Author Topic: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)  (Read 926455 times)

Offline Suareznumber7

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #1240 on: April 7, 2017, 01:24:01 pm »
when Matip and Lovren have played together our defence has been good - very good considering how high our full backs play. Sadly they've only played together 10 or so times and our back ups aren't good enough.

This is a big call for Klopp.  As you said, Matip and Lovren have been pretty good when playing together but it seems that one of the two are always injured.  Does Klopp bring in a new starting CB who has more of a history of staying fit or does he roll the dice with Lovren/Matip as starters next year and try and bring in more experienced cover?  I think the original plan was for Sahko to be backup and Klavan to be 4th choice which would have helped out a bit. 

Offline catinthebag

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #1241 on: April 8, 2017, 05:25:53 am »
There is 10 times more evidence with this team to show when we try to defend a lead we concede, than goals on the counter. As soon as this team stops attacking, and tries to defend, we concede.

The change completely changed the game. It invited pressure, and we paid the price. I love Jurgen, but he cost us 2 points yesterday. It was an unbeliveably bad call.

I was at the game, I haven't and won't be watching the highlights. Bournemouth were appalling. They'd have 1 effort on goal and we were hammmering them 2nd half. A 3rd goal was coming and going to 5 at the back stunted us completely, and gave Bournemouth licence to attack. Their goal was inevitable, It was always going to happen the minute Jurgen decided to try and see the game out. No one around me was even remotely shocked when it went in. Under Rafa or Houllier I'd understand, but to see a manager like Jurgen try something like that is mental. It's not in his character and these players can't do it. THe whole thing was just mad.

I thought the system worked well and we had them under control. The pressure we "invited" came from Firmino who lost the ball a number of times in the second half, creating additional danger that wore down the midfield. I was more perplexed as to why a clearly exhausted Firmino wasn't taken off for Sturridge or TAA, because moves would break down when it got to him.
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Offline catinthebag

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #1242 on: April 8, 2017, 05:33:48 am »
Tactically, the substitution was all about the 4-3 game at their's. We got fucked because we were too gung ho. This time Klopp changed the formation, i think to shore us up mentally as much as anything else.

It didn't work.

He will learn from it. Because he's good.

It worked. We didn't lose! And the goal they scored wasn't from a clear chance. I just don't understand why Klavan was so preoccupied with finding out where the ball was. Just stop your man from turning, Ragnar.
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Offline mattD

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #1243 on: April 8, 2017, 05:46:16 am »
I thought the system worked well and we had them under control. The pressure we "invited" came from Firmino who lost the ball a number of times in the second half, creating additional danger that wore down the midfield. I was more perplexed as to why a clearly exhausted Firmino wasn't taken off for Sturridge or TAA, because moves would break down when it got to him.

An excellent point and if Jurgen is at fault here, then it was not bringing on another substitute. Especially in mid week having only played a few days previously, it seems odd somewhat that Jurgen failed to respond. Although thinking about this more, you have to be fair on the boss in the sense that there really wasn't much he could do in terms of bringing Firmino off. Throwing on one of the kids in a tight match is a big call, and in the event of a costly mistake, the ramifications for the youth player could be huge as it could potentially shatter fragile confidence at that age. Sturridge is not compatible with the way Firmino plays either so he really did have his hands tied behind his backs with this one.

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #1244 on: April 8, 2017, 05:25:49 pm »
Encouraging that we looked so good with a back 3 in the second half. I think it's the best shape for us without Mane. Both Bobby and Phil can do a lot of damage between the lines if we manage to get the ball to them early.

With 433 we're always gonna force square pegs into round holes making it difficult to achieve balance. I know Klopp is reluctant to use Moreno this season but him and Milner our two best wing-backs right now and having them both in the final third offering width would create a lot of space inside for Sturridge and our two Brazilians.


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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #1245 on: April 8, 2017, 10:23:58 pm »
I think he's looked at the games we have left and decided having 3 centre halves on the pitch will be advantageous - WBA, Palace, Watford and West Ham all play a similar style and one we've struggled against with 433. The shift in setup will hopefully make us more solid. Would be nice to see Gomez have an opportunity instead if Klavan.

