Topic: Team Analysis: Jürgen Klopp’s Liverpool Tactics (*)

[cdav]

We have progressed. We finished 8th last season.

We have also matched last season's points total with 7 games left, already scored more than we did last year but sadly on course to concede about the same number. We have taken a large step forward this year despite some very big frustrations, we need to do the same again next season by buying more quality additions and learning from our mistakes this season.

I'm sure we are already working on our signings but we need 5-6 signings of which all we will be happy to start 25+ matches next season. A CB, a LB, a CM, 2 wide players and a center forward- if the same number can make a good impact like Mane, Matip and Wijnaldum we will have done very well again.

[Jfor83]

I dont believe for a second that we will finish 6th. If that does happen then yes its not progress.

I don't think so either, but we can't say for definite yet so talk of progress is premature in my opinion until the seasons over.
One area that we haven't progressed is defending! We are still Woeful at it.

[Jfor83]

We have also matched last season's points total with 7 games left, already scored more than we did last year but sadly on course to concede about the same number. We have taken a large step forward this year despite some very big frustrations, we need to do the same again next season by buying more quality additions and learning from our mistakes this season.

I'm sure we are already working on our signings but we need 5-6 signings of which all we will be happy to start 25+ matches next season. A CB, a LB, a CM, 2 wide players and a center forward- if the same number can make a good impact like Mane, Matip and Wijnaldum we will have done very well again.

We gonna beat last seasons points total but with no Europe and klopp having had time to get to grips of things maybe we should be doing better.

[Anfield89]

We have also matched last season's points total with 7 games left, already scored more than we did last year but sadly on course to concede about the same number. We have taken a large step forward this year despite some very big frustrations, we need to do the same again next season by buying more quality additions and learning from our mistakes this season.

I'm sure we are already working on our signings but we need 5-6 signings of which all we will be happy to start 25+ matches next season. A CB, a LB, a CM, 2 wide players and a center forward- if the same number can make a good impact like Mane, Matip and Wijnaldum we will have done very well again.

It's not large mate, now I'm not moaning when saying we haven't progressed just as it is we haven't gone backwards.

We have had the league to solely concentrate on this year so we should get more points than last year. Players were rested last season to concentrate on europa. The defense is still a mess and we need to fill the same positions as last summer give or take a few I wouldn't say it's progression.

Finish top 4 and address the defense then we will see real progression.

[Suareznumber7]

Spurs are showing otherwise. Walker and Rose are brilliant.

They are ok. Their output is hit and miss, just like most full backs. I think we place far high demands on what we ask our fullbacks to produce.

Both Clyne and Milner have arguably been our best defenders. Certainly better than the centre backs.

Sorry but, you put Walker in Rose in our setup and our issue against teams defending deep becomes a lot easier to solve.  Pochettino has turned them into really good players when a few years ago they weren't that good at all. 

[killer-heels]

Sorry but, you put Walker in Rose in our setup and our issue against teams defending deep becomes a lot easier to solve.  Pochettino has turned them into really good players when a few years ago they weren't that good at all. 

There is very little if anything in between Clyne and Walker I can assure you and the stats generally back that up as well as good old fashioned eyes. Your point regards Rose vs Milner is fair due to Rose's speed and being left footed though.

[Anfield89]

There is very little if anything in between Clyne and Walker I can assure you and the stats generally back that up as well as good old fashioned eyes. Your point regards Rose vs Milner is fair due to Rose's speed and being left footed though.

We can ask more of Milner and defo need a proper left back as well as he has done. Think Walker is stronger personally.

[Suareznumber7]

There is very little if anything in between Clyne and Walker I can assure you and the stats generally back that up as well as good old fashioned eyes. Your point regards Rose vs Milner is fair due to Rose's speed and being left footed though.

In an attacking sense?  Defensively Clyne is great.  I don't think Clyne offers enough going forward in our setup. 

[killer-heels]

In an attacking sense?  Defensively Clyne is great.  I don't think Clyne offers enough going forward in our setup. 

Yes in an attacking sense. Walker is a better dribbler but his output in terms of taking people on isnt significant enough for it to be much more influential.

[Anfield89]

In an attacking sense?  Defensively Clyne is great.  I don't think Clyne offers enough going forward in our setup.

