Author Topic: Round Table: Watford 3 Liverpool 0 (Read 19666 times)

No offense but this is beyond naive to think football works like that, on such a simplified level. Yes, there were players being the perfect link between manager and the team, changing games on their own while being some sort of this one leader everybody around here thinks would make such a difference on the pitch... but that's so rare, so very rarely happening in football that it makes more sense to rule this one out, reduce leadership to a simple motivation factor of one player or another, especially when looking at this squad. In fact Henderson has so much more to prove before even coming anywhere close to be even worth a motivator on the pitch... has he EVER turned a game around by his performance only? And how many times you would expect a player having to do so before coming to some sort captain honours?

Only one of many questions marks when people discuss this squad and as much as there is truth to what Tony Evans is refering to I do not believe for one minute that the quality of this squad has anything to do with recent results. Yes, there was an outflow of top quality after Rafa happening, for years, with few people pointing their fingers to this but those were pretty much always shut down by the hpye created by singings like Andy Carroll, best header of the ball, Stewart Downing, the player the club was crying out for years or recently James Milner, our savour for center midfield, together with many other questionable signings who only kept some agents happy or whoever made profit from those signings, the football of this club for sure being left unimpressed. But we know that, still I think it has nothing to do with recent results...

In my opinion, all those reasons people are trying to find for recent results are speculation as at this point we got a manager coming from a different country, not knowing the league or the players the way it should be and players having to adopt, which needs more than a couple of weeks only in our particular situation in order to nail results and performances on a regular basis. Klopp is coming from a different football culture, different fixtures, different tactics, different style, different refs, different intensity in training which the players have to get used to. Usually players get injured and look tired in games if the intensity in training is turned up a notch, frankly I reckon it's been two or three, and no way there isn't a dip in freshness and fitness kicking in after a couple of weeks, which is exactly what we are witnessing at the moment.

There isn't more to it than a new manager coming in and finding his way with players adopting to it which has the engine stottering at the beginning, there really isn't, although people are desperately trying to find something else in there. Patience while not writing the season off is all there is for us fans at the moment, I guess there isn't any better news at this point.

Interesting point. Think you could attribute most of our problems against Watford to tiredness, both physically and mentally - failure to pick the right pass, losing out in tackles, failure to make the right run or any run at all....seems more likely to me than that everyone has suddenly turned to shit or was never good enough in the first place. Even lanky's point about the weakness in midfield - fresher players won't get bullied that easily.

Its a worry though that it comes right before the busy Christmas fixtures. We'll recover and get stronger, obviously but it might be too late.

kcbworth · « **Reply #86 on:** December 23, 2015, 01:59:33 am »

Quote from: BCCCause it's Christmas! on December 22, 2015, 02:01:09 pm

As long as I can remember we've always had a top class striker who can turn a game and a keeper who made our goal as impenetrable as Fort Knox. Now we have neither along with a world class player who raises the game of everyone around him.

People would consider Sturridge to be as close to that level as anyone else in the league outside Aguero. Just so happens he's not capable of playing the vast majority of the time

BCCC · « **Reply #87 on:** December 23, 2015, 07:27:08 am »

Quote from: kcbworth on December 23, 2015, 01:59:33 am

People would consider Sturridge to be as close to that level as anyone else in the league outside Aguero. Just so happens he's not capable of playing the vast majority of the time

Who is this Sturridge you speak of?

Gerrard#1 · « **Reply #88 on:** December 23, 2015, 08:07:22 am »

Is this a sign of the competitiveness of the league or how big the mountain Klopp has to climb to get us back to challenging for the CL places and ultimately the league?

We are clearly lacking a main man. Sturridge is a sick note, Ings is gone for the season and Origi is too inconsistent to be depended on at this stage. Benteke doesn't fit with our style of play because we don't have players capable of feeding him crosses outside of Moreno and maybe Clyne. Ibe is the only winger we have in our squad and he looks better playing central. Taking this into account you have to question why Benteke was signed in the first place? It just goes to shows that the quality of the player is just as important as his chemistry with the rest of the team. Firmino isn't clinical and he seems to still be adjusting to the team. He's played with Coutinho before which shows why the two have decent chemistry together.

