Author Topic: What Happens Next!- Liverpool FC and FSG  (Read 11371 times)

Offline The 92A

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Re: What happens next
« Reply #40 on: March 12, 2017, 12:16:10 PM »
A pretty good read but a) it's predicated on a straw man - I'm yet to see any actual evidence on here or elsewhere of fans calling for Klopp to be sacked, or doing anything more than complaining that the same problems from previous managers haven't been fixed (something the OP themselves does when talking about squad strength); and b) it doesn't really tell us anything we don't already know. Some more senior players will be moved on at the end of the year - probably Sturridge, Sakho and Lucas for starters - and who we buy will depend on where we finish. If it's in the Champions League spots then FSG will probably spend big like they did in 2011 and 2014, if its in the Europa places it'll be less big and we'll be relying on the kids to come through.

I'd be interested in how this fits in with people's idea of Klopp though. A lot of fans have claimed since he came that his teams rely on promoting youth from below and so it would be natural that the club wouldn't spend hugely. If there's another summer where the transfer columns are in the black and Klopp claims he got the players he wanted, does the responsibility lie with him or FSG if things go wrong?

As for the history, I've been disappointed with missing out on players too, but I do think the failure of the board and scouts has been exaggerated a bit. Leeds (not to mention Valencia or Parma, both of which were European mainstays for a while) is enough of a cautionary tale to explain why previous owners were sometimes reluctant to splash out too much. With regard to FSG, most of the players in that list weren't for sale or they wanted to go somewhere with more money or Champions League football. How is it FSG's fault about Konoplyanka or Teixera for instance? Everyone misses out on players - Fergie and Wenger each have long lists of players they wanted but didn't get - and it's not like we haven't made big signings (ten £20m players since they arrived) or signed great players at the same time. It's just that we're competing against at least three teams with far bigger pockets than ours.
It's good that you've raised some discussion and I'm glad someone has because one of the strengths of the OP is that it doesn't fall into hyperbole about FSG but questions whether their strategic approach to running the business is a good fit to running our football club and irrespective of where you stand on that it's this question, it's that which is at the heart of the piece not the level of dissent about Juergen Klopp's tenure as manager, so the article is hardly predicated upon a 'straw man'. Only as a way of introduction does E2K look at a the 'madness' of a situation where sections of the fanbase, no matter how small, are questioning the suitability of a manager who is one of the best managers in the world and a brilliant fit for Liverpool. And it follows that the aim of the piece isn't really to predict what is going to happen in the close season but to question whether that approach will be the best thing for both Liverpool FC and ironically as a knock on effect FSG.

However you go on to the heart of what is being argued in the second half of your post. There is no denying that the history of football you can point to foolish attempts to use money to take the 'next step' and that has ended up with the well documented disasters such as Risdale at Leeds United but for every Real Madrid, Barcelona, Microsoft or Apple there are far more failures than successes, the principal should never be that a bold investment strategy is in it's self bad, or good for that matter; or conversely, that caution is inherently good or bad because that will always depend on the concrete situation the football club or business is in.

I think that is what makes E2K's OP so good because he argues compellingly why, at the present, for Liverpool football Club despite having a world class manager, who believes in development rather than just buying superstars, that an over cautious approach to investment will make a hard job impossible. In fact he goes further and questions whether the aim of FSG really is to push onto the top tier of world football or to be happy with an investment that gives a good return because it was bought so cheaply and was so badly run.

I'd certainly argue it's possible for Liverpool to get back on our perch at the top of European elite while being run sensibly, with one of the worlds greatest managers who fits us like a glove but that would require the owners to make a conscious decision to do that and if they trust Klopp back him, with Spurs that would be a pipe dream but because of our historical fanbase etc we have that possibility whether we have the will is another matter but the oportunity won't be there for ever. That is the question we will see the answer to because no matter how much you develop players, no matter how great the managers football philosophy is, you can't do what we want if you only have quality within the first eleven because that handicaps the manger so much as to make his task impossible. That is the experience under Benitez, Rodgers and now Klopp, a few injuries to the first team squad effects us disproportionately to our rivals, who we also having to compete with at a disadvantage to start with. If Klopp who is indisputably one of the managerial greats fails, it's doubtful we'll get another manager of his quality and our window of opportunity will be gone. When things are so competitive standing still is not an option, you go forward or backwards.

Offline cowtownred

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Re: What happens next
« Reply #41 on: March 12, 2017, 12:35:29 PM »
Hard to disagree with any of that 92A.

