Author Topic: Safe Standing Areas and Liverpool fans (Read 13769 times)

Rushian · « **on:** November 30, 2006, 04:08:42 pm »

Has the failure for any of the various campaigns to make ground against the establishment view that standing shouldn't return to the Premier League, been because Liverpool fans haven't been at the forefront?

There was understandable unease among much of the hardcore with the seemingly Manc-dominated Safe Standing campaign, particularly with the hypocritical "If it wasn't for the Scousers we could stand" ringing out from their own fans at games at the time. However the latest group to have a go at broaching this issue (Stand Up Sit Down) have a far more cosmopolitan make up. Unfortunately it still seems to lack that Red seal of approval and contribution.

It's been easy for far too long for those who run the clubs, the FA, the Premier League, the Football Licensing Authority etc to hide behind the Hillsborough Disaster as an excuse for not permitting standing in the top two divisions of English football.

But who are the experts on the disaster? None of those c*nts that's for sure. We're the ones who know what happened, we're the ones who know it was a failure of stewarding, a failure of policing, a failure of basic safety standards at the ground, a failure of the FA to ticket the fixture properly. It was a disaster caused by these factors and magnified by the presence of fences and pens.

We know it had nothing to do with terracing. And we have the legitimacy to tell them they're talking out of their arses and insulting the 96, and the hundreds injured and scarred for life, when they rush to use the Hillsborough Disaster as a defence shield whenever this topic arises.

The fences and pens are no longer around. Policing, stewarding and regular stadium safety checks have improved beyond comprehension compared to what was around in the 1980s.

Fans are allowed to stand in the lower divisions, fans can stand in other sports such as Rugby League and Union, fans can stand at gigs and concerts. There is clearly nothing inherently unsafe about standing or it would be banned wherever large gatherings of people come together to watch a sport/be entertained.

Research and development in Germany has even brought forward new standards in terraces with almost every club in the Bundesliga now having convertable terracing/seating.

There can be no legitimate reason for now not allowing clubs to install safe standing areas. The conditions aren't there that caused the disaster and won't return again. And fans aren't asking for whole terraces or forcing everyone to stand, but areas where those that wish to, can stand in safety.

So is it time for Liverpool fans to swing behind the latest campaign and even help lead it?

Terry de Niro · « **Reply #1 on:** November 30, 2006, 04:15:26 pm »

I believe the Kop could and should be made all standing. After Hillsborough they took all the fencing away from grounds, and I don't seem to remember too much trouble once they were removed.

Imagine the atmosphere we'd have if you could stand where you wanted..

Life · « **Reply #2 on:** November 30, 2006, 04:31:47 pm »

I've had a good look at a lot of the safe standing websites, and had a few debates with some of the people who - while not leading it, are certainly actively pushing it.

I keep coming back to:
people make mistakes
people will always make mistakes
Hillsborough wouldn't have happened - despite all those mistakes - if there were seats.

And can't get past that.

nidgemo · « **Reply #3 on:** November 30, 2006, 04:34:14 pm »

Quote from: Terry De Niro on November 30, 2006, 04:15:26 pm

I believe the Kop could and should be made all standing. After Hillsborough they took all the fencing away from grounds, and I don't seem to remember too much trouble once they were removed.

Imagine the atmosphere we'd have if you could stand where you wanted..

AFAIK though, "safe standing" areas (certainly of the german model) still have a seat area, and, I'd imagine, you still get allocated an area number, just like a current seat number...

Life · « **Reply #4 on:** November 30, 2006, 04:37:15 pm »

Quote from: nidgemo on November 30, 2006, 04:34:14 pm

AFAIK though, "safe standing" areas (certainly of the german model) still have a seat area, and, I'd imagine, you still get allocated an area number, just like a current seat number...

And that's the deal eh - what's wrong with standing in front of your seat? I've been on (in...whatever) the kop loads since it went seated....what've the best atmospheres got in common...we were standing for most or all the game.

gerrardspetal · « **Reply #5 on:** November 30, 2006, 04:37:18 pm »

I think the only standing areas should be behind the goals.

Conde · « **Reply #6 on:** November 30, 2006, 04:38:35 pm »

The atmosphere would be immense, I presume the atmosphere would be like CL games every game?

afc tukrish · « **Reply #7 on:** November 30, 2006, 04:43:59 pm »

Quote from: Terry De Niro on November 30, 2006, 04:15:26 pm

I believe the Kop could and should be made all standing. After Hillsborough they took all the fencing away from grounds, and I don't seem to remember too much trouble once they were removed.