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #1246 on: April 8, 2017, 10:27:22 pm »
But we are going to need to find one

We have one
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Offline simbo

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #1247 on: April 8, 2017, 10:52:11 pm »
I think he's looked at the games we have left and decided having 3 centre halves on the pitch will be advantageous - WBA, Palace, Watford and West Ham all play a similar style and one we've struggled against with 433. The shift in setup will hopefully make us more solid. Would be nice to see Gomez have an opportunity instead if Klavan.

Not at Left CB it wouldn't


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Offline Len1

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #1248 on: April 8, 2017, 11:00:46 pm »
Not at Left CB it wouldn't


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Nah, Lovren would move to the left.

Offline kkhaku

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #1249 on: April 9, 2017, 05:36:01 am »
Injuries and fitness have forced Klopp's hand into the tactical change - I don't think it has anything to do with upcoming matches, but I can definitely see the advantage of three centrebacks against those teams. With Lovren and Matip we at least have some dominance in the air, but our ability to clean up second balls has been abysmal, and a third body in that area should help the cause against certain teams' tactics.

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #1250 on: April 9, 2017, 05:45:33 am »
We have to go into every game we have left with that mentality that were 1-0 down. We concede every game. We give up the same goals every single game. Since that will definitely not change in the last stretch we need to get our scoring boots on, and worry about it in the summer. No tactic Klopp has used has worked in keeping a clean sheet. The only way i can see us keeping a clean sheet, is by suffocating the opposition and pressing for 90 minutes, which at this stage of the season is extremely difficult to do.
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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #1251 on: April 9, 2017, 06:41:08 am »
I think there is a misconception that by playing 3 at the back we are in effect more solid defensively. In reality, 3-5-2 allows us to play more players higher up the pitch, have more numbers in midfield to stifle and overpower the opposition, and still have two upfront for attack. But this means we will give up more space on the flanks for other teams to play in behind, and you will need CB's who are more physically and aerially dominant.

I am more and more convinced that Klavan cannot be one of those. And with time not on his side, I am not sure if he will be able to become one either. I think at this stage we need to buy one maybe two more CB's to come into the side in order to make this system work.

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #1252 on: April 9, 2017, 07:59:43 am »
I think there is a misconception that by playing 3 at the back we are in effect more solid defensively. In reality, 3-5-2 allows us to play more players higher up the pitch, have more numbers in midfield to stifle and overpower the opposition, and still have two upfront for attack. But this means we will give up more space on the flanks for other teams to play in behind, and you will need CB's who are more physically and aerially dominant.

I am more and more convinced that Klavan cannot be one of those. And with time not on his side, I am not sure if he will be able to become one either. I think at this stage we need to buy one maybe two more CB's to come into the side in order to make this system work.

Eh?..3-5-2 is a preeminently defensive system..teams that deploy it often concede the fewest goals. What's also true, and you quite rightly pointed out, is that it gives you numbers to flood the midfield and to press the opposition higher up the field.

The WBs in a 3-5-2 also have shorter distances to cover and play a more intelligent role rather than having to constantly get up and down the full length of the pitch.

The CBs have to be more versatile though, particularly the flanking ones as they have to cover more ground and must also have the ability to initiate the first phase of play ie. they have to be better vertical passers. I can see Joe Gomez excelling in this role.

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #1253 on: April 9, 2017, 08:18:19 am »
Eh?..3-5-2 is a preeminently defensive system..teams that deploy it often concede the fewest goals. What's also true, and you quite rightly pointed out, is that it gives you numbers to flood the midfield and to press the opposition higher up the field.

The WBs in a 3-5-2 also have shorter distances to cover and play a more intelligent role rather than having to constantly get up and down the full length of the pitch.

The CBs have to be more versatile though, particularly the flanking ones as they have to cover more ground and must also have the ability to initiate the first phase of play ie. they have to be better vertical passers. I can see Joe Gomez excelling in this role.

3-5-2 is a more defensive system for more defensive teams because, in the static defensive position, it basically reverts to a 5-3-2 or a 5-4-1. For teams that spend a lot of time on defence, that is basically what it boils down to, as it nullifies the game on the flanks against the opposition. The wingbacks for these teams generally spend more time closer to the defensive line than they would in a more advanced position against stronger teams, which would be for the majority of the time for teams in the bottom half.

