Topic: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)

[didi]

Commanding keeper, Commanding centre half, Ball winning Midfielder and a 20 goal a season striker....its a new spine we need and then add the ingrediants

[Anfield89]

Deja Vu

[JG6]

I've been thinking a bit about this since Monday night and I'm actually of the opinion that we aren't any better than we were last season, and that's a huge worry.

Last season, as this, we were capable of incredible highs (City, Dortmund, Chelsea, United) and awful lows (Watford, Newcastle the two that really stand out) but ultimately we fell short because we lacked sufficient quality and mentality to perform consistently. I don't see how this season is any different at all. Again, we are brilliant at times (Chelsea, Spurs, Arsenal) and atrocious at others (Burnley, Swansea, Hull, Leicester) but I don't believe the overall quality of our squad has improved enough to be satisfied with where we're heading.

Let's look at the squad;

Mignolet - same as last season
Clyne - same as last season, if not actually slightly worse in terms of form this season
Matip - perhaps a slight improvement on Sakho, but it's marginal
Lovren - same as last season
Milner - good first half of the season, very poor since xmas. Not a full back
Henderson - having a good season, slightly up on last year
Wijnaldum - inconsistent, sometimes brilliant (Spurs), sometimes awful (Leicester)
Lallana - Great for first three months but poor since xmas and way down on productivity again
Mane - the stand out - great season
Coutinho - atrocious since he got back from injury, brilliant before it. Not doing enough
Firmino - Bright start and works hard but doesn't offer anything special at the moment

Can - awful season
Lucas - shouldn't be our 3rd choice centre half at all
Klavan - started brightly but found out a bit since
Origi - disappointing season bar one good spell, hasn't kicked on
Strurridge - still Sturridge
Moreno - not had many chances but not contributed at all
Karius - quietly optimistic he'll come good but hard to argue his spell in the first team was anything but shambolic

So I reckon of those who were here last season we have 2, maybe 3, who have improved and plenty who have stood still or gone backwards. Of the new boys, Mane has been a huge success but I must admit I'm less than convinced about Matip and I personally don't think he is any better than a fully fit Sakho.

Last season we ended it thinking we needed a goalkeeper, a left back, a centre back, a central midfielder, a wide forward and a striker. I think we still need all of those players. So where is the progress?

I know we have more points than we did at this stage last season but unless something drastically changes very quickly we are still not going to finish in the top four and that's another wasted season. We seem to do the same thing over and over again, regardless of manager, regardless of players, and I'm losing faith that it's going to change any time soon.

Edit: this isn't a dig at Klopp, he can only work with the players he's allowed to buy and the players aren't good enough. He improved a lot of players when he first came in but I think they've got as good as they are going to get, so now he needs better. He's not blameless, I think he's made some poor decisions in recent months, but he is our one hope.

[killer-heels]

What do you think was the thinking with the Mane substitution?

[Anfield89]

What do you think was the thinking with the Mane substitution?

He switched to a back 3 and pushed Clyne and Moreno forward. Put Origi up with Firmino.

[Gerry Attrick]

What do you think was the thinking with the Mane substitution?

Substitutions are definitely not Klopp's forte, I think that's fair to say.

[killer-heels]

He switched to a back 3 and pushed Clyne and Moreno forward. Put Origi up with Firmino.

Yeah but why Mane? Why not put Mane at wing back? Clyne wasnt going to get much out of Fuchs. So why not give Mane a sole job to run at them?

Did he give up? Did he bring him off because he disnt believe we would do anything so saved him from injury?

[007.lankyguy]

Who were the big horrible bastards in Klopp's dortmund? It's something that really isn't that big of an issue and such a lower league/old school idea. We need better tatcics/coaching for games against sides that sit deep and counter and improved player quality. Then it's probably a better plan for the winter congestion, two games in a week.

Klopp said we weren't prepared for Leicester. We had two weeks to prepare for that game, that isn't good, that should be the big thing people look at and be concerned about. What were we doing in those two weeks for our game plan to be more of the same and exactly how Leicester wanted us to play? And then we had to change our shape at half time to try and combat a Leicester side playing how they play as if they'd shocked us.

The best teams have the best players and best managers, not the snidest.

