Author Topic: Are we punching above our weight?  (Read 20140 times)

Offline pyroparty

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #40 on: April 24, 2017, 02:38:35 pm »
Yes we are as it's a squad game not a first XI game.

But that's why we appointed the best over-achiever in modern football history to be our manager. People say Klopp is not a miracle worker; well if somebody told you when he took over that he's gonna take that group of players (fresh of not being able to beat the mighty Carlisle) to a European Cup final beating the mighty Dortmund along the way everyone here would be laughing their heads off.

With our financial resources we have no business being in Top 4 for entirety of this season - and yet again it's Klopp and his miracle work to make us the highest scorers in the league without Suarez, without Sturridge, without 20+ goals striker.

He's been over-achieving almost every year since he started at Mainz so from that perspective we should all be exhilarated he's steering our ship because this is just the start as he's nowhere near completing his squad. When he does it's truly gonna be rock'n'roll.

Christ, if ever theres a post that sums up how low we've sunk it's that, where getting to a Europa League final and being in the top 4 is deemed a "miracle".

Offline Chief Brody

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #41 on: April 24, 2017, 02:39:28 pm »
Nope. If we were in a legit title race with Kloppo this season then you'd be correct.

what?


Which bit is incorrect?

Offline SerbianScouser

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #42 on: April 24, 2017, 02:41:13 pm »
Christ, if ever theres a post that sums up how low we've sunk it's that, where getting to a Europa League final and being in the top 4 is deemed a "miracle".
Exactly, it shows how low Klopp's starting point was. This season he has already pushed us up to a Top 4 level in terms of goals and points, he's doing a great job in that regard. Now it's gonna be about building competition in our squad and making sure there's no drop-off in quality when first team players get injured.

Offline Coolie High

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #43 on: April 24, 2017, 02:42:06 pm »
Yes we are as it's a squad game not a first XI game.

But that's why we appointed the best over-achiever in modern football history to be our manager. People say Klopp is not a miracle worker; well if somebody told you when he took over that he's gonna take that group of players (fresh of not being able to beat the mighty Carlisle) to a European Cup final beating the mighty Dortmund along the way everyone here would be laughing their heads off.

With our financial resources we have no business being in Top 4 for entirety of this season - and yet again it's Klopp and his miracle work to make us the highest scorers in the league without Suarez, without Sturridge, without 20+ goals striker.

He's been over-achieving almost every year since he started at Mainz so from that perspective we should all be exhilarated he's steering our ship because this is just the start as he's nowhere near completing his squad. When he does it's truly gonna be rock'n'roll.

You're right for the most part but in regards to the resources if that's the case then how do Spurs and Arsenal do it?

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #44 on: April 24, 2017, 02:43:40 pm »
what?


Which bit is incorrect?

my post was in relation to the OP that asked the question.

Offline SerbianScouser

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #45 on: April 24, 2017, 02:44:13 pm »
You're right for the most part but in regards to the resources if that's the case then how do Spurs and Arsenal do it?
The same way we did it this season. By having good managers who have ability to build good teams and maintain their level. I think under Klopp we'll always be in Top 4.

Offline Bunter

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #46 on: April 24, 2017, 02:44:21 pm »
No, bigger wages and more money spent than Spurs and they have embarrassed us for the past 6 years. Not good enough points wise, forgetting about league position.

Offline El Lobo

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #47 on: April 24, 2017, 02:45:35 pm »
Again, I think people forget what the league form was like for the first couple of seasons under Rafa.
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #48 on: April 24, 2017, 02:47:46 pm »
The same way we did it this season. By having good managers who have ability to build good teams and maintain their level. I think under Klopp we'll always be in Top 4.

So 3 of the top 6 have no buisiness being there?

Offline Chief Brody

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #49 on: April 24, 2017, 02:49:40 pm »
my post was in relation to the OP that asked the question.

Fair enough. Soz.

Offline SerbianScouser

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #50 on: April 24, 2017, 02:56:36 pm »
So 3 of the top 6 have no buisiness being there?
Spurs for example have absolutely no business being where they are for the last two seasons. I think we all know about the well documented theory that wage bill relates to your position on the table which is true for the most part. But what that theory doesn't account for is elite coaching and Spurs are blessed to have by far the best young coach in the world. You can't put into words how good of a job he's doing for them since he took over.

Their squad is literally the same quality as ours but what makes a difference is that he selected a group of players that are extremely robust, don't get injured for the most part. He has the luxury of fielding his best XI for majority of games because they are the fittest group of players in the league.