Offline b_joseph

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Re: What happens next
« Reply #42 on: March 12, 2017, 12:51:31 PM »
The NBA trade deadline ended a fe weeks back and there were arguments about which team/teams should throw their chips in the middle and take a run at the title. Namely, the Boston Celtics...who find themselves having a great season but also have assets that would allow them to acquire pretty much any available top tier talent.
Some got frustrated with them for not going ''all in'' to win a title this year. And some understood that the likelihood of winning this year or next meant that it was better to hold on to your assets as be patient.

Its an interesting dilemma because you can't predict if you will be good next year let alone multiple years down the line.  But if you are reckless with those assets, not only could you fail to win now but you could put your future in jeopardy. All for the short term high of ''ambition''.

The word ambition bothers me in football. Its a nice way of just saying ''spend some fuckin money'' ( cockney twang of course )...and its right. The most ambitious clubs, the clubs with the desire to dominate all in front of them will often spend the money to do so.
But I find it funny, not in a haha sense but strange funny that one of the things that we lauded over Klopp at the beginning ( he doesnt buy stars, he makes them ). Could now be used against him or the club in an effort to make an excuse for perceived or real failures on the pitch.
I don't disagree with either side of it because nothing is 100% in life but it highlights the fact that nobody actually cares what is done to make a team better. Just as long as it is made better and then they will reverse engineer from that success to explain how that method was the correct method all along.

I don't think ( not to say anyone here does ), that not spending vast sums of money or understanding that we absolutely cannot compete financially with the top 5-6 teams in the sport. That, that means we are not ambitious. I think it is realistic to try and succeed the way that we appear to be trying...even though, yes, the word realistic can often be a cover for lack of ambition amongst the people who are happy to toe the line.

I vehemently agree that it is a defining summer. But at 31 years of age, I've agreed with so many people about that over the years that it does bring a slight furrowing of the brow, knowing that there are good odds that another coach will be given this task in a few years time.
None of us will admit it and most will be lambasted for it. But at some point, maybe we accept that out title challenges will be one off/lightening in a bottle situations like 2014, from now on. Personally, I'm not ready to do that but I wouldn't fault those who are or have been.

Offline Butcher Knife Roberto

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Re: What happens next
« Reply #43 on: March 12, 2017, 12:56:43 PM »
The worst thing is that we, the fans, have known all about this for years. Brilliant piece of writing that captures it perfectly.

I'll add my own tuppence worth. There is one thing holding the club back; its history. The past 25 years have seen 4 clubs - United, Chelsea, Arsenal and City - emerge from the colossal 30-year shadow that was LFC to re-write the modern game and create their own history. At the same time LFC has been dining out on its own storied past, the current custodians being very aware of what the club has achieved.

Talking about history is one thing, creating it is another. I wonder which is the most appealing for those custodians? I certainly know which appeals the most to this fan, and it isn't 2 trophies in 14 years, or near misses in the league. It isn't breaking even in the transfer market, or appeasing stockholders in the US.

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Re: What happens next
« Reply #44 on: March 12, 2017, 01:26:09 PM »
In my previous post I neglected to mention that the supporters themselves be included as factors in the Club's ambition. We have to be a spoke in this wheel equally driving this will to succeed. It might seem an impotent, nebulous and fruitless endeavour at any given time, particularly when there's nothing to play for, but we've seen the support this particular fan base can muster when the chips are down and the absolute game changers the 12th man can be. The aim would be to extend that to a season-long frenzy of maddening fanaticism, the kind Jürgen would be tenting his tracky dacks at every single game in response to, and see if we can get this old bird flying again.

Offline Jfor83

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Re: What happens next
« Reply #45 on: March 12, 2017, 01:31:28 PM »
I agree that Lovren can definitely be improved on, but my point is that it's debatable how much of a priority upgrading Lovren is compared to upgrading LB and adding 1-2 forwards plus a midfielder.

In other words:

Would I be delighted if we got a CB of Van Dijk's calibre in to upgrade on Lovren? Yes.

Would I be happy if the bulk of the budget was spent on a CB to upgrade Lovren whilst ignoring (or adding average options) at LB/CM/LW? No.

I understand what you're saying and I think most people would agree with you, but I think every position in the team can be improved on and we should be getting the best player available to us, whatever their position. I also believe we should be trying to improve the first eleven as this in turn will improve the squad.