You're just kidding yourself. Having aggression and fight and even snide is an idea that exists at every professional level. Tactics only get you so far. Being underhand is helpful at times, fighting for a result and winning your battles is helpful all the time and the game against Leicester was a great showcase of how we're lacking in this area. See how many issues we had with second balls and throw ins. See how we failed to appeal for big penalty shouts in the second half. See how Lucas continually fails to block off Vardy as he starts to make his run in behind. See Mignolet's completely passiveness outside of his six yard box.  See how fucking easily they score their third goal.

Our ability to fight for and grind out a result is, generally speaking, way below what it should be. We don't have to have 'horrible bastards' but the fact that we have a team of choirboys works against us. Our squad doesn't yet have the ruthlessness and bite that top teams have and we suffer for it in certain games.

[Funky_Gibbons]

Substitutions are definitely not Klopp's forte, I think that's fair to say.

Look at our bench most games and there's no game changers on there. Last we at least had Benteke who scored a few after coming on as a sub.

[killer-heels]

Look at our bench most games and there's no game changers on there. Last we at least had Benteke who scored a few after coming on as a sub.

Yeah but why take off Mane? Why not Clyne or Lucas?

[Gerry Attrick]

Look at our bench most games and there's no game changers on there. Last we at least had Benteke who scored a few after coming on as a sub.

There have been a few occasions this season where we have had a couple of options on the bench and he's left it way too late to do anything. Didn't bother bringing Origi on until the 83rd minute in the first leg at St Marys and didn't introduce him until the 78th minute of the second leg. Definitely the weakest area of his management in my opinion.

[Anfield89]

Yeah but why Mane? Why not put Mane at wing back? Clyne wasnt going to get much out of Fuchs. So why not give Mane a sole job to run at them?

Did he give up? Did he bring him off because he disnt believe we would do anything so saved him from injury?

No idea, fear of getting caught again, maybe felt Mane hadn't done enough or with Lallana and Mane off saving them for Saturday maybe more accurate.

[Funky_Gibbons]

Yeah but why take off Mane? Why not Clyne or Lucas?

I was talking about why Klopp’s substitutions in general are quite poor, part of that is no strength or quality on the bench.

I’m not sure why Mane was substituted, I was surprised when it happened too. To be honest after those subs I couldn’t get my head around what we were supposed to be playing. It was meant to be three at the back but Can was forward more than when he was in midfield, Milner was on the right at times with Clyne, it was a bit of a mess.

[Funky_Gibbons]

There have been a few occasions this season where we have had a couple of options on the bench and he's left it way too late to do anything. Didn't bother bringing Origi on until the 83rd minute in the first leg at St Marys and didn't introduce him until the 78th minute of the second leg. Definitely the weakest area of his management in my opinion.

OK I was looking at the lack of impact from his substitutes, I agree his in-game management has been poor most games. One or two substitutions per game and usually late in the game, it’s very odd.

I’m still surprised players like Ojo and Wilson weren’t integrated into the team/squad earlier in the season to prepare them for Mane’s absence. It would have made far more sense for one of them to come into the team in January, with their directness and pace, and kept Lallana in midfield where he was performing well. Instead we ended up shifting Lallana into the forward line and had three players all wanting the ball played to feet.   

[jillcwhomever]

Yeah but why take off Mane? Why not Clyne or Lucas?

I am guessing here, but after Vardy left his mark on him at the beginning, Mane's first touch went to pot. I am just wondering if maybe it was a precaution as Mane definitely seemed to have problems with his touch. The way injuries have been, maybe he felt he was best coming off in the circumstances. After all Origi and Woodburn came on after that, so it wasn't like he wasn't still trying to get a goal.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

You're just kidding yourself. Having aggression and fight and even snide is an idea that exists at every professional level. Tactics only get you so far. Being underhand is helpful at times, fighting for a result and winning your battles is helpful all the time and the game against Leicester was a great showcase of how we're lacking in this area. See how many issues we had with second balls and throw ins. See how we failed to appeal for big penalty shouts in the second half. See how Lucas continually fails to block off Vardy as he starts to make his run in behind. See Mignolet's completely passiveness outside of his six yard box.  See how fucking easily they score their third goal.

Our ability to fight for and grind out a result is, generally speaking, way below what it should be. We don't have to have 'horrible bastards' but the fact that we have a team of choirboys works against us. Our squad doesn't yet have the ruthlessness and bite that top teams have and we suffer for it in certain games.