I think we have the same level of coaching in our club but you can't overlook the fact Pocchettino had one year more to develop his group of players. For example they made improvement this season because hitherto they were erring on the side of being a tad too defensive and lately you see them almost reaching the holy grail which is conceding the least in the league and almost scoring the most. We need to sort out our defensive side of the ball to catch up with them.

Offline Midget

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #51 on: April 24, 2017, 02:57:10 pm »
Again, I think people forget what the league form was like for the first couple of seasons under Rafa.

First season sure, but we had over 80 points in his second season, which I think was his second best season for us. Also kept something like 11-12 consecutive clean sheets. Not sure this is a valid argument. In terms of concrete achievements Rafa's first three seasons here were his best.

Offline Gerry Attrick

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #52 on: April 24, 2017, 02:59:46 pm »
Spurs for example have absolutely no business being where they are for the last two seasons. I think we all know about the well documented theory that wage bill relates to your position on the table which is true for the most part. But what that theory doesn't account for is elite coaching and Spurs are blessed to have by far the best young coach in the world. You can't put into words how good of a job he's doing for them since he took over.

Their squad is literally the same quality as ours but what makes a difference is that he selected a group of players that are extremely robust, don't get injured for the most part. He has the luxury of fielding his best XI for majority of games because they are the fittest group of players in the league.

I think we have the same level of coaching in our club but you can't overlook the fact Pocchettino had one year more to develop his group of players. For example they made improvement this season because hitherto they were erring on the side of being a tad too defensive and lately you see them almost reaching the holy grail which is conceding the least in the league and almost scoring the most. We need to sort out our defensive side of the ball to catch up with them.

Have to disagree with this. Man for man they are better in almost every position on the pitch. Coutinho and Mane are the only players who would probably even get in their starting XI.

Offline Chief Brody

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #53 on: April 24, 2017, 03:02:18 pm »
Their squad is literally the same quality as ours

I'm not sure about that.  I think their squad reflects the extra time that Poch has been able to build compared to Klopp.

I think they'e just got a bit more depth.

Offline SerbianScouser

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #54 on: April 24, 2017, 03:04:13 pm »
Have to disagree with this. Man for man they are better in almost every position on the pitch. Coutinho and Mane are the only players who would probably even get in their starting XI.
Luckily football is a team game. People can get fascinated with individuals all they want but our first XI as a team is quite better than theirs. We showed it in two games we played against them. It's perfectly possible in sport to be better than someone but for that someone to be better than you against other teams in the league. That's the situation here.

Also their B team is a joke just like our B team. Their back-up CBs are Carter-Vickers and Wimmer. Their forward replacements are Sissoko, N'Kodou, Janssen and Lamela. Like I said Pocchettino intentionally selected robust players and made them so fit that he rarely ever has to use squad players. That's something we can only dream of.

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #55 on: April 24, 2017, 03:07:01 pm »
Christ, if ever theres a post that sums up how low we've sunk it's that, where getting to a Europa League final and being in the top 4 is deemed a "miracle".

Getting to a Europa League final and being in the top 4 shouldn't be deemed a "miracle". However, they are positive steps forward under Klopp. Bar 2013-14, this is our best season since 2008-09. That's 7 years ago. That's an eternity in footballing terms.

It still might not be good enough to get top 4 either. But it should be viewed as another step forward. A season of progress to add to the last 4-5 months of 2015-16 season. That progress isn't necessarily fast and it isn't necessarily in a linear trajectory. However, overall there is still progress. Enough to say that we aren't a million miles away from the likes of City, United, Arsenal and Spurs going into this summer.
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Offline Chief Brody

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #56 on: April 24, 2017, 03:14:11 pm »
our first XI as a team is quite better than theirs.


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Offline Gerry Attrick

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #57 on: April 24, 2017, 03:15:08 pm »
Luckily football is a team game. People can get fascinated with individuals all they want but our first XI as a team is quite better than theirs. We showed it in two games we played against them. It's perfectly possible in sport to be better than someone but for that someone to be better than you against other teams in the league. That's the situation here.


I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here to be honest. You said their squad is literally the same quality as ours even though they've had a lot of injuries and are way ahead in the table.

Offline joezydudek

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #58 on: April 24, 2017, 03:18:41 pm »
Spurs, Arsenal, Man City, Chelsea and Man U all have better squads than us IMO, but with all but one of those (who happen to be top of the league) having the extra demands of European football, it was hoped that we could make the most of a lighter schedule, which we have to an extent.
In short, I think how we're doing is pretty much par for the course all things considered.

Offline JackWard33

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #59 on: April 24, 2017, 03:19:36 pm »
Have to disagree with this. Man for man they are better in almost every position on the pitch. Coutinho and Mane are the only players who would probably even get in their starting XI.

