Author Topic: FSG (*)  (Read 832193 times)

Offline Billy Elliot

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,870
Re: FSG
« Reply #3120 on: February 7, 2017, 09:53:41 am »
*sigh*

I see this thread just goes from strength to strength. Rather than (once again) pointing out the fallacies in so many of the posts I would instead ask posters to start naming club owners they approve of and why.

I think fan ownership will eventually happen at most levels.  Whilst there's so much money involved people will be exploited.  You can see it everywhere, from Hull to Cardiff to Blackpool.  It'll take a while but the bubble will eventually burst and the only people fans will trust will be themselves.
With me 3 star jumper half way up me back!

Offline Grobbelrevell

  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,781
  • Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry & ignorance
    • The Grobbelramble
Re: FSG
« Reply #3121 on: February 7, 2017, 09:58:48 am »
*sigh*

I see this thread just goes from strength to strength. Rather than (once again) pointing out the fallacies in so many of the posts I would instead ask posters to start naming club owners they approve of and why.

Or even just a model in the most general sense.

Whether or not they're the ownership capable of pushing the club on into the top tier of English and European football is another question, but along with that question comes the follow-up of what kind of ownership we need/want in order to do that, if it's not this. So on that, if not FSG, then who? What does this new ownership look like, and how does it run the club in a financial sense? How is it different? Is it sustainable?
Twitter | Blog

TRADE COUNT: +19  /  SoS Member 6854

Offline Jfor83

  • Main Stander
  • ***
  • Posts: 174
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: FSG
« Reply #3122 on: February 7, 2017, 09:59:06 am »
?

What don't you get mate, the poster had asked what do you expect, and I replied that I expected better

Offline cornelius

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,803
  • "Beware the beast man, for he is the Devil's pawn"
Re: FSG
« Reply #3123 on: February 7, 2017, 09:59:50 am »
If we'd won one more league game in 13/14, if we'd won a penalty shoot out against City and if we hadn't capitulated in the second half against Sevilla, I wonder what the majority view of FSG would be after having kept us at Anfield and increased capacity and having landed one of Europe's most feted coaches and secured his services for 6 years.

Such fine margins.

Offline seal75

  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 958
Re: FSG
« Reply #3124 on: February 7, 2017, 09:59:54 am »
What I would like to know is how much dividends FSG take annually... or how do they make profits from this kind of investment.
"Ni pour, ni contre. Bien au contraire!", Coluche.

Offline Jfor83

  • Main Stander
  • ***
  • Posts: 174
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: FSG
« Reply #3125 on: February 7, 2017, 10:02:20 am »
Right...I'm expecting the worst (as in reply's and getting slaughtered), but here goes anyway...

For me, i compare the way our club (or even, any club)  is being run as as like being at a poker table (and yes I've been known top have a gamble). Usually the person with the most amount of money will keep their nerve and gamble more on the cards dealt than someone with less money. So if your going to sit at a table with 'NO LIMIT', then be prepared to be bullied by the higher stakes.

There was a time when the game/owners had an interest in a club (i.e supported them as a youngster or maybe, lived near the team), but now football clubs have become (somewhat) of a statement in terms of 'wealth' and for me that is why so many billionaire owners are looking at buying a football club and prove their position in the big money league. long gone are the days of out doing each other with big houses, flash cars, yachts and private jets (fuck me the footballers themselves have these)  and it's not just happening over here, but it's definitely a Global thing (just look at China Russia etc).

I've always thought of 60,000+ to be the number required for any New/expanded stadium, as minimum (and yes this does include Anfeld). O'k it will and does cost a lot to make/expand these stadiums, but the fact is they are going to continue getting bigger and newer. I sit here and think where will Anfield be in the ranks of stadiums in 10 years time (compared to where it was?). We have the fan base and a season ticket waiting list as long as your arm, so i'm figgering we would have no problem in filling it most games?

Like a lot of people on here i'm on the fence with FSG. All i want for the club is to be a place where we can attract the big names and the odd star player...So it has to be a stadium that stands out from the rest, and we are trying to do that with ours  instead of a modern day fish bowl.

Yes we have our 'History' but we can not survive on the 'past' and if us getting interest in a 'Billionaire' backer/owner is what will help us attract such players and maybe bring back some good times where we can become a 'power force in European football' with a 60'000+ stadium, then for me the fence will have toppled...