Spot on mate. In short I think we lack physicality. To my mind the only occasions I think we have looked reasonably defensively secure this season is when we've had a spine of Lovren, Matip, Can, Wijanldum and Henderson, but whenever we've used that midfield trio it has damaged our attacking play in return because we've lacked the clever movement Lallana provides us from that area of the pitch.

It's a fine balance that we're yet to master because we don't have the right options to do so. I'm convinced that, along with one more top-class attacking option, adding height, defensive nous and physicality will be the first thing in Klopp's mind to correct this summer, just as it was for Rafa in the summer of 2005. It could be in the shape of a Crouch, a Sissoko, an Agger or a Reina; preferably a mixture of all!

[Chris~]

You're just kidding yourself. Having aggression and fight and even snide is an idea that exists at every professional level. Tactics only get you so far. Being underhand is helpful at times, fighting for a result and winning your battles is helpful all the time and the game against Leicester was a great showcase of how we're lacking in this area. See how many issues we had with second balls and throw ins. See how we failed to appeal for big penalty shouts in the second half. See how Lucas continually fails to block off Vardy as he starts to make his run in behind. See Mignolet's completely passiveness outside of his six yard box.  See how fucking easily they score their third goal.

Our ability to fight for and grind out a result is, generally speaking, way below what it should be. We don't have to have 'horrible bastards' but the fact that we have a team of choirboys works against us. Our squad doesn't yet have the ruthlessness and bite that top teams have and we suffer for it in certain games.

So do you think that's the only issue or tactics/coaching as well?

[Coolie High]

We don't need more height and a bit more physicality wouldn't go amiss but it's not really the most pertinent issue here,  we sign Brandt or we sign Dahoud or we sign Paredes we instantly become better but it won't be due to the physicality they bring, which they don't really it would be due to their quality, technique skill control and pace.

[Clint Eastwood]

What on Earth happened to Marko Grujic? Wonder if he'd get a look in with the current state of our midfield.

[JG6]

You're just kidding yourself. Having aggression and fight and even snide is an idea that exists at every professional level. Tactics only get you so far. Being underhand is helpful at times, fighting for a result and winning your battles is helpful all the time and the game against Leicester was a great showcase of how we're lacking in this area. See how many issues we had with second balls and throw ins. See how we failed to appeal for big penalty shouts in the second half. See how Lucas continually fails to block off Vardy as he starts to make his run in behind. See Mignolet's completely passiveness outside of his six yard box.  See how fucking easily they score their third goal.

Our ability to fight for and grind out a result is, generally speaking, way below what it should be. We don't have to have 'horrible bastards' but the fact that we have a team of choirboys works against us. Our squad doesn't yet have the ruthlessness and bite that top teams have and we suffer for it in certain games.

Agree with this, EVERY top side has an aggressive streak in them. Pep's Barcelona had Puyol, Alves and Busquets. Madrid recently have had Ramos, Pepe, Marcelo. Arsenal's invincibles had Vieria, Lauren, Gilberto. Chelsea have Luiz, Matic, Fabregas, classic Ferguson teams had Scholes, Neville, Keane.

You need guys who will go over the edge to win, when Vardy left one on Mane early on Monday not one person in our team thought 'right, it's on here' - we just rolled over. We need a couple of nasty bastards.

[killer-heels]

I am guessing here, but after Vardy left his mark on him at the beginning, Mane's first touch went to pot. I am just wondering if maybe it was a precaution as Mane definitely seemed to have problems with his touch. The way injuries have been, maybe he felt he was best coming off in the circumstances. After all Origi and Woodburn came on after that, so it wasn't like he wasn't still trying to get a goal.

It just seemed an odd sub. To me it looked as if he was protecting Mane and conceding the game was gone. We were not very good after it went to 3-1 either and I was hoping for some sort of fight back.

[jillcwhomever]

It just seemed an odd sub. To me it looked as if he was protecting Mane and conceding the game was gone. We were not very good after it went to 3-1 either and I was hoping for some sort of fight back.

I don't think he was conceding the game he brought on two attackers, we just had a night where we fell short overall.

