Topic: Round Table: Watford 3 Liverpool 0

[Corkboy]

One month ago today, the following team with the following manager crushed Man City 4 1 away.

Klopp

Mignolet Clyne Skrtel Lovren Moreno Milner Lucas Can Lallana Firmino Coutinho

Yesterday, the following team with the following manager lost 3 0 away to Watford.

Klopp

Bogdan Clyne Skrtel Sakho Moreno Henderson Lucas Can Lallana Firmino Coutinho

Here are some selected quotes from the regular post match thread.

SHIT PLAYERS!

Half the players need binning.

We need such a clear out.

Awful awful players we have.

We need 2 new centre halves and more - no quality or class in the middle of the park either.

I'll be happy to see the back of most of these players.

We are a poor team.

Total shite across the team, and sadly, we need another 'clear out' of players.

These are not Liverpool players but Southampton, Villa, Lille, Sunderland, Hoffenheim, Bolton players in a Liverpool shirt.

We have been a little uneven since the new manager came in but the raw materials are quite obviously there. In addition, this league has become very strange this season, with "small" teams like Watford, Leicester and Palace doing extremely well, while "big" clubs like Chelsea are underperforming.

Give the players and the manager a chance. Let's see where are at the end of the season. Or, y'know, we could behave like Chelsea fans, or Mancs, and boo and jeer and call for heads to roll, like the classless fucks they are.

[Gnurglan]

The performance vs Watford was one of the worst I can remember. We looked weak everywhere on the pitch. We couldn't pass the ball, we couldn't keep hold of it (not just thinking of Bogdan). The normally reliable Sakho looked like a bad combo of Djimi Traore and Dejan Lovren. Not that he was alone. The term shadow striker can be used for our ones, with the emphasis being on shadow. It was dreadful all around.

That doesn't mean we have a bad group of players. We have seen evidence of the opposite. But there are clear problem areas within this group. Our lows are just too low. Norwich, Newcastle, West Ham, Watford, Crystal Palace,... if we want to go places, we need to beat those sides.

I believe Klopp will sort things. He'll get there, and he needs time. We all know that. But players should be alert. We can't let our performance levels slip like vs Watford too many times. Klopp is here to build a successful side and I'm sure he already has a fairly good view of which players he wants to keep. Those who can't meet the standards will soon be gone. Anyone can have a bad game or two, but when we look so weak, mentally, few players should feel safe long term. It shouldn't come as a big surprise to me. I've previously said that I think we can expect around ten players to leave before the next season begins. But it's disappointing for me to see that even our core players can drop so much in their performance levels from one game to another.

Watford are newly promoted. They have a new manager too. Let be he's been there a couple of months longer. They still shouldn't beat us with such ease. Never. Not even if we had been a man down from the first minute, should we go there and lose 3-0. At least not if we had real character as a team. We are too soft. It's too easy to score against us. And where are our leading, attacking players? Coutinho, Lallana, Firmino, Benteke, Origi? Let's remember that players like Vardy, Mahrez and Ighalo make it work in respective teams. Our ones, not even counting Markovic, Sturridge and Ings, cost close to 100M and never looked a threat. Vs a newly promoted side.

We need to learn from this game and find a way to improve. Quickly.

[John C]

RT is up for some good discussion

[killer-heels]

Watford played this superbly. How much they planned for it or how much we just suited their game i dont know but whatever happened we fell right into their hands.

People have mentioned that they play narrow and you can see why and maybe thats why we tried to do the overlap thing a lot. They bypassed our pressing in a way lots of teams have done which is go long and rely on the strong Deeney and Ighalo to win it, which they did many times. Once that second ball dropped they pounced.

On the flip side when we had it they knew we wanted to pass it so they pressed and it was a case of "if you want to play short passing on this pitch then go right ahead". We had no one to put in the graft, stretch the play and work the channels and as such the game became compressed in a small area of the pitch and they battled the shit out of us.

Deeney and Ighalo gave a brilliant performance of forward play for a team at that level. Constantly harrassing, strong and always looking for each other with one playing deep and the other working the channels. They also showed bags of smarts by targetting Sakho, knowing they could get at him and taking it in turns to rough the shit out of him.

I dont agree Corkboy with the belief in this side. Yes they have put in some good performances, but havent West Ham done that as well? Is their true level as well a team that can beat many good sides away from home like City, Arsenal and us or is it of an ordinary side?

For me the side is lacking and it might just be a case of this squad just being part of too many beatings over the past 18 months. Most of these players are not new players at all.

[Trim0582]

It was a bad day. Bogdan had a hard game but it's hard for reserve keepers. Hell even Cech was shady in his first few games for Arsenal because of not playing.
We continue to concede goals far cheaper than our opposition and it has to stop but we knew we would be inconsistent, it's come in spells rather than game by game.

I'm not sure where such an abject lack of fight came from, it didn't seem like confidence we didn't even look bothered enough to lose confidence more odd than troubling to me, as it seemed almost freakish.

Fans are a bipolar bunch but it was a bad game, I thought skrtel had showed improvement under klopp and Lucas made a fool of Yaya a few weeks back. Now i am told they are useless. I don't know why but we don't like physical teams as we don't like being pressed. I hope the round table will help me understand why.

[andy07]

We are not a poor team but we are a team with a poor attitude.  In our glory days we had plenty of scappy 1-0 and 2-1 wins against mid and lower league teams that set out to disrupt our style with a physical approach.  Those Liverpool teams knew how to mix it, they also respected the opposition and knew that anything less than a committed approach would result in failure.    Too many were not up for it yesterday, maybe some Rugby 7s practice would help in training.