As long as those owners have the best interest of the club and remember us as supporters (are there such Billionaires, I don't know?) but one thing is for sure you need to have a bit more than just Millions in the bank to compete with the Billionaires to continue being a club that will survive at the very top.

p.s My post is not about the success on the pitch (as there are many other threads for that) but merely how i feel about the money/wealth of owners/investors today's clubs.

This is one of the best posts on this. Under these owners we many have the odd title challenge or maybe win it, but I don't believe we will sustain any success, to do that we will need owners with more wealth or more willing to take a risk (or maybe both)

Offline CraigDS

  • Lite. Smelt it and dealt it. Worrawhopper.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 61,486
  • YNWA
Re: FSG
« Reply #3126 on: February 7, 2017, 10:03:54 am »
What I would like to know is how much dividends FSG take annually...

Absolutely zero in every set of published accounts. That means they could have in the last set, but I'd say it's unlikely.


Quote
or how do they make profits from this kind of investment.

They will make some profit via their other sports companies, namely NESN and FSM, and having Liverpool will only help push the popularity of these across the world. However the bigger pay day comes when the club is sold.

However that really depends what their aim is. These are all very wealthy men in their own rights, and who could no doubt take their investment in FSG and find a way to make a similar profit without the 'hassle' of being under fan scrutiny (or receive a shit load of abuse) whenever the club loses a game.

Offline sambhi92

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Kopite
  • ******
  • Posts: 951
  • Round the Fields of Anfield Road
Re: FSG
« Reply #3127 on: February 7, 2017, 10:05:44 am »
Saved us from going into administration. Got us one of the best coaches in the world. Finally made Anfield bigger and sounds like we could be make it bigger if Anfield road end gets done. Invested lots of money in players. Finally making use of the clubs global appeal and making money from it.

Think they doing a fine job. We just need to perform on the pitch, simple as really.
Round the Fields of Anfield Road

Offline DonkeyWan

  • ker. Football Genius, Generously gives Young Jürgen pointers to help him improve.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,443
  • I never met a man who wasn't...
Re: FSG
« Reply #3128 on: February 7, 2017, 10:06:18 am »
I think fan ownership will eventually happen at most levels.  Whilst there's so much money involved people will be exploited.  You can see it everywhere, from Hull to Cardiff to Blackpool.  It'll take a while but the bubble will eventually burst and the only people fans will trust will be themselves.
Fan ownership? You want Liverpool to be run like Barcelona and Real Madrid? It would be incredibly difficult, they are only as dominant as they are because of their historical development and the cultural import of both clubs to their region and nation. Politics is rife in their support base and when they clash its as much about Basque versus Spaniard as team versus team. I'm not sure Liverpool could emulate that. I'm not sure it would want to, it's a pretty toxic set up, currently both clubs are massively in debt as successive presidents at both clubs basically bought fan favour by overpaying for players and racking up loans (as well as dodging taxes).

Those are about the only successful fan owned clubs I can think of at the highest level (and they are hardly the progressive models you would hope for). After that its a lot of lower league sides, you may just as well go support AFC Liverpool. Also, those lower league sides are niche and garner the support of local fans only. If Liverpool FC were to be controlled by fans it would need to open up shares to the 300 million fans worldwide, or else it wouldn't be fan owned, it would be just replacing one group with a specific set of interests in running the club with another (larger) group with a specific set of interests in running the club, it wouldn't be truly fan-owned.
Beatings will continue until morale improves...

Offline Grobbelrevell

  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,781
  • Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry & ignorance
    • The Grobbelramble
Re: FSG
« Reply #3129 on: February 7, 2017, 10:06:36 am »
Under these owners we many have the odd title challenge or maybe win it, but I don't believe we will sustain any success, to do that we will need owners with more wealth or more willing to take a risk (or maybe both)

So effectively you want either; (a) an oligarch style owner willing to throw their own money at the club, or (b) deficit spending? I think if you boil it down, (a) is where most people sit on this topic. As for (b), what if the risk fails? How many risks do you take? What are the potential consequences? Is it worth it?
Twitter | Blog

TRADE COUNT: +19  /  SoS Member 6854

Offline Graham Smith

  • Squealer
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,866
  • SOS Vice Chair - Former Chair LFC S/Committee
Re: FSG
« Reply #3130 on: February 7, 2017, 10:10:25 am »
What I would like to know is how much dividends FSG take annually... or how do they make profits from this kind of investment.