[jillcwhomever]

What on Earth happened to Marko Grujic? Wonder if he'd get a look in with the current state of our midfield.

Grujic has just returned to training after injuries, looking forward to seeing him play again.

[killer-heels]

I don't think he was conceding the game he brought on two attackers, we just had a night where we fell short overall.

I thought if he was going to 3 at the back he could have taken Clyne off, brought Origi on and put Mane on that right hand side. We didn't need 3 centre backs and Clyne against Vardy. Maybe even put Clyne on the right of the 3 centre backs to counteract Vardy's pace.

Obviously subs are not an exact science but we were bad after we got it at 3-1. They looked tired, they clearly got nervous after we scored and we had plenty of time.

[007.lankyguy]

So do you think that's the only issue or tactics/coaching as well?

It's rarely one issue. Tactics were a problem too and I think Klopp has to adjust to a certain extent, especially given how reliant he's made the current system on our attacking play and pressing. We don't play a coordinated, 'compressing' back line like we did under Rafa so any openness in midfield (which gives the opposition time to play a pass) will expose the lack of pace at the back, especially if the full backs are pushed up. Individual performances were also an issue - Firmino losing the ball seven times through poor touch is not good enough by any stretch and Mane being dispossessed seven times in 65 minutes is very poor indeed. When you have that, on top of Coutinho's sloppiness, then we're always going to expose ourselves to counter attacks, especially when we've weirdly allowed the midfield to become so open when we lose the ball, which wasn't happening earlier in the season.

The truth is it's usually a combination. The third goal's a great example. Partly tactical (five players immediately out of the game at the point of transition and the defence not knowing how to play Vardy), partly decision making (Matip opting to play the initial pass too late, after Ndidi has seen it and adjusted), partly concentration (Lallana and Can both switch off) and partly lack of fight (Clyne is far too passive with Mahrez and arguably should just smash him off the pitch, Lallana is way too passive with Fuchs as well).

[Yiannis]

Mane was dreadful (possibly his worst game for us) against Leicester and because Klopp couldn't change the whole team, Mane was just one of those players subbed.

[mkingdon]

We need steel without a doubt. Only Henderson ever shows glimmers of this and we are suffering a lot due to this.

In terms of recruitment to suit Klopp's style, imo, we need a few players who will lead and battle when needed and beyond that pace. Regardless of position it is essential.

We need a starting CB (with pace), a LB, a proper DM, a pacey winger, maybe two of those and a 20+ goal striker, with pace who defends from the front.

Easy, no? 

[CallumLFC]

You're just kidding yourself. Having aggression and fight and even snide is an idea that exists at every professional level. Tactics only get you so far. Being underhand is helpful at times, fighting for a result and winning your battles is helpful all the time and the game against Leicester was a great showcase of how we're lacking in this area. See how many issues we had with second balls and throw ins. See how we failed to appeal for big penalty shouts in the second half. See how Lucas continually fails to block off Vardy as he starts to make his run in behind. See Mignolet's completely passiveness outside of his six yard box.  See how fucking easily they score their third goal.

Our ability to fight for and grind out a result is, generally speaking, way below what it should be. We don't have to have 'horrible bastards' but the fact that we have a team of choirboys works against us. Our squad doesn't yet have the ruthlessness and bite that top teams have and we suffer for it in certain games.

Yep pretty much.

I look at a side like Atletico and can't help but envy the courage and fight they have. We've got soft lads all over from back to front and it's so disheatening.

Really do miss the group of players we had between 2005-2009. Rarely were they lacking in that department.

[CallumLFC]

We need steel without a doubt. Only Henderson ever shows glimmers of this and we are suffering a lot due to this.

In terms of recruitment to suit Klopp's style, imo, we need a few players who will lead and battle when needed and beyond that pace. Regardless of position it is essential.

We need a starting CB (with pace), a LB, a proper DM, a pacey winger, maybe two of those and a 20+ goal striker, with pace who defends from the front.

Easy, no? 

Milner has a steel about him. He would have fit in well with the group of players we had under Rafa. He just ends up looking bad because he's surroounded by all these soft fuckers like Mignolet, Lallana, Firmino, Coutinho, Wijnaldum, etc. I could go on and on.