[redbyrdz]

Have out bad performances coincided with Henderson being back? Obviously that is very unfair..... however, while he looked 'good' individually yesterday, I thought he was disrupting our game more than helping it. Those gerradesque crosses to switch the ball - while the cross itself was always good, and the receiving player usually did well, the rest of our team weren't prepared for the switch, and we ended up losing the ball. When you have Suarez or a fit Sturridge at the end of such a ball, players who can score without help, you can do that....but our setup with Coutinho and Firmino is about quick passing and runners, and suddenly plunging the ball into another area of the pitch doesn't match that.

In general we just didn't seem able to hang on to the ball at all - losing out in tackles, and misplacing passes, mistimed runs... nothing worked. A sign of a team that hasn't found itself? Why did it seem to work a few games ago?

[sat]

I was at the game yesterday and we were woeful, the only player who came out of it with any positives was Hendo though he should have buried that chance in the second half. We were just bullied off the ball in the middle of the park and just couldn't make a few passes to our players.
Emre Can was awful he couldn't pass the ball for some reason and was just slowing everything down and going backwards when there were players ahead of him. I think he needs some time on th bench...
Hopefully we will show some guts against the league leaders on Boxing Day, we can't play any worst than yesterday.

[Les Willis]

I don't usually watch the match in the pub, but I fancied it for a change, so went to my usual boozer only to be told that they weren't showing it. By the time, I'd found a pub showing the footy we were 15 mins in and one goal down. We were 2-0 down shortly afterwards. After half time, I went to a different pub, but the game just didn't improve. I think most of the people in that pub were probably Man U fans - at least at the moment they aren't up for gloating, more the "I know how you're feeling"  with a compassionate shake of the head and knowing look as we went 3-0 down... I had 5 pints by the time we'd finished..

[Franck Le Poof]

Give the players and the manager a chance. Let's see where are at the end of the season. Or, y'know, we could behave like Chelsea fans, or Mancs, and boo and jeer and call for heads to roll, like the classless fucks they are.

Anybody who isn't prepared to give this manager time is an utterly clueless knobhead not worth our time. However, for the sake of discussion:

Aside from the hyperbole associated with the release of frustration immediately post-match - at what point do we look at some of the players in this squad and genuinely doubt their ability to perform consistently at the level required for this football club? While I do not agree with the vitriol leveled at some of the players there were, behind that anger, valid criticisms, like buying mid-table players who bring with them a mid-table mentality. Does it have merit? Is it worth discussing?

I'm not saying don't support them; that's what we do, we support our players. But in our spare time online here it is reasonable to discuss where we go from here. Where are our problems?

After the match I agreed wholly with the answer: mentality. How long has it been easy to bully us? How many concentration and positional lapses do we forgive from Skrtel (or, to a lesser extent, Moreno) before we say these are the people that have to go? How many times do our lads have to be on the receiving end of a shithouse tackle before we behave nastily and get in the referee's face? How long have individuals in our team been all too willing to make the requisite effort in a big match and fall woefully short against (perceived) weaker opposition?

They're recurring issues that aren't as easily solved as system & tactics. We have had a mentally fragile squad lacking in leaders for some time and it shines in matches like the one yesterday.

[BCCC]

It's no coincidence that the teams with the best players win the most in the long run. We are witnessing the steady corrosion of our once great football club where mediocrity is now the accepted norm. You can now see the size of the task, it was reflected in Jurgen Klopp's eyes as he gazed over an abject performance from an abject group of players against an average team. He also knows the size of the task and although he will probably wring more out of this group of players in terms of performance and consistency he probably recognises that even then the job may well be too big.

Playing for the badge, the shirt, is now unheard of. They play for the wages, wages that always boost their account regardless of the quality and consistency you'd like to think earns those rewards. Yesterday you witnessed a classic 'can't be arsed' performance. No effort, no fight, no quality and probably worst of the lot no caring or pride. Watford proved that if you can perm any three from four on that list you are in with a shout. Forget the goalkeeping errors and defensive mistakes because the problems are far deeper than that stretching as deep as the terraces and the boardroom.

Corrosion is difficult to spot, it eats away largely unseen or ignored because it doesn't look as bad on the surface yet below it is busy eating away at the fabric. Without major investment in the footballing side of the club we'll be resigned to singing about our history.

[na fir dearg]

Wasnt too surprised with yesterday, its the way this team are at the moment. No need to talk about tactics when your not up for the game the same way Watford were

This team plays well when they are given space and the other team stands off them and lets them play (see man city game)

When its put up to them they dont want to know, the only exception to that really was the WBA game when they came back.

The players we have are nice players but nice isnt enough. We will continue to win the odd game we arent expected to win but will lose some as well

its kind of easy to play against us - just get in about us with pressure or let us have the ball and hit us on the counterattack, all the while with an excellent chance of scoring against us from a set-piece

Deeney absolutely bullied Skrtel, you could tell Skrtel was happy to get off the pitch. If you watch Skrtel before he gets injured, a ball is played in high towards Deeney  -Skrtel watches Deeney the whole time, never looks at the ball hardly

I understand the much talked about apathy at Anfield after watching that yesterday, some players simply dont give anywhere near enough effort for the shirt - they should be fucking privileged to play for Liverpool - instead it seems theyre more worried about getting their hair disturbed

Its gonna take a couple of transfer windows to sort this out - thank fuck we have Klopp, one of the few shining lights. Its difficult for him, what can he do when the players arent giving 100%

p.s. wish we had more scousers in the team - they might actually bust themselves and give a fuck

(apologies for the negativity  )

[stockdam]

Have we a poor team full of poor players? Well no we don't....the Chelsea, City and Southampton games show that we don't.

