Author Topic: UEFA Cup Final Round Table. Liverpool 1 Sevilla 3  (Read 6945 times)

Offline Yorkykopite

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UEFA Cup Final Round Table. Liverpool 1 Sevilla 3
« on: May 21, 2016, 09:46:38 PM »
UEFA CUP FINAL 2016  – Liverpool 1 Sevilla 3

I saw the game once. I’ll never see it again. I might, in future, be capable of watching a replay of the sublime Sturridge goal, just as I can sometimes bring myself to watch Jimmy Case’s famous strike in the 1977 Cup Final, but the rest of the game is now in the dustbin where it belongs, never to be seen again, at least by me.

We entered the final with confidence. It felt like our year. The big question before the game was whether Liverpool would win in their usual cup-final style (narrowly, possibly after falling behind, probably through penalties) or whether, for once, the Reds would ease to a victory – something that last happened, in a major final, under Graeme Souness against Sunderland at Wembley in 1992. But we would win, that much was certain. We’d scalped too many good teams on the way to Basel, including VillareaI, a superior outfit – according to the Spanish league table – than the boys from Seville. We also had a fantastic following in Switzerland where three sides of the ground were decked in Liverpool red so turning the St Jakob into an away game for Sevilla. And we knew how poor they were when playing ‘away’.

And therefore defeat seems to possess an extra bitterness, even though – as we must all be aware – it was entirely deserved in the end.

It was a wretched first five minutes and I must admit some of my own confidence began to ebb a bit. It’s not that Sevilla showed any quality (they were hoofing); but rather that we seemed unable to impose any pattern on the game. The defence either struggled to recycle the ball quickly or were pressed by Sevilla’s mobile front line into wild clearances. Phil Neville’s comment, before the game, about the Spanish team being physical and athletic was turning out to be accurate.  After about 10 minutes Coutinho finally got on the ball but he was quickly hustled off. That, too, turned out to be a major story of the night. I was surprised that Jurgen kept faith with him in the second half. It was a feeble performance from Liverpool’s best player – and evidence, certainly, that little Phil has much to do before he can take his place among the world’s elite players.

After about 20 minutes the Reds did begin to stir, largely because Clyne kept finding room on the right flank.  What a fine player he is. Solid in the tackle, quick to recover, physically strong but with dainty feet too. Almost all the good things that happened in the first half came through his marauding runs on the right-hand side. It was a bit like watching Pennant in Athens. Although, like Pennant in Athens, Clyne had no such success in the second half as Sevilla battened down that particular hatch after the break. Good management from their guy.

The goal was fantastic – so far above anything else that happened on the pitch that it seemed it was destined to belong to the winning team. Faith surged through the players and for 15 minutes or so we were a Klopp side again.  There was movement ahead of Emre Can at last with Lallana finding pockets of space and Firmino making astute diagonal runs across Sevilla’s back-pedalling defence. Lovren’s header was rightly struck off because of a lazy waft of Sturridge’s leg – the instinctive movement of a goal poacher if we’re being kind, a fatal lack of awareness if we’re not. Had that goal stood there’d have been no way back for the Spanish team.   

Later it was said that Liverpool “dominated” the first half. That wasn’t true. We edged it and we deserved the advantage. But even in the first 45 there were little signs that Sevilla had a style of play that was difficult to deal with. I thought they were winning most of the 50-50 challenges, which Klopp’s Liverpool aren’t used to, and numerous times they employed the nutmeg to great effect. I haven’t seen enough of La Liga to know whether this skill has now become a staple of Spanish football, but it was amazing to see how regularly it happened in the course of this game. Indeed two of the Sevilla goals included damaging nutmegs in the build up – against Moreno for the first and against Lovren for the second. 

Of course we had three penalty claims in the first half, none of which were clear-cut but all of which represented decent shouts (“I’ve seen them given Gary”). The first would have been the harshest. Firmino certainly outwitted his man and would have left him for dead but for the ball striking Carrico’s arm.  What saved the Spaniard was probably his proximity to the ball when it was lifted up by the Liverpool player. The second penalty claim was stronger because an out-of-control defender allowed the ball to come off his hand while sliding into Moreno. The ball hit the hand through ineptitude rather than design and therefore I suppose it was ‘accidental’. But I’ve always found that a weak reason not to award a penalty. It puts a premium on incompetence or clumsiness and makes the game more of a lottery.  The laws of football need more clarity here because of the sheer number of times poor defenders handle the ball because of basic lack of technique. The third shout was of course the best. Sturridge’s quicksilver movement and subtle through ball to Firmino – and he was through – completely outfoxed the otherwise excellent Kyrchowiak who dragged his knuckles along the ground to prevent the ball reaching its target.  Come of Ref!

I felt convinced that the referee would be told he’d got things wrong at half time and, in the nature of things, we’d probably reap the benefit in the second half. It wasn’t like that! Right from the kick off Sevilla threw men forward and suddenly our defence was faced by two or three more bodies between them and the midfield. Moreno’s header was criminal of course, but it was the fact that Sevilla already had three men making staggered runs into the box in readiness for the cross that was impressive. 

After that everything unravelled. Was it capitulation? It felt like it. The Red Army fell silent and Klopp’s side became a ragged mess. The exception was Toure who produced a memorable defensive performance – his best ever in the red shirt of Liverpool and probably his last. He’ll always be remembered affectionately at Anfield and now, after Basel, he’ll also remembered with great respect. It was towering defending and had we won it might have been compared with Carragher’s performance in Istanbul.

Which reminds me, I hated Carragher's tweet about Moreno after the game. Yes, he’s a Liverpool fan and was probably hurting with the rest of us, but we lost in Basel for far bigger reasons than just Alberto Moreno (great decoy run, by the way, from Moreno for our goal). And some of us have long memories. I remember another diabolical performance by a Liverpool left back in a UEFA Cup final. We survived to win that day, in Dortmund, but Jamie turned in a really dreadful show that made a mockery of his winner's medal.