But for teams that play a high line (us), 3-5-2 (or a 3-4-3 for that matter) allows for a better lateral game in midfield, closing of the diamonds, allowing for the outball to the flanks in order to cycle possession and avoid pressure. But it will leave gaps in behind for the vertical ball, and if your CB's don't play compact enough, it will allow for runners in the half spaces to receive the ball from the flanks (like the goal Walters scored against us). Therefore, a crucial element is that the CB unit must be able to learn not only to move as a unit vertically, but laterally also in a more compact manner. If one is pulled out of position on an opposition counter, the remaining two are then left to deal with most likely the main opposition striker, and traditionally this will most likely be an aerial threat rather than the ball on the ground.

Then you have two options. One is to have a world class goalkeeper who not only excels at shot stopping, but is also confident in commanding the situation (i.e  coming out on a consistent basis to deal with the aerial threat). But to be honest, those don't exactly grow on trees, and Migs is definitely not one of those. The second option is then to have CB's who are more able to be physically strong enough to deal with the strikers (or trailing runners for that matter). If they are not strong enough or are good enough aerially against this threat, you will often see teams score against the run of play on opportunistic pops from the side.

Offline Chalky Boots

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #1254 on: April 9, 2017, 08:31:42 am »
I think there is a misconception that by playing 3 at the back we are in effect more solid defensively. In reality, 3-5-2 allows us to play more players higher up the pitch, have more numbers in midfield to stifle and overpower the opposition, and still have two upfront for attack. But this means we will give up more space on the flanks for other teams to play in behind, and you will need CB's who are more physically and aerially dominant.

I am more and more convinced that Klavan cannot be one of those. And with time not on his side, I am not sure if he will be able to become one either. I think at this stage we need to buy one maybe two more CB's to come into the side in order to make this system work.

I think the idea of the system is so that it encourages players to attack and defend more as a unit, and it's a good system if well drilled because it plugs pockets and keeps everything tight, which is why Juventus had so much success under Conte with it. But that's the good variant of the system. The other is the one with two holding midfielders, two strikers and one ten and I don't think I've ever seen a team have success with that variant, it's too flat and offers no depth to the midfield. At times yesterday it felt like we were playing that system.

Even still it's a specialist formation that requires specialist players. The whole reason Juventus worked so well with it was because it was a Pirlo, Vidal and Marchisio and then it had Bonucci behind all that. Really Emre should probably be in the back if we want to play this system (we've all seen how outstanding he is in that system as well under BRendan) and Trent and Moreno should be starting over the standard fullbacks.

So far as Klavan goes I'm pretty dead set on him not starting again if needs be, I can't stand defenders who shit out of 50/50's on a regular basis.

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #1255 on: April 9, 2017, 09:01:13 am »
3-5-2 is a more defensive system for more defensive teams because, in the static defensive position, it basically reverts to a 5-3-2 or a 5-4-1. For teams that spend a lot of time on defence, that is basically what it boils down to, as it nullifies the game on the flanks against the opposition. The wingbacks for these teams generally spend more time closer to the defensive line than they would in a more advanced position against stronger teams, which would be for the majority of the time for teams in the bottom half.

You started off saying "But this means we will give up more space on the flanks for other teams to play in behind" but now are saying the opposite.


Quote
But for teams that play a high line (us), 3-5-2 (or a 3-4-3 for that matter) allows for a better lateral game in midfield, closing of the diamonds, allowing for the outball to the flanks in order to cycle possession and avoid pressure. But it will leave gaps in behind for the vertical ball, and if your CB's don't play compact enough, it will allow for runners in the half spaces to receive the ball from the flanks (like the goal Walters scored against us). Therefore, a crucial element is that the CB unit must be able to learn not only to move as a unit vertically, but laterally also in a more compact manner. If one is pulled out of position on an opposition counter, the remaining two are then left to deal with most likely the main opposition striker, and traditionally this will most likely be an aerial threat rather than the ball on the ground.

As to the bolded, agree completely. It's a specialised system which has to be developed and drilled. Our 3 CBs have to be more intelligent and versatile. However, when deployed effectively the space in a 3-5-2 will be better controlled because it's a more compact system. With regards the last point. I'm not sure anything's different to the way we defend in a 4-3-3, in fact we'll have a numerical advantage if the opposition play a sole striker.