However, time and time again we fail to perform against the sides who sit back and defend but are good at the counter-attack. Do Watford, WBA, West Ham and Crystal have a better first team; no they don't. At times we need to get the foot in and play a different game. We had 65% or so of possession and yet we had about 3 shots on target.......probably one less or so than Watford.

When we are the "underdogs" we turn up. When everyone thinks we may win then we roll over. That to me says much more about attitude than ability. We have good players who just don't appear to like a scrap.

We also make far too many basic mistakes and give away soft goals. We struggle to score and then we give the other side soft goals from free kicks or corners.

We'll see the same team playing great football but not against teams that want to battle.

There's nothing wrong with the players technically as they should be beating Newcastle, WBA and Watford. Instead of 9 points we got 1. Somebody needs to offer some of the team the door unless they learn to concentrate and to battle hard for each other. We got another bloody nose and we'll see who is up for competing against the smaller clubs.

[skerriesred]

I was looking forward to this one thinking that a week without a game would have given the team a chance to work on tactics and not just fitness.

Our drive was the main disappointment for me. Why do we seem to let other teams get to dictate the pace of the game?

Felt sorry for Bogdan, a really difficult start and his faith in Skrtel clearing for the second was as misplaced as everyone else's.
Can was so frustrating, the potential is there but the inconsistency is a surprise. His injury simulation is in Ashley Young territory. He needs to cut it out.

I have faith in Klopp turning it around but I am not so sure we will see it this year.

The January window will be interesting and if we were to squeeze a result out of Leicester you never know what might happen.

Merry Christmas everyone.

[foreverred1983]

Only a couple of points stood out for me yesterday

The pitch didnt suit a passing game, twas bobbly as fuck. Suits Watford who put it up straight to Deeney and Ighalo.

Benteke might have been the better option yesterday with a more direct game being employed.

Saying that the team was awful. We are going to take some serious hits on the fees paid out for some of these players when they are inevitably moved on. The one bright light is that Klopp and his team have a good record of bringing in players that dont cost an arm and a leg. He might need to weave his magic in a number of departments.

The team has too many of the same type of player especially in midfield. There is no pace to speak of and little creativity but plenty of players who can recycle possession but not actually do anything with the ball to make that possession count.

Its going to be a long season. Again. But im not depressed, im excited to see who Klopp brings in and how he moulds the team going forward once we have a squad of his making. 

[DyingAtheist]

We were all too optimistic about this year in all likelihood. Klopp's an exceptional manager but he's not a miracle worker - he's not going to turn us around in a handful of weeks, he needs time to bring in his own players and to craft the team.

That said.

We're still only 5 points off the Top 4.

[FlashingBlade]

I think the famous poet and football pundit Henry Wadsworth Longfellow summed up the current situation at Liverpool aptly in a poem about a little girl

When she was good 
She was very, very good,         
..  And when she was bad she was horrid.

Spot on Henry!

[Another Red]

In games like this, when things aren't going well, we need leaders & players who can make a difference in the final third. Too often this season (like last season) we've looked blunt in attack. Not one of our attackers is scoring regularly. We're tied for 13th in terms of goals scored.

Surely he's made some errors in his team selection for this particular pitch. It looked bloody awful. Hopefully Klopp will learn a thing or two from this game. Watford are a team in top form, credit to them. I wasn't surprised that we lost but I was by the margin of the loss.

To all the folks saying "the players aren't good enough" or "we need a clear out" or "Jurgen Klopp is the one true god", just remember that our manager is new to the job & league, and he will inevitably make mistakes. Rafa's first season in the league was one of his worst of the six so let's just ease up on the whole "our divine manager is immune from criticism" attitude, accept that he will make some mistakes but not be overly critical when he does and continue to support both the manager & players equally.

[redintweed]

It's no coincidence that the teams with the best players win the most in the long run. We are witnessing the steady corrosion of our once great football club where mediocrity is now the accepted norm. You can now see the size of the task, it was reflected in Jurgen Klopp's eyes as he gazed over an abject performance from an abject group of players against an average team. He also knows the size of the task and although he will probably wring more out of this group of players in terms of performance and consistency he probably recognises that even then the job may well be too big.

Playing for the badge, the shirt, is now unheard of. They play for the wages, wages that always boost their account regardless of the quality and consistency you'd like to think earns those rewards. Yesterday you witnessed a classic 'can't be arsed' performance. No effort, no fight, no quality and probably worst of the lot no caring or pride. Watford proved that if you can perm any three from four on that list you are in with a shout. Forget the goalkeeping errors and defensive mistakes because the problems are far deeper than that stretching as deep as the terraces and the boardroom.

Corrosion is difficult to spot, it eats away largely unseen or ignored because it doesn't look as bad on the surface yet below it is busy eating away at the fabric. Without major investment in the footballing side of the club we'll be resigned to singing about our history.