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Re: What happens next
« Reply #46 on: March 12, 2017, 01:39:20 PM »
Talking about history is one thing, creating it is another. I wonder which is the most appealing for those custodians? I certainly know which appeals the most to this fan, and it isn't 2 trophies in 14 years, or near misses in the league. It isn't breaking even in the transfer market, or appeasing stockholders in the US.

My hope - as someone who has been supportive of FSG as our owners - is that what they have been saying about breaking into the Chinese market is a serious driver for the stockholder angle. LFC won't be any sort of attractive club for that market unless we start winning things.

Offline Al 555

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Re: What happens next
« Reply #47 on: March 12, 2017, 01:50:36 PM »
The thing I don't get is our obsession with 'World Class managers'.

Obviously a top manager is a bonus but surely it should be the icing on the cake. That extra percentage that transforms a good side into a great side. You look at the England Rugby Union team and Eddie Jones has done a terrific job. The thing is though he has taken a good team that was winning 3 out of 5 or 4 out of 5 in the six nations and made them virtually unbeatable at the moment. The thing is though he has only been able to do that because everything was already there, it just needed tweaking and fine tuning.

It is a similar scenario to what happens at Chelsea were a new manager inherits a quality squad of players and just tweaks it and fine tunes it. When we were successful that is what happened here. The likes of Bob or Joe didn't have to be world class managers who had been successful elsewhere. They benefited from taking over a world class structure that needed tweaking and fine tuning. We were the best run Club in the World and it just needed men with the real intelligence and nous to tweak things keep us ahead of the pack. They didn't inherit hugely imbalanced squads that needed gutting every few seasons.

For me our decline has coincided with our over reliance on the manager. We do well when our managers beat the odds and over achieve. Unfortunately that isn't sustainable so we have an exceptional season followed by seasons of par. As I said for me your manager should be the icing on the cake. At Liverpool we tend to take managers to our heart and then burden them with impossible expectations. When they cannot over achieve season in season out we lose confidence in them and it goes tits up.

Personally I think our problem is that exceptional managers are like a putting a sticking plaster over a sore. For a while everything looks fine but unless you address the underlying problems then the end result is inevitable. The problem as I see it is that we have ceased to be a well run Club from a Football perspective. For me this predates the present owners and goes back to the early 90's.

Imagine what would happen to us if we lost Klopp. It would be like Sevilla losing Emery or Southampton losing Pochettino except both Clubs actually improved. They did so because both Clubs are incredibly well run from a footballing perspective and a really top manager is just the icing on the cake. I get the impression that what is holding us back is that a top manager doesn't get to add that extra few percentage points that does an 'Eddie Jones' because that extra edge is wasted covering up problems within the structure of the Club.

If you look back at say Ged's time or Rafa's time then the general reading of the situation is that they were the problem. If Ged's team were only more adventurous or if only Rafa's team could of put away the park the bus teams and performed in the League like they did in Europe. For me it is much simpler imagine either of them taking over from Bill or Bob. Imagine them inheriting an extremely well run Club with a great structure and a squad that only needed tweaking and fine tuning. Or for that matter Brendan or Jurgen taking over a side that only needed tweaking.

There is a general perception on the forum that this is a pivotal summer with FSG at a crossroads. A perception that if FSG are more ambitious and back Klopp then everything will fall into place. I am not so sure. Ask yourself this say we make the top 4 and FSG get outside investment that gives us a huge transfer kitty. Would you trust us to have the guile, the nous and the contacts to pull off the kind of transfer coups that would take us to the next level ?

The irony is that our windows when we have gone big in terms of expenditure have been amongst our worst. We do okay when we are cherrypicking players that the manager rates from smaller Clubs primarily Southampton but when we try and make brave innovative moves we tend to fall fat on our face. The reality is that cherrypicking players from your rivals will only get you so far, analysing players that are already plying there trade here generally means you overpay for decent to good players with the odd Mane shaped exception.

The problem is that if you wait for players to be near enough certainties based on stats then you are likely to be in a very long queue and you only get exceptional players if the top Clubs pass on say a Mane the way United did. What you get is a squad of decent to good players that has cost you a huge amount in transfer fees and you end up in a situation were you end up overpaying them because you don't have the confidence in your scouting network to replace them or improve on them.

That for me is the difference between a recruitment strategy based on analysis and one based on scouting. Analysis allows you and everyone else to see which players have already broken through whereas scouting allows you to see the players about to breakthrough. For me apart from 05-07 we have been stuck in a cycle were we accumulate a team of good players but don't have the nous to recruit the game changers.