[Armchair expert]

It's just very worrying that after so long in charge Klopp seems unable to set up a defence to withstand any sort of pressure.
When under Jurgen have we been under the cosh for most of a game and come away with the 3 points?
We can all slag off Mourinho and Chelsea for being dour at times (and they are to be fair) but fuck me what wouldn't I give for a professional backs to the wall display and to come away with a fluky 1-0 .
But deep down we all know that isn't possible with these bottlers, unfortunately for Jurgen he has kept faith with too many of them when the Sevilla game is all you needed to know about the mentality of most of them.
Bill Shankly famously kept faith with too many players in 1970 which resulted in the cup defeat to Watford the difference is those players would have still ran through walls for the fans and manager it's just that they were past it.
Klopp needs and hopefully understands that it's not only the clubs season that is in decline but also his reputation as a top top manager that will come under fire soon unless he addresses these issues in the summer, as this season is way past saving.

[CallumLFC]

It's rarely one issue. Tactics were a problem too and I think Klopp has to adjust to a certain extent, especially given how reliant he's made the current system on our attacking play and pressing. We don't play a coordinated, 'compressing' back line like we did under Rafa so any openness in midfield (which gives the opposition time to play a pass) will expose the lack of pace at the back, especially if the full backs are pushed up. Individual performances were also an issue - Firmino losing the ball seven times through poor touch is not good enough by any stretch and Mane being dispossessed seven times in 65 minutes is very poor indeed. When you have that, on top of Coutinho's sloppiness, then we're always going to expose ourselves to counter attacks, especially when we've weirdly allowed the midfield to become so open when we lose the ball, which wasn't happening earlier in the season.

The truth is it's usually a combination. The third goal's a great example. Partly tactical (five players immediately out of the game at the point of transition and the defence not knowing how to play Vardy), partly decision making (Matip opting to play the initial pass too late, after Ndidi has seen it and adjusted), partly concentration (Lallana and Can both switch off) and partly lack of fight (Clyne is far too passive with Mahrez and arguably should just smash him off the pitch, Lallana is way too passive with Fuchs as well).

What positions do you think we need to upgrade for next season? Love to know how you see it. I have it down as four or potentially five. All signings can't be a success. That goes without saying. We need at least three of those to be a success and players of a very high standard. If i had to pick the three in which we hit the jackpot, it would be CB, CM and a keeper.

                                                xxxx

Clyne                  xxxx                                   Matip/Lovren            xxxx

                                           Henderson

                     Lallana                                       xxxx


Mane                                                                              Coutinho

                                      Firmino/xxxx


Starting forward i'm undecided on. Yes i know we've hit 55 goals this season but 6 goals from our striker is concerning. Firmino can be verging on world class when in top form but that is for potentially half of our league campaign. The other half he can be either the wrong fit at the time or out of form - easily bullied, poor touch and his lack of pace hindering us. We need a another forward who can be a starter in place of Firmino, for the games that don't fit him.

[Suareznumber7]

The issue I am having with Klopp tactically is the lack of pragmatism around sorting the defence out. Currently Pochettino, Mourinho and Conte are generally putting 2 deep midfielders in there to shield an already good defence. We are just going with one with also full backs super high up the field.

One pass. Thats all it took for Leicester to get through on goal for the first. Not a pass and move combination like ours against Spurs and a bending run from Mane. Just one straight pass and run.

Once that ball broke for Albrighton why didnt Matip and Lucas just back peddle? Why wasnt Mignolet told to start further up if we are playing higher? Why could Lucas not have been tighter to Vardy to at least made it difficult for him?

Until we sort the defence out, we will never achieve anything.

I somewhat agree with you.  The only thing that I think should change would be the personnel and not the tactics.  If we want to play a high line and invite teams to play direct against us we need the correct players for that system.  We need a goalkeeper to play further up the field (I think Karius is more comfortable doing this), we need 2 Center backs that are fast, strong, good in the air, and can read a situation correctly (as you said, Matip and Lucas should have dropped when Albrighton got that ball), and we need a DM with basically the same characteristics but who must be really good on the ball (Hendo has the defensive characteristics we need but isn't great with the ball).

