resorting to the kind of terrorism we see from Hamas is not simply a natural reaction - it takes indoctrination from birth, religious coersion, complicity from UNWRA, funding by Iran etc. These are all things we could actively rally against.


 You, I am sure, want to know why your government bomb schools and hospitals, children on beaches, power stations etc. etc. You would want to know why it is the people of Israel regard this land as theirs just because G-d (you can’t even type out this fictional characters name?) said it was yours, meaning there is no problem in continually taking more and more, wouldn’t you? You would want to know why someone voicing their concerns of the Israeli governments actions on the streets of an Israeli town was beaten and thrown into the back of a police pickup, wouldn’t you? You would demand true and openly transparent answers to these questions, wouldn’t you?


I of course want to know why my government does things that i disagree with and am appalled by. You actually know nothing about me as i am too bust defending Israel against the ridiculous lies and blood-libels on these threads to post any of my own thoughts on my conflict. Everyone then sees me as the devil as i have the audacity to disagree with them sometimes. If you got to know me you might find we agree on a lot of things.

And please drop this 'god given right' nonsense. Israel is a country of over 8 million people and only a tiny tiny percentage believe that. You go on and on about it but it is entirely irrelevant to mainstream politics in Israel.


I assume you want to know why Israeli children are being brought up to believe that dead Palestinian women and children in a UN school were killed by a Hamas rocket, or at the very least a good and just Israeli rocket deflected by a Hamas rocket, don’t you? And you want to know why your children have to suffer genital mutilation and are told that if they do not do this, they have no place in the “world to come”, don’t you?


As i said i challenge what my government does. I am able to do so as i live in a democratic country. Thankfully i don't live in Hamasistan or any of the other countries surrounding Israel where questioning your government is punishable by death.

Also, maybe they were killed by a Hamas rocket? Did that ever occur to you? Or do you implicitly believe the Hamas reports?

And please drop the anti-religion thing. That's twice in your post already you have been extremely offensive and it adds nothing to the debate. For the record i happily circumcised by son, just like our Muslim cousins do. Plus, girls prefer it!




You, then, must demand to know why Israel bomb schools and hospitals, children on beaches, power stations in self defence, surely? You want to know why Israel commits these acts of terror with impunity and fend off any criticism with child like excuses like “it was a Hamas rocket what hit our rocket and it deflected over there, right onto that UN school. It was Hamas what did it!” don’t you? And I know you demand to know why Israel keep blockades in place that do nothing to hurt or diminish Hamas but act as a collective punishment to all Palestinians in Gaza (most of whom are children) and in fact drive the poor, weak and desperate people into the recruiting arms of Hamas, don’t you? I know you demand to know why Israel repeat acts of terror and war crimes upon innocent men, women and children, guaranteeing a response from Hamas, don’t you?


I know exactly why the blockade exists. Because everything that gets into Gaza is funnelled away for the use by Hamas of improving their terror infrastructure. Are you really blind to that? You know something, i went to a rally in Israel and protested against the limit on concrete allowed into the Gaza Strip. What could Hamas possibly do with concrete that could hurt Israel? I asked a question and now i have the answer. The tunnels are only one example of why the blockade was a necessary evil.
 


Why did you move to Israel, Jeb? I don’t think you’ve ever answered me. 


I moved to Israel for a number of reasons. Primary among them was that i was 24 years old and wanted an adventure before i settled down. When i looked at the map Israel seemed a good place to go as i had family and friends there, had been there before and being Jewish, had a 'connection' with the place. Underpinning it all of course was an ideological motivation. I am a Zionist and believe strongly in the existence of the state of Israel. I thought that by moving here i could be a part of the story of my people and could work to make Israel a better place. I am also a Jew (although i don't believe in god) and it is fantastic living in a Jewish country (in a similar way that a Christian enjoys living in a Christian country i suppose). That's why i moved here. I stayed for the weather!!
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Offline lindylou100

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1124 on: July 31, 2014, 08:51:51 am »
I don't get it, how is Hamas a terrorist group, but Israel who have killed thousands and thousands of people, robbing land, starving people, systematically killing a race, not terrorism ? Anyone who supports Israel right now, probably would have supported good old adolf back In the day is my guess.