If you inherit a mis-matched squad of differing abilities then it is quite easy to create a team full of good players. The problem is that you end up against a glass ceiling. The only way to breakthrough that ceiling is to replace your good players with great ones. To go from a Didi to an Alonso from a Crouch to a Torres.

The only way to do that is to get in before the more established teams. If we had waited for Alonso or Torres to become established World class players with exceptional numbers then we wouldn't of been able to recruit them. We bought them on the cusp.

I agree with the OP and a number of posters about this being a pivotal season but for me it is more about getting our recruitment right rather than FSG's ambition even if their ambition is important. For me it is more about having the football intelligence to see that Torres was being wasted on the wing at Atletico, that Masch was far better than West Ham's bench and that Alonso could cope with the hustle and bustle of the Premier League. No amount of poring over stats will buy you that knowledge.
« Last Edit: March 12, 2017, 02:04:00 PM by Al 555 »
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline Pistolero

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Re: What happens next
« Reply #48 on: March 12, 2017, 01:57:32 PM »
Excellent addendum by 92A...this is indeed a window of opportunity and one that due to shifting sands and the changing affiliations of worldwide footy fans will probably never be open to us again....what surprises me is how popular we still are globally, a testament to how all-conquering we once were I suppose ...but the reality is its almost (gulp) 30 years since we last won the title and memories of us regularly gracing Europe are also beginning to fade. In terms of re-claiming our success and keeping/developing our international following it's in all likelihood now or never.
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Offline a fuckin idiot

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Re: What happens next
« Reply #49 on: March 12, 2017, 02:33:45 PM »
Great OP. Great replies al and 92A.

We're hampered by our history? What about our theme tune, our banner song, our rallying cry?

...With hope in our hearts and we'll never walk alone. Who wants to be alone? Not many. But this accidentally saddles us with hope as an​accidental byproduct of our togetherness. What's one of the main features of our fanbase - year after year after year? Yes, hope.

And while hope dominates success has to be a bystander.

Offline Upinsmoke

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Re: What happens next
« Reply #50 on: March 12, 2017, 02:42:47 PM »
Interesting post Al. I agree to some extent, though if a world class manager is the icing on the cake then how do Chelsea win the league under Mourinho one year and fail disastrously the year after with the same one? It's still the same club run well.

For me FSG are probably the happiest owners in the world. They hired a charismatic manager who the fans immediately took to, they're spending money on the playing squad which roughly reflects our league position and the value of the club is rising all the time. People often say, well why sack Brendan and the hefty payout that went with it if they don't want to win, why hire Klopp if they don't want to win? Simple, if Klopp can win things then that's a bonus for FSG, as long as he guides us to league finishes that reflect what's spent on the playing squad then brilliant. Also Klopp actually prints money, people tune in to listen to him, they come to Anfield to see him. The appointment was half "well look how he did with dortmund with fuck all we'll have some of that" and "Klopp will make us money even if he wins fuck all". I don't even have any doubts. now about them only giving a fuck about raising the value of the club. We say the same thing every year about the summer winow, but you only need to look at the summer window where we signed Balotelli to see no fucks were given about pushing forward and improving on the pitch.

Offline SerbianScouser

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Re: What happens next
« Reply #51 on: March 12, 2017, 02:59:20 PM »
There is no better and a efficient way for a club to grow than appointing a world-class manager.

That's what the excitement should be about , not that he can momentarily make us competitive for biggest honors by a flick of the switch - because he can't - but that he can push this club onto a higher level by making a series of sound footballing decisions and by doing his thing which is installing a culture of winning mentality that will permeate throughout the club and demand high standards from every single LFC employee. That is the process we are witnessing right now and unfortunately for some there is no substitute for patience. The effect of this process won't be so evident in the early phase but more so when managers' era gets closer to it's peak - we're still nowhere near that moment.

World-class managers if they really are so if acting in the long-term interest of the club will inevitably push that club onto a higher level. Ferguson, Wenger, Benitez are just some of the examples of what it looks like when a club grows while being led by competent football people who install the right culture and showcase consistency of good quality football decisions.

We have much more room to improve than some of our rival clubs, when you're already at a point of having a top squad there's only so much you can improve. To get there we'll need imo a series of consecutive CL qualifications during which we'll need to continue with excellent recruiting work we've done over the last two summer windows and if we achieve this with every year our margin of error will be bigger and we'll have a bigger financial capacity to absorb inevitable transfer mistakes that are simply a nature of the business.