They do not take any dividends out.

They leverage in the US the capital growth of the LFC asset that sits within their stable.

So the FSG business group can raise more money for more acquisitions or investments.

So when they found the £50m black hole after buying us they will have used the FSG financial muscle to raise funds within FSG and then put them into LFC - that investment was ameliorated by the fact that LFC has grown in value and they get repaid in its capital value.

If FSG needed to invest in say the Red Sox they use the FSG financial clout to raise money - that financial clout is strengthened by having LFC in their stable.

I feel sorry for LeBron James - poor lamb is sitting there on his nest egg and can't or doesn't want to cash his chip in (why would you?) - all the time pulling his tripe out for us at L4.
Hunt Bromley got Ringo

@GPS1892

Offline CraigDS

  • Lite. Smelt it and dealt it. Worrawhopper.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 61,486
  • YNWA
Re: FSG
« Reply #3131 on: February 7, 2017, 10:11:38 am »
They do not take any dividends out.

They leverage in the US the capital growth of the LFC asset that sits within their stable.

So the FSG business group can raise more money for more acquisitions or investments.

So when they found the £50m black hole after buying us they will have used the FSG financial muscle to raise funds within FSG and then put them into LFC - that investment was ameliorated by the fact that LFC has grown in value and they get repaid in its capital value.

If FSG needed to invest in say the Red Sox they use the FSG financial clout to raise money - that financial clout is strengthened by having LFC in their stable.

I feel sorry for LeBron James - poor lamb is sitting there on his nest egg and can't or doesn't want to cash his chip in (why would you?) - all the time pulling his tripe out for us at L4.

You got any evidence of them leveraging the value of FSG to raise funds, Graham?

Offline ToneLa

  • you know the rules but I make the game.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,818
  • I AM FURIOUS, RED (STILL)
Re: FSG
« Reply #3132 on: February 7, 2017, 10:12:36 am »
*sigh*

I see this thread just goes from strength to strength. Rather than (once again) pointing out the fallacies in so many of the posts I would instead ask posters to start naming club owners they approve of and why.

We tried that. It isn't easily deflected and spun, a direct question is best avoided; the most frequent anti-FSG poster actually said he doesn't care enough about ownership to answer.  ;D

What Prem Club would you do a magic ownership switch with and why?

Broken record Tone, spins himself right round  ;)

Offline Graham Smith

  • Squealer
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,866
  • SOS Vice Chair - Former Chair LFC S/Committee
Re: FSG
« Reply #3133 on: February 7, 2017, 10:13:48 am »
Fan ownership? You want Liverpool to be run like Barcelona and Real Madrid? It would be incredibly difficult, they are only as dominant as they are because of their historical development and the cultural import of both clubs to their region and nation. Politics is rife in their support base and when they clash its as much about Basque versus Spaniard as team versus team. I'm not sure Liverpool could emulate that. I'm not sure it would want to, it's a pretty toxic set up, currently both clubs are massively in debt as successive presidents at both clubs basically bought fan favour by overpaying for players and racking up loans (as well as dodging taxes).

Those are about the only successful fan owned clubs I can think of at the highest level (and they are hardly the progressive models you would hope for). After that its a lot of lower league sides, you may just as well go support AFC Liverpool. Also, those lower league sides are niche and garner the support of local fans only. If Liverpool FC were to be controlled by fans it would need to open up shares to the 300 million fans worldwide, or else it wouldn't be fan owned, it would be just replacing one group with a specific set of interests in running the club with another (larger) group with a specific set of interests in running the club, it wouldn't be truly fan-owned.

That misses so many points about supporter ownership and shows a wikipedia grasp of what supporter models look like and can be.

This isn't the thread for this debate though.
Hunt Bromley got Ringo

@GPS1892

Offline Grobbelrevell

  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,781
  • Travel is fatal to prejudice, bigotry & ignorance
    • The Grobbelramble
Re: FSG
« Reply #3134 on: February 7, 2017, 10:14:37 am »
Finally made Anfield bigger and sounds like we could be make it bigger if Anfield road end gets done.