I see the US of A have just agreed to replenish Israelis supply of ammunition as well....blood on your hands mr.obama.

don't fall into that trap

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Godwin%27s_law

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1125 on: July 31, 2014, 09:06:44 am »
Israel will apologise if it is proven that they shelled that UN school the other day.

Well I guess that's that sorted then.  ::)
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Offline mactifosi

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1126 on: July 31, 2014, 09:26:04 am »
I tried to ignore your other nonsense about the refugee issue in Israel, but i couldn't ignore this one...

There is not one part of this diatribe which is even remotely true.

It's very hard to debate and discuss what is going on in Gaza/Israel today when you see posts like this. Utter utter drivel. I suggest you delete it and then go post in another thread about things you know something about.

Do you live in a cave?

All of it is true, should I list examples for all.
A simple Google search will confirm each and every point.

For example from Haaretz.
http://www.haaretz.com/news/national/.premium-1.606542

Israeli professor's 'rape as terror deterrent' statement draws ire.

'The only thing that deters a suicide bomber is the knowledge that if he pulls the trigger or blows himself up, his sister will be raped,' says Bar-Ilan University professor.


Perhaps the West should follow Israel's examples and return to legislation based on race and religion.
There is no place for ideological racism, especially when it is the policy of the state and the institutions of a state are enforcing it.

It was ideological racism which prompted the need to create Israel in the first place.

And we are fucking subsidizing this discrimination and if you think EU citizens are immune, you are fucking wrong.

Some examples of this in practice:
For example one of my friends was all but tortured by the fucking army on a college trip.
She is completely uninterested in politics and would have been very much pro-Israel.
Their excuse was that they reserve the right to randomly interrogate anyone.

Then we have the Irish soldiers in Lebanon shot and shot at by the IDF.
This was punishment for giving sweets to Arab kids.


Israel is not some paragon of virtue.
By European standards it is a rogue state, no better than some of it's neighbours, in some cases worse.



Offline hide5seek

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1127 on: July 31, 2014, 09:28:21 am »

Offline The Gulleysucker

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I don't do polite so fuck yoursalf with your stupid accusations...

Right you fuckwit I will show you why you are talking out of your fat arse...

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Offline mactifosi

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1129 on: July 31, 2014, 09:50:37 am »
More than that, it seems that yesterday Israel found the opening of a terror tunnel inside an UNWRA clinic. When they tried to dismantle it they found it was booby trapped and 3 soldiers were killed (not bothering to post source as it is from IDF so nobody will believe it).

As you say, quite a conundrum. What is for sure is that in this conflict things like mosques, school and hospitals have become military targets because of the way Hamas use them.

Still doesn't excuse killing innocent people mind... (although i am waiting for a better source than Hamas to confirm the details).

And what about the Geneva convention?

Correct me if I am wrong but those 3 schools in which the IDF claims weapons were stored.
The word which has been omitted from most headlines is that they were ABANDONED.


But I also have no doubt that Hamas is storing weapons in civilian buildings.
They do not obviously have army barracks, what would you do if you were in their place?
If we were to apply the same rules of engagement to all sides.........


Also can someone clarify how many rockets were fired by Hamas between the 2012 ceasefire until the latest operation?
The official IDF figure.

It is very different from the picture painted by Netanyahu and I was shocked.
Apparently the recent monthly average had dropped to 5 a month.
This was due in part to a very unpopular crackdown by Hamas on groups such as Al-Aqsa.

(I do reallise that their is a core group in the Israeli intelligence that likes to leak against Netanyahu).

The thing which really sickens me is that Netanyahu went on live television and said Hamas killed those 3 teenagers.
Even though he knew at the time, that they had not and they gagged the press.

I would like to see Hamas defeated in the next elections and they were heading for defeat.
I doubt they will lose now.

Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1130 on: July 31, 2014, 09:55:18 am »
Israel get out. The world powers should grow some bollocks and destroy Israel. They shouldn't be there in the first place.

An open call for genocide. Interesting.
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Offline vagabond

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1131 on: July 31, 2014, 10:09:39 am »
Perhaps some of the more knowledgeable posters here can correct me, but from my understanding of the situation, a two-state solution is basically impossible now isn't it unless Israel contracts its borders drastically?
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Offline hide5seek

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1132 on: July 31, 2014, 10:15:18 am »
He did.

http://www.theguardian.com/world/2005/nov/16/israel2
Makes you sick. Hope  the cantt got cancer and has since died, murdering bastard.

Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1133 on: July 31, 2014, 10:20:51 am »
Perhaps some of the more knowledgeable posters here can correct me, but from my understanding of the situation, a two-state solution is basically impossible now isn't it unless Israel contracts its borders drastically?

It must leave the West Bank and dismantle the Jewish settlements. So the border there must change.

It left Gaza and dismantled the Jewish settlements in 2005. So the border there will stay the same.

It will need a negotiating partner among the Palestinians. Fatah still represents a negotiating partner and Israel must treat it seriously and encourage it instead of humiliating Palestinians in the West Bank. Hamas is emphatically not a negotiating partner because it wants - like a couple of people on this thread - to obliterate Israel altogether and turn the Jews out of the Middle East. 

 
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Offline The Gulleysucker

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1134 on: July 31, 2014, 10:22:27 am »

Both sides seem to have their share of murdering bastards and cynical child killers, they aren't unique to only one side in this terribly sad situation.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Child_suicide_bombers_in_the_Israeli%E2%80%93Palestinian_conflict
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Offline AB LFC

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1135 on: July 31, 2014, 10:26:03 am »
Not saying anything that hasn't been said already, but Israel are without a doubt the biggest terrorist organisation to have ever existed. Some of the things they are doing are disgusting. I'm not talking about just the shelling, but also the abuse of Palestinian civilians, arrests of kids, abusing them, cutting off water supplies, destroying the Turkish ship etc. To echo someone's thought on this page, I wish Iran actually did have a nuke. Give Israel a taste of their own medicine.  I'm not sure who said it but Israel really is the most cowardly military in the world, as is evident by the Guardian article posted above. And what can I say about America. they're the biggest hypocrites that have ever lived. And before anyone calls me out, I'm not too find of Hamas either. I have my views on them but right now my entire mindset is consumed with rage and annoyance over Israel/US.

Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1136 on: July 31, 2014, 10:30:03 am »
Not saying anything that hasn't been said already, but Israel are without a doubt the biggest terrorist organisation to have ever existed. Some of the things they are doing are disgusting. I'm not talking about just the shelling, but also the abuse of Palestinian civilians, arrests of kids, abusing them, cutting off water supplies, destroying the Turkish ship etc. To echo someone's thought on this page, I wish Iran actually did have a nuke. Give Israel a taste of their own medicine.  I'm not sure who said it but Israel really is the most cowardly military in the world, as is evident by the Guardian article posted above. And what can I say about America. they're the biggest hypocrites that have ever lived. And before anyone calls me out, I'm not too find of Hamas either. I have my views on them but right now my entire mindset is consumed with rage and annoyance over Israel/US.

You want Iran to nuke Israel?

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Offline The Gulleysucker

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1137 on: July 31, 2014, 10:40:12 am »
...., I wish Iran actually did have a nuke. Give Israel a taste of their own medicine.  ....

You might want to think, and think very carefully about what you just said there.
I don't do polite so fuck yoursalf with your stupid accusations...

Right you fuckwit I will show you why you are talking out of your fat arse...

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Offline vagabond

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1138 on: July 31, 2014, 10:43:30 am »
It must leave the West Bank and dismantle the Jewish settlements. So the border there must change.

It left Gaza and dismantled the Jewish settlements in 2005. So the border there will stay the same.

It will need a negotiating partner among the Palestinians. Fatah still represents a negotiating partner and Israel must treat it seriously and encourage it instead of humiliating Palestinians in the West Bank. Hamas is emphatically not a negotiating partner because it wants - like a couple of people on this thread - to obliterate Israel altogether and turn the Jews out of the Middle East. 

 

What are the chances of this happening?
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Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1139 on: July 31, 2014, 10:56:23 am »
What are the chances of this happening?

Remote.
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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1140 on: July 31, 2014, 10:57:30 am »
What are the chances of this happening?

Depends how you define Israel's borders - it occupies the West Bank but has not annexed it, so it's not really part of Israel per se (unlike the Golan Heights). Not all Israeli settlements will be dismanted of course, the larger concentrations will be incorporated into Israel with land swaps to make up for this. At least these were the terms during the last serious negotiations which were again rejected by the Palestinian leadership.

Chances of this happening? Decreasing by the day probably. Hamas's actions mean that Israel will insist of having a big say in the security issues in the West Bank in any future settlement which the Palestinians may find even more unacceptable.