Our corners and set pieces are abysmal. We must have scored the least goals from set pieces over the last two years. It seems we will nick the odd goal every ten games whilst conceding from them every second game. This is partly because (outside of our CBs) we have no size in the team excluding Benteke.

Too add to the frustration, their goals were completely preventable especially the first two. A schoolboy error from Bogdan and Skrtel failing to play Ighalo offside with the rest of the defence. I think Klopp will most likely sign a defender in the summer as a partnership of Skrtel and Sakho/Lovren clearly isn't the answer. A new goalkeeper is also a must. The amount of goals we concede from goalkeeping mistakes just isn't acceptable at this level.

Klopp has some rebuilding to do in the summer and I expect many players to considered be surplus to requirements next season.

steveeastend · « **Reply #89 on:** December 23, 2015, 10:30:12 am »

Quote from: Robin Redbyrdz on December 22, 2015, 10:43:49 pm

Interesting point. Think you could attribute most of our problems against Watford to tiredness, both physically and mentally - failure to pick the right pass, losing out in tackles, failure to make the right run or any run at all....seems more likely to me than that everyone has suddenly turned to shit or was never good enough in the first place. Even lanky's point about the weakness in midfield - fresher players won't get bullied that easily.

Exatcly!

I would even dare to say that the players won't be recovering from this change in intensity quickly and Klopp will have to realise to adopt the intensity for this season only which again doesn't mean this season to be a write off. Klopp and the players will find a way, I am sure of that, as the majority are top professionals, including the manager. But you only have to look at how injuries got up in numbers, there is no way to look away from that, it's the intensity which causes the muscles to be tired and minor injuries a consequence out of that.

Kevin Keegan once was quoted that it was such a drastic change for him making the switch from british to german football as the emphasis is put so much more on training, pre seaon and regular training session compared to England where it's all about staying fresh through playing every three days.

Maybe it's not that bad but as you wrote, you cannot question the mentality of the majority of the squad, it seemed to me that they were just tired, mentally and physically, not totally shot, just tired, which is normal when a manager switches to an approach having more or less games being some sort of a light recovery session for the players after one week training... well, that's how intense a lot of training in the Bundesliga works... not that I am fan, it's just the way it is.

Just wait for next pre season.. there will be players wanting to leave afterwards..

killer-heels · « **Reply #90 on:** December 23, 2015, 10:35:08 am »

Quote from: steveeastend on December 22, 2015, 07:22:53 pm

No offense but this is beyond naive to think football works like that, on such a simplified level. Yes, there were players being the perfect link between manager and the team, changing games on their own while being some sort of this one leader everybody around here thinks would make such a difference on the pitch... but that's so rare, so very rarely happening in football that it makes more sense to rule this one out, reduce leadership to a simple motivation factor of one player or another, especially when looking at this squad. In fact Henderson has so much more to prove before even coming anywhere close to be even worth a motivator on the pitch... has he EVER turned a game around by his performance only? And how many times you would expect a player having to do so before coming to some sort captain honours?

Only one of many questions marks when people discuss this squad and as much as there is truth to what Tony Evans is refering to I do not believe for one minute that the quality of this squad has anything to do with recent results. Yes, there was an outflow of top quality after Rafa happening, for years, with few people pointing their fingers to this but those were pretty much always shut down by the hpye created by singings like Andy Carroll, best header of the ball, Stewart Downing, the player the club was crying out for years or recently James Milner, our savour for center midfield, together with many other questionable signings who only kept some agents happy or whoever made profit from those signings, the football of this club for sure being left unimpressed. But we know that, still I think it has nothing to do with recent results...

In my opinion, all those reasons people are trying to find for recent results are speculation as at this point we got a manager coming from a different country, not knowing the league or the players the way it should be and players having to adopt, which needs more than a couple of weeks only in our particular situation in order to nail results and performances on a regular basis. Klopp is coming from a different football culture, different fixtures, different tactics, different style, different refs, different intensity in training which the players have to get used to. Usually players get injured and look tired in games if the intensity in training is turned up a notch, frankly I reckon it's been two or three, and no way there isn't a dip in freshness and fitness kicking in after a couple of weeks, which is exactly what we are witnessing at the moment.