I'd be staggered if that goes ahead.
Twitter | Blog

TRADE COUNT: +19  /  SoS Member 6854

Offline DonkeyWan

  • ker. Football Genius, Generously gives Young Jürgen pointers to help him improve.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,443
  • I never met a man who wasn't...
Re: FSG
« Reply #3135 on: February 7, 2017, 10:16:25 am »
That misses so many points about supporter ownership and shows a wikipedia grasp of what supporter models look like and can be.

This isn't the thread for this debate though.
No, it's a thread to make erroneous comments about the current owners as far as I can see. Why shy away from the question? Open up the debate I say
Beatings will continue until morale improves...

Offline Jfor83

  • Main Stander
  • ***
  • Posts: 174
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: FSG
« Reply #3136 on: February 7, 2017, 10:16:50 am »
So effectively you want either; (a) an oligarch style owner willing to throw their own money at the club, or (b) deficit spending? I think if you boil it down, (a) is where most people sit on this topic. As for (b), what if the risk fails? How many risks do you take? What are the potential consequences? Is it worth it?

Yes (a) mate sadly it's the way footy is these days. I would never want us to risk the club but that doesn't mean we can't take more risks than we do at the moment.

Offline Graham Smith

  • Squealer
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,866
  • SOS Vice Chair - Former Chair LFC S/Committee
Re: FSG
« Reply #3137 on: February 7, 2017, 10:20:49 am »
You got any evidence of them leveraging the value of FSG to raise funds, Graham?

Really? So an investment vehicle in the US does not increase its capital growth to raise funds for more investments and to increase its capital growth? Thats their raison d'être.

It isn't evil, it is just what it is.
Hunt Bromley got Ringo

@GPS1892

Offline Billy Elliot

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,870
Re: FSG
« Reply #3138 on: February 7, 2017, 10:23:48 am »
Fan ownership? You want Liverpool to be run like Barcelona and Real Madrid? It would be incredibly difficult, they are only as dominant as they are because of their historical development and the cultural import of both clubs to their region and nation. Politics is rife in their support base and when they clash its as much about Basque versus Spaniard as team versus team. I'm not sure Liverpool could emulate that. I'm not sure it would want to, it's a pretty toxic set up, currently both clubs are massively in debt as successive presidents at both clubs basically bought fan favour by overpaying for players and racking up loans (as well as dodging taxes).

Those are about the only successful fan owned clubs I can think of at the highest level (and they are hardly the progressive models you would hope for). After that its a lot of lower league sides, you may just as well go support AFC Liverpool. Also, those lower league sides are niche and garner the support of local fans only. If Liverpool FC were to be controlled by fans it would need to open up shares to the 300 million fans worldwide, or else it wouldn't be fan owned, it would be just replacing one group with a specific set of interests in running the club with another (larger) group with a specific set of interests in running the club, it wouldn't be truly fan-owned.

The Premier League is a product, all teams that play in it are products.  Products have limited life cycles.  Who'd have thought ten years ago that each club's supporters would feel the need to set up Unions or Trusts to protect the interest of the fan?  It's pretty mad when you think about that, fan interest.  I'd say the niche you talk about is people who have became priced out, or distanced and when Clubs are changing the colour of the kit to be more attractive to the far East then the niche will grow, until it's no longer a niche.

When local fans lose interest and identity is lost, then the current target market will lose interest as well.
With me 3 star jumper half way up me back!

Offline DonkeyWan

  • ker. Football Genius, Generously gives Young Jürgen pointers to help him improve.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,443
  • I never met a man who wasn't...
Re: FSG
« Reply #3139 on: February 7, 2017, 10:29:44 am »
The Premier League is a product, all teams that play in it are products.  Products have limited life cycles.  Who'd have thought ten years ago that each club's supporters would feel the need to set up Unions or Trusts to protect the interest of the fan?  It's pretty mad when you think about that, fan interest.  I'd say the niche you talk about is people who have became priced out, or distanced and when Clubs are changing the colour of the kit to be more attractive to the far East then the niche will grow, until it's no longer a niche.

When local fans lose interest and identity is lost, then the current target market will lose interest as well.