Should Jurgen have changed things after the goal? With hindsight, most definitely. But even without hindsight it was clear something was wrong with our play in the first half. I actually called (half-jokingly it should be said) for Lucas to replace Coutinho at half time because Can was being asked to do too much. And while Phil is an inspirational player there are games – this was so obviously one – where he’s simply not at the races. As it was we laboured on with our starting eleven, our attack losing contact with midfield, our midfield losing contact with defence, and the whole team constantly running backwards. If we were still pressing the ball it was now as individuals. Lallana made one crazy run across the pitch to press the ball that threw the rest of the team into anarchy. Milner started drifting out wide, where admittedly he is a better player, so accentuating Can’s isolation. By the third goal, we were a rabble and it was horrible to see.

Enough!

OK, it's not all gloom. It was important for the club to appear in the European big time again and our famous run to the final meant that there was an unusual focus on the tournament this year - and not just in England and Spain. One result is that we reminded the European football world of the magic of Anfield and the mythology that surrounds our club. That's got to be good.

Secondly we have Jurgen Klopp. Without him we'd have trickled out of Europe several weeks ago. With him, we are candidates for election again. Next season he will have a full 7 days to prepare his team for virtually every fixture. That was not a popular thing to say on Thursday morning, and rightly so. But now things have settled down it's worth considering what this means. Klopp is a perfectionist as well as a motivator. This year he was thrown into a maelstrom at Liverpool. Not only was there a huge shortfall in confidence amongst the squad and a depression that amounted to trauma among the supporters, there was also a fixture pile-up that went beyond anything experienced by the new management team. What followed for Jurgen Klopp was a crash course in Premier League management. It must have all been very bewildering. He tackled the job fantastically well, but a lot of it must have been through blind faith and inspiration. There was hardly time for anything else.

Well now he knows. I'm sure he's been tempered by the experience of having to fight on several fronts. But next season it will be calmer and his team will be more ferocious and more focussed, more consistently. Jurgen made a comment after the game which could be dismissed as "putting on a brave face", He said that Liverpool Football Club might one day look back on Basel as the beginning of something - a catalyst of sorts. I don't think it was bravado. I think he was making a considered judgment. How many of those players who appeared against Sevilla last week will appear again in Red in August no one yet knows. I suspect most of them. But with the new additions coming in, and with more to follow, and with a Klopp pre-season under our belts, 2016-17 could be a big ride. So we should now forget Basel. It's not relevant anymore. It won't affect our upward trajectory. It won't affect our manager's spirit. Next season we'll be stronger. Much stronger.



« Last Edit: May 21, 2016, 10:42:35 PM by Yorkykopite »
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Offline John C

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Re: UEFA Cup Final Round Table. Liverpool 1 Sevilla 3
« Reply #1 on: May 22, 2016, 08:19:48 AM »
It still hurts, incredibly so.
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Re: UEFA Cup Final Round Table. Liverpool 1 Sevilla 3
« Reply #2 on: May 22, 2016, 09:12:53 AM »
That's a very fair assessment I think Yorky.  Thanks for the write up,  there's not a lot I can add to that but hard to disagree with any of the major points!
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Offline Red_Mist

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Re: UEFA Cup Final Round Table. Liverpool 1 Sevilla 3
« Reply #3 on: May 22, 2016, 09:52:32 AM »
Great write up Yorkie.

I'd say "capitulation" is right. I watched it in a pub in Manchester and the atmosphere was brilliant first half helped by the outside of Sturridge's boot (btw, the pub was packed with Liverpool supporters if anyone needs a safe haven in Mcr...pm me and I'll give you the name, rather than advertise it in public). The second half it fell quieter, punctuated by agonised shouts of frustration and anger. Across the world from Liverpool to Manchester and Basel to Boston everyone knew, could see this was not going to be our night. We ran out of steam at exactly the same time as Sevilla went for it. Painful to watch as you say. Lucas for Countinho would've been a great hindsight sub at half time.

Glad you finished on an optimistic note. I'm in the ''ALWAYS want European football EVERY season, whatever the competition" camp....but now that we're not, it's ok to acknowledge a potential positive from Klopp having more time with his players. Already looking forward to next season.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2016, 09:55:02 AM by Red_Mist »

Offline davidsteventon

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Re: UEFA Cup Final Round Table. Liverpool 1 Sevilla 3
« Reply #4 on: May 22, 2016, 09:57:10 AM »
Very fair indeed. I'll unlikely watch that back either.



Since Rafa left we've never had the right spine within the team, or players who understand how to manage a game. There's a quote either from Ferguson, or about his United team being the best at knowing when to do nothing.

Sevilla the other night knew when to do nothing. Knew when to attack. Knew when to waste time, when to go long, when to try it on.

We only beat Dortmund at home because they were too nice and tried to play instead of seeing the game out.



That second half was one of the most pathetic displays I've seen from us. If Sevilla were world class I'd have just clapped and said well done - well beaten here. They were good, but it felt like we didn't even try and that's what hurts.








Offline BCCC

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Re: UEFA Cup Final Round Table. Liverpool 1 Sevilla 3
« Reply #5 on: May 22, 2016, 10:15:28 AM »
Good summary that Yorky. Hadn't seen Carra's tweet and agree he shouldn't be having a go. I love Moreno's attitude but it's clear as night and day that you can drive a bus through the left hand side of our defence. Every team we play exploits it and the better quality the opposition the more creative and incisive they are at exploiting it.

The solution may be complex or simple and obviously the simple solution is just to replace Moreno. A Mascherano type player covering his frailties may work and help him develop, changing the shape could work and whatever it is will have been mulled over a thousand times by Jurgen.

I still believe we need a match winner to replace Gerrard. You only have to look at Rooney's contribution in the cup final to see how one player can change the game when they refuse to be beaten. They obviously don't come cheap but a Gerrard at his peak could've been the difference in two finals this season.