Imagine the atmosphere we'd have if you could stand where you wanted..

Terry:

the "where you wanted" part of the equation might be a necessary concession to get a return to standing; if I understand the German set-up correctly, your "standing spot" corresponds with a convertable seat behind you, thereby giving the stadium some control over where you stand.

Gareth might know the specifics; think he's been to one of the Bundesliga stadiums with the convo seating/standing areas...

edit: Nidge beat me to this point, shocker...

Rushian · « **Reply #8 on:** November 30, 2006, 04:46:12 pm »

Quote from: Life on November 30, 2006, 04:31:47 pm

I've had a good look at a lot of the safe standing websites, and had a few debates with some of the people who - while not leading it, are certainly actively pushing it.

I keep coming back to:
people make mistakes
people will always make mistakes
Hillsborough wouldn't have happened - despite all those mistakes - if there were seats.

And can't get past that.

Too easy to just say they were mistakes - it was a fundamental breakdown in standards over a 80 year period which culminated in an appalling disaster which should have been put down as corporate manslaughter.

The conditions just aren't there anymore to allow anything like that to happen again - and once more we're not talking about vast open terraces with pens and fences.

Veinticinco de Mayo · « **Reply #9 on:** November 30, 2006, 04:48:23 pm »

Whereas I believe that standing areas can be made just as safe as seating areas I can't see Liverpool FC ever re-instating standing for fear of upsetting the relatives of the 96.

So, selfishly, if we can't have them I don't want anyone else to have them.

Floydy · « **Reply #10 on:** November 30, 2006, 04:59:05 pm »

I really sympathise with the Families of the 96 but it doesnt help when their spokesperson either Phil Hammond Or Trevo Hicks come our publicly and say they dont want it, It only adds weight to the argument that the terracing killed people. IT NEVER. We all know who is responsible and the list of culprits is as long as my arm. Its a cop out blaimng the terrace but as somebody else has stated it will never happen at Anfield again. Such a shame that our Great Club who have always been a workings man's club dont care about the average working man. They left survivors to be grilled in court rooms without any help. People who did noting wrong except go to a football match either tragically lost their life or those who survived were treated like criminals in court rooms. So much for liverpool FC being close to the fans?? what happened??? where did it all go wrong? Liverpool FC should have made the stand back in 89. They should have stood by the supporters but no. Plastic seats corporate boxes and a fanatical hardcore support that has somehow dwindled over te years. Football just isnt the same. And The club allowe us to take the blame. fuckin disgrace

Life · « **Reply #11 on:** November 30, 2006, 05:00:55 pm »

Quote from: Rushian on November 30, 2006, 04:46:12 pm

Too easy to just say they were mistakes - it was a fundamental breakdown in standards over a 80 year period which culminated in an appalling disaster which should have been put down as corporate manslaughter.

The conditions just aren't there anymore to allow anything like that to happen again - and once more we're not talking about vast open terraces with pens and fences.

I know that, but conditions today don't mean they'll still be there 5, 10, 50 years from now.
And people will make mistakes, standards can slip again, and the truth is (imo) that had everything that day been the same, but it was all seater...it wouldn't have been a disaster.

nidgemo · « **Reply #12 on:** November 30, 2006, 05:01:49 pm »

Quote from: Life on November 30, 2006, 04:37:15 pm

And that's the deal eh - what's wrong with standing in front of your seat? I've been on (in...whatever) the kop loads since it went seated....what've the best atmospheres got in common...we were standing for most or all the game.

Which is why I think safe standing areas are a must. The german safe standing areas are actually safer than standing in front of your seat, due to barriers in each row.

Floydy · « **Reply #13 on:** November 30, 2006, 05:02:45 pm »

Life- its an easy argument to say that mistakes can be made. The mistakes were made beacuse there was arrogance and a complete disregard for the working class community. Every fucker involved in the running of the Prem League and our club have shafted us and tried to let it pass through history. We dont fight for standing areas although it would be great but it juts highlights how we must continue to foght for justice and spread the truth about what happened it ,may happen again

Rushian · « **Reply #14 on:** November 30, 2006, 05:10:38 pm »

Quote from: Life on November 30, 2006, 05:00:55 pm

I know that, but conditions today don't mean they'll still be there 5, 10, 50 years from now. And people will make mistakes, standards can slip again,

I think that's an incredibly weak argument myself. Safeguards which weren't in place now are and are rigorously enforced. There would be no fences, no pens, no vast open terraces.