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Re: What happens next
« Reply #52 on: March 12, 2017, 03:08:07 PM »
Brilliant post E2K.

Definitely have to agree with this summer being a defining one to surpass all others in the last 27 years, especially if we get into the CL so there can be no excuses for lost revenue effecting spending.

Time to spend big or go home methinks.

Offline Hash91

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Re: What happens next
« Reply #53 on: March 12, 2017, 03:56:28 PM »
Fantastic mate one of the best things Ive read about Liverpool in the last few years. Those that may be intimidated by the size of this. Do your selves a favour, make yourself a drink relax and slowly savour a great writer writing about Liverpool Football Club and the worries that concern us.

Did exactly that! What a cracking post E2K, needs to be stickied on this forum. I was literally nodding with every line that you wrote. Could not have put that better. Thanks for this!


Offline Al 555

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Re: What happens next
« Reply #54 on: March 12, 2017, 06:21:39 PM »
Interesting post Al. I agree to some extent, though if a world class manager is the icing on the cake then how do Chelsea win the league under Mourinho one year and fail disastrously the year after with the same one? It's still the same club run well.


Players stop listening. After 2 or 3 years players have heard everything a manager can say. You either have the super coach route were coaches do 2 or 3 year stints at the top Clubs or you keep evolving the squad.

As a goateed Spaniard once said if you cannot change the mentality then you change the player.
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline Buenasnoches

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Re: What happens next
« Reply #55 on: March 12, 2017, 07:13:24 PM »
A great and, above all, necessary OP
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Offline alvaro

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Re: What happens next
« Reply #56 on: March 12, 2017, 10:24:00 PM »
Football wise I feel we have a great manager, good enough first XI to qualify for CL but a bench that is not even Europa League material.
Off the pitch we basically have a top 6 structure.

I remember circa 2011-15 when everybody wanked over the wage bill, as a justification for Liverpool failures ignoring the fact that Spurs have finished above us every season bar the one when Suarez became elite and Sturridge played like world class. Now the argument can not be taken seriously given that Spurs are very likely to finish  top 4 for the fourth time in 8 years.  I think the problem is more the ineptitude of the owners than the fact that we cant spend 90 million pounds on a player and I also think we got very lucky with the Klopp deal.

My cause of optimism is this new EA lad. Not so much because he comes from the video game world but because he is a Liverpool fan at heart and will want to succeed. A very important skill is not so much being very good at something but precisely knowing that you are not very good at something and being capable of surrounding yourself with people who do. We have a clearly intelligent guy who wants us to win trophies. That is a good combination even if he doesnt know too much about football.

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Re: What happens next
« Reply #57 on: March 12, 2017, 11:23:33 PM »
Yet another fantastic post E2K. I always end up feeling a little wiser when I've finished one of your pieces.

And I thoroughly agree with the sentiments expressed. For the club to merely be content in treading water is dangerous and it's up to the owners and the Director of Football to show they mean business.

We've got the top class manager and we've seen the potential of what can be achieved, now it's the owners move. They better not disappoint.......

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Re: What happens next
« Reply #58 on: March 12, 2017, 11:57:25 PM »
Good man, E2K.

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Re: What happens next
« Reply #59 on: March 13, 2017, 10:58:35 AM »
Thats a fabulous piece of writing that is mate.  :wellin

The back end of the last paragraph is something i have mentioned too & can't wait to see what develops.
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Re: What happens next
« Reply #60 on: March 13, 2017, 11:29:27 AM »
Brilliant post - top notch.

And it put a lot of stuff in perspective for me. Whether it intended to or not, it moved me an inch away from being pro-FSG ;D especially with regards the Anfield Road End (which admittedly they haven't said no to).

Great writing.
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Re: What happens next
« Reply #61 on: March 13, 2017, 01:32:18 PM »
Well written indeed E2K, and more then decent replies from Al and 92A.

I agree that we can remain sensibly run without breaking the bank and tempting the fate of Leeds, but we should not be too afraid of splashing some cash to improve the squad and get the manager who he wants.

Both can be done.

And if/when they are we will be able to get back on our perch and push the others out of our way.
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Offline Yiannis

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Re: What happens next
« Reply #62 on: March 13, 2017, 01:56:46 PM »
Seriously talented indeed. Whenever E2K posts here, and unfortunately it's not that often, you MUST take notice and read what he says.