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Offline RedKenWah

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Re: UEFA Cup Final Round Table. Liverpool 1 Sevilla 3
« Reply #6 on: May 22, 2016, 10:20:56 AM »
I can't argue with any of that op, it sums up the game pretty well.

It's also interesting to let things settle and then think back on the game, or to re watch the game and then you can see things more objectively. For instance looking at Moreno objectively. He'd done some very good things during the game and yes he did some truly terrible things during the game as well. Personally for their first goal, i would have been absolutely fine for him to have brought the player down, because i think it was outside of the box at the time. Bring him down, give away a free kick, take a booking and then defend from that. Again though that stems from a probability that Moreno isn't a traditional LB or defender. He's more attacking minded.

I think there were plenty of lessons learned on the pitch about us, like there could be an argument now that Moreno for instance could be a player better utilized further forward? There could have been a better substitution plan from our management as well as it did seem very desperate with each substitution... and going from an attacking quadrant of Sturridge, Lallana, Firmino & Coutinho to ending up with a front 3 of Origi, Sturridge & Benteke... it would have taken something special to have pulled something back to stay within the game. Maybe next season the game management will be there because there will be a team that Klopp wants there.

i think looking back, if we had won that game, won a cup, and been in Europe next season, could we say we would be ready for it? I honestly don't think we would have been? I think this game being lost and the way we finished in the league will allow Klopp the time to do what he needs to do to make this Brendan Rodgers side into a Jurgen Klopp side. He's already started the process as we know, but he'll be able to do so even more now with more time, more preparation and that surely has to be a good thing?

It was hard to take losing this game, but if it means it's the catalyst for greater things, then this game will have been worth it.

Offline Lazy Gun

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Re: UEFA Cup Final Round Table. Liverpool 1 Sevilla 3
« Reply #7 on: May 22, 2016, 10:22:36 AM »
A great OP.... nail on head unfortunately.


We were all buoyed by the great performances leading up to the final and too optimistic.  Such is the mentality of a supporter.


The nature of the second half collapse was quite bewildering.  Why cant we just drop into a neat 4-4 defensive pattern to ride out the storm and then build back into the game. Its either not trained or the players lack the game intelligence to batten down the hatches for period and go again.  We were overwhelmed in the midfield and just completely lost our shape, and any shape however defensive, is better than no shape.


Gloom over.  We have Klopp, a summer to rebuild the team, moving on many and bringing in some new faces.  I am hugely optimistic for the season ahead.  Remember the last season we didn't have European Football. That wild crazy ride that shoulda, coulda given us the title.  2103/14 here we come again.
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Re: UEFA Cup Final Round Table. Liverpool 1 Sevilla 3
« Reply #8 on: May 22, 2016, 10:56:51 AM »
Great encapsulation of what went on Yorky lad. Thanks for that.

However, unlike yourself I have been brave [stupid?] enough to re-watch and that rewatch left me pondering whether we'd have seen an entirely different game with a "livewire in your face attacking outlet" on the pitch for 90 minutes instead of the current relative luxury [yeah amazing goal but honestly what else] that is Daniel.

How different would our entire game have been had say Gameiro been wearing red and Daniel white? How much did that starkly contrasting tempo up front set the tone for how the game transpired - particularly second half of course.

None of us know of course and I've always rated Daniel so highly - no more so than when he bent that amazing goal in last Wednesday - but however much some games can turn on a one second incident - for most of the time a game is not about a fleeting few seconds but an entire 90 plus minutes and a re-watch certainly did leave me with that reflection.

I wonder how Kloppie's re-watches went?

Offline Johnnyboy1973

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Re: UEFA Cup Final Round Table. Liverpool 1 Sevilla 3
« Reply #9 on: May 22, 2016, 11:01:03 AM »
Sturridge is our one true world class player.

The biggest questions surrounding that game come from the laborious display of our three creators behind him.

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Re: UEFA Cup Final Round Table. Liverpool 1 Sevilla 3
« Reply #10 on: May 22, 2016, 11:10:41 AM »
Sturridge is our one true world class player.

The biggest questions surrounding that game come from the laborious display of our three creators behind him.

I'd say Daniel is capable of truly world class moments and maybe the reality is he's still only part of the way along the road back to full match fitness but Wednesday showed that in terms of the way the game today requires a front man leading the line in the manner Gameiro did for them, the current Daniel is quite some way off the mark.

And in terms of the other three - yes they were pretty shit [certainly the two Brazilians] but I think you have to ask the question what if they had had the likes of gameiro infront of them? how different might things have been. Doesn't excuse them of course for how poor they were but I'm simply left pondering as to how different it might have been say with a fully fit Origi leading the line. Or - maybe - a fully fit Daniel performing like he did so amazingly [without a goal incidentally] at White hart lane some 20 months ago just prior to when soft bollocks Hodson chose to single handedly attempt to wreck his career and our ensuing two seasons.

One thing's for sure.

The current Daniel may still be capable of world class cameos but I doubt there's many defenders who find they have to break much sweat dealing with him for 99% of the time right now.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2016, 11:15:49 AM by Timbo's Goals »

Offline Johnnyboy1973

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Re: UEFA Cup Final Round Table. Liverpool 1 Sevilla 3
« Reply #11 on: May 22, 2016, 11:16:15 AM »
but Wednesday showed that in terms of the way the game today requires a front man leading the line in the manner gameiro did for them

There's no way you were saying that at half time.

And in terms of the other three - yes they were pretty shit [certainly the two brazilians] but I think you have to ask the question what if they had had the likes of gameiro infront of them?

I think you have to ask the question what if Sturridge had had the likes of Coke and Banega behind him.

Sturridge has proven himself to be top drawer unlike any of the three behind him (of which Firminio would have by far the strongest case).

It amazes me you can watch that game and us and think the problem was/is Sturridge.

Offline stockdam

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Re: UEFA Cup Final Round Table. Liverpool 1 Sevilla 3
« Reply #12 on: May 22, 2016, 11:18:42 AM »
I'll just take up one quote for the first post.