And therein lies the problem with modern footballers. If things don't go their way, the dummy comes out and they are happy to sit on the bench or run around the field in a trance and collect their pay. Look at Enrique, a perfect example. He was told he wouldn't play yet stayed to collect his big paycheck. Playing for the badge is finished. Yes you will get the odd local lad who gives a fuck as it's his childhood team, but that is becoming a rarity nowadays.

I am an old centre half and every time I saw Liverpool players shirking a tackle I cringed. Lallana, Firmino, Moreno and Coutinho were the biggest offenders and quite frankly they do it week in, week out. It's embarrassing. They did it numourous times and it has cost us goals many times in the last couple of seasons. Teams like Watford, West Brom etc see this and know they are in with a chance if they play physically. It's one thing to be technically gifted, but we are getting outmuscled on a regular basis by the yard dog teams. While I think he lacks the skill of some of the continental players, you'll never see Flanagan pull out of a tackle. What he lacks in skill he more than makes up for in heart. That's what was needed against Watford. All game we were second to the ball. Even Skrtel, who normally never shirks a tackle, looked like he didn't want to clash with the two Watford centre forwards. Lucas and Can normally have a crack but even they were off colour this time around.

Speaking of Can, I do love his passion and the way he drives forward with the ball, but he needs to do something with it. A lot of the time when he has a dribble he runs into a blind alley and away from any support. It's infuriating and while he is still young and has time to be coached, it needs to be sorted out pronto.

Even after the early goal we were very timid. There was very little fight at all. It really just looked like we weren't at the races. Then when the second went in, we were done. At the start of the second half we perked up for a while but when we didn't score in the first 15 minutes, the heads did seem to drop a bit. Yes some players were ordinary at best and everybody knows who they are. What has happened to the pressing? Watford pressed us hard but we didn't return the favour and they dominated the midfield. I guess the story will be - how do they react after that. If Jurgen didn't give them all a few home truths after that I'd be very surprised.

The job ahead of Jurgen is massive. I honestly think he knew that coming in and he'll already know who he needs to move on and bring in. He must be pulling his hair out though with how inconsistent we are. I've read in many threads about how unbalanced our squad is and I agree. I still can't for the life of me figure out why we bought a target man centre forward for 30 million plus, yet we have no one who is any good at crossing the ball into him. When Sturridge (if ever) gets fit we will look very different in attack. Coutinho really needs him. It's like they are a double act. Origi seems to be learning fast but doesn't have any chemistry with wee Phil yet. Phil and Daniel seem to be on the same wavelength and it's sorely missed.

There are a few that are on life support as Liverpool players if they don't pull their fingers out. Jurgen was ruthless at Dortmund and was not afraid to get rid of big name or big money players. Hopefully he isn't afraid to do it here either. When the team is his team, I think we will see a team that plays for the manager and the shirt. Until then, expect the unexpected.

[Mutton Geoff]

Bad start the whole team's performance was flat, we got what we deserved on that performance but let's hope History repeats itself and it is another watershed moment at Watford with a lot of success to follow.

I would not single out any player yesterday they collectively stank the place out. 

Have to add Watford have had a lot of decent results this season and there are no easy teams in the prem anymore, so all our fans or players for that matter who looked at that game thinking the opposition were shit and would just roll over for us are totally deluded.

[Alonso_The_Assassin]

Simply put, the performance was dire. It was as if the team didn't want to get off the bus and that’s the alarming thing. Whomever the manager maybe, that’s the unacceptable part of the defeat. Jurgen Klopp is smart enough to realise this and will address these issues in due course. Due course, however is not tomorrow. Defeats will occur again this season, of that there is no doubt. I just hope they don’t unravel the way they did yesterday, because quite simply, it was unacceptable for this club and some of the players would do awfully well to remember that.

As I suggested in the Klopp thread yesterday - this team has certainly got the ability to give the top four a real shake. However, ability only gets you so far in this league. There are other facets which comprise of the collective mentality, none more so than desire and across the board we lack it. We clearly don’t have the hunger and desire on a consistent basis.  Certain players only seem arsed to rise on the big stage, against the big teams, which boils down to what BBCcase has highlighted above; the modern day footballer and his priorities, which have changed drastically over the last ten years. It’s the ‘read-your-own-hype mentality’. Well, paraphrasing what Morrissey once said. “if you read your good press, then you have to read the bass press, too.”

The upside to this is that no other team is granted immunity to this shift in mentality of the modern day footballer. It’s a level playing field and from there it comes down to a manger conveying his principles to the point where his players unequivocally support his ideologies.

I don't mind getting pasted by teams. That's sport. You take the good with the bad and yesterday, it was bad. Watford were great value for their win and you know what? Good luck to ‘em. But when your team doesn't seem arsed about it, that's alarming and as it stands there's certain players in this squad don't possess the traits to bring success to this club. Resolve. We lack it. Mind you, Klopp knows this all too well and while the result was upsetting it’s certainly not the end of the world. I am a firm believer that sometimes you have to go backwards to go forwards. All this bullshit about Klopp’s honeymoon period being over. It’s as if the masses are already penning the first drafts of his obituary. Fuck off! The man should have five years with this club. He is absolutely and unequivocally the right man for the job. This will take as long as it takes. I know it gets old but, fuck it.  Jurgen Klopp is the manager for Liverpool Football Club. I still can’t believe it!

He's a very clever man and has clever people in and around him, because, well, that's what clever people do. They surround themselves with like minded folk and Klopp has that in big Pete and Željko. They’ll know the players willing to run through brick walls for them. For us! He’ll also know the players who don’t fancy an afternoon kicking in pissing rain and on cabbage patch pitches. This mentality will no longer be tolerated and the increased training sessions will quickly illustrate to the coaching staff those who are willing and those who aren’t. “I don’t really believe days off,” said Klopp, with regards to the extra training sessions. Good! That’s exactly the attitude which has been missing from our club since Rafa was in charge.

Give the man two or three transfer windows to get his players in. Believe you me, I know it’s tough seeing the teams above us throwing away points as if they’re going out of fashion, but there are good times ahead. We just have to stay patient and wait it out.

[Gifted Right Foot]

Quique Sánchez Flores is a beautiful man.  Fair play Watford. 

Klopp will have this club matching his ambition soon enough. 

Merry Christmas.  Enjoy it. 

[jambutty]

Replace Skrtel, Lucas and Milner and we've got the youngest experienced side in the Prem.

I'm quite enthusiastic about our strong, young, swift British core with just enuf Brazilians, a Teuton or 2 and some Balkaneers to mature together and start playing some good, hardarse (Scouse) footy for a good while.  Klopp style.

We've also lost 2 captains in 2 years.  We're waiting for the next one to rise to the occasion and take this team forward.

Try to enjoy the ride, crybabies.

[surfer. Fuck you generator.]

Some decent posts, especially from BCCC and killer.

At this point in time of Klopp's career here, Watford knew exactly how to play us, which players to target (a Sakho returning from injury, though Skrtel got his fair share), aided by their pitch. I honestly believe we could have given 200 percent out there and still lost, mainly because we did not know how to progress with the ball. Effort not channelled by accurate direction is pointless.

That is understandable seeing that you need a proper pre season to work in the coach's preferred movements, both the aerial game and the short passing patterns, time for him to fully study the vagaries of this league and its teams. No blame on Klopp, it is what is it at this point. There is no 'narrative' or story with the manager for me, if he's good enough, and Klopp's pedigree and some of the things we've shown defensively indicate that, he gets a good 3 years to put in place his ideas, get in his players, then we'll see how it goes, right now it's a lot of pointless hand-wringing.

Players like Coutinho and Firmino will shirk tackles, their profile of player has always done that as far as I can remember. A Suarez is few and far between. They need to balance that by breaking teams down with skill, neither of them could do that because we couldn't get the ball enough to them, there was little composure in our build-up, partly due to Watford's aggression and pressing (in bursts, but obvious in the first half) and our lack of fluency with our passing patterns.

Until Klopp's had the time with his squad (for the love of the next season, bunker them in somewhere for a month and let him train rather than another season destroying jaunt across the world; at this point, having done so little of note it's getting cringeworthy), we will see games where, against teams who want to keep the ball in their third, and in midfield, to build - the likes of City, Utd (van gaal), Southampton - our pressing game will actually have the time to get going, we will look good. Against teams that tactically set-up to nullify us by going direct quickly, the onus shifts to our possession game. That's lacking, it will cost us. That's not getting sorted mid season, and not with the current midfielders. Bunker in, understand why the bad's happening, recognise and enjoy the good things, then we'll see.

[surfer. Fuck you generator.]

And Sanchez Flores is indeed a beautiful man!

[Skidder.]

Couldn't look past Watford if I'm honest... Flores et al should be given the praise they deserve - they got it spot on. Their manager and coaches have got then playing a very effective 4-4-2 formation that is hard to break down. It is a formation that has thwarted us as the best of times and I just cannot see a way forward for some of our defenders if they play like they did at Watford. Sakho, as good as he can be, looked as if he was practicing his Ju-Jitsu, Lucas did a journeyman job, but I praise Klopp for his braveness in utilising him there.

It was a painful game to watch, but there have been so many journeyman teams thrashing 'big clubs' of late that it is telling that Financial Fair Play may be having an effect.

Overall, what can be said that hasn't already been said? Bogdan burnt my head out, because for years, I used to wind my cousin up about Paul Scholes being Hans Klopek from The Burbs - as soon as I saw how Bogdan was weak on his feet, I imagined my cousin sending me that scene that I always used to wind him up about in The Burbs. Paul Scholes in rain was like watching Hans Klopek and Mr. Rumsfeld go ass over tit in the final scene. How Ironic now that over a decade on, we now have Hans Klopek on our books and he is now going ass over tit in the rain (was it raining?) - anyhow, funny how footy can do that.

We need January like a pork pie needs a pig - Klopp alluded to us not doing much, but we really need to get someone in better than Bodgan, at the least. Not only that, we need someone to give Migs a bit of a kick up the ass too. Watching Bogdan, I wondered how Valdes would have done had we got him.

Whatever the weather - we need to foster some spark/savvy against the lower teams in the league. They just shore up and play us on the counter/LB and punish us when we least expect it. It is at times like this when you miss Benitez - regardless of my current allegiances, Benitez in his prime, set us up in a similar way and seemed to know what to do to counter a lot of these errors that we are currently experiencing. Whether that was due to the players or him overall is still down to question, it is clear to see how much we miss Gerrard's/Carragher's presence/leadership on the pitch and I wonder who will lead our team in a Klopp era.

I can't help but feel that now we need a keeper who is going to garner confidence in the team - we really need to get a veteran keeper who can do a Van Der Sar for us. Van Der Sar picked United up at a time when they were in Keeper crisis and what I took from this game is that we have a crisis on our hands if we have an extended period without Migs. I don't know who is available and I'm not going to ponder who could do such a job, but some may merit Bogdan for his aerial abilities and I do too - but any keeper worth his salt would have been all over that like a tramp on a tenner.

Anyhow - we move forward/on.

[Caligula?]

Have we a poor team full of poor players? Well no we don't....the Chelsea, City and Southampton games show that we don't.

However, time and time again we fail to perform against the sides who sit back and defend but are good at the counter-attack. Do Watford, WBA, West Ham and Crystal have a better first team; no they don't. At times we need to get the foot in and play a different game. We had 65% or so of possession and yet we had about 3 shots on target.......probably one less or so than Watford.

When we are the "underdogs" we turn up. When everyone thinks we may win then we roll over. That to me says much more about attitude than ability. We have good players who just don't appear to like a scrap.

We also make far too many basic mistakes and give away soft goals. We struggle to score and then we give the other side soft goals from free kicks or corners.

We'll see the same team playing great football but not against teams that want to battle.

There's nothing wrong with the players technically as they should be beating Newcastle, WBA and Watford. Instead of 9 points we got 1. Somebody needs to offer some of the team the door unless they learn to concentrate and to battle hard for each other. We got another bloody nose and we'll see who is up for competing against the smaller clubs.

I'd argue that we don't have a squad of poor players. We have a squad of above average players and with each passing week, I'm starting to think more and more that those results were more of a reflection of how poor those teams were when and since we have played them, rather than how good we are or have the potential to be. They papered over the evident cracks.

Chelsea needn't really be discussed, they've been absolutely turgid this season. As of now, going to their place and winning doesn't stand to be seen as much of an achievement. Manchester City drew with Villa the week before we played them, and lost to Juventus as well right after we played them. They've been incredible hit and miss. Southampton are now winless in 6, and have lost 2 of 3 since we mauled them, with the other result a draw with Villa. It seems as if all the teams that we mauled were and/or still are on bad patches of form, and we played them at exactly the right time.

I'm in no way belittling Klopp's achievements and the way we played when we won those games. He got his tactics spot on. We produced fantastic performances. You can only beat what's in front of you. But we should stop singling those games out when we lose to the likes of Watford or Crystal Palace or whoever it may be and say "but we beat City 4-1 so how can these players go from that to this" and be shocked at how we can go and score 4 at the Etihad but concede 3 to Watford. With each passing week, I'm starting to think that defeats to Crystal Palace, Newcastle, and Watford are not the outliers so far this season, but instead the wins we keep referring to are. We're consistently closer to the level we saw on Sunday than when we beat City 4-1. Or Southampton 6-1.

All in all, Jurgen Klopp has got a massive job on his hands with this squad in the coming weeks and months if we are to achieve something respectable this season. And a massive job to rebuild this team and get them to where he wants them to be, because as of now it is clearly not good enough to compete. And I've got the utmost faith in him to do that job given the right amount of time, support, and resources.

[Miltonred]

I don't think you can draw the conclusion that players are capable of making a great team based on one good performance anymore than you can based on one bad one. Often, though, what separates great players from good ones, and even good ones from "bang average" is the frequency of good performances to bad ones.
Should we really cling onto the hope that some players will come good, because they had that "one great game a few weeks back"?

To compete consistently we need players who perform well 8 times out of ten, because you can win games regularly if 8 of your players have good games, while two or three have an off day. You will struggle if 4,5 or 6 are having an off day. As evidenced in the last three matches.

Jurgen will be looking not just at the skill a player has but his ability to perform to their best level more often than not. We have a few guys who he will not be including in his long term plans based on the  last three games, I bet. And frankly why should I give a shit who the players are who walk out in our shirt when he eventually, as he will no doubt do, puts a competitive team out week in, week out!

[Arcadian]

Without it being an agenda, can we just acknowledge that when Brendan said we had another rebuilding job on our hands he wasn't that far off? I liked him. I prefer Klopp, who is about as perfect a fit for us as you could ask for, but if I can paraphrase Neil from TAW for a moment, a good manager can give you what... A 10% differential?

We are going to have to admit that barring a couple of players the squad is not currently up to the level required with any CONSISTANCY. Therein lies the crux, because we can see them do it from time to time... Man City anyone? Then suddenly we're disappointed the next week.

What a difference Souness would make to this team or Gerrard in his pomp.

What the fuck is going on with Fermino? That Lad needs to settle down and start showing something and quick.

[Caligula?]

Without it being an agenda, can we just acknowledge that when Brendan said we had another rebuilding job on our hands he wasn't that far off? I liked him. I prefer Klopp, who is about as perfect a fit for us as you could ask for, but if I can paraphrase Neil from TAW for a moment, a good manager can give you what... A 10% differential?

We are going to have to admit that barring a couple of players the squad is not currently up to the level required with any CONSISTANCY. Therein lies the crux, because we can see them do it from time to time... Man City anyone? Then suddenly we're disappointed the next week.

What a difference Souness would make to this team or Gerrard in his pomp.

What the fuck is going on with Fermino? That Lad needs to settle down and start showing something and quick.

I don't think many people didn't acknowledge that we had another rebuilding job on our hands mate. Brendan was spot on about it, and it's the reason he went.

[Arcadian]

I don't think many people didn't acknowledge that we had another rebuilding job on our hands mate. Brendan was spot on about it, and it's the reason he went.

Maybe mate. I feel like the overwhelming thought though was that we were underperforming under him but the truth may be closer to the fact that we're positioned exactly where we are on merit.

And again without agenda I agree that the fact we're there again is ultimately what did for him. And rightly so. The buck has to stop somewhere, although whomever is identifying players has been on a downward spiral since Commoli... who looks better each passing year IMHO.

[mrantarctica]

We have been a little uneven since the new manager came in but the raw materials are quite obviously there. In addition, this league has become very strange this season, with "small" teams like Watford, Leicester and Palace doing extremely well, while "big" clubs like Chelsea are underperforming.

Give the players and the manager a chance. Let's see where are at the end of the season. Or, y'know, we could behave like Chelsea fans, or Mancs, and boo and jeer and call for heads to roll, like the classless fucks they are.

It's funny how people can interpret the same information differently. That's the great thing about opinions I suppose, everyone has one.


We did boo and jeer and call for heads to roll. That was the overwhelming sentiment when Rodgers was still here to the point where he even came out and said there was some sort of campaign against him. He was then sacked and we have a new manager now so obviously there's not going to be any jeering going on from our side.

To be fair, it is only Chelsea that is underperforming. Outside of Chelsea, all of the other clubs are around about where they normally finish. In our case, we are below where we want to be but actually since Rafa left we have consistently finished between 6th and 8th except for 1 blip where we nearly won the league. Watford, Leicester and Palace are all exceeding expectations which is great for them but throws our problems into even sharper focus.

We've spent millions of pounds (hundreds actually) on players that can't be decisive in games, can't stay fit, can't be consistent with their form and can't deal with the pressure of playing for a big club (i.e. are not really top players at all).  What that tells me is that somewhere along the way our valuation of players and our ability to spot talent is not producing any decent results at all. Since Rafa left, we have signed or developed about 50 players, of which perhaps only 4 or 5 can really be considered as having "made it" at the club. 2 of them have subsequently been sold and 1 is now permanently injured.

We can discuss transfers and where the squad is weak but for me until we actually sort out what is a reliable way to spot really top players and then pay an appropriate price (not too much but not try to lowball people and miss out either) then it doesn't matter because we will continue to spend on the Lovren's and Lallana's of this world.

As for dissecting the Watford performance (it is a round table after all), well it was symptomatic of our problems for the better part of the last 12 to 18 months. We are nervous and fragile at the back. We don't have adequate protection for our central defenders, who aren't brilliant and definitely struggle against physical bullying opposition. We don't have a cohesive structure in midfield that allows us to swing easily between defending and attacking. On the field, there is very little to suggest that we are compact, organised and well rehearsed in most phases of the game. Going forward our players lack cohesion and as a result look to a small number of players to create some 'magic' to get us through games. The problem is that in this league having pace is a major determinant of having that 'magic' and unfortunately we don't possess any pace - whether it be speed of thought, fluency and speed of passing, or outright dribbling and running speed. Naturally we then look lost for ideas and struggle to create chances for the most part. Part of being able to generate any cohesion is having a settled squad but even that has been disrupted significantly by injuries week in week out - strikers, midfielders, creative players, central defenders, goal keeper - you name it, they've been injured.

I don't see any easy solution to this, as theres nothing we can do about injuries. Our players do need a rocket fired up their arse though. I've seen nothing that even remotely resembles normal pressing let alone gegenpressing. Off the ball I see no desire to win the ball back. On the ball I see no desire to pass and move and create space. All I see is a bunch of players that continually whinge at refereeing decisions going the other way. I'm not saying they need to be running heater skelter but displaying some concerted team effort to win the ball back and a concerted effort to support the player on the ball would be a welcome first step.

[RedMichelFerri]

Flood the midfield, put 2 powerful and fast players up front and watch Liverpool defense and midfield scramble. I love Lucas but I think in these kind of games we need powerful and more mobile DM and CBs to cover. It astonishing that we never win second ball in these type of situations (may be our midfield are not fine tuned for this unlike opposition who wants to employ these tactics). But we need to be able to handle these since every time I see these kind of opposition setup, I dread for worst result. Palace, Newcastle and now Watford.

[Rush 82]

Flood the midfield, put 2 powerful and fast players up front and watch Liverpool defense and midfield scramble. I love Lucas but I think in these kind of games we need powerful and more mobile DM and CBs to cover. It astonishing that we never win second ball in these type of situations (may be our midfield are not fine tuned for this unlike opposition who wants to employ these tactics). But we need to be able to handle these since every time I see these kind of opposition setup, I dread for worst result. Palace, Newcastle and now Watford.

I'd love to know what the plan should be to counter this approach.

Low block? Sit deep, gather in the long ball and use the exact same tactic in reverse? It would make for mighty unattractive football but is there anything else that you can do when the opposition chooses that tactic? You basically take midfield play out of the equation and 'long ball' each other?

[mrantarctica]

I'd love to know what the plan should be to counter this approach.

Low block? Sit deep, gather in the long ball and use the exact same tactic in reverse? It would make for mighty unattractive football but is there anything else that you can do when the opposition chooses that tactic? You basically take midfield play out of the equation and 'long ball' each other?

With both Henderson, Milner and Can in our side we should not have significant difficulties in 'outworking' another team. Yes, we might lack little bit physically or aerially but all 3 players are capable of immense work rate and can probably outwork any midfield in the league. Because of this, the "flood the midfield" tactic is an illusion.

Consider:
                                                  Skrtel                    Sakho
                    Clyne                                                                         Moreno
                                             Milner                             Can
                                                                 Hendo
                                Firmino                                                Coutinho                             
                                                                 Benteke

The Square Block of Skrtel Sakho Milner and Can is our main zone of control when we build up play. To effectively press a square, the opposition would have to commit both forwards and probably 2 other midfielders/attackers which would invariably always leave space somewhere. We have outlets with Clyne and Moreno on the flanks, while Sakho is capable of finding a more advanced player directly also like Hendo or even Coutinho if he is dropping deep to then turn on the ball. The last out is Benteke as a long ball option to bypass a crowded midfield if we are really well and truly stuck for options. This plan relies on Firmino/Coutinho to make sure they seize that ball or lay off from Benteke or to gamble and run past him, to deliver the ball to Hendo who is facing the opposition rather than turn because Hendo doesn't turn well, and it relies on both Milner and Can having tactical discipline to be closely linked and available to distribute in that square block.

What we saw against Watford was a triangle between Skrtel, Sakho and Lucas, and a flat midfield with no depth or movement. Lucas struggled to make himself available for the ball which coupled with some very shaky touches from Sakho and put him under undue pressure. When things broke down, we had no long out, and our midfield was essentially a flat three. This lack of depth gave no space for our full backs to get further forward and start deflecting the pressure that we were receiving from a hard working Watford midfield.

[leivapool]

What are people's thoughts on Lucas dropping in as a CB when we had Toure on the bench,  not on his performance per se,  but more on the rationale behind the decision?  WHy was Toure not brought on,  or Can dropped in as he's had loads of experience there.

FWIW I though Lucas did pretty well for his first ever game there as it's a tough position to get right positionally.  He was pretty strong against Ighalo for most of the half.  and did one Mascheranoesque sliding block!

Not something I'm massively keen to see again,  but I am interested to get the reasoning behind it!

[killer-heels]

I'd love to know what the plan should be to counter this approach.

Low block? Sit deep, gather in the long ball and use the exact same tactic in reverse? It would make for mighty unattractive football but is there anything else that you can do when the opposition chooses that tactic? You basically take midfield play out of the equation and 'long ball' each other?

If you are not going to worry the defence then i dont see how you can stop the opposition executing the game plan. Their forwards were stronger than our centre backs and if they were not, they would have chose another tactic.

What you saw was a Liverpool side that had clearly studied Watford. They play narrow and we tried to create space outwide. The problem was we couldnt execute the game plan. We couldnt by pass the midfield as you say becauee we didnt have any player wanting to break forward, take it on the run and work the channels.

If you compress the game down so much then you are relying on your players to create chances on a tough pitch in tight spaces (which they couldnt) and for your players to win the 50-50's (which they didnt).

[CHOPPER]

Another bad day at the office and one Jurgen must take as much as the flack for as the team. Whether he wants Benteke to offer more or not, like at Newcastle - if we have no focal point of attack(even with him on), teams thrive on that if the mid-field doesn't get on and bomb on and get behind their defence.

We have to match these 'lesser' teams with effort and commitment first and foremost, before we get the right to play our game. Currently, we are not doing that.

[killer-heels]

What are people's thoughts on Lucas dropping in as a CB when we had Toure on the bench,  not on his performance per se,  but more on the rationale behind the decision?  WHy was Toure not brought on,  or Can dropped in as he's had loads of experience there.

FWIW I though Lucas did pretty well for his first ever game there as it's a tough position to get right positionally.  He was pretty strong against Ighalo for most of the half.  and did one Mascheranoesque sliding block!

Not something I'm massively keen to see again,  but I am interested to get the reasoning behind it!

I thought it was a bold move. Can could still offer something to our attack and Lucas was getting bullied out of it anyway so keeping him in midfield was hardly a straightforward choice. We brought Origi on as well so i liked it.

He fell asleep for the last goal but Lucas didnt have that much to worry about because Ighalo and Deeney felt Sakho was the weak link and could get at him of which they were proven right.

[mrantarctica]

What are people's thoughts on Lucas dropping in as a CB when we had Toure on the bench,  not on his performance per se,  but more on the rationale behind the decision?  WHy was Toure not brought on,  or Can dropped in as he's had loads of experience there.

FWIW I though Lucas did pretty well for his first ever game there as it's a tough position to get right positionally.  He was pretty strong against Ighalo for most of the half.  and did one Mascheranoesque sliding block!

Not something I'm massively keen to see again,  but I am interested to get the reasoning behind it!

I think Klopp had already decided that our main problem was a lack of potency up front. We didn't respond well to the first goal (something he reiterated post match) and I think wanted to change our approach by introducing some pace and dynamism up front. Our options would have been to make a double sub (before half time IIRC) or to allow the existing players to slot in at CB. Obviously a double sub at that stage would've been quite risky.

It was then going to be a case of either Lucas or Can and I think he preferred Can's mobility in midfield. Lucas wasn't the most mobile himself in the first half but has generally safer distribution, reads the game better and probably organises the game much better than Can does which is kinda what we needed at the back after Bogdan's early error and Sakho having a nightmare return. Can had also been toiling quite hard down that left hand channel and was getting frustrated at some minor infringing. I suspect he'd have had a really hard time against Deeney and probably given away unnecessary fouls or been carded. The safer bet was Lucas.

As you say, hopefully we never see it again. We're having a terrible run of luck with our CBs picking up injuries. Even Skrtel who has been virtually indestructible over the years.