Defensively id say. He's bigger and stronger. Stats might show different I just get the impression he's better in the air and one on one situation could be wrong.

[Suareznumber7]

Yes in an attacking sense. Walker is a better dribbler but his output in terms of taking people on isnt significant enough for it to be much more influential.

But, he stays wide and maintains that width for Tottenham.  Clyne's first touch is always central.  We need fullbacks who are going to be able to maintain our width in the attacking third against the teams that sit in against us.  From what I've seen, Walker's tendency is to stay wide and get to the endline to put in crosses. 

[killer-heels]

But, he stays wide and maintains that width for Tottenham.  Clyne's first touch is always central.  We need fullbacks who are going to be able to maintain our width in the attacking third against the teams that sit in against us.  From what I've seen, Walker's tendency is to stay wide and get to the endline to put in crosses. 

Maybe thats not the instruction that Clyne is getting from his manager? Clyne I believe I read somewhere has created more chances and the point is that whatever his manager is telling him to do is contributing to an attack that has scored 66 goals.

Is he the best in the world? No. Is there aspects of his game he could improve? Certainly. But we have to look at the areas which will give us the greatest gains and having Walker for Clyne wouldnt improve it by much and not at all in my opinion.

There are plenty of areas we need work and certainly the Rose vs Milner shouts are valid.

[Suareznumber7]

Maybe thats not the instruction that Clyne is getting from his manager? Clyne I believe I read somewhere has created more chances and the point is that whatever his manager is telling him to do is contributing to an attack that has scored 66 goals.

Is he the best in the world? No. Is there aspects of his game he could improve? Certainly. But we have to look at the areas which will give us the greatest gains and having Walker for Clyne wouldnt improve it by much and not at all in my opinion.

There are plenty of areas we need work and certainly the Rose vs Milner shouts are valid.

Perhaps but I'd be really surprised if that is the case.  I'm not at all surprised that Clyne has created a lot of chances.  Just think of how many chances a better attacking fullback would create. 

[killer-heels]

Perhaps but I'd be really surprised if that is the case.  I'm not at all surprised that Clyne has created a lot of chances.  Just think of how many chances a better attacking fullback would create. 

.... and what if a better attacking full back is worse defensively than him? What if that costs goals?

[JackWard33]

Perhaps but I'd be really surprised if that is the case.  I'm not at all surprised that Clyne has created a lot of chances.  Just think of how many chances a better attacking fullback would create. 

Comparing Clyne's passing / chance creation numbers to Milners is interesting ... Milner doesn't come out of it well.

[Carra-ton]

I am wondering, how and what more can Klopp do to get us defending second balls better. The staticness of our setup is something which needs to be addressed. We have conceded from long throw ins in similar fashion this season, surely this is something which has to be fixed.
I think we need better defenders, without doubt, and we can't rely on Lovren and Matip with their injury records from this season at least.

[Suareznumber7]

.... and what if a better attacking full back is worse defensively than him? What if that costs goals?

Considering the comparison was with Walker I don't think that would be the case.  It's definitely a balancing act for sure. 

[jepovic]

Regarding our progress, I think 15/16 was one of the weakest PL seasons ever. Chelsea and ManU were absolute rubbish last season, and we can't expect that every year. This season has been more normal.

My frustration with the team comes largely from the fact that we show time after time that we can play very well against top teams, but still fail to show up against the poor teams. It's obviously not just about money or quality, but about tactics and mentality.

[killer-heels]

Considering the comparison was with Walker I don't think that would be the case.  It's definitely a balancing act for sure. 

Indeed but what I am saying that the trade off you get with Walker is very, very small. Its so small that its not worth it. Maybe it could be worth it if we had a fully functioning side in all other areas but the fact is you are not gaining that much more swapping Clyne with Walker.

[rawcusk8]

The amount of times it's been said by Jurgen or one of our players that we'll learn from a certain setback and then we've gone and messed up again is laughable. Same sort of shit nervy defending every other week it seems. Our defence definately needs a massive change, hoping two of that back four are not starters come next season.

[Kop307]

The amount of times it's been said by Jurgen or one of our players that we'll learn from a certain setback and then we've gone and messed up again is laughable. Same sort of shit nervy defending every other week it seems. Our defence definately needs a massive change, hoping two of that back four are not starters come next season.