Quote

and the truth is (imo) that had everything that day been the same, but it was all seater...it wouldn't have been a disaster.

I think it might have been worse - you just need to look at the Eliis Park Stadium Disaster in 2001 to see that seats are no protection to disastrously managed crowds.

Redordead · « **Reply #15 on:** November 30, 2006, 05:15:54 pm »

My mate who is a City fan is one of the fellas involved in this and was also part of the original safe standing movement. He told me that one of the big issues that the HFSG had with the notion of safe standing was when they showed them pictures of the German idea and were dead against it due to the fact that were were perimeter fences. Think this was around 2001/2, but can't be sure.

Fowllah · « **Reply #16 on:** November 30, 2006, 05:16:25 pm »

Quote from: nidgemo on November 30, 2006, 05:01:49 pm

Which is why I think safe standing areas are a must. The german safe standing areas are actually safer than standing in front of your seat, due to barriers in each row.

that might be alright if the barriers were a bit further back to get more in, as long as there was enough room to get past. sitting would be a bit cramped but who would want to sit..

KiNki · « **Reply #17 on:** November 30, 2006, 05:16:59 pm »

I'm with life on this issue due to personal momemt.

i've been i season ticket holder for years since 86 and am/was fairly used to the swaying and frowing of the kop/used to getting caught on the crash barrier. But nothing like the last mersey derby. I got in fairly early grabbed a spec by infront of one of the crash barriers as per. by half two id been moved about 8 steps down and was close to the barrier infront of me now. made me nervous but no chance of moving elsewhere/ couldn't find an inch of concrete to stand my toes on never my the rest of my foot. people were standing on other peoples feet and the swaying was due to too many people losing balance cos they couldnt find foot space.

behind the goal police tried waving there arms to get those in this particular area to move further out to the wings...but for those jammed right in the middle - moving out was impossible.

anyway the match started - everton took the lead - within a minute robbie fowler equalised. then came the inevitable surge.

i was caught on the crash barrier along with several other people - i remember two teenage girls - to the left and a bloke to my right. we all got pinned on the barriers. among the cheers of joy that we'd equalized were screams. screams that will live with me forever - cos the people who were pinned with me were screamin in agony. the two girls next to me after a while fainted - my feet were dangling as i'd been pushed up on the barrier/across my ribs - i couldnt get a handgrip on the barrier to push myself back - so i resorted to booting the fuck out of the fella infront of me in the hope he could turn round and push me back.

the fella next to me was squashing a pair of kids no more than ten and they were both crying as their father tried in vain to push em back. and as much as this fella tried he couldnt move back off them.

after a while the kop fortunately swung back i dropped like a stone - i spent a while just sitting under the barrier on someones feet - my ribs were fucked and i was shaking. the two girls got passed over head. and the fella took his kids and slowly moved em away.

there were several people that got passed over head in the next few minutes. i know this was a regular occurance. i often mistook people fainting for being overexcited/drunk/heat/lack of grub. hillsborough and this game inparticualr showed it was thru excruiating pain. and if it could happen here on the kop, after everything that had gone on at hillsborough - i knew it could happen again, to any supporters at anymatch. All it takes is a mistake - too many people - too small a space.

i stopped singing no seats.

i know germany demonstates safe standing - but perhaps rightly or wrongly - i have a deep mistrust for british police/safety officers or who ever is charge of organising these things to get em right.

i dont have a problem with standing infront of your square yard of seat space.

a partridge in seat_5c · « **Reply #18 on:** November 30, 2006, 05:18:34 pm »

Quote from: Rushian on November 30, 2006, 04:08:42 pm

So is it time for Liverpool fans to swing behind the latest campaign and even help lead it?

no it fucking well isn't

why is this shit on here every other fucking week

Rhino · « **Reply #19 on:** November 30, 2006, 05:22:30 pm »

There are so many ways Hillsborough could have been avoided, even up to the point where the outer gates were open.

What is clear is that terracing did not cause the disaster in any way and it is debatable whether seating would not have made it worse by preventing those who escaped to the wings to have done so.

If terracing was so unsafe, it would have been banned immediately, not 6/7 years later when it suited those who had another agenda.

Rushian · « **Reply #20 on:** November 30, 2006, 05:27:10 pm »

Quote from: kiNki on November 30, 2006, 05:16:59 pm

i stopped singing no seats.

i know germany demonstates safe standing - but perhaps rightly or wrongly - i have a deep mistrust for british police/safety officers or who ever is charge of organising these things to get em right.

i dont have a problem with standing infront of your square yard of seat space.