There is certainly a deal there to be done, but it will require serious leadership and compromise. Something that's currently lacking in Israel (realistically has been since Rabin despite Barak's efforts) and sadly has always been lacking on the Palestinian side.


Some of the posts on this thread btw, I fucking despair.....
« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 12:54:31 pm by Libertine »

Offline vagabond

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1141 on: July 31, 2014, 11:03:32 am »
Remote.
Depends how you define Israel's borders - it occupies the West Bank but has not annexed it, so it's not really part of Israel per se (unlike the Golan Heights). Not all Israeli settlements will be dismanted of course, the larger concentrations will be incorporated into Israel with land swaps to make up for this. At least these were the terms during the last serious negotiations which were again rejected by the Palestinian leadership.

Chances of this happening? Decreasing by the day probably. Hamas's actions mean that Israel will insist of having a big say in the security issues in the West Bank in any future settlement which the Palestinians may find even more unacceptable.

There is certainly a deal there to be done, but it will require serious leadership and compromise. Something that's currently lacking in Israel (realistically has been since Rabin despite Barak's efforts) and sadly has always been lacking on the Palestinian side.


Some of the posts on this thread byw, I fucking despair.....

I think this seems to be the general consensus right now among most political commentators that I've read. My question is, what is Israel's end game here? Do they want a one-state solution with Arabs and Jews having equal rights in a secular republic? Or are they hoping that all the Palestinians will leave for Jordan and Lebanon? If not, then surely it is in their interests to make the two-state solution happen, no?
Sometimes a man stands up during supper
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because of a church that stands somewhere in the East.
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Online Libertine

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1142 on: July 31, 2014, 11:09:50 am »
I think this seems to be the general consensus right now among most political commentators that I've read. My question is, what is Israel's end game here? Do they want a one-state solution with Arabs and Jews having equal rights in a secular republic? Or are they hoping that all the Palestinians will leave for Jordan and Lebanon? If not, then surely it is in their interests to make the two-state solution happen, no?

That's the big question really. There are some extreme voices on the Israeli right who would want the West Bank to be part of Israel but I think the vast majority of the population recognise the need for a 2 state solution.

Israel can only have two of these three things - a Jewish State, a Democracy and a Greater Israel. If it keeps the West Bank and creates a greater Israel, it either ceases to be a democracy or a Jewish state, neither of which should be remotely acceptable to any right-thinking Israeli. To maintain a Jewish democracy, a deal needs to be done.

I think for now, the Israeli establishment/administration is simply playing for time and putting off the difficult decisions, helped by deficiencies in leadership/unity amongst the Palestinians and the widespread instability in the rest of the Middle East.

They can't put off the decision forever though.

Offline Farman

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1143 on: July 31, 2014, 11:26:58 am »
^They are already in the final straight of their end game. The current situation suits Israel perfectly. The Palestinians are in the perfect position - without their own state, but without having human rights within - for want of a better phrase - 'greater Israel'. Both a genuine two-state solution and full rights for Arabs within a 'greater Israel' are utterly unacceptable to Israel. So they will gladly continue with apartheid for as long as they can, and as long as they are allowed to get away with it (and keep building on 'Palestinian' land, so that if they were ever forced into concessions they could give some of it back and claim 'compromise').

^^Jebediah, I was struck by an interesting line in your post..."I am also a Jew (but I don't believe in God)..."...so what is a Jew then? I think yorkykopite would be interested in your answer (and it's pertinent to this thread because it raises a lot of related questions).
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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1144 on: July 31, 2014, 11:29:22 am »
You want Iran to nuke Israel?


Absolutely not, said what I said in the heat of the moment but Israel do need a bit of fear instilled in them. They're far too big for their shoes and displaying extreme disregard for human lives and have a certain air of arrogance about them, as was shown by their comments towards the US last week.

Offline The Gulleysucker

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1145 on: July 31, 2014, 11:37:10 am »
That's the big question really. There are some extreme voices on the Israeli right who would want the West Bank to be part of Israel but I think the vast majority of the population recognise the need for a 2 state solution.

Israel can only have two of these three things - a Jewish State, a Democracy and a Greater Israel. If it keeps the West Bank and creates a greater Israel, it either ceases to be a democracy or a Jewish state, neither of which should be remotely acceptable to any right-thinking Israeli. To maintain a Jewish democracy, a deal needs to be done.