This needs to be put into context though regarding the defence.

Yesterday we were under no pressure and the manager decided to go 5 at the back, and invite pressure for 35 minutes with a group of players and a goalkeeper who crumble under any sort of pressure, everyone scores.

One of the most baffling decisions I've ever seen from a Liverpool manager.

This group of players cannot defend - why ask them too? This manager isn't that kind of manager. We don't have those players. We've never seen him do it before, for more than 5 minutes.

He had 4/5 changes he could have made yesterday instead that all see us win you'd imagine. The only way this team can win games, is by attacking, non-stop for 90 minutes.

We'll never see that sub again.

All that said, a point isn't that bad, as long as we beat Stoke.

[amirani]

This needs to be put into context though regarding the defence.

Yesterday we were under no pressure and the manager decided to go 5 at the back, and invite pressure for 35 minutes with a group of players and a goalkeeper who crumble under any sort of pressure, everyone scores.

One of the most baffling decisions I've ever seen from a Liverpool manager.

This group of players cannot defend - why ask them too? This manager isn't that kind of manager. We don't have those players. We've never seen him do it before, for more than 5 minutes.

He had 4/5 changes he could have made yesterday instead that all see us win you'd imagine. The only way this team can win games, is by attacking, non-stop for 90 minutes.

We'll never see that sub again.

All that said, a point isn't that bad, as long as we beat Stoke.

No two games are the same. I feel Klopp isn't to blame for shutting shop at 2-1. There are quite a few times this season where I had hoped Klopp change things tactically and try to see out a game when we are leading. People would have blamed Klopp if we had kept on attacking at 2-1 and then got scored on the counter.

[Kop307]

No two games are the same. I feel Klopp isn't to blame for shutting shop at 2-1. There are quite a few times this season where I had hoped Klopp change things tactically and try to see out a game when we are leading. People would have blamed Klopp if we had kept on attacking at 2-1 and then got scored on the counter.

There is 10 times more evidence with this team to show when we try to defend a lead we concede, than goals on the counter. As soon as this team stops attacking, and tries to defend, we concede.

The change completely changed the game. It invited pressure, and we paid the price. I love Jurgen, but he cost us 2 points yesterday. It was an unbeliveably bad call.

I was at the game, I haven't and won't be watching the highlights. Bournemouth were appalling. They'd have 1 effort on goal and we were hammmering them 2nd half. A 3rd goal was coming and going to 5 at the back stunted us completely, and gave Bournemouth licence to attack. Their goal was inevitable, It was always going to happen the minute Jurgen decided to try and see the game out. No one around me was even remotely shocked when it went in. Under Rafa or Houllier I'd understand, but to see a manager like Jurgen try something like that is mental. It's not in his character and these players can't do it. THe whole thing was just mad.

[Anfield89]

Comparing Clyne's passing / chance creation numbers to Milners is interesting ... Milner doesn't come out of it well.

He shouldn't do really being a right footed midfielder playing left back

[jillcwhomever]

There is 10 times more evidence with this team to show when we try to defend a lead we concede, than goals on the counter. As soon as this team stops attacking, and tries to defend, we concede.

The change completely changed the game. It invited pressure, and we paid the price. I love Jurgen, but he cost us 2 points yesterday. It was an unbeliveably bad call.

I was at the game, I haven't and won't be watching the highlights. Bournemouth were appalling. They'd have 1 effort on goal and we were hammmering them 2nd half. A 3rd goal was coming and going to 5 at the back stunted us completely, and gave Bournemouth licence to attack. Their goal was inevitable, It was always going to happen the minute Jurgen decided to try and see the game out. No one around me was even remotely shocked when it went in. Under Rafa or Houllier I'd understand, but to see a manager like Jurgen try something like that is mental. It's not in his character and these players can't do it. THe whole thing was just mad.

You see you say this, but it is precisely what we are making him do. We want him as our manager but we don't want him to follow his philosophy. We want him to change, and do it the way we want to see it done, rather than allow him to do it the best way he can. This is why I find myself in so much frustration. People were going on about yesterday and why he didn't put the young players on instead? Yet the fact is there are a number of fans in our fanbase who don't want young players anywhere near the first team. Despite the fact that this has always been the way Klopp has worked in the past.