Quote
Then you have two options. One is to have a world class goalkeeper who not only excels at shot stopping, but is also confident in commanding the situation (i.e  coming out on a consistent basis to deal with the aerial threat). But to be honest, those don't exactly grow on trees, and Migs is definitely not one of those. The second option is then to have CB's who are more able to be physically strong enough to deal with the strikers (or trailing runners for that matter). If they are not strong enough or are good enough aerially against this threat, you will often see teams score against the run of play on opportunistic pops from the side.

Again I don't think this is unique to the 3-5-2. We've been poor stopping and defending crosses for too long now anyway and a commanding goalie is a boon in any system.

What's different in a 3-5-2 is that it's a more tactical, intelligent system versus the somewhat mindless, intensely physical system we've been using.


Offline sminp

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #1256 on: April 9, 2017, 09:14:27 am »
The debate about whether 352 is defensive or attacking is bollocks, it depends entirely on who you play at wing back and who you play in midfield. Our 352 towards the end against Bournemouth was really defensive but if we'd have played wing backs of Moreno's style and stuck two Coutinho types into the midfield alongside Can then it would be quite attacking.
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Offline simbo

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #1257 on: April 9, 2017, 08:39:53 pm »
Problem is if we are gonna play 3 cb's then the right sided CB should be Emre, problem is we need him in Midfield for obvious reasons, at his stage I don't trust Gomez fitness levels TO be the Wide CB, plus it's prolly the last thing he needs.


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Offline joe ®

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #1258 on: April 10, 2017, 10:52:52 am »
Can isn't good enough in the air to play CB, we learned that back in 2015.

We'd probably need three new players minimum to be able to play a 3-4-3 kind of formation in the fashion Chelsea and now Spurs do. Only Matip is good enough on the ball and quick enough to play as a wide centre back, so we'd need another one who could, and then a much more solid defender than either Lovren or Klavan to play as the other CB. We'd also need another wing back, or maybe even two.

As a purely defensive formation the 5-3-2 should be fine to see games out once we upgrade on Klavan, which we almost certainly will in summer.

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #1259 on: April 10, 2017, 06:08:31 pm »
Would like to see Matip, Lucas and Lovren in a back three with Lucas in the middle. He will do well there and perhaps steadier than Klavan
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Offline Hash91

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #1260 on: April 10, 2017, 06:40:28 pm »
Has Klopp given any indications that he plans to continue with 3 at the back? The formation that we ended the Stoke game with, including the personnel, could be used against WBA as well. Maybe will start with Origi than Sturridge. If Lallana and / or Henderson are not fit to start again then I can see us going for the 3-4-2-1 formation.

Offline Suareznumber7

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #1261 on: April 11, 2017, 01:34:27 pm »
Has Klopp given any indications that he plans to continue with 3 at the back? The formation that we ended the Stoke game with, including the personnel, could be used against WBA as well. Maybe will start with Origi than Sturridge. If Lallana and / or Henderson are not fit to start again then I can see us going for the 3-4-2-1 formation.

I think he will keep that formation against West Brom just because of who we are playing.  The third CB gives a little more protection against direct teams which we obviously need. 

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #1262 on: May 7, 2017, 03:28:58 pm »
Dreadful from the boss today. He's done well to get us in this position but his team selections and use of subs in recent weeks is horrendous. Unsurprisingly our luck with wonder goals or set pieces wasn't sustainable and then we cant score.

At least we might get a decent team selection at West Ham now.

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #1263 on: May 7, 2017, 03:30:19 pm »
The tactics were shocking today. Nothing much to analyze really.

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #1264 on: May 7, 2017, 03:34:40 pm »
I still don't understand why he showed far more flexibility with our tactics last season than he has this season.

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #1265 on: May 7, 2017, 03:36:46 pm »
The tactics were shocking today. Nothing much to analyze really.

Absolutely infuriating. Exact same problems we had against palace and Watford, minus the wonder strikes.

Less shouting at the ref, maybe have a go at all the aimless, hopeless passing at the back
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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #1266 on: May 7, 2017, 03:36:49 pm »
Not convinced we actually have any tactics from watching us in these sorts of games this season. Might sound dramatic, but it's true. Unless the aimless passing in midfield followed by a lazy, shit cross/lofted ball into the area is by design?