"Later it was said that Liverpool “dominated” the first half. "

Well yes I do think we did after a nervous start and I said so in the half-time debate.

Sevilla offered nothing in the first half and they constantly resorted to the long ball. We were passing the ball and dominating the right hand side through Clyne. We were hounding them down when they had the ball and not giving them any time to develop any attacks. It was so evident that we would go on to win. As for the penalty shouts.......the first one was pretty clear and the third one was blatant.........a player cannot spread his arms and hope to get away with it if his hand is hit no matter how close to the ball he is.

We had been so dominant towards the end of the first half that I didn't rush back to watch the start of the second half. I was still fuming that two clear hand balls had not been given and I feared that this would be an important aspect of the game. Then suddenly, bam, they scored.

After the goal we still looked like we would regain a strangle-hold on the game. However slowly Sevilla started to win most of the ball and we stopped chasing them. We sat back and let them play through our midfield who were all unable now to prevent it. In the first half their defenders had most of the ball and they were prevented from getting it to the midfield. In the 2nd half we sat back and surrendered midfield. The pace and movement of their forwards made our defenders look slow. Clyne, who was playing as a winger now had to stay back. When the ball did go upfield, our forwards were isolated and the ball was easily won back.

So for me the big problem was that our midfield (and forwards) stopped pressing. The midfield stood off their men and Sevilla started to use their midfield. When that happened we should have brought both Allen and Lucas on to get in among them and disrupt. Our ball carrying midfield now were redundant.

Make no mistake. This was a very important game for us and we had a wonderful chance to go into the CL. I don't get this idea that players will come just because of Klopp. They'll look at a team who came 8th........yes 8th, in the league and have no European football. We are no further on than we were this time last year and we are in fact worse off. We all expect Klopp to have a good season coming up but he needs some new players and unfortunately it will be all the harder now that we have no European football.

Yet again we are looking at a major re-organisation of our squad even though we have some very good players. The fact is that we are so erratic and as a defensive unit we are weak all over the pitch.

One ray of hope for me is that Leicester, Spurs and West Ham found some very good players who didn't cost a fortune. That's what we now need, a new batch of good young payers who will take us forward. We need a couple of winners in the squad; players like Gerrard in his prime who could take a game by the scruff of the neck and win.

It's going to be a very big challenge and I hope that Klopp gets rid of the players who are not winners no matter how good they are at times. We need players who are at minimum 6 out of 10 every week and who don't go missing.
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Re: UEFA Cup Final Round Table. Liverpool 1 Sevilla 3
« Reply #13 on: May 22, 2016, 11:22:23 AM »
Sturridge is our one true world class player.

The biggest questions surrounding that game come from the laborious display of our three creators behind him.

As quiet as they all were I felt a lot of that stemmed from our midfield being outplayed (and outnumbered). Coutinho was quiet but I don't recall him being terrible in the ball, I just don't remember him being on the ball!
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Offline Rush 82

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Re: UEFA Cup Final Round Table. Liverpool 1 Sevilla 3
« Reply #14 on: May 22, 2016, 11:22:43 AM »
Fantastic summary.  Absolutely fantastic. 

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Re: UEFA Cup Final Round Table. Liverpool 1 Sevilla 3
« Reply #15 on: May 22, 2016, 11:25:39 AM »
A fit Origi starts ahead of a fit Sturridge in a Klopp team.
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Offline davidsteventon

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Re: UEFA Cup Final Round Table. Liverpool 1 Sevilla 3
« Reply #16 on: May 22, 2016, 11:29:19 AM »
I wonder how Kloppie's re-watches went?

Stats probably say Sturridge is as good as he was.
My eyes tell me different. I witnessed him lose an 80/20 race in his favour on Wednesday.


He's not the biggest reason we lost this game, but I'll be amazed if he's the answer next season.

He plays better in a two. He comes too deep as one.
Coutinho/Firminho both had their worst game of the season.
It's hard to know if Sturridge suffered due to them, they suffered due to him, or a lack of calm head in a correct position in the middle made all suffer.

I don't know. I hope Klopp does.


We go again. Again. (Again).

Offline redboxingyeti

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Re: UEFA Cup Final Round Table. Liverpool 1 Sevilla 3
« Reply #17 on: May 22, 2016, 11:40:56 AM »
What a fantastic summary, echoes all of my thoughts.
We have had so many memorable games that you cannot tire of watching, that on the flip side their are horror shows that you just want to erase from your mind. Some of these are due to the result (Milan 07), some are due to the performance, or lack of (Stoke last season) and unfortunately some are both. The Seville game was one of these...

BUT, after much frustration, anger and upset, there is room for optimism. Our last season without European football heralded our best league campaign for years, where we should have won the biggest prize of all - surely, under Jurgen we can do something similar, and perhaps even go one better ? I'd like to hope so.


 

Offline Johnnyboy1973

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Re: UEFA Cup Final Round Table. Liverpool 1 Sevilla 3
« Reply #18 on: May 22, 2016, 11:41:05 AM »
As quiet as they all were I felt a lot of that stemmed from our midfield being outplayed (and outnumbered). Coutinho was quiet but I don't recall him being terrible in the ball, I just don't remember him being on the ball!

It was definitely part of it, but I also feel their willingness to get on the ball wasn't there either - Firminio less so and Coutihno moreso who disappeared as he has done for the last month.

This was compounded further by our defenders propensity in the first half to take the leather off thus ensuring they weren't that player who messed up.

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Re: UEFA Cup Final Round Table. Liverpool 1 Sevilla 3
« Reply #19 on: May 22, 2016, 11:55:18 AM »
I know it's not the done thing, but some criticism for that second half needs to go to Klopp for his game management.