They want proven players, expensive ones with big wages, ready made talents with egos to match, who can change games with one touch of the ball. All the time we're expecting him to change this and change that. What's exactly is the point in us getting him if we're not prepared to trust the way he does things anyway? I have never got that. The more I think about the more I come to the conclusion that Mourinho is the perfect match with some of our fans. Let's face it he'd soon have us play defensive football, with no young player in sight, signing off one cheque after another, as players come and go out of the door. 

[Jfor83]

You see you say this, but it is precisely what we are making him do. We want him as our manager but we don't want him to follow his philosophy. We want him to change, and do it the way we want to see it done, rather than allow him to do it the best way he can. This is why I find myself in so much frustration. People were going on about yesterday and why he didn't put the young players on instead? Yet the fact is there are a number of fans in our fanbase who don't want young players anywhere near the first team. Despite the fact that this has always been the way Klopp has worked in the past.

They want proven players, expensive ones with big wages, ready made talents with egos to match, who can change games with one touch of the ball. All the time we're expecting him to change this and change that. What's exactly is the point in us getting him if we're not prepared to trust the way he does things anyway? I have never got that. The more I think about the more I come to the conclusion that Mourinho is the perfect match with some of our fans. Let's face it he'd soon have us play defensive football, with no young player in sight, signing off one cheque after another, as players come and go out of the door.

What are you ranting about?! Haha ffs!

[jillcwhomever]

What are you ranting about?! Haha ffs!

It's not a rant, I'll leave that to you or someone else whenever you get a result you don't like.  It was actually a question. So many people wanted this guy as our manager 18 months ago, and yet seem totally at odds with how they actually want him to manage our club. So the question is if you wanted him to be the manager why not let him do it his way, the way that has served him successfully in the past?

Today I have skimmed various threads, full of people wanting him to change his approach, whether it be more denfensive, or more attacking, or stay true to what he is(which would be my preferred option). In the match thread, you have people wanting him to know why he didn't put either of the youngsters on last night? In another thread you get some horrified at the mere thought of a young player, getting anywhere near our team. 

So there you go, it is merely a question. When a manager like Klopp arrives, do you trust him enough, to allow him to do it the way it comes natural to him, to manage in the way he has in the past. Or do we want our managers to manage in much the same way?Or do you just want him to manage like Kenny would, or Benitez or god forbid Mourinho? I guess you could phrase it as, do we have patience for a old style visionary, or is there no time for it in the modern game? That's all.

Edit: On second reading maybe the last paragraph of my first post was a rant.   

[Jfor83]

It's not a rant, I'll leave that to you or someone else whenever you get a result you don't like.  It was actually a question. So many people wanted this guy as our manager 18 months ago, and yet seem totally at odds with how they actually want him to manage our club. So the question is if you wanted him to be the manager why not let him do it his way, the way that has served him successfully in the past?

Today I have skimmed various threads, full of people wanting him to change his approach, whether it be more denfensive, or more attacking, or stay true to what he is(which would be my preferred option). In the match thread, you have people wanting him to know why he didn't put either of the youngsters on last night? In another thread you get some horrified at the mere thought of a young player, getting anywhere near our team. 

So there you go, it is merely a question. When a manager like Klopp arrives, do you trust him enough, to allow him to do it the way it comes natural to him, to manage in the way he has in the past. Or do we want our managers to manage in much the same way?Or do you just want him to manage like Kenny would, or Benitez or god forbid Mourinho? I guess you could phrase it as, do we have patience for a old style visionary, or is there no time for it in the modern game? That's all.

Edit: On second reading maybe the last paragraph of my first post was a rant. 

Haha I thought it was a rant and isn't it always the way that everyone thinks they know best?
I haven't come across anyone in person who doesn't want young players around the team or who don't trust him to do things his own way. On the internet everyone(myself included) becomes know alls and say things they wouldn't in person, especially after a poor result.

[McrRed]

Tactically, the substitution was all about the 4-3 game at their's. We got fucked because we were too gung ho. This time Klopp changed the formation, i think to shore us up mentally as much as anything else.

It didn't work.

He will learn from it. Because he's good.