Personally I have low hopes for the upcoming summer(given what we have seen in the past) but it's definitely defining for the club and FSG as owners.
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FSG are prepared to back Klopp with as many as 5/6 high profile signings, with more dead wood shipped out in the summer.

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Re: What happens next
« Reply #63 on: March 13, 2017, 02:25:25 PM »
Like my man Redknapp would say, while uncontrollably winking and blinking, Triffic!
And scary at the same time, as the wheels may come off with just some slight misjudgment.

Offline Vinay

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Re: What happens next
« Reply #64 on: March 13, 2017, 02:26:57 PM »
Football wise I feel we have a great manager, good enough first XI to qualify for CL but a bench that is not even Europa League material.
Off the pitch we basically have a top 6 structure.

I remember circa 2011-15 when everybody wanked over the wage bill, as a justification for Liverpool failures ignoring the fact that Spurs have finished above us every season bar the one when Suarez became elite and Sturridge played like world class. Now the argument can not be taken seriously given that Spurs are very likely to finish  top 4 for the fourth time in 8 years.  I think the problem is more the ineptitude of the owners than the fact that we cant spend 90 million pounds on a player and I also think we got very lucky with the Klopp deal.

My cause of optimism is this new EA lad. Not so much because he comes from the video game world but because he is a Liverpool fan at heart and will want to succeed. A very important skill is not so much being very good at something but precisely knowing that you are not very good at something and being capable of surrounding yourself with people who do. We have a clearly intelligent guy who wants us to win trophies. That is a good combination even if he doesnt know too much about football.
That is a brave optimistic forecast about the EA lad. I am not too sure myself.

Offline cowtownred

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Re: What happens next
« Reply #65 on: March 13, 2017, 03:00:28 PM »
Football wise I feel we have a great manager, good enough first XI to qualify for CL but a bench that is not even Europa League material.
Off the pitch we basically have a top 6 structure.

I remember circa 2011-15 when everybody wanked over the wage bill, as a justification for Liverpool failures ignoring the fact that Spurs have finished above us every season bar the one when Suarez became elite and Sturridge played like world class. Now the argument can not be taken seriously given that Spurs are very likely to finish  top 4 for the fourth time in 8 years.  I think the problem is more the ineptitude of the owners than the fact that we cant spend 90 million pounds on a player and I also think we got very lucky with the Klopp deal.

My cause of optimism is this new EA lad. Not so much because he comes from the video game world but because he is a Liverpool fan at heart and will want to succeed. A very important skill is not so much being very good at something but precisely knowing that you are not very good at something and being capable of surrounding yourself with people who do. We have a clearly intelligent guy who wants us to win trophies. That is a good combination even if he doesnt know too much about football.

It's your last sentence that is the fearful part.

Offline redk84

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Re: What happens next
« Reply #66 on: March 13, 2017, 04:20:09 PM »
Fantastic OP.
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Offline alvaro

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Re: What happens next
« Reply #67 on: March 13, 2017, 05:07:31 PM »
That is a brave optimistic forecast about the EA lad. I am not too sure myself.

Actually it is a bit too optimistic, what I meant is that we will stop fucking up deals  like it was described in the OP not that he will became our Johan Cruyff.

Offline Byrneand

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Re: What happens next
« Reply #68 on: March 13, 2017, 06:06:53 PM »
Magnificent piece of writing and I agree with the conclusion - this summer will probably tell us everything about FSG as owners.

For me the takeaways were:

1) Get rid of high cost mediocrity who are not in the long term plan - Allen, Enrique, Toure, Skrtel, Alberto... Benteke and Balotelli.
2) The pool of players you can attract without C/L is lower so don't bring in players you don't want in the squad with a 5-year view. E.g. don't waste capital.

So this year the ability of Liverpool to operate in the transfer market will largely be dictated if we make top 4 or not.

The wage budget must of reduced in 2016/2017 (at least inflation adjusted) e.g. flat is down when everyone else goes up 10% which leaves scope on that side, capital was preserved and then CL qualification means you have extra cash to spend on players and the quality of player wanting to join increases.

I think the discussion on how FSG and Klopp act if Liverpool don't get CL is more important. We'd obviously all love them to flash the cash, but if it were your personal money what would you do - you basically only get a return on your investment if you can dislodge one/two of Chelsea, Man U, Man city, Arsenal and Spurs.. and full caveat - there's no guarantee (probably 51%:49%) that the players you buy for a higher price will deliver.