Great in the big games but awful in the rest is not the makings of an elite team. Against 13-14 teams in this league you're going to have the bulk of possession, and they're going to sit deep and seek to frustrate you, and the coaching staff cannot figure it out. More worryingly, we've not made even the slightest improvement, or even tried anything remotely different. If anything, we're getting worse. I'm not sure why people seem to think it will be magically fixed next year - it's a huge concern. Klopp made his name as a counter-pressing coach, but we just can't do that against the majority of teams in this league. He's going to need to become a significantly better possession-based coach if he's going to be a success here, because at the moment the players look totally clueless.

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #1267 on: May 7, 2017, 03:37:57 pm »
Klopp will have to look at the depth of our midfield before even contemplating buying a boss striker. We don't have a Fabregas or KDB or Ozil or any one individual that is creatively outstanding - our MO this season has been attacking midfielders on the half turn , moving the ball quickly which opens up spaces between the lines for our 3 forwards.

I love Can to death but he has played way too much as an 8 this season, he has no business playing that much for us as an attacking midfielder because majority of games we play are against parked buses so it's all about agility in tight spaces. Apart from the odd game most games with Can as 8 have been turgid. You can say similar about Gini but at least there's a lot of evidence of him being involved in wonderful football we played up until 2017. He has proved he can play in that set-up successfully while with Can my first association is a struggle to create chances, ponderous and laboured football.

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #1268 on: May 7, 2017, 03:38:20 pm »
We've scored fewer goals than Bournemouth since the turn of the year, can't score against Southampton in four matches, lost at home to Palace, drew against Bournemouth at home and needed a wonder goal to beat Watford, yet people don't think we need a striker.
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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #1269 on: May 7, 2017, 03:44:59 pm »
We've scored fewer goals than Bournemouth since the turn of the year, can't score against Southampton in four matches, lost at home to Palace, drew against Bournemouth at home and needed a wonder goal to beat Watford, yet people don't think we need a striker.
We need a striker, for sure. Sturridge with his old pace back would be nice, but, sadly, I don't think it's possible.
We also need pace on the wings.
We also need proper attacking wing backs.
We also need a playmaking midfielder of some kind.
We also probably need an upgrade in the defensive/box-to-box midfield area.
We also need at least one top class centre back.

So where do we begin? It's hard to say. We can only do maybe four of the above six in the summer window.

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #1270 on: May 7, 2017, 03:45:19 pm »
Klopp will have to look at the depth of our midfield before even contemplating buying a boss striker. We don't have a Fabregas or KDB or Ozil or any one individual that is creatively outstanding - our MO this season has been attacking midfielders on the half turn , moving the ball quickly which opens up spaces between the lines for our 3 forwards.

I love Can to death but he has played way too much as an 8 this season, he has no business playing that much for us as an attacking midfielder because majority of games we play are against parked buses so it's all about agility in tight spaces. Apart from the odd game most games with Can as 8 have been turgid. You can say similar about Gini but at least there's a lot of evidence of him being involved in wonderful football we played up until 2017. He has proved he can play in that set-up successfully while with Can my first association is a struggle to create chances, ponderous and laboured football.
Can played plenty in the first half of the season as well. If anything there's more evidence Wijnaldum struggles big time for us in midfield against parked bus teams.

Offline Ste08

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #1271 on: May 7, 2017, 03:46:22 pm »
Im yet to be convinced Klopp is ruthless enough to deliver the drastic changes this squad needs. The whole matey approach needs to stop.  New contract given out for mediocrity. Origi stinks the place out and there is no repercussions that he will be dropped cause Klopp would rather cut his nose off to spite his face with Sturridge.

Today team selection was horrible, we continually struggle cause week after week we do the same thing.  We are so easy to play against. The only thing missing today was the defensive fuck to gift Saints the win.

Something needs to change before next week with regards to tactics, we need to be more flexible and less predictable. 

Offline rscanderlech

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #1272 on: May 7, 2017, 03:54:28 pm »
Im yet to be convinced Klopp is ruthless enough to deliver the drastic changes this squad needs. The whole matey approach needs to stop.  New contract given out for mediocrity. Origi stinks the place out and there is no repercussions that he will be dropped cause Klopp would rather cut his nose off to spite his face with Sturridge.