I think for now, the Israeli establishment/administration is simply playing for time and putting off the difficult decisions, helped by deficiencies in leadership/unity amongst the Palestinians and the widespread instability in the rest of the Middle East.

They can't put off the decision forever though.

You're quite right.

I suspect the mentality amongst those currently in charge is still very much that of just a survival strategy manifesting itself (yet)again as a simple kicking out with overwhelming force at any perceived threat.

What's needed is something a bit more intelligent and thoughtful than what we have been seeing, a proper plan to achieve lasting peace and provide recognition and a measure of justice for those who have been wronged.

It's undoubtedly a Herculean and difficult task, Israel will have to re-examine itself closely as a society and democracy and in the process it might not like what it finds, but it can be done, things can be changed if people really want to work towards a better and safer future, but I do think that initiative has to largely come from within Israel itself.

It's to be hoped that when liberal minded Israelis, and I know there are fortunately many who likely share an abhorrence for what's going on in their name, take time and reflect on this latest round of unequal slaughter and recognise the senseless futility of it all in respect to their prospects of real long term security, something might finally start to change.

It really has to.

I don't do polite so fuck yoursalf with your stupid accusations...

Right you fuckwit I will show you why you are talking out of your fat arse...

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Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1146 on: July 31, 2014, 11:44:46 am »
Absolutely not, said what I said in the heat of the moment.

Good. Just make sure you're not standing next to any red buttons next time the mist comes down.
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Offline Yorkykopite

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1147 on: July 31, 2014, 12:02:02 pm »
^^Jebediah, I was struck by an interesting line in your post..."I am also a Jew (but I don't believe in God)..."...so what is a Jew then? I think yorkykopite would be interested in your answer (and it's pertinent to this thread because it raises a lot of related questions).


Jews don't cease to be Jews when they become atheists. That's true now, but it was also true when Israel was founded. The term 'Jewish State' doesn't help since it suggests something analagous to an 'Islamic State' (ie founded on religious texts). But Zionism wasn't fuelled by religious belief. On the contrary it had no purchase among religious Jews and was almost entirely a secular movement.

I've always supposed that 'Jewish' is a cultural category - based partly on religion (or the memory of religion) but mainly on an intensely shared identity. Centuries and centuries of persecution, by Christians and Muslims alike, have undoubtedly deepened that sense of identity, as well as brought home the necessity for a Jewish homeland with a Jewish army.

Of course there have been those like the Nazis who think of Jews as a 'race' (when they think of the Jews as 'human' at all) but that's obviously just crap.  The Jews comprise many ethnicities.

It is confusing though, I'll grant you. There ought to be a separate word for religious Jew and cultural Jew, just as there is - in the Middle East - for 'Muslim' and 'Arab'.
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Offline mactifosi

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1148 on: July 31, 2014, 12:20:50 pm »
So LIVE on SKY News.

I just watched Israeli forces bombing a Mosque repeatedly, the Mosque is right on the seafront.
Not a rocket or Hamas terrorist in sight.

A clear war crime, as deliberately targeting civilians is a war crime and shown live on TV.

The Sky reporter said he had no idea why they were bombing it but that they kept coming back and were repeatedly targeting the mosque.



Offline RedSince86

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1149 on: July 31, 2014, 12:32:14 pm »
Alan dershowitz is a warmongering prick.


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Offline hide5seek

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1151 on: July 31, 2014, 12:58:52 pm »
Ha really is a prick.

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1152 on: July 31, 2014, 01:17:12 pm »
Yorky. I'm struggling with this. Surely it has to be based on something more tangible than a 'feeling' of being Jewish? Surely your interpretation is not one shared by all Israelis? If I may crudely exaggerate to make a point, surely a Chinese guy from Xian couldn't declare himself as Jewish and be 'accepted' (we can be certain he won't be offered a home on a hilltop on Palestinian land).

If we start talking about shared history, and certainly if we start talking about the sons of Abraham, Isaac and Jacob, then surely we are, at least to some extent, talking about race and about religion? I'll be honest...when I read your post a couple of months ago saying that being a Jew was absolutely nothing to do with race I was surprised (and resentful at the suggestion that thinking this way is racist in itself). But I'm happy to read your thoughts on it.
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Offline Jebediah

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1153 on: July 31, 2014, 01:20:13 pm »
So LIVE on SKY News.