The first goal of theirs happens, sometimes teams score very early. What is clear after that is that the heads went on the pitch. They swarmed all over our midfield, and it was only a cracking save from Mignolet and a ridiculous bit of acceleration from Toure to make a block that kept us on terms before their second. We weren't getting enough of the ball and they seemed to outnumber us everywhere. Up top we had Sturridge who'd lost either pace or motivation, Coutinho, Lallana and Firminho who were on the periphery at best, and then we had Can and Milner who were overwhelmed. But, we had Lucas and Henderson on the bench. Two experienced players who, you'd hope, would relish a big game. Perhaps Henderson wasn't fit, in which case he shouldn't have been on the bench - in which case Lucas was the obvious choice (using the same logic that saw Rafa bring on Hamann when everyone was crying out for Cisse in 2005).

But on the flip side, I wonder to what extent we literally just ran out of steam in the second half. We've played more than 60 games this season (so around 20 more than we played in 13/14) and recent injuries as well as Sakho have left us thin on resources. It also showed what we need in the summer, some leadership and a bit more experience.

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Re: UEFA Cup Final Round Table. Liverpool 1 Sevilla 3
« Reply #20 on: May 22, 2016, 12:14:44 PM »
A fit Origi starts ahead of a fit Sturridge in a Klopp team.
Yes an excellent OP. I was bewildered by the amount of time Sturridge was dropping deep in the second half, which I can only put down to him feeling starved of supply. Different reffing might still have us the winning side in that game. I mentioned in the postmatch thread video replay would have done that also.
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Offline Timbo's Goals

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Re: UEFA Cup Final Round Table. Liverpool 1 Sevilla 3
« Reply #21 on: May 22, 2016, 12:25:11 PM »
There's no way you were saying that at half time.

I think you have to ask the question what if Sturridge had had the likes of Coke and Banega behind him.

Sturridge has proven himself to be top drawer unlike any of the three behind him (of which Firminio would have by far the strongest case).

It amazes me you can watch that game and us and think the problem was/is Sturridge.

At half time nobody foresaw what was to come. Obviously.

But with respect Johnny  - as I see it, you're simply defending the realm [the Sturridge realm that is] rather than considering with an open mind what actually transpired on the night. You're starting off with the pre-determined premise that the magnificence of his goal and the world classness which quite understandably you bestow upon him mean that Sturridge on the night was fine both for himself and the team. Hence you 'tune' your 'take' on the game and him to suit that stance. Hence if it went wrong then it simply has to be down to something else other than Sturridge - who - according to you - is our only world class player.

[Incidentally judged by individual performances Wednesday night where does that leave Kolo in the world class stakes!!  ;D]

I never had any pre-conceived 'take'. I simply watched the game again to try to determine how it went tits up. As I watched it unfold again, the stark contrast between their game with that livewire attacking outlet causing us real problems all game and our game with Daniel scarcely causing them [amazing goal apart] hardly any concern at all.

Clearly, there are all the other considerations that affected the outcome not least the two brazilians ineptitude, the utter absurdity of Moreno's huge hand in at least two of their goals and the raw deal we had with the decisions of the match officials.

My observation is apart from those other things and is not something I've read much about but on my rewatch it came across loud and clear as a signiificant factor in how the game developed and ultimately ran out.

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Re: UEFA Cup Final Round Table. Liverpool 1 Sevilla 3
« Reply #22 on: May 22, 2016, 12:27:13 PM »
What a fantastically condescending post :D
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Re: UEFA Cup Final Round Table. Liverpool 1 Sevilla 3
« Reply #23 on: May 22, 2016, 12:32:24 PM »
What a fantastically condescending post :D

Coming from RAWK's leading exponent of condescension - that's some compliment!


 ;D

Incidentally - note for Johnny, it wasn't intended to come across that way - and apologies if it did - but it was the thing that screamed out at me on my re-watch almost as much as Alberto's brain farts. And troubled me a lot - I guess mainly because I do rate Danny so highly.


« Last Edit: May 22, 2016, 12:35:25 PM by Timbo's Goals »

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Re: UEFA Cup Final Round Table. Liverpool 1 Sevilla 3
« Reply #24 on: May 22, 2016, 12:33:27 PM »
The second half collapse wasn't the first one this season, far from. We have been outplayed in midfield in lots of games this season.

Our buildup from defense is quite terrible. We have two central midfielders who are slow on the turn and average dribblers (Henderson is similar). The tactics against us is very simple: Put pressure on Can & Milner, which is quite easy, force the CBs to play long. Our attacking four are not at all set for handling long balls, so 80% of the time the opponents get the ball. This puts the team under enormous pressure. The solution? We need a playmaker, desperately. I would also like to see Coutinho and Firmino to drop deep and help out more often.

In defense, I think the gegenpressing is not working as it should. Can and Milner usually join the pack of ball chasers, leaving a huge hole in front of our defense. None of them have any of Lucas' anticipation or understanding of space. Lucas has similar numbers of interceptions, and far more tackles won, in about 30% less starts. Lucas has other limitations, unfortunately. I hope that Can develops his defensive intelligence, because he has bags of talent and could be an awesome DM. He's gotten much better already, but he has a lot to learn.

Another concern is that the three attacking midfielders are a bit too similar. They like to make the final pass, but with only one striker we need a lot more runs into the box. Milner on the wing could give us that.

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Re: UEFA Cup Final Round Table. Liverpool 1 Sevilla 3
« Reply #25 on: May 22, 2016, 12:35:42 PM »
There's no way I can watch that game. See a defense that hoofs it - a midfield that doesn't control - attacking mids who don't get on it - an isolated striker and come to the conclusion it would all have been so different if we had Gameiro up top rather than Sturridge.

He was the least of our concerns and should be when we look to the future - those sort of numbers are difficult to find.

It's not about a take or confirmation bias. I just think you're wrong - simple as that. So, we'll leave it there.

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Re: UEFA Cup Final Round Table. Liverpool 1 Sevilla 3
« Reply #26 on: May 22, 2016, 12:56:17 PM »
Another concern is that the three attacking midfielders are a bit too similar. They like to make the final pass, but with only one striker we need a lot more runs into the box. Milner on the wing could give us that.

Firmino is quite good at getting into the box, I think.

Milner needs to be out on the wing as he's not a CM.