There isn't more to it than a new manager coming in and finding his way with players adopting to it which has the engine stottering at the beginning, there really isn't, although people are desperately trying to find something else in there. Patience while not writing the season off is all there is for us fans at the moment, I guess there isn't any better news at this point.

My point was a more general one about how the team adjusts on field rather than a specific question mark against Henderson. At what point if something is not working are we expecting the team to be able to make adjustments? Is this an illustration of the fact that we have far too many young players overall?

steveeastend · « **Reply #91 on:** December 23, 2015, 10:41:07 am »

Quote from: killer_heels on December 23, 2015, 10:35:08 am

My point was a more general one about how the team adjusts on field rather than a specific question mark against Henderson. At what point if something is not working are we expecting the team to be able to make adjustments? Is this an illustration of the fact that we have far too many young players overall?

A team rarely makes adjustments on the pitch, it's a matter of the way of the manager. There are manager who would train three or four "systems"/way of play"/approaches with the team after having the basics fixed, like it was the case with Rafa (f.e.how many hollywood balls did you see from Gerrard under Rafa?) The players would usually do what a manager expects, otherwise those players are out of the team quicker than Old Traffords empties at the end of a Louis van Gaal team at the moment

There are outstanding player personalities, Roy Keane, Matthaus etc. who would be some sort of a second manager on the pitch, looking for others to fulfill their job but those sort of players are not existing in the PL at the moment, nowhere. It's what the manager wants the players to do and Henderson, in this particular case, just as all the others, has been told to express their freedom in attacking player whenever he feels the situation to be right. It says more about Henderson, not being experienced enough to know what's best in a particular game situation, that's all.

So yeah, you could say that it's an expression of a combination of having a lot of unexperienced players around AND a manager who gives players more freedom compared to a manager like Rafa f.e. which doesn't mean that Klopp doesn't expect a lot of basics from the players which they cannot fullfill right now on a regular basis BUT would make a huge difference which explains the difference in results against City and Watford despite having almost an identical team on the pitch. So yeah... we have to wait, simple as that.

smurfinaus · « **Reply #92 on:** December 23, 2015, 11:10:23 am »

Quote from: Gerrard#1 on December 23, 2015, 08:07:22 am

Our corners and set pieces are abysmal. We must have scored the least goals from set pieces over the last two years. It seems we will nick the odd goal every ten games whilst conceding from them every second game. This is partly because (outside of our CBs) we have no size in the team excluding Benteke.

Yeah but this has been a problem for a few years now. Set pieces like free kicks seem to be ok when Stevie or Suarez/Aurelio were taking them, however corners have always been very erratic - even with Stevies skill - first ball almost never gets over the first man at the near post ffs.

Andy @ Allerton! · « **Reply #93 on:** December 23, 2015, 11:48:22 am »

This game was potentially THE BEST game Liverpool Football Club have ever had.

We're at the dawn of a new era, and the most important thing for any new manager is to see any problems, to identify areas that need improvement, to see what players can cut it, which can't, what fight there is and where we need to build.

I'm sure Klopp was inwardly delighted. He saw a lot of what he needed to do and why he was brought in.

I'm very interested to see how he responds to the challenge.

Andy @ Allerton! · « **Reply #94 on:** December 23, 2015, 11:50:14 am »

Quote from: smurfinaus on December 23, 2015, 11:10:23 am

Yeah but this has been a problem for a few years now. Set pieces like free kicks seem to be ok when Stevie or Suarez/Aurelio were taking them, however corners have always been very erratic - even with Stevies skill - first ball almost never gets over the first man at the near post ffs.

Gerrard NEVER had any skills with corners. Worst corner taker ever.

It's just the new ones are nearly as shite as he was**

** Clearly this isn't attainable. In 40 years of watching football I haven't seen a single player cock up as many corners as Gerrard. He was unreal. Einstein would have said he was mad:

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results" - Albert Einstein.

stoa · « **Reply #95 on:** December 23, 2015, 12:07:34 pm »

Quote from: smurfinaus on December 23, 2015, 11:10:23 am

Yeah but this has been a problem for a few years now. Set pieces like free kicks seem to be ok when Stevie or Suarez/Aurelio were taking them, however corners have always been very erratic - even with Stevies skill - first ball almost never gets over the first man at the near post ffs.