... the alternative is keep your cost base low, do enough to be mildly competitive (as I'd say our squad is at the moment) and then hope that the stars align for whatever reason and you get the CL cashflow from the existing pool of players.

As I say, I know what I want them to do... but not sure what I'd do.
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Offline 4pool

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Re: What happens next
« Reply #69 on: March 13, 2017, 06:10:58 PM »


If we accept this proposition, then, provided the team retains the kind of form we saw against Arsenal over the next couple of months, there’s really nothing to see here. But “where we are at” is something about which the supporters can do nothing. Having in and around the 5th largest wage bill isn’t up to us (then again, maybe it’s for the best that it isn’t). Likewise, you can be sure that if we had our way Anfield would already be a genuine behemoth of a stadium, the type Klopp no doubt envisions when he says things like “I believe in atmosphere…I believe it’s a big, big part of the game, a big part of the joy…the decisions are made in the small moments, in the detail, and atmosphere is more than a detail but it makes everything easier”. But it’s not up to us; instead, it’s up to people who say things like this:

If these are the kind of people who have run Liverpool for the past quarter of a century, and it certainly seems that way, then no wonder the club fell behind. The Premier League was in its infancy when Manchester United began redeveloping Old Trafford. Between 1995 and 2006, the ground’s capacity would increase from roughly 44,000 to 76,000. That work began 22 years ago, in the early days of the Premier League, the Sky television deal, the Champions League and the riches they would bring for clubs like Manchester United. Another rival, Arsenal, would later build a new 60,000-seater stadium which opened in 2006. Now Chelsea, Manchester City and Tottenham are announcing stadium projects which will bring their own capacities over the 60,000 mark, and yet over two decades after Old Trafford’s capacity began its transformation to 76,000 seats we have Liverpool’s chief executive stating that “somewhere between £60m and £70m” to bring Anfield’s capacity up to 60,000 is “not a smart investment for the business”.

It seems to me that we’re still in a place where the people who run the club see football as just another type of business where the same rules of risk apply as they do in any other. Ayre’s replacement, Peter Moore, whose CV highlights include positions with Microsoft, Sega and EA Sports, is unlikely to view it any differently. Well I’m no business expert, but you don’t have to be “the Fernando Torres of finance” (in fact, it’s probably better if you’re not) to know that, in football, the risk is in not spending money if you want to be successful. That doesn’t mean you have to chuck it around like confetti, just be prepared to meet the opportunity cost when it comes along.



Alex Miller‏ @alexmiller73


@LFC still working towards a new Anfield Road End, taking capacity towards 62,000, officials announcement possible in the summer.


And also:

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/spor...rpool-training-ground-kirkby-melwood-12708234

Revealed - What Liverpool's new Kirkby training complex will look like
New images show what the Reds' new proposed training ground will look like at Kirkby


This is what Liverpool's new state-of-the-art first team training complex will look like when it is built next to the club's academy in Kirkby.

The plans for a new £50m Liverpool training base at Kirkby - incorporating the Academy and the first team - will go out to public consultation today.

Residents and businesses in Kirkby will get the opportunity to view the proposals in detail and discuss the redevelopment of the Reds’ Academy site with members of the project team.

Representatives from LFC, Knowsley council as well as planning and construction experts, will be available for questioning at Northwood Community Centre in Kirkby from 2pm until 8pm.

Jurgen Klopp has been keen on seeing his first-team join up with the academy, and the move, which is expected to be completed in time for pre-season training ahead of the 2019/20 season, will see the Reds leave their historic Melwood training ground.

You can view the CGI images of what the new training ground is to look like in the video above.



So the owners look like they are investing in the club with the new training ground and it looks promising they will finish the Anny Road end bringing capacity up.

What do we want?
We want it all!

When do we want it?
We want it now!
 ;)
Either we are a club of supporters or become a club of customers.

Offline Pistolero

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Re: What happens next
« Reply #70 on: March 13, 2017, 06:23:27 PM »
What do we want?
We want it all!

When do we want it?
We want it now!


a ridiculously reductive interpretation of the OP....
Wir müssen von Zweiflern an die Gläubigen zu ändern

Offline 4pool

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Re: What happens next
« Reply #71 on: March 13, 2017, 06:39:04 PM »
a ridiculously reductive interpretation of the OP....


Not the OP.

Supporters in general.  :P

Look at any transfer thread..how many players supporters want, how many of our own they think are shit and need replacing.

We want it all. Win every match ( and then still take shots at players). Draw or lose, it's worse.

If another club has someone better, why didn't we get him.