Today team selection was horrible, we continually struggle cause week after week we do the same thing.  We are so easy to play against. The only thing missing today was the defensive fuck to gift Saints the win.

Something needs to change before next week with regards to tactics, we need to be more flexible and less predictable.
Yes, I too have been worried by his perpetual optimism ever since we signed Wijnaldum for £25m and made Milner into an undroppable left back on £150k in our team.

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #1273 on: May 7, 2017, 03:55:24 pm »
Klopp will have to look at the depth of our midfield before even contemplating buying a boss striker. We don't have a Fabregas or KDB or Ozil or any one individual that is creatively outstanding - our MO this season has been attacking midfielders on the half turn , moving the ball quickly which opens up spaces between the lines for our 3 forwards.

I love Can to death but he has played way too much as an 8 this season, he has no business playing that much for us as an attacking midfielder because majority of games we play are against parked buses so it's all about agility in tight spaces. Apart from the odd game most games with Can as 8 have been turgid. You can say similar about Gini but at least there's a lot of evidence of him being involved in wonderful football we played up until 2017. He has proved he can play in that set-up successfully while with Can my first association is a struggle to create chances, ponderous and laboured football.

Completely agree.

Before anyone thinks I'm attacking him, Can is far from our only problem, but he is a real conundrum as a player. The boy quite clearly has talent, and after half a season of dreadful form amidst injuries he deserves great credit for coming back so strongly in the second half of the season. He's had some wonderful individual moments, including game winning ones, and his application and attitude have made a difference to some games this season (not least the wonder goal against Watford) but they are individual moments - personally I think the team as a whole looks that little bit slower and little bit less cohesive with him in there. I don't think playing him in his current role is in any way conducive to us playing creative, quick football. It's just not his skillset - like you say, he doesn't have the ability to move the ball quickly in tight spaces. He has the technical ability but he doesn't have the speed of thought or movement to execute it well enough up the pitch. You'll not find a top level player in his position who wants as much time on the ball.

I honestly think we need more or less an entirely new midfield next season. Lallana will no doubt be one of the first names on the teamsheet, but those other 2 midfield positions are far from certain for me. Henderson seemingly has serious injury problems, Can is yet to convince in terms of nailing down any position and Wijnaldum is, for me, more of a squad player who plays well when the team clicks perfectly but offers little when they don't. A tidy player who can offer depth, but probably not much else.

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #1274 on: May 7, 2017, 04:00:17 pm »
Completely agree.

Before anyone thinks I'm attacking him, Can is far from our only problem, but he is a real conundrum as a player. The boy quite clearly has talent, and after half a season of dreadful form amidst injuries he deserves great credit for coming back so strongly in the second half of the season. He's had some wonderful individual moments, including game winning ones, and his application and attitude have made a difference to some games this season (not least the wonder goal against Watford) but they are individual moments - personally I think the team as a whole looks that little bit slower and little bit less cohesive with him in there. I don't think playing him in his current role is in any way conducive to us playing creative, quick football. It's just not his skillset - like you say, he doesn't have the ability to move the ball quickly in tight spaces. He has the technical ability but he doesn't have the speed of thought or movement to execute it well enough up the pitch. You'll not find a top level player in his position who wants as much time on the ball.

I honestly think we need more or less an entirely new midfield next season. Lallana will no doubt be one of the first names on the teamsheet, but those other 2 midfield positions are far from certain for me. Henderson seemingly has serious injury problems, Can is yet to convince in terms of nailing down any position and Wijnaldum is, for me, more of a squad player who plays well when the team clicks perfectly but offers little when they don't. A tidy player who can offer depth, but probably not much else.
The sad truth is that we need so much overhauling and we didn't do nearly enough transfer-wise in the three windows since Klopp arrived.

As for the midfield itself, it is, I think, to a great extent the legacy of Rodgers, who put together the following: Milner, Can, Lucas, Henderson, Allen. (Lallana was a forward in his team.) Swap Allen for Wijnaldum and you have more-or-less our present midfield.

So perhaps we have yet to see what Klopp wants to do with it?

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #1275 on: May 7, 2017, 04:07:24 pm »
The sad truth is that we need so much overhauling and we didn't do nearly enough transfer-wise in the three windows since Klopp arrived.