There's a real gulf in back 5s. Not a single starter for us gets in their back 5.
Their squad on that budget is impressive management - levy is pretty good

Offline SerbianScouser

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #60 on: April 24, 2017, 03:19:58 pm »
I'm not sure what point you're trying to make here to be honest. You said their squad is literally the same quality as ours even though they've had a lot of injuries and are way ahead in the table.
Point is that they are a year ahead down the line of development and that's all. They're not ahead of us because they have a better squad. The only area where they're better than us is dealing with dross and that is down to coaching. It's a real possibility that Pocchettino might just be a better coach than Klopp, time will tell.

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #61 on: April 24, 2017, 03:20:56 pm »
There's a real gulf in back 5s. Not a single starter for us gets in their back 5.
Their squad on that budget is impressive management - levy is pretty good

Who's our best defender these days?

Offline Gerry Attrick

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #62 on: April 24, 2017, 03:23:08 pm »
There's a real gulf in back 5s. Not a single starter for us gets in their back 5.
Their squad on that budget is impressive management - levy is pretty good

They probably have the best set of back up full-backs in the league too. Trippier is very good, I'd have him here.

Offline stewy17

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #63 on: April 24, 2017, 03:23:52 pm »
Point is that they are a year ahead down the line of development and that's all. They're not ahead of us because they have a better squad. The only area where they're better than us is dealing with dross and that is down to coaching. It's a real possibility that Pocchettino might just be a better coach than Klopp, time will tell.

Can't agree with that really. in GK and defence their options shit all over ours, midfield they probably have better options too and Kane is a better option definitely than any of our strikers.

They have a better squad and certainly across the defence and in goal they have better players.

Offline Gerry Attrick

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #64 on: April 24, 2017, 03:30:23 pm »
Point is that they are a year ahead down the line of development and that's all. They're not ahead of us because they have a better squad. The only area where they're better than us is dealing with dross and that is down to coaching. It's a real possibility that Pocchettino might just be a better coach than Klopp, time will tell.

I think it is because they have a better squad. Let's compare how many appearances each first choice player has made for each team in the league this season;

Spurs Lloris (28), Walker (29), Alderweireld (24), Vertonghen (27), Rose (18), Dier (30), Wanyama (30), Dembele (24), Alli (31), Eriksen (31), Kane (24)

Liverpool Mignolet (24), Clyne (33), Lovren (25), Matip (25), Milner (32), Henderson (24), Wijnaldum (32), Lallana (27), Coutinho (27), Mane (27), Firmino (32)

The idea Pochettino has somehow constructed a team of robots that evade injury and play almost every game is just not borne out by facts at all. People on here like to bemoan our luck with injuries but it's certainly no worse than Spurs have had to deal with. If anything, we've been extremely fortunate. 4 of our best XI have played 30 matches and Mignolet would likely have done so too if he was not dropped for a while.

Offline Cpt_Reina

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #65 on: April 24, 2017, 03:31:46 pm »
Again, I think people forget what the league form was like for the first couple of seasons under Rafa.

Who cares, it was over a decade ago.

Different league now, different context.

Offline SerbianScouser

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #66 on: April 24, 2017, 03:32:18 pm »
They have a better squad and certainly across the defence and in goal they have better players.
Yet they can't beat us last 6 games and last time we met them we totally outclassed them.

There's no point in having more individual quality - and I'd agree that they do - when as a team H2H we are better , we showed that on the pitch against them where it matters. This is not tennis, this is a team game. However that doesn't count for that much when they are better equipped to deal with bottom 13 teams. That for me is down to coaching and having more time to develop the team.

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #67 on: April 24, 2017, 03:32:19 pm »
I was about to post yes because we don't have a strong squad. I was about to ask how can we possibly be a top 4 team with Mignolet, Lovren, Lucas, Klavan and Milner at left back playing regularly.

But look at our competition. Darmian, Young, Blind, Rooney, Lingard, and Fellaini have been playing regularly. We are at least at that level.

Gabriel, Walcott, Iwobi, Coquelin and Monreal are regulars for Arsenal.

« Last Edit: April 24, 2017, 03:47:30 pm by tommyLFC »
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Offline na fir dearg

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #68 on: April 24, 2017, 03:46:30 pm »
yes

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #69 on: April 24, 2017, 04:00:18 pm »
Yes but out of choice. We deliberately chose to go into the season with a threadbare squad.

Offline alonsoisared

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #70 on: April 24, 2017, 04:03:22 pm »
Depends how you look at it. With the squad we have I think top six or seven is about our level so if we finish top four Klopp has done a good job.