I went out for a smoke at half time, feeling extremely confident. Came back in a bit late to see they'd scored. It was like someone had changed the channel to a parallel universe. Overcoming the deficit one more time was just too much for this team after 60 games.

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Re: UEFA Cup Final Round Table. Liverpool 1 Sevilla 3
« Reply #27 on: May 22, 2016, 12:57:55 PM »
Can't handle the big occasions... The Chelsea slips, the carling cup final, the Europa final, when we were on a run when Jurgen came where everyone was talking top 4.

The problem is in the head, on the field we have decent players
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Offline FLRed67

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Re: UEFA Cup Final Round Table. Liverpool 1 Sevilla 3
« Reply #28 on: May 22, 2016, 01:08:35 PM »
"It was a wretched first five minutes and I must admit some of my own confidence began to ebb a bit. It’s not that Sevilla showed any quality (they were hoofing); but rather that we seemed unable to impose any pattern on the game."

Sturridge's wonder goal has us forgetting how average we actually were for the first half hour. Though that obviously looked good compared to the horror show in the second half.

The way the players lost their heads in the second half (not to mention our inability to find our passing rhythm until almost the end of the first half), gave the appearance of a team that was not prepared well.

I believe Klopp needs to change the way he approaches finals.

"It's all or nothing!" is not what sports psychologists would advise you tell elite athletes before a big event.

Drill the game plan, and prep a plan B, and a plan C. Above all, stay as relaxed as possible. Given that the players are probably already nervous, winding them up even more is typically counterproductive. 

I understand Klopp feeds on emotion. It is part of his coaching style. And it can work at Anfield to get the crowd behind the team. But I'm not sure high emotion is the way to prepare players for a final. My sense is Klopp is sometimes confusing players with fans.

And before the attacks begin:  I certainly do not have an anti-Klopp agenda. I was as excited as everyone else when he was announced as our coach. I desperately want him to succeed.

But I do believe he needs help preparing the team emotionally and psychologically. His record in finals is quite poor. (We were also flat against City in February). I hope he considers bringing in a sports psychologist next season.



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Re: UEFA Cup Final Round Table. Liverpool 1 Sevilla 3
« Reply #29 on: May 22, 2016, 01:08:40 PM »
There's no way I can watch that game. See a defense that hoofs it - a midfield that doesn't control - attacking mids who don't get on it - an isolated striker and come to the conclusion it would all have been so different if we had Gameiro up top rather than Sturridge.

He was the least of our concerns and should be when we look to the future - those sort of numbers are difficult to find.

It's not about a take or confirmation bias. I just think you're wrong - simple as that. So, we'll leave it there.


Fair enough - guess we'll just have to agree to differ.

I would just add however that the whole question of the absolutely pivotal role the mobile 'in yer face' attacking outlet now fulfils in the modern game and how we suffered post Suarez through not having someone to play it has been something I've been banging on about for these past two years.

The lack of it saw off Rodgers and brought us Kloppie - so in that sense perhaps it was a blessing in disguise.

All the time he was out I had believed Sturridge could fill the role. Watching him these past half dozen games or so since his return from injury I'm yet to be convinced that he can and Origi clearly looks a better bet for the team in that role. I'd like to think Kloppie can work something out that harnesses Sturridge's gifts but the in yer face workhorse role up front I feel is not it. 

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Re: UEFA Cup Final Round Table. Liverpool 1 Sevilla 3
« Reply #30 on: May 22, 2016, 01:29:03 PM »
Gameiro was nowhere in the first half though. It's all very well saying you need that sort of striker, but first half he did nothing whereas Sturridge scored his goal, forced a really good save one on one and popped a header across goal that one of his team-mates should have scored.

We gifted them the game in the second half but of all the things we did in the first half, there's no way Sturridge would be criticised. And not just because of the goal, but because he was doing other good things.
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Re: UEFA Cup Final Round Table. Liverpool 1 Sevilla 3
« Reply #31 on: May 22, 2016, 01:31:25 PM »
Anyone know why some lads had what looked like an Aubergine in the crowd in B5?

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Re: UEFA Cup Final Round Table. Liverpool 1 Sevilla 3
« Reply #32 on: May 22, 2016, 01:40:56 PM »
Gameiro was nowhere in the first half though. It's all very well saying you need that sort of striker, but first half he did nothing whereas Sturridge scored his goal, forced a really good save one on one and popped a header across goal that one of his team-mates should have scored.

We gifted them the game in the second half but of all the things we did in the first half, there's no way Sturridge would be criticised. And not just because of the goal, but because he was doing other good things.

Fair points re first half - although Gameiro's overhead attempt wasn't bad and he was never less than a handful.

But let's be clear here - I'm a huge Sturridge fan and whilst it may seem as if I'm criticising him I'm really not. The lad is what he is and he can't be criticised for not being what he isn't. I'm simply saying that watching the game back the contrast between the dynamic of the two players leading their respective attacks and how that impacted on the game especially the second half - seemed pretty stark to me.

Daniel's got parts to his game that make him the rare talent he is. What was evident on Wednesday was that the rare talent he has may well have brought us that fantastic goal but the absence in his game of other more mundane workhorse in yer face attributes and the abundance of those attributes in his Seville counterpart's game became a quite significant and hitherto scarcely referenced factor in how the game ultimately ran away from us.
« Last Edit: May 22, 2016, 01:58:09 PM by Timbo's Goals »

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Re: UEFA Cup Final Round Table. Liverpool 1 Sevilla 3
« Reply #33 on: May 22, 2016, 02:04:01 PM »
Some good analysis in here.

My thoughts were that we started the game full of nerves,we were full of confidence going into the game-maybe a touch of 'we only have to turn up' syndrome-then when the game started we seemed shellshocked that a game was actually on here.
Sevilla started tentatively,we were lucky for that,had they gone for it a la Dortmund/Anfield it could have been another Istanbul comeback.
Sevilla dwelt,the class they shown in the 2nd half showed they paid too much respect to us 1st half.
As the 1st half developed,the hesitant & long ball Sevilla succumbed as our dominance grew,i thought we were much better than Sevilla 1st half & fully deserved a lead that realistically we could have taken a 3 goal lead into the 2nd half.