[Fiasco]

I am wondering, how and what more can Klopp do to get us defending second balls better. The staticness of our setup is something which needs to be addressed. We have conceded from long throw ins in similar fashion this season, surely this is something which has to be fixed.
I think we need better defenders, without doubt, and we can't rely on Lovren and Matip with their injury records from this season at least.

The problem with our central defence pecking order is that each one is a spot above where they should be. Matip is a starter, but should perhaps have someone of his ability or better next to him. Then you should have Lovren as third choice and then Klavan. Each player is one spot above where they should be, and when Lovren especially seems to miss runs of games several times as season then the whole stability factor goes (Matip has missed a few games also, I appreciate that).

It's not about numbers, it's about quality. We don't have enough of it in defence.

[smurfinaus]

What are peoples opinions of the system vs the defenders we have at the club?. Does Matip fill the shoes of the commanding CB we craved all summer last season?.I mean both Milner and Clyne are much more defensive that going forward types but we still concede. Is Lovren the problem? (im still convinced Sakho is the better player sadly).

[Jfor83]

What are peoples opinions of the system vs the defenders we have at the club?. Does Matip fill the shoes of the commanding CB we craved all summer last season?.I mean both Milner and Clyne are much more defensive that going forward types but we still concede. Is Lovren the problem? (im still convinced Sakho is the better player sadly).

Matip isn't a commanding CB, he's decent enough but I think he's still to totally convince. Lovren needs replacing in the first XI, clyne is useless with the ball and milners been ok especially since he's a midfielder but if we'd bought him in as a LB I think we'd be disappointed. The less said about mignolet the better. So all good then!

[hide5seek]

It's not a rant, I'll leave that to you or someone else whenever you get a result you don't like.  It was actually a question. So many people wanted this guy as our manager 18 months ago, and yet seem totally at odds with how they actually want him to manage our club. So the question is if you wanted him to be the manager why not let him do it his way, the way that has served him successfully in the past?

Today I have skimmed various threads, full of people wanting him to change his approach, whether it be more denfensive, or more attacking, or stay true to what he is(which would be my preferred option). In the match thread, you have people wanting him to know why he didn't put either of the youngsters on last night? In another thread you get some horrified at the mere thought of a young player, getting anywhere near our team. 

So there you go, it is merely a question. When a manager like Klopp arrives, do you trust him enough, to allow him to do it the way it comes natural to him, to manage in the way he has in the past. Or do we want our managers to manage in much the same way?Or do you just want him to manage like Kenny would, or Benitez or god forbid Mourinho? I guess you could phrase it as, do we have patience for a old style visionary, or is there no time for it in the modern game? That's all.

Edit: On second reading maybe the last paragraph of my first post was a rant.   

No team can attack attack attack in the premiership. Doesn't matter how fit you are or how much you run eventually there are enough teams in the premiership who will see your players legs tire and then they'll pounce. Klopp whether he likes it or not has to get us defending better, it's not rocket science. Still baffled why we've not brought ourselves a bloody good defensive midfielder.
Also Klopp seemed happy with this squad before the season started, that in itself asks questions.

[El Lobo]

It's not a rant, I'll leave that to you or someone else whenever you get a result you don't like.  It was actually a question. So many people wanted this guy as our manager 18 months ago, and yet seem totally at odds with how they actually want him to manage our club. So the question is if you wanted him to be the manager why not let him do it his way, the way that has served him successfully in the past?

Honestly could not have put this any better or clearer, and needs to be repeated in a number of threads like you mention 

[LallanaInPyjamas]

Tactically, the substitution was all about the 4-3 game at their's. We got fucked because we were too gung ho. This time Klopp changed the formation, i think to shore us up mentally as much as anything else.

It didn't work.

He will learn from it. Because he's good.

Exactly. I'm not a fan of going five at the back mid-game because I think you automatically cede possession to the opposition, which shouldn't be the case at home to a weaker side. Watching Everton at United the night before, Koeman did exactly the same by bringing Pennington on for Mirallas and it had the exact same effect.

That said, you can see why he did it, and like with Everton, it almost worked. The reason it didn't is that we have a few defenders who cannot handle any form of pressure, whether it's an aerial onslaught or balls into feet around the box. We have a few players who aren't good enough to be playing as many games as they have this season - or in Klavan's case, any games as far as I'm concerned - and a squad which Klopp clearly doesn't feel he can rely on.