If we aren't going to bring in the type of player suited to the current tactics then we need to change them.  If we look at Lovren and Matip, I think Matip is somewhat suited to our system but Lovren is not.  Lovren, I think, is more suited to a team who defends with a deep block instead of holding a high line.  That eliminates a lot of his decision making and reading of the game.  Defensively, I think Hendo fits the system really well.  I would agree with you that bringing another player deeper to help him with distribution would be extremely valuable to our attack.  Based on recent comments, I worry that Klopp thinks Wijnaldum might be that player but I think he's too similar to Hendo in his vision and passing ability.  We need someone with the attributes of an Alonso who has the vision and ability to move the ball into dangerous areas quickly. 

[Suareznumber7]

So you think we had the right game plan to beat them but just lacked the fight? I can't get behind that at all.

Against Spurs we played a side who played how we wanted them to. We won because we had a plan that worked very well against how they tend to play. Not because we were angry.

It's clear we struggle against teams that sit in and look to counter.  We don't have the players to defend physical, direct, counter attacking teams, and haven't developed enough to beat teams that sit in against us. 

[Suareznumber7]

The two players who outbattled Spurs in midfield were Hendo and Gini. The former missing and the latter having one of his all too frequent off days. Ndidi looked superb against us.

Hendo wouldn't of made much of a difference defensively as Leicester bypassed the midfield.  Spurs play through the midfield which is why we were able to outbattle them.

The reason Ndidi looked superb against us is because we try to play through the midfield but do so really slowly against teams that sit in against us.  We played right into Leicester's hands both in attack and defense.   

[SerbianScouser]

It's clear we struggle against teams that sit in and look to counter.  We don't have the players to defend physical, direct, counter attacking teams, and haven't developed enough to beat teams that sit in against us. 

The issue has only come to the fore lately because Niasse and Vardy scored with Lucas being confused about his own positioning and lacking pace to recover.

People haven't noticed that up until recently our defending of counter-attacks has been outstanding. If you look at our games in the league up until recently you'll see we hardly conceded from counter-attacks at all. One of the main reasons is Henderson's outstanding athleticism which allows him to cover a lot of ground and stop a lot of counter-attacks at their source.

[Suareznumber7]

What do you think was the thinking with the Mane substitution?

He switched to a back 3 and pushed Clyne and Moreno forward. Put Origi up with Firmino.

In hindsight, probably should have taken of Clyne instead.  Clyne is great defensively but not anywhere near as good as Mane going forward. 

[Suareznumber7]

The issue has only come to the fore lately because Niasse and Vardy scored with Lucas being confused about his own positioning and lacking pace to recover.

People haven't noticed that up until recently our defending of counter-attacks has been outstanding. If you look at our games in the league up until recently you'll see we hardly conceded from counter-attacks at all. One of the main reasons is Henderson's outstanding athleticism which allows him to cover a lot of ground and stop a lot of counter-attacks at their source.

The first part isn't necessarily true.  Look at the teams that we have lost to this year.  All teams at the bottom of the table that sit in, are physical, outwork us, and hit us on the counter. 

It's not Hendo who is the problem.  It's the two center backs.  Hendo actually hides some of the deficiencies of our center backs.  As I mentioned, Matip is more suited to this then our other center backs but he doesn't have the speed to deal with someone like Vardy.  Lovren doesn't read the game well at all and consistently makes big mistakes and Lucas just doesn't have the physical ability to play against these teams. 

[rawcusk8]

For the record Melissa Reddy is saying we are looking at Naby Keita, he's the boss midfielder everyone wants. Atleast it shows Klopp knows we need more in the middle of the park. Wonder what it means for Can who is stalling on a new deal. Either way we badly need a solid midfielder to aid hendo and aid us when we play the battling teams.

[SerbianScouser]

I took a quick glance over the goals we conceded in the league and up until the Hull game we conceded one single counter-attack goal at Bournemouth. Up until recently I never heard people complaining about our defending against counter-attacks. Go and look at the types of goals we conceded in the league this season and you'll see there's a lot of set-piece goals conceded, big errors leading to goals but precious little counter-attacks.

[Suareznumber7]

I took a quick glance over the goals we conceded in the league and up until the Hull game we conceded one single counter-attack goal at Bournemouth. Up until recently I never heard people complaining about our defending against counter-attacks. Go and look at the types of goals we conceded in the league this season and you'll see there's a lot of set-piece goals conceded, big errors leading to goals but precious little counter-attacks.

Can you provide the link that you used?