I don't think anyone would disagree that the very, old decrepid open terraces allowed more scope for dangerous occurences to arise if safety standards weren't adhered to. But could you hand on heart look at the picture above of the modern German style terracing and say that bears any resemblance to what we all once knew? If anything it's a more safe version of what we currently have on the Kop.

nidgemo · « **Reply #21 on:** November 30, 2006, 05:28:07 pm »

Quote from: Robbiegoal on November 30, 2006, 05:16:25 pm

that might be alright if the barriers were a bit further back to get more in, as long as there was enough room to get past. sitting would be a bit cramped but who would want to sit..

The point is that only one person stande behind each barrier (one person per seat) it's not about "getting more in"...

That was the problem in the first place...

KiNki · « **Reply #22 on:** November 30, 2006, 05:31:16 pm »

hand on heart it doesn't look much different to the seats, a little steeper with slightly longer space infront. - easier for people to get up and go get their hot dogs

i dont understand what the saftey issue is with standing infront of the current seats is. apart from the kids at the back cant see. which is a gripe not a safety issue.

Maggie May · « **Reply #23 on:** November 30, 2006, 05:33:47 pm »

I'm a bit tired now and I'll post again tomorrow when I've got the papers in front of me, but I've read an engineer's report on the Leppings Lane end, and there were so multiple faults. From memory, barriers too low, barriers where you didn't expect them to be and not where you would expect them. Exits poorly marked. Escape gates ineffective.

None of those defects would be allowed to exist in a new safe standing area today.

jackh · « **Reply #24 on:** November 30, 2006, 05:37:43 pm »

The mentioning of concerts you make Rushian is an interesting one. I'm thinking of the larger concerts i've been too - U2 at the Millennium Stadium, Oasis at the City of Manchester, etc...and you go online or on the phone and state whether you want a seat or a standing tickets. At these such events of course 'standing' refers to the pitch area, and the seats are...etc...

Transfering this to a football ground would be very straighforward.

Imagine a two-tier, round, or rectangular shaped stadium - symmetrical for the ease of your imagination - the bottom tier could be standing all round, and the top tier seats. It would mean that those who want a seat get a comfortable position and space to themselves, and have tv-like angles from which to view the game, and those who want to stand and shout and sing take the bottom tier, close to the pitch, the players and the camera, locking the match in a fierce and lively atmoesphere.

For example, at Anfield you could have The Kop, The Paddock, Lower Anny Road, and the Lower of the mind stand as standing, and the three remaining upper sections as seating areas.

It would be fine for families and day trippers, or blokes taking their 8 year old son to the game regularly, and would likewise be ideal for the rest of us who want to be in the thick of the action. Having the seats at the top, and the standing nearer the pitch would also make for the best atmosphere.

gerrardspetal · « **Reply #25 on:** November 30, 2006, 05:40:43 pm »

Quote from: jackh on November 30, 2006, 05:37:43 pm

Having the seats at the top, and the standing nearer the pitch would also make for the best atmosphere.

That would be good. People then would be more inclined to (sing I think) when standing.

Fowllah · « **Reply #26 on:** November 30, 2006, 05:42:04 pm »

Quote from: nidgemo on November 30, 2006, 05:28:07 pm

The point is that only one person stande behind each barrier (one person per seat) it's not about "getting more in"...

That was the problem in the first place...

I understand i just thought maybe the legroom was a bit generous but maybe not.

Rushian · « **Reply #27 on:** November 30, 2006, 05:42:17 pm »

Quote from: kiNki on November 30, 2006, 05:31:16 pm

i dont understand what the saftey issue is with standing infront of the current seats is. apart from the kids at the back cant see. which is a gripe not a safety issue.

The problem that can arise is if someone does topple over and pushes on the person in front they then fall forward over their seat onto the person in front etc creating a rippling effect down the terrace. It's not unknown for people to break legs on the seat in front. This is why having an individual barrier for each row is safer as it prevents such accidents.

And we're not talking whole ends here but say 5000 places out of say a 60000 capacity.

courty61 · « **Reply #28 on:** November 30, 2006, 05:55:05 pm »

If they did bring it back though- it would be reserved seating- i.e. like seat numbers- so even going the game and singing with your mates will be difficult I would suspect.