I just watched Israeli forces bombing a Mosque repeatedly, the Mosque is right on the seafront.
Not a rocket or Hamas terrorist in sight.

A clear war crime, as deliberately targeting civilians is a war crime and shown live on TV.

The Sky reporter said he had no idea why they were bombing it but that they kept coming back and were repeatedly targeting the mosque.




Playing devil's advocate here of course but if there was a weapons cache inside the mosque, or a terrorist tunnel, why would you expect that the tv cameras would pick it up? Were there tv cameras inside the mosque?

Why do you assume that Hamas don't use mosques as military bases?
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Offline Jebediah

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1155 on: July 31, 2014, 01:30:56 pm »

^^Jebediah, I was struck by an interesting line in your post..."I am also a Jew (but I don't believe in God)..."...so what is a Jew then? I think yorkykopite would be interested in your answer (and it's pertinent to this thread because it raises a lot of related questions).

I actually think it has absolutely nothing to do with this thread but i will give you two examples of what it means:

For 1900 years, my ancestors (my parents parents, their parents, their parents and so on) have been praying to go and visit the Western Wall in Jerusalem. Every single day they prayed for it. Sometimes they simply never achieved it and at other times they were killed for their prayers. Today, if i go there - which i do regularly - it is a fantastic experience for me as a Jew. The fact that i don't believe, as religious Jews do, that Abraham sacrificed Isaac on that same spot, doesn't make a difference at all.

I really enjoy some of the cultural aspects of Judaism. For me, this means having a really nice dinner with my family on Friday evening, the Shabbat meal. I suppose the best comparison is Sunday Lunch back in the UK. It is something that i always did growing up with my family in Liverpool and something i love to do with my family. When i lived in the UK i worked until at least 5pm every Friday, making it very difficult to prepare for the Shabbat. Here in Israel Friday is essentially the weekend and we work on Sunday instead.

A lot of my non-Jewish friends who live here and are originally from the UK or the USA really miss all the excitement around Christmas time. It doesn't matter whether they believe in god or not.

What that has to do with this thread i don't know, but i am sure my booby trap will be revealed soon...
« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 01:38:23 pm by Jebediah »
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Offline XabiAlonsosBeard

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1156 on: July 31, 2014, 01:40:21 pm »
Playing devil's advocate here of course but if there was a weapons cache inside the mosque, or a terrorist tunnel, why would you expect that the tv cameras would pick it up? Were there tv cameras inside the mosque?

Why do you assume that Hamas don't use mosques as military bases?

One thing that has repeatedly troubled me during this conflict is the lack of evidence.

I've highlighted before that I think the IDF lie. Attempt to cover things up. For the interests of neutrality (and to stop the usual people bleating), I'd be loath to trust everything Hamas state too.

In general, I'm a cynic. I like things to be proven with good, reliable, objective evidence before I come to conclusions.

The comment about Hamas possibly using mosques as military bases. Again, we're dealing with an assertion here. I know Jeb wasn't making a direct accusation, rather asking for people to consider that his mosque question is not entirely beyond the realms of reality.

But, again, I ask for evidence before I say yes or no.

On this point, this is not a defence or in support of Hamas, but we're told that they're firing so many rockets a day, that houses are booby trapped, that they've misfired rockets into UNRWA schools.

Modern war is played out on our TV screens. We get to see what's happening. Speaking from the UK, I've seen footage of Hamas rockets being fired. It would be naive to deny it's happening. But to the extent the IDF claim? Where's the evidence?

Shell a school - "fire was coming from the vicinity". Where's the evidence? What does "vicinity" mean? Nobody seems to be asking these questions and pushing for the evidence.

We're told that there's loads of tunnels. Granted, some are targeted remotely. But others aren't. I've seen one IDF video of a tunnel. Where's the evidence of the vast tunnel network?

I also find some of the IDF evidence to be quite crude, and to be anything but evidence. Gimmicky cartoons. Regarding the rocket misfire allegation, the "evidence" consisted of an aerial street map with houses with circles drawn round them and lines drawn from the houses alleging where the recent misfired rockets ended up. Again, isn't this more of a claim than cold, hard evidence?

Again, to stop this being interpreted as an anti-Israel/IDF rant, I adopt such cynicism and doubtfulness in other aspects of life.