To be honest, I don't think the delivery is the (main/only) problem. I think our issue is that too often we don't really have players attacking the cross in any meaningful way. If you look at our corners it doesn't really matter most of the time where the ball is played, we just have too few players around who pose any threat. Too often do we see keepers just catching the ball in the five yard box without any of our players being anywhere close to him. Kyrgiakos wasn't highly rated when he was here, but when he was on the pitch you almost always felt that he could do something dangerous from a corner, because he got stuck in and attacked the ball. We don't have that at the moment in my view. Countless people have been taking corners in recent months and I refuse to believe that they (as professional footballers) aren't capable of properly crossing the ball.

steveeastend · « **Reply #96 on:** December 23, 2015, 12:44:44 pm »

Quote from: Festive User Name @ Allerton on December 23, 2015, 11:50:14 am

Gerrard NEVER had any skills with corners. Worst corner taker ever.

It's just the new ones are nearly as shite as he was**

** Clearly this isn't attainable. In 40 years of watching football I haven't seen a single player cock up as many corners as Gerrard. He was unreal. Einstein would have said he was mad:

"Insanity: doing the same thing over and over again and expecting different results" - Albert Einstein.

I only know one player beimg particulary good with corners nowadays, compared to app 20 years ago which has lot to do with the constant changing of the ball towards more light and plastic....it shouldnt be used as an excuse but for sure it plays a big role....its way more difficult to combine spin and hit hard compared to the past,

Andy @ Allerton! · « **Reply #97 on:** December 23, 2015, 12:52:46 pm »

Quote from: steveeastend on December 23, 2015, 12:44:44 pm

I only know one player beimg particulary good with corners nowadays, compared to app 20 years ago which has lot to do with the constant changing of the ball towards more light and plastic....it shouldnt be used as an excuse but for sure it plays a big role....its way more difficult to combine spin and hit hard compared to the past,

You're probably got a very good point there mate. The extra weight would mean that the defenders even if they got something on it may have been unable to stop the ball and obviously gravity plays a big part as well.

Millie · « **Reply #98 on:** December 23, 2015, 03:17:54 pm »

Quote from: Festive User Name @ Allerton on December 23, 2015, 12:52:46 pm

You're probably got a very good point there mate. The extra weight would mean that the defenders even if they got something on it may have been unable to stop the ball and obviously gravity plays a big part as well.

We have been shite at corners for as long as I can remember

steveeastend · « **Reply #99 on:** December 23, 2015, 04:55:02 pm »

Quote from: Festive User Name @ Allerton on December 23, 2015, 12:52:46 pm

You're probably got a very good point there mate. The extra weight would mean that the defenders even if they got something on it may have been unable to stop the ball and obviously gravity plays a big part as well.

Yeah, with a ball nowadays it's either with spin, then it's only possible to hit it soft, if trying hard with the side of the foot it's normally impossible or very hard to find control, they end up either too wide or too low..

If hit hard with the instep doesn't make sense nowadays anyway as the ball would flutter and end up uncontrollable with is good when taking a free kick but not for corners.. worth a try though as it would confuse defenders to no end..

There is only one way to have decent control AND some sort of power and this would be when hitting it with the inside-instep... I rarely see players with that technique nowadays though..

Andy @ Allerton! · « **Reply #100 on:** December 23, 2015, 08:58:12 pm »

Quote from: I'm Festively Well Tagged on December 23, 2015, 03:17:54 pm

We have been shite at corners for as long as I can remember

Not this shite.

stoj · « **Reply #101 on:** December 24, 2015, 10:13:13 am »

Quote from: Festive User Name @ Allerton on December 23, 2015, 11:48:22 am

This game was potentially THE BEST game Liverpool Football Club have ever had.

We're at the dawn of a new era, and the most important thing for any new manager is to see any problems, to identify areas that need improvement, to see what players can cut it, which can't, what fight there is and where we need to build.

I'm sure Klopp was inwardly delighted. He saw a lot of what he needed to do and why he was brought in.

I'm very interested to see how he responds to the challenge.

Agree with this. Whilst i was dissapointed (like everyone else) with the result and performance, im sure alot was learnt about this current group of players.