If he'd had a better attacker or midfielder on the bench who he feels he can fully rely on, then I don't think he'd have made that change. Certainly not so early.

[JackWard33]

What are peoples opinions of the system vs the defenders we have at the club?. Does Matip fill the shoes of the commanding CB we craved all summer last season?.I mean both Milner and Clyne are much more defensive that going forward types but we still concede. Is Lovren the problem? (im still convinced Sakho is the better player sadly).

when Matip and Lovren have played together our defence has been good - very good considering how high our full backs play. Sadly they've only played together 10 or so times and our back ups aren't good enough.

[LallanaInPyjamas]

Honestly Lovren isn't perfect by any means but it's absolutely barmy how fans' opinions on him still haven't changed because of how bad he was in his first few months at the club. He's been extremely consistent under Klopp.

As individual players him and Matip are absolutely fine with the exception of their injury records. We're unbeaten in the league when they've been on the pitch together.

No system reset is required, we just still need exactly what we needed last summer: a durable, robust, top-class centre half to challenge them and a quality left back.

[ScubaSteve]

Honestly Lovren isn't perfect by any means but it's absolutely barmy how fans' opinions on him still haven't changed because of how bad he was in his first few months at the club. He's been extremely consistent under Klopp.

As individual players him and Matip are absolutely fine with the exception of their injury records. We're unbeaten in the league when they've been on the pitch together.

No system reset is required, we just still need exactly what we needed last summer: a durable, robust, top-class centre half to challenge them and a quality left back.

I agree with you on the Lovren point!! I think he's been pretty good this year..I'm happy with Lovren and Matip as a partnership if they can both avoid injury!

[cress]

What are peoples opinions of the system vs the defenders we have at the club?.

I'd say it's a bit of both. Systematically we carry a high line to press. Which means for one we need quick defenders at a minimum. Then you need players who are used to this type of defending. I'm not sure what type of football schalke played when Matip was there but Southampton didn't play that style defensively when Lovren was there. He is having to forget the style he's been used to playing and learn a new one, with attributes he possibly doesn't have in his locker. Same with Milner he doesn't have the right set of attributes to play Left Wing Back, for one he's not left footed and with coutinho in the Left Attacking role cutting inside that allows the oppositions right back space to run towards Milner. With their right sided midfielder/attacker able to keep Milner occupied as well. Then you have to look at our left sided cb coming across to cover which leaves space for central attackers.

Personally I feel that we currently have systematic issues and personnel issues. In my opinion we need to look at getting someone with pace in the left attacking slot (ala mane/winger type) and a quick solid left back. Then look for central defenders who play with a high line and are successful at it to replace Lovren. Coutinho could then be brought more central, maybe rotating with Lallana throughout the season.

The issue is you need to recruit players that are A) Used to this system, B) Have the right attributes for the roles and C) Improve what we currently have.

Though it's entirely possible to keep what we have when we play the top teams who will come out and try and assert themselves. Which could then lead to us having a toolkit approach towards recruitment, and buying certain players to play against certain teams.

Essentially it is also important to note that our system is based on attacking and defending as a team. So you can't prioritize improving one segment of the system without affecting the other. In example, we drop the defensive line then we either leave a big gap between defenders or drop the midfielder back which then leaves a gap to the attackers or you drop the attack back which then means you can't press their defense effectively.

[pyroparty]

I think Matip is brilliant, Lovren is fine with him too, not perfect but think they've conceded 10 in 11 league games they've started, thats absolutely ok given the way we play! Lovren and Sakho were also fine last season, the problem comes when one is missing and given all of them seem to get injuries and Lovren gets every virus going it happens a lot! A game here or there is fine but we are 31 games in and our first choice centre backs have played together 11 times if my stats are right! Doesn't matter much if the back up is high quality like when Agger would come in for Sami and partner Carra but barely any team on earth has that luxury right now with the lack of top cbs around (maybe Bayern or Juve). But we are going to need to find one from somewhere or change the way we play a bit, can't go on conceding 2s and 3s to teams that average a goal per game for fuck sake!