Not that they can be justified, in my opinion, I'd feel that the IDF and Israel would be on a stronger footing if they evidenced their claims a bit more strongly, and this might lessen the uproar against their actions.

To Jeb and Nicky, it might be that this evidence exists and might be more prevalent in the Israeli media than the UK media etc, but I'm just not seeing any real evidence, personally.
« Last Edit: July 31, 2014, 01:43:07 pm by XabiAlonsosBeard »
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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1157 on: July 31, 2014, 01:45:35 pm »
One thing that has repeatedly troubled me during this conflict is the lack of evidence.

I've highlighted before that I think the IDF lie. Attempt to cover things up. For the interests of neutrality (and to stop the usual people bleating), I'd be loath to trust everything Hamas state too.

In general, I'm a cynic. I like things to be proven with good, reliable, objective evidence before I come to conclusions.

The comment about Hamas possibly using mosques as military bases. Again, we're dealing with an assertion here. I know Jeb wasn't making a direct accusation, rather asking for people to consider that his mosque question is not entirely beyond the realms of reality.

But, again, I ask for evidence before I say yes or no.

On this point, this is not a defence or in support of Hamas, but we're told that they're firing so many rockets a day, that houses are booby trapped, that they've misfired rockets into UNRWA schools.

Modern war is played out on our TV screens. We get to see what's happening. Speaking from the UK, I've seen footage of Hamas rockets being fired. It would be naive to deny it's happening. But to the extent the IDF claim? Where's the evidence?

Shell a school - "fire was coming from the vicinity". Where's the evidence? What does "vicinity" mean? Nobody seems to be asking these questions and pushing for the evidence.

We're told that there's loads of tunnels. Granted, some are targeted remotely. But others aren't. I've seen one IDF video of a tunnel. Where's the evidence of the vast tunnel network?

I also find some of the IDF evidence to be quite crude, and to be anything but evidence. Gimmicky cartoons. Regarding the rocket misfire allegation, the "evidence" consisted of an aerial street map with houses with circles drawn round them and lines drawn from the houses alleging where the recent misfired rockets ended up. Again, isn't this more of a claim than cold, hard evidence?

Again, to stop this being interpreted as an anti-Israel/IDF rant, I adopt such cynicism and doubtfulness in other aspects of life.

Not that they can be justified, in my opinion, I'd feel that the IDF and Israel would be on a stronger footing if they evidenced their claims a bit more strongly, and this might lessen the uproar against their actions.

To Jeb and Nicky, it might be that this evidence exists and might be more prevalent in the Israeli media than the UK media etc, but I'm just not seeing any real evidence, personally.
Well the UN released a press release last week stating that they were very concerned as they had found weapons being stored in schools......

I guess that in most cases that the targets are based on intelligence.  Intelligence is always questionable, especially when it is being interpreted by the psychopaths in the Israeli armed forces.
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Offline The Gulleysucker

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1158 on: July 31, 2014, 01:50:56 pm »
Mais non?

http://news.nationalgeographic.com/news/2013/10/131015-iraq-war-deaths-survey-2013/

But yes.

Your link is for...

....War and occupation directly and indirectly claimed the lives of about a half-million Iraqis from 2003 to 2011, according to a groundbreaking survey of 1,960 Iraqi households....

My link, http://www.theguardian.com/world/2010/sep/23/iran-iraq-war-anniversary , is for the deaths in the Iran-Iraq war from 1980-88

....By the summer of 1982 Iraq was on the defensive and remained so until the end in August 1988. The death toll, overall, was an estimated 1 million for Iran and 250,000-500,000 for Iraq....

You said...
The US invaded Iraq and Afghanistan, murdering half a million plus people. That isn't as bad as anything those other bad, anti Israeli countries did.

The Iran-Iraq war clearly had a much worse death toll but seems largely forgotten about these days, and both Iran and Iraq at that time certainly hated Israel.



I don't do polite so fuck yoursalf with your stupid accusations...

Right you fuckwit I will show you why you are talking out of your fat arse...

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Offline RojoLeón

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Re: Palestinian Analogies ( was Re: Islamism)
« Reply #1159 on: July 31, 2014, 01:55:46 pm »
Crossed wires then, Gully.

And I'm not sure Israel or the US, were that unhappy with the wanton slaughter of the Iran-Iraq war. Israel even bombed a few Iraqi sites during the time

http://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Operation_Opera