I would be all for it- doubt the clubs would be though- it would drive the yuppies away who bring in a lot of money- buying food/shirts etc- and football wouldn't be the 'fashionable' sport it has become to these 'fans'.

Plus- you couldn't charge £30+ for a standing ticket- could you?

Joshytoohotty · « **Reply #29 on:** November 30, 2006, 06:10:57 pm »

The references to concerts is a good one.

I have been in the middle of a standing gig like at Glastonbury or Reading, right in the middle of the front area and it is in no way safe.

A crush in the same way as Hillsborough is unlikely due to the open space, but someone is going get killed in one of those gigs sooner or later.

I like the idea of safe standing, I think it's excellent and the german ground posted above looks perfect. But for me it's a non-starter, I can't see Arsenal for example being too happy at re-developing their brand new ground to account for this.

Rushian · « **Reply #30 on:** November 30, 2006, 06:15:16 pm »

Quote from: Joshytoohotty on November 30, 2006, 06:10:57 pm

But for me it's a non-starter, I can't see Arsenal for example being too happy at re-developing their brand new ground to account for this.

Hasn't stopped Bayern Munich already adding more safestanding after only being open for a year.

Joshytoohotty · « **Reply #31 on:** November 30, 2006, 06:18:36 pm »

Quote from: Rushian on November 30, 2006, 06:15:16 pm

Hasn't stopped Bayern Munich already adding more safestanding after only being open for a year.

If it happens in this country I will be amazed, absolutely amazed.

I agree with you, it would be a fantastic idea, but I just think it is far too convenient for clubs with the way it is at the moment.

Conde · « **Reply #32 on:** November 30, 2006, 06:26:17 pm »

Quote from: kiNki on November 30, 2006, 05:16:59 pm

I'm with life on this issue due to personal momemt.
....
i dont have a problem with standing infront of your square yard of seat space.

Bloody scary that, paints a vivid horrible image in your head.

Alf Garnett! · « **Reply #33 on:** November 30, 2006, 06:27:01 pm »

Quote from: Joshytoohotty on November 30, 2006, 06:18:36 pm

If it happens in this country I will be amazed, absolutely amazed.

I agree with you, it would be a fantastic idea, but I just think it is far too convenient for clubs with the way it is at the moment.

i think thats the way the majority of fans feel about it,if it will be safe tho',i'm sure most will be happy to see terraces return.

Withnail · « **Reply #34 on:** November 30, 2006, 06:27:18 pm »

The very fact that we can even talk about such an emotive issue is a huge step forward IMO.
A standing area behind the goal, with seating above, would probably be the best option, though i wouldn't be opposed in anyway to a traditional 'kop' end, as long as safety was paramount.

Joshytoohotty · « **Reply #35 on:** November 30, 2006, 06:37:35 pm »

Quote from: DAVO1 on November 30, 2006, 06:27:01 pm

i think thats the way the majority of fans feel about it,if it will be safe tho',i'm sure most will be happy to see terraces return.

More than happy.

It's not with the fans that the problem lies. I just don't see the club spending vast sums of cash re-developing the grounds when there is nothing in it for them.

Alf Garnett! · « **Reply #36 on:** November 30, 2006, 06:45:40 pm »

Quote from: Joshytoohotty on November 30, 2006, 06:37:35 pm

when there is nothing in it for them.

there has to be about a 50% return on increased capacity,i think it will take a long time if it was to come off-proving safety is the obstacle.

DaveLFC · « **Reply #37 on:** November 30, 2006, 06:49:33 pm »

I think safe standing is a great idea for the kop, we need to get some atmosphere in the game and this could be just the thing to do it. I stood in the old kop as a kid and it was scary at times.

However safe standing as someone else mentioned is safer than if you currently stand at Anfield, you'll have a barrier in front of you and because it will be designated standing I am sure you will tend to get a different type of fan in there.

so kop end lad · « **Reply #38 on:** November 30, 2006, 06:58:27 pm »

Mabye a standing section will be introduced when/if ever our new ground is built.

SwedenRed · « **Reply #39 on:** November 30, 2006, 07:15:19 pm »

Quote from: Rushian on November 30, 2006, 04:08:42 pm

So is it time for Liverpool fans to swing behind the latest campaign and even help lead it?

Your wasting your time. I dont think any campaign will get them to change their minds. Unfortunately, football in many minds have gone up-market...gone are the days of standing for 4 hours and pissing through your newspaper. I wouldnt mind standing again, just cant see it ever happening again.
This has all been spoken before... maybe not on here much, but totally pointless and a waste of time.