Interesting times and our expectations must be kept in check no matter how frustrating it gets this season.

Merry Christmas all

mickeydocs · « **Reply #102 on:** December 24, 2015, 11:37:57 am »

Quote from: BCCCause it's Christmas! on December 21, 2015, 09:12:24 pm

It's no coincidence that the teams with the best players win the most in the long run. We are witnessing the steady corrosion of our once great football club where mediocrity is now the accepted norm.
Corrosion is difficult to spot, it eats away largely unseen or ignored because it doesn't look as bad on the surface yet below it is busy eating away at the fabric. Without major investment in the footballing side of the club we'll be resigned to singing about our history.

We have not accepted mediocrity. We have hired Jurgen Klopp. One of the top names in Football management in the world. Chelsea, United, Arsenal, City would all consider hiring him.
He has come in mid-season and is trying to understand his squad. Trying to figure out who he can build the team around, and of course those that are not fit to wear the shirt and represent this great club. I am pretty sure Herr Klopp can spot that we are too often bullied by physical teams as I am entirely certain that he knows we need a keeper that commands respect.
We are all impatient as we feel that there is a league there to be won. However I would prefer if our manager takes his time and assesses the league, our opponents, and then put his plans in place for league domination.

leivapool · « **Reply #103 on:** December 24, 2015, 07:44:35 pm »

One thing keeps bothering me about this game and it's why put Kolo on the bench if when a CB gets injured a centre mid gets dropped back to fill in. What's the point of Kolo being on the bench at all??

Chakan · « **Reply #104 on:** December 24, 2015, 07:47:08 pm »

Quote from: leivapool on December 24, 2015, 07:44:35 pm

One thing keeps bothering me about this game and it's why put Kolo on the bench if when a CB gets injured a centre mid gets dropped back to fill in. What's the point of Kolo being on the bench at all??

He wanted to bring Origi on , Skrtel was injured so came off , so he used that sub to get Origi on, otherwise he would have had to make 2 subs.

leivapool · « **Reply #105 on:** December 24, 2015, 10:02:22 pm »

Quote from: Happy cHanukkahn on December 24, 2015, 07:47:08 pm

He wanted to bring Origi on , Skrtel was injured so came off , so he used that sub to get Origi on, otherwise he would have had to make 2 subs.

Yes but why put Kolo on the bench at all if he sees Lucas/Can as the CB cover? Unless it's for morale and experience in the changies reasons :/

BCCC · « **Reply #106 on:** December 24, 2015, 10:19:58 pm »

Quote from: mickeydocs on December 24, 2015, 11:37:57 am

We have not accepted mediocrity. We have hired Jurgen Klopp. One of the top names in Football management in the world. Chelsea, United, Arsenal, City would all consider hiring him.
He has come in mid-season and is trying to understand his squad. Trying to figure out who he can build the team around, and of course those that are not fit to wear the shirt and represent this great club. I am pretty sure Herr Klopp can spot that we are too often bullied by physical teams as I am entirely certain that he knows we need a keeper that commands respect.
We are all impatient as we feel that there is a league there to be won. However I would prefer if our manager takes his time and assesses the league, our opponents, and then put his plans in place for league domination.

Not quoted it all there have ya cause if you did your post wouldn't make sense. Carved it up like a tabloid journo to fit your own agenda.

steveeastend · « **Reply #107 on:** December 25, 2015, 10:46:10 am »

Quote from: leivapool on December 24, 2015, 10:02:22 pm

Yes but why put Kolo on the bench at all if he sees Lucas/Can as the CB cover? Unless it's for morale and experience in the changies reasons :/

As it looks he sees Kolo only for brining on for the last minutes of a game as an additional defender then.

In case we would have been one up with two minutes to go he would have brought him in.

stoa · « **Reply #108 on:** December 25, 2015, 09:31:33 pm »

Quote from: steveeastend on December 25, 2015, 10:46:10 am

As it looks he sees Kolo only for brining on for the last minutes of a game as an additional defender then.

In case we would have been one up with two minutes to go he would have brought him in.

Not necessarily. If we had been 1-0 up at the time of Skrtel's injury, I have no doubt that Kolo would have been brought on. The change was not simply about replacing Skrtel, it was about changing the way we're playing...