The problem with that is that clubs like Liverpool are utterly dependent on those foreign fans that so many local fans are so happy to decry. It's all very well to complain about local fans losing interest, but those local fans are only too happy to benefit from the TV money, from merchandise sales, from pre-season trips abroad etc. A local club for local people is the Everton mantra and they earn about 40% of what Liverpool make. To compete they have had to sellout to a rich oligarch. Is that what people want for Liverpool?
Beatings will continue until morale improves...

Offline CraigDS

  • Lite. Smelt it and dealt it. Worrawhopper.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 61,486
  • YNWA
Re: FSG
« Reply #3140 on: February 7, 2017, 10:32:51 am »
Really? So an investment vehicle in the US does not increase its capital growth to raise funds for more investments and to increase its capital growth? Thats their raison d'être.

It isn't evil, it is just what it is.

So I take it that's a no, you have absolutely no evidence at all? You're just making an assumption and trying to pass it off as fact.

Offline Jfor83

  • Main Stander
  • ***
  • Posts: 174
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: FSG
« Reply #3141 on: February 7, 2017, 10:33:30 am »
The problem with that is that clubs like Liverpool are utterly dependent on those foreign fans that so many local fans are so happy to decry. It's all very well to complain about local fans losing interest, but those local fans are only too happy to benefit from the TV money, from merchandise sales, from pre-season trips abroad etc. A local club for local people is the Everton mantra and they earn about 40% of what Liverpool make. To compete they have had to sellout to a rich oligarch. Is that what people want for Liverpool?

Yes.

Offline DonkeyWan

  • ker. Football Genius, Generously gives Young Jürgen pointers to help him improve.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,443
  • I never met a man who wasn't...
Re: FSG
« Reply #3142 on: February 7, 2017, 10:36:27 am »
So I take it that's a no, you have absolutely no evidence at all? You're just making an assumption and trying to pass it off as fact.
I would be interested in hearing what his plans for fan ownership of the club are (hint: it will probably include drawing a geographic line in the sand and insisting that only local fans who 'get' the club will be allowed run it).
Beatings will continue until morale improves...

Offline El Lobo

  • Chief Suck Up. Feel his breath on your face. Toxic, pathetic, arse-faced, weaselling slimeball. RAWK Maths Genius 2022.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 54,990
  • Pretty, pretty, pretty pretty good
Re: FSG
« Reply #3143 on: February 7, 2017, 10:48:48 am »
Lets just wait until the summer to make a proper judgement. If we sell Coutinho then legitimate questions need to be asked and if we dont but dont spend much then also questions need to be asked. At the moment a lot of the questions are towards the footballing side.

If we'd won one more league game in 13/14, if we'd won a penalty shoot out against City and if we hadn't capitulated in the second half against Sevilla, I wonder what the majority view of FSG would be after having kept us at Anfield and increased capacity and having landed one of Europe's most feted coaches and secured his services for 6 years.

Such fine margins.

This is it for me.

They'll never be good enough if we just go back to slating the owners during a bad spell on the pitch.
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline Klippity Klopp

  • LFC. For life! Yes! Not just for Kloppmas.....nooo.....
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,438
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: FSG
« Reply #3144 on: February 7, 2017, 10:51:47 am »
Klopp, Pearce, Barrett, Ready - all say it is his choice to pull out of the deals for players like Gotze or Draxler.

However it seems most people seem to ignore what our manager and the other more reliable people say about our club and point the fingers at FSG, with no source just their own hunch.

FSG probably do want to make money from us.  Most chairman will be the same in our league, bar the Man City and Chelsea ones.

I have no problem with them making money from us, as long as we are well run in order to have sustained success.

For that to happen you need to have the right manager and structure to provide that.  They have got that manager in Klopp.  He has proven to build a quality, winning team, on a low budget and punch above his weight winning the German League twice vs Bayern who have far greater resources.  Not to mention what he did in Europe with that team.  But that team wasn't an instant success.  It took a couple of years for Klopp to improve the squad, coach and improve.  It's not like he bought world beater and put then together and they instantly became great.  Quite the opposite.

Our fans want big names, big money spent.  In the summer I think we learnt a good lesson that big money and top reputation on Gotze, wasn't necessarily the best fit for our team under Klopp, than Mane.  Although at the time, the majority of our fans were craving Gotze and unimpressed with the Mane signing.  It's about the right player, not the most expensive or biggest reputation. 