As for the midfield itself, it is, I think, to a great extent the legacy of Rodgers, who put together the following: Milner, Can, Lucas, Henderson, Allen. (Lallana was a forward in his team.) Swap Allen for Wijnaldum and you have more-or-less our present midfield.

So perhaps we have yet to see what Klopp wants to do with it?

Concerning then that we didn't do anything about it last summer, no? Like you say, it's largely a Rodgers midfield, with the exception of Wijnaldum who it's fair to say has been underwhelming. The tenuous links we've seen in the press to midfielders (that almost certainly probably won't come here...) suggest we are looking to add quality, but spending £30m on Wijnaldum and Grujic as our only two additions in three windows doesn't look great on the face of it.

Personally, I'd be looking to bring in two starting quality CMs - one box to box player who can contribute going forward and back the way, and one for that deeper position (be it either a pure defensive player, which seems unlikely, or one who can actually set and control the tempo of a game of football, because we don't possess a single midfield player with playmaking ability, which is a pretty big fucking gap in the squad for a team that regularly has 60-70% possession that they have no idea what to do with).

You look at all the other changes required in the squad though, and it ain't gonna happen is it? I think we'll get the former of those players, but it remains to be seen the level of quality we're realistically looking at.

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #1276 on: May 7, 2017, 04:09:52 pm »
The sad truth is that we need so much overhauling and we didn't do nearly enough transfer-wise in the three windows since Klopp arrived.

As for the midfield itself, it is, I think, to a great extent the legacy of Rodgers, who put together the following: Milner, Can, Lucas, Henderson, Allen. (Lallana was a forward in his team.) Swap Allen for Wijnaldum and you have more-or-less our present midfield.

So perhaps we have yet to see what Klopp wants to do with it?

Only three players in our current first team

migs
clyne    lovren   matip    milner
Wijnaldum henderson lallana
Mane firmino coutinho

Were bought under klopp, and all three were signed in the summer. As annoying as his reluctance to spend in the winter is, I'm quite hopeful we'll see a pretty big overhaul of the bench in the summer.
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Offline rscanderlech

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #1277 on: May 7, 2017, 04:11:21 pm »
Concerning then that we didn't do anything about it last summer, no? Like you say, it's largely a Rodgers midfield, with the exception of Wijnaldum who it's fair to say has been underwhelming. The tenuous links we've seen in the press to midfielders (that almost certainly probably won't come here...) suggest we are looking to add quality, but spending £30m on Wijnaldum and Grujic as our only two additions in three windows doesn't look great on the face of it.

Personally, I'd be looking to bring in two starting quality CMs - one box to box player who can contribute going forward and back the way, and one for that deeper position (be it either a pure defensive player, which seems unlikely, or one who can actually set and control the tempo of a game of football, because we don't possess a single midfield player with playmaking ability, which is a pretty big fucking gap in the squad for a team that regularly has 60-70% possession that they have no idea what to do with).

You look at all the other changes required in the squad though, and it ain't gonna happen is it? I think we'll get the former of those players, but it remains to be seen the level of quality we're realistically looking at.
It is definitely a concern. The frustration is no longer a lack of money. We have money, but we just use it so badly, or not at all. I agree that we need two midfielders to look like a proper team, but we also need two wing backs to make this system work, and one seriously good centre half. Add to that the desperate need for some depth/pace on the wing, and the lack of a quality striker, and we basically need six top players.

That's not happening in this summer window, so we need to work out, what is the most important to allow us to function tactically, of those 6 positions?

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #1278 on: May 7, 2017, 04:12:09 pm »
Only three players in our current first team

migs
clyne    lovren   matip    milner
Wijnaldum henderson lallana
Mane firmino coutinho

Were bought under klopp, and all three were signed in the summer. As annoying as his reluctance to spend in the winter is, I'm quite hopeful we'll see a pretty big overhaul of the bench in the summer.
I'd like to see the bench consist of current first eleven players and the first eleven being what is overhauled!

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Re: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics
« Reply #1279 on: May 7, 2017, 04:13:58 pm »
Would like to see Matip, Lucas and Lovren in a back three with Lucas in the middle. He will do well there and perhaps steadier than Klavan

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