If another club spends more, why didn't we spend more.

Leave Anfield, then there's Anfield 4 Ever.

Stay at Anfield and up capacity, well someone else has 72,000 and others will be in the 60's..we should have more. (Sounds a bit Everton like, as they want their proposed dock stadium to have more seats than Anfield)

But then again, i'm an arle arse and seen this for years and years.

We're back to having a good manager who knows how he wants us to play. We can only register 25 players, other than U21's, so we'll sell some and bring some in. As we do every summer. It's not about price tag, it's about getting the right ones who fit Jurgens system. We've spent little sums and got great players. We've spend tons on players who weren't up to it. We'll spend tons more. We just need to get it right more often than not.
My 2p worth.  :wave
Either we are a club of supporters or become a club of customers.

Offline Dave D

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Re: What happens next
« Reply #72 on: March 13, 2017, 07:55:34 PM »
Not the OP.



Why quote the OP then?

You could have written that abomination of a post without dragging E2K into it.

Offline 4pool

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Re: What happens next
« Reply #73 on: March 13, 2017, 08:03:35 PM »
Why quote the OP then?

You could have written that abomination of a post without dragging E2K into it.

I'll let you work out why. Thought it self explanatory myself.
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Offline God's Left Peg

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Re: What happens next
« Reply #74 on: March 13, 2017, 08:11:52 PM »
Brilliant post - top notch.

And it put a lot of stuff in perspective for me. Whether it intended to or not, it moved me an inch away from being pro-FSG ;D especially with regards the Anfield Road End (which admittedly they haven't said no to).

Great writing.

Yeah I am inching away from being pro-FSG recently. Although the OP has not necessarily accelerated that process for me, it has consolidated my feelings on the matter. They need to step up now. No excuses.
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Re: What Happens Next!- Liverpool FC and FSG
« Reply #75 on: March 16, 2017, 12:03:55 PM »
Here here, great bit of writing.


The best I've seen on here for ages. It was well argued and wise, in my view.


We will see this summer from FSG. What Klopp needs to do I think is similar to that big Summer Gerard Houillier had where he signed Hyppia and Henchoz and brought in Smicer as well. And Westerveld I think.


The equivalent cost to sign 4-5 really good players will now be......who knows.....£100+ million.


There is a hope that it was only Klopp who stopped the spending last summer. After Gini and Mane were signed (excellent signings we have to say) perhaps he didn't want too many new faces or he couldn't get the ones he wanted.


Let's see the speed and ambition of our signings this summer, and then discuss. Now we will have to make our moves for Klopp, otherwise Guardiola, Conte and pals will disappear into the far distance.







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Offline whiteboots

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Re: What Happens Next!- Liverpool FC and FSG
« Reply #76 on: March 24, 2017, 08:57:03 AM »
 A very good, and well argued opening post.

The answer to “what happens next?” is much what you have said. A performance on the pitch around fifth.

I believe that ownerships are like managers. They do a job. Do not expect anything more than their capabilities.

FSG bought us as a financial investment they thought undervalued, which by sound management would appreciate. It has. Job done.

Some make adverse moral judgements on Abrahamovic and Mansour. Each to their own. But they like football, their objective was to consolidate a personal and corporate power base respectively, and enhance that by sporting glory. The latter has never been part of FSG’s agenda.

The stadium issue continues to frustrate, and predates FSG back to the Taylor Report. As a Club we have always been, since then, spectacularly behind the curve. Man U led the way, Arsenal followed, West Ham seized an opportunity, Chelsea and Spurs have spectacular stadium solutions pending. Everton will significantly close the gap when they move to  Bramley Moore. Spurs and Chelsea will play entire seasons at 90k capacity Wembley. We have managed a new main stand that cost more than the 70k Millenium stadium.

From our point of view FSG’s work is done, from their point of view there is plenty of windfall cash to come with very little financial demands on them.

Klopp is the man for the job, someone to stick to and with. My concern is that this season, Comte will be deemed a success, from Mourinho, Wenger, Pochettino, Klopp, Guardiola and Ranieri, at least half will be deemed failures, and Koeman may not even make the EL slot, but go on to manage Barcelona.

My point being that we currently have the best roster of top  managers that the English top flight has ever seen. They are winners. But most cannot be winners here. They will move on. We may want Klopp, but if we cannot compete in the transfer and wage market for the best, how long will he want us for?
« Last Edit: March 24, 2017, 09:14:43 AM by whiteboots »