I aint watched the game again,what i remember of it were what i thought we had 2 stonewall penalties denied-no sour grapes here but i did think the referee was awful. Far too many soft fouls given & he never let the game flow at all.

The defeat was simply down to too many players playing shite,sometime you can scrape thro a game with a few average displays-last week & the 2nd half in particular there were only 2 or 3 who could hold their heads up. Toure was fantastic,you could see his experience shine thro when it mattered,model pro who is great to have in the squad-persona infectious to those around him.

Moreno has taken a lot of stick & rightly so,those of you defending him or contemplating he has a future here..really perplexes me,i'm very rarely brutal with players still on our books but i'd be quite happy not seeing him pull on a red shirt again.
We collapsed..plain & simple,the ball was like a hot potato at times-confidence was shot,belief disappeared & everything we'd seen in the euro games under Klopp building up to this had completely vanished. The lack of movement was appalling,how can you really string 3 passes together if everyone is static?

After their goal straight from the kick off we waited for the 2nd to go in before realising our midfield needed a Lucas/Allen in there-this was costly and we never gained any sustained momentum to worry Sevilla.
I cant see anything positive to take from that game,anything different than what I already knew.

Yep i'm still pissed too,but we have to put this firmly behind us & move on to the next phase of restructure & development.

With the right addidtions this summer our target will probably be set at CL qualification,it doesn't sit well at all with me as we should always be targeting winning the PL-something which under Klopp's guidance is not so unrealistic.

Onwards & upwards redmen.
 

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Re: UEFA Cup Final Round Table. Liverpool 1 Sevilla 3
« Reply #34 on: May 22, 2016, 02:08:03 PM »
The most worrying of all is that the horrible second half collapse actually happened a few times not long ago. Southamton, Newcastle, Sunderland......... The team just lost its sharp and everyone was panicking. I am actually quite disappointed with Klopp that he didn't try to change something earlier, like a few minutes after the first goal conceded. It's quite obvious to me that team wasn't going to play itself out of that black hole. We were beaten everywhere technically and physically and we lost the midfield completely. I believe some changes like bring on Lucas , Henderson or both to replace those soft guys like Moreno, Coutinho, Lalanla or Firminho have to be made. It might not change the overall result but it cannot be as one sided as it was. It was depressing to watch through the whole second half. You may notice that our superior fans also found it hard to raise their voices because the team was dead.

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Re: UEFA Cup Final Round Table. Liverpool 1 Sevilla 3
« Reply #35 on: May 22, 2016, 02:50:03 PM »
1) This losing in final/last hurdle have got to stop soon. For example Leverkusen being called Neverkusen and also Benfica Curse. We don't want it to happen to us.

2) I think it has been said but a midfield of Can/Milner will never work. Klopp is a great manager but he need to realize it. Milner is never a CM. If he wants to keep Milner, keep him as an impact sub or as backup for wide position.

3) How good was Kolo Toure though? It is prove that having experience in backup position never hurts.

4) With only the league and domestic cup to play for next season, I hope this will give Klopp the chance to remove most of the players who do not contribute much to the team. Our squad is too bloated and some players like Skrtel, Lucas, Moreno, Flanagan, Texeira, Stewart, Ibe, Benteke, Bogdan, Lallana, Illori and some others might find the exit door. Whatever it is Klopp need all the help he can get. For example getting Michael Zorc (might not be possible) or that Sevilla genius to assist in transfer.

The result still hurts big time but long term this might help us. We have the best man for the job and now is the time for FSG to make good on their word to make the club the best in England and Europe again.
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Re: UEFA Cup Final Round Table. Liverpool 1 Sevilla 3
« Reply #36 on: May 22, 2016, 03:27:35 PM »
First of all ...I think they did brilliantly to get there, they also re-ignited "the love" at Anfield, the club caught the imagination of Europe once again and they gave us some brilliant nights. All fantastic milestones for the manager, players and supporters. I love Klopp being at Anfield and in the light of the truly momentous events at Liverpool this year losing this final is small beer.

With regards to the game, it did shine the light on some of our less glorious tendencies as a team and squad.


UEFA CUP FINAL 2016  – Liverpool 1 Sevilla 3

It was a wretched first five minutes and I must admit some of my own confidence began to ebb a bit. It’s not that Sevilla showed any quality (they were hoofing); but rather that we seemed unable to impose any pattern on the game. The defence either struggled to recycle the ball quickly or were pressed by Sevilla’s mobile front line into wild clearances.

Thanks for that OP. It is a game I won't ever see again either. What I have quoted above struck me staright away while watching the game. Look at the very first plays. Indecisive hoofs followed by free kicks given away and pressure invited. We looked clueless, indecisive, nervous. It struck me at the time as though we were looking to react to the game rather than take it on ... odd, I felt.

Well it went the way it went.

As to where we are now, well Klopp know has seen his team, in big games (let alone similar flops in league games this season) not really perform in 2 finals as well as inheriting a team which flopped against Chelsea (2014) and didn't show up against Villa in the semi (2015). Something is "wrong" within this squad. I really wonder how many of these players will be starting players come the start of 2017. We having a "losing aspect" to our mentality. It's not that we always collapse, because we don't, but we seem to do it too frequently in big games. It's mentality thing and I think we need more iron in our collective soul.

I don't think this group, as such, would be a winning group next season even if we had won on Wednesday but it would have been wonderful for everyone to have won it. Secondly we would have had a major profile lift and could possibly have had a much easier time in attracting whom we need to really take the next steps.

Now we have a possible 40 game season coming up and really, as it stands, too many players, including ressies already on the books so it is a bit tricky now for Klopp & Co. There are a lot of decisions which now have to be made re players places in the squad.