If you look at the fact that we're one of the biggest names in the sport, with one of the biggest worldwide fanbases, with masses of money, in a world famous stadium under one of the best managers in the world then no we absolutely aren't punching above our weight. This club has everything in place to be challenging for major honours every season, anything less should be regarded as a failure.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2017, 04:05:36 pm by alonsoisared »

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #71 on: April 24, 2017, 04:05:04 pm »
our attack punch above their weight usually
our defence punch below their weight usually

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #72 on: April 24, 2017, 04:08:40 pm »
Yes due to the fact we didn't improve the squad enough when we had the chance to do so both last summer and in January.

Our first team can go toe to toe with any team in the league but once you drop to the bench and squad players they're nowhere near as good as the starting 11 players so they can't come in the team and do a similar job. When you go from Lallana being injured to playing a totally different player in Can, playing the exact same formation and expecting the same output from him when his skillset are so different. Mane our one player with pace gets injured and you're moving our first choice striker to a position where he's been shocking and you're bringing in a 22 year old inconsistant striker who doesn't even have any understanding with Coutinho or Firmino.

That's the main reason we're punching, its because our squad is nowhere near deep enough but we can't use that as an excuse since the manager and owners had the chance to rectify that but both were happy with a thin squad and a negative net spent. Our position in the league is more to do with our great start to the season when everyone was fit and firing.

Offline SteveLFC

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #73 on: April 24, 2017, 04:09:07 pm »
These comparisons with Spurs are pretty valid. They are a team most definitely punching above their weight considering the size of the wage bill in comparison to their peers. The main difference between us and them is twofold. They have a solid defence that on the whole can be relied upon. They also have had lots of luck with regard to injuries and that has allowed them to remain consistent.

They are one or two seasons ahead of us as well in terms of development. What it should do though is demonstrate that you don't necessarily have to throw tons of cash at a squad to be able to compete. Of course it is easier and quicker that way but not realistic for all clubs like us. Just the way it is!

Offline Isaacsways

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #74 on: April 24, 2017, 04:09:32 pm »
We've been in the top 4 once in 8 or 9 seasons.. ONCE.... anyone who thinks we're title challengers are living in a fantasy world, i'm including this season in that... Klopp is squeezing everything out of a "squad" that should be 6th or 7th.. There is some real dross in the squad. Of course we're punching above our weight..Klopp knows it too...

Offline Isaacsways

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #75 on: April 24, 2017, 04:11:26 pm »
These comparisons with Spurs are pretty valid. They are a team most definitely punching above their weight considering the size of the wage bill in comparison to their peers. The main difference between us and them is twofold. They have a solid defence that on the whole can be relied upon. They also have had lots of luck with regard to injuries and that has allowed them to remain consistent.

They are one or two seasons ahead of us as well in terms of development. What it should do though is demonstrate that you don't necessarily have to throw tons of cash at a squad to be able to compete. Of course it is easier and quicker that way but not realistic for all clubs like us. Just the way it is!

Their defence isn't solid, it's much better than solid, none of our defenders would get a sniff of their first XI, neither would any of our midfielders, Coutinho and Mane would be the only ones.. says it all really.

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #76 on: April 24, 2017, 04:14:50 pm »
Again, I think people forget what the league form was like for the first couple of seasons under Rafa.
2005-06 we finished on 82 points.

That would have won us the title last season.
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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #77 on: April 24, 2017, 04:16:04 pm »
FSG have given up think they did a long time ago, they were banking on FFP to allow us to compete at the top was fucking naive  :rollseyes.  Klopp appointment is to pretty much see if he can work miracles. Not an ounce of ambition at the club to be honest.  We are a big club wallowing in self pity, With owners who have no clue how to get us back to the top.  How many managers are they going to run through till they see they are part of the problem.  They are not football people they are learning on the job even after 7 years what fucking chance do we have?  Failed to build a competent structure putting the right people in place.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2017, 04:18:13 pm by Greatness »

Offline SerbianScouser

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #78 on: April 24, 2017, 04:17:41 pm »
Also, Pocchettino reached Top 4 in his second season with 70 pts. Klopp in his second season has 66 with 4 games to go and let's not forget Top 4 teams had a mare last season compared to this one where they pretty much got their act together. Every which way you look at it we are on a really, really good way. That's all that matters for me.

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Re: Are we punching above our weight?
« Reply #79 on: April 24, 2017, 04:18:40 pm »
Who's our best defender these days?
Probably Matip and he is a level below Jan & Toby (spelling their last names is difficult as fuck)
Finished at the age of 26. The Mike Tyson of football.

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