People blame FSG for only wanting young players, I'm sure it is their preference, but they have bought older ones like Benteke, which shows that isn't always the case.  But more importantly, it is also Klopps choice, to get young, hungry players who will run through a brick wall for him and he can mould into his way of playing.  But he won't be rash and panic buy, he'll wait before getting someone he really wants like Brandt or Pulisic, than go for another alternative... especially someone like Draxler, who it seems he liked as a player but was only focussed about money.  Klopp has strong values and I like it how he sticks to those beliefs.  In the long term that approach will be best for our club IMO as we've wasted far too much money over the years on players who have not been either good enough or worth what we have paid.

In the short term that might mean we miss out on a Gotze or a Draxler, but in the long term we might get the better fit for the long term such as Mane or Brandt.  Money can speed up success, but you still need to spend the money right, just look at Man Utd with Di Maria and other players they have bought for massive funds the last few years, with little to show for it.

Are our scouts good enough?  Hard to say IMO.  I think when we get players like Coutinho, Firmino, Mane, Can, Gomez etc - then you'd say yes.  But obviously there have been plenty of failures as well.  I think most scouting structures would have a similar set of results.  For me the key is to accept that you'll make mistakes and get rid of the ones who don't work out.  The issue is when you keep persisting with players who are clearly not right for the club or set up.  I think we did that with Benteke for example.  Sure, bad buy.  But we got rid of him when that was clear and we move on.  I hope Klopp continues to be ruthless in that regard, even if some of those players are ones he signed himself.  Managers will make mistakes, the problem is not changing the mistakes quickly.

I didn't expect everything to be rosy under Klopp over night.  People can point to FSG and say they have been here for a long term and we should have seen better.  But the owners don't buy the players, coach the teams, select the team, do the tactics etc.  FSG have trusted others to do that for them - Dalglish, Comolli, Rodgers, The Committee - now Klopp.  I think FSG have made mistakes in the past, but they have shown a willingness to learn from them and I believe the appointment of Klopp shows that.   If you have an approach to the game, where it is not about spending massively like Chelsea & Man City, then you need a manager like Klopp - they're done that.  They need to give him everything they can to give him the best chance of working.  According to Klopp (I believe him, given he's not a 'yes man') they have done that.  Klopp has said he also has first & last say on all transfers - a role that not all managers get in Europe.

Our fans want everything now.  More money spent now.  Trophies now.  New players now.  Sadly, these things take time - especially with our approach and what Klopp (and FSG) inherited.  Last summer we could have thrown more money and possibly got Gotze - doesn't mean he would be better than Mane or compliment Firmino & Coutinho as much.  I think Mane has been a perfect fit for Klopp and our team, especially as we lacked pace.   We could go spend massively like Man U did with Di Maria and it flop, the idea that he'll isntantly improve us, but it doesn't always work out like that. 

Klopp isn't building something here for instantly success.  If we win in the short term, then great.  But I believe he wants long term, sustained success.  For that to happen it's about getting the right players who can offer you for 5+ years, not just one or two.  Hence why he won't panic buy unless he finds the right players.

I believe we can be successful with FSG's approach, especially with Klopp at the helm.  He has proven it at Dortmund before, building a team with not huge resources (and we have far more resources than they had).  Look at Atletico competing with Barca & Real, despite not having huge resources.  It isn't easy, it is far easier throwing money at it like Mourinho does and having instantly success.  But it doesn't mean this approach can't work with patience, belief and everyone buying into it - the players, owners, manager and fans.

The people who want the short term approach, yes we'd probably need new owners, we can hire Mourinho and watch a classless guy on the side of the pitch, constantly blaming refs etc.  We can have players on bigger wages, who care less for the club - but we'd probably have more trophies in the short term.  If that's what you want then you don't want Klopp.  Klopp builds things, he doesn't buy great players - he buys potential and makes them great.  Actually it's a perfect fit for LFC, as we have a history of making players great.

FSG & Klopp are united in their approach.  If you don't like FSG, I really don't think you should like Klopp - they have the same idea of what they want.  Personally I'm happy with both and although FSG aren't perfect, nor if is Klopp - I think they can be successful and I am patient enough to give it the best chance of success.   

Offline Cpt_Reina

  • Vibranium goalie gloves.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,655
  • YNWA
Re: FSG
« Reply #3145 on: February 7, 2017, 10:53:53 am »
We missed out on the league because our squad was too thin to maintain the form needed to get over the line, we had fucking Aspas and Moses coming off the bench to try and win us games, its a miracle that we even stood a chance at all.

We lost the Europa League final last year because our squad lacked the quality to be able to play through a good team in Sevilla, we also fell off a cliff in the league because the manager had to choose which one to prioritise rather than being able to compete in both competitions.

I fail to see how these 'near misses' are a defence of the criticism leveled at the ownership for not providing the managers with good enough playing staff.

Offline Redman0151

  • Stills and Nash Warloch
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 21,967
Re: FSG
« Reply #3146 on: February 7, 2017, 10:54:22 am »
I would be interested in hearing what his plans for fan ownership of the club are (hint: it will probably include drawing a geographic line in the sand and insisting that only local fans who 'get' the club will be allowed run it).

The issue has nothing to do with Local fans vs OOT, let's not try and randomly push that into the conversation
"I would say we certainly have the resources to compete with anybody in football." Tom Werner 12/04/2012

Offline LallanaInPyjamas

  • Keita's shit, Bundesliga's shit, Bundesliga 2's shit
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,652
  • RAWK Cheltenham 2020 Champion Tipster*
Re: FSG
« Reply #3147 on: February 7, 2017, 10:55:16 am »
If we'd won one more league game in 13/14, if we'd won a penalty shoot out against City and if we hadn't capitulated in the second half against Sevilla, I wonder what the majority view of FSG would be after having kept us at Anfield and increased capacity and having landed one of Europe's most feted coaches and secured his services for 6 years.

Such fine margins.

It's a fair point. The league title in particular would have kept us sweet for many years I'd imagine. But as much as if you gave me a choice now for it to happen or not I'd still pick yes every single day of the week, perhaps there's a good side to us missing out in 2014, as there's more than enough evidence before and after that season to suggest it would have been papering over the cracks.

Should a club like Liverpool really be relying on 'fine margins'? We were winning trophies and finishing in the top four under financially poorer owners consistently throughout the 00's. Yes, things out of FSG's control happened to damage that, which I'll touch on a bit later. But that league campaign is the only time we've challenged for the top four, let alone the title, under their ownership in 6-7 years. The fact is we aren't investing at a level which allows for a consistent, sustainable challenge on all fronts. It feels like we run out of steam at one or two points during every season because of a lack of players the manager trusts, often meaning he then has to sacrifice a trophy or two in order to concentrate on the league; or visa versa such as in 11/12 and 15/16, which leads to embarrassments like finishing 8th, which had only happened once since the 60's, which in turn puts top players off joining us (along with FSG's complete no-no to big wages on an initial contract). The ninth richest club in the world simply should not have to run in this way on the pitch.

I tend to forgive FSG for their mistakes in the first couple of years; they were completely alien to football and how it works both on and off the pitch and were dealt a difficult hand in terms of Hodgson/Kenny, yet still wrote off most of our debt and significantly backed Kenny in the transfer market in the summer of 2011. They were also unfortunate that City were ready and waiting to usurp our position in the top four, which happened that very summer after Spurs had pipped them the previous year.

It's their reaction to that summer of setbacks which I didn't like. In 2012 it felt like they were turning their back on the club somewhat; disgusted by our waste of money and on a wider note, the dark side of football John Henry has frequently referred to. But ultimately it was their trust in Comolli which had largely failed (even though a few of his picks latterly came good), yet they still remained staunchly adhered to stats. Doesn't fit the profile; won't back the manager. That's been the recurring theme of their ownership, certainly prior to Klopp arriving, and we still don't really know how they are profiling and targeting players. It's why we ended up with Alberto Moreno instead of Ryan Bertrand, and no doubt countless other mistakes which essentially happened because the people in charge of transfers - the 'committee' - spent more time watching spreadsheets than real football.

This has undoubtedly contributed to a financially stable club, because we tend to sell most players for decent money, particularly a few we hit the jackpot with, but I don't think it's easy to be successful on the pitch in this way. I'd rather just get the player the manager wants rather than constantly thinking about how much he'll be worth in a few years. There have of course