As for next season I would not be expecting anything right away.
Unfortunately there is a Euro's and South American Copa as well (isn't there ?).
I don't know how much of a pre-season Klopp is gonna get with the players.
Man U, Plastics, Man Oil, Spurs, Arsenal are gonna have the pick of whose available and we will be battling with the rest for the rest.
There is the Sakho situation which probably means we will have to buy yet another Centre Half with funds unboosted by CL participation. Buy and integrate this player.
I don't envy the club and Klopp in this transfer window, not a bit.

The only thing is now he can work comprehensively with the players this season. Last season, from October to May he possibly had 2 weeks only without a mid-week game and endless injuries to boot.

Klopp did really well last season, many of the players really improved and showed their talent. It wasn't their peak abilities that was the problem it was the catastrophic, consistent nature of individual and collective errors and mental fragility in my opinion.. Can that be coached out of these players or does the group need a blood-letting ?

By the way a big thank you to the writers and contributors to this and other similar threads and to the mods here in RAWK. When it's good here it's really good.




Offline leivapool

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Re: UEFA Cup Final Round Table. Liverpool 1 Sevilla 3
« Reply #37 on: May 22, 2016, 03:40:37 PM »
I sadly got a sense of deja vu watching the second half,  deja vu back to the days of Rodgers and his,  'how ever many goals ou score,  we'll score more' tactical approach of loading the top end of the pitch leaving the midfield light.  As soon as Sevilla scored Klopp had a decision to make;  bring on another central midfielder and hold the status quo,  or go for broke.  he chose the latter,  we capitulated,  and I do think some of the blame should be on our manager.  As someone else has already said,  when Rafa was 3 down in Istanbul he brought on a DM,  and the rest is history.  Now clearly,  against Sevilla we were in no way as bad a hole when it was only 1-1,  but the way our midfield 2 were playing,  even a blind man could see further goals were inevitable.  And yet Klopp persisted with his favourite formation,  the 2 man midfield,  which contained  a clearly off the pace Emre,  and we got annihilated.  Sevilla could have scored way more. 

Moreno was culpable for the first goal,  but the way the team was set up led to the others.  We needed to go back to a 3 man midfield (Can,  Lucas and Allen for me)  and get our disruption and pressing game going,  and build from there.  As it was we were over run in midfield and over run up front,  having no platform to build from.  Very depressing to my mind and the lack of tactical nous shown was the first worrying times for me under Klopp.  It's almost like we can out pass and out press weaker teams,  but hit a team with class and the formation is clearly exposed badly.  Chelsea also exposed our midfield 2 the week previous but we got away with it.  Against Sevilla we didn't,  and we clearly need better,  far better central midfielders if Klopp is to persist with the 2 man system.  For me Can isn't going to be good enough to play the role Klopp is asking him to.

Massive credit to Kolo who showed his class repeatedly and showed a spirit too many of our players didn't.  He has fight and heart,  class and talent. Sadly none of the others in red against Sevilla managed to show all 4,  even the ones who have all 4,  and that isn't many of them!
Rossiter absolutely bossed it tonight. Really believe he'll end up playing more games this season than Lucas.


Henderson won't make it here. Sorry but he won't and won't

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Re: UEFA Cup Final Round Table. Liverpool 1 Sevilla 3
« Reply #38 on: May 22, 2016, 05:50:36 PM »
The most worrying part for me is our lack of a strong spine, because simply, some of our players are not of the strong spine variety. We need players who don't get easily rattled and who will fight for every ball and put the effort necessary to win by leaving everything on the pitch.

The impact Anfield had helping carry us to victory against BvB and Villareal cannot be understated. It papered a lot of cracks. It was a beautiful ride.

The gross mismanagement in the transfer market the last few years will take a while to be corrected. Bloated squad with overrated and overpaid high transfer fee players. The people involved in the transfer market should have been fired a year ago (being generous here), the bloody lot of them. Hard to keep people accountable when we have football-clueless remote control ownership and inexperienced people in charge on location. Not a good combination.

IMHO we need more pace and (better) players with a winning mentality and some leadership qualities. Yeah, maybe not many of those around, but those are the players you pay a lot of money for. Wish we'd made a move for a player like Vidal 3 or 4 years ago.

For me, this loss was extremely painful. My only hope is that Klopp will identify and recommend players who fit his style of play and mentality required for it because the TC will not find those traits in their computer programs.

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Re: UEFA Cup Final Round Table. Liverpool 1 Sevilla 3
« Reply #39 on: May 22, 2016, 06:22:49 PM »
Well, there is not much to add to Yorky's brilliant post, thanks for that!!

I would definitely would like to see more of that again next season,not only Klopp improving the football of this club as he started and showed being capable of... but also more posters trying to understand football and having a discussion on that, the football, in detail, and only the football. Yes, the days of RoyHendo are long gone and I have to admit that I miss his contributions as the overall will to discuss football in detail seemed to kind of faded away with every year around here...

There was a trend of putting the blame entirely on the players as the one and only argument and if not them then the commitee, the owners or whoever and for whatever reason the ones responsible for the football first and foremost, the manager, has been kept outside the discussion. Maybe it was consequence of the clever P.R. of Brendan, maybe it was because of Kenny, the untouchable man, or maybe it was simply posters getting lazy as it's much easier to rant on about shallow stereotypes rather then trying to understand what it takes to built a successful team in terms of tactical understanding of a game.

Some still won't believe that this' important, way more than the English press will admit but I do hope RAWK is better than that.  ;)

Bring on next season, personally, I can't wait, although one of my favourite players probably won't make it.

P.S.
...but I also feel their willingness to get on the ball wasn't there either - Firminio less so and Coutihno moreso who disappeared as he has done for the last month.
The passing was not quick enough, the passing into their feet which is substantially important on this level as there is less to no space. Because of that, the passing wasn't happening although they, Coutinho and Firminho, were offering themselves the same way as ever. Can and Milner not famous for releasing the ball quick enough. But maybe that's a Klopp thing ;)
« Last Edit: May 22, 2016, 07:15:09 PM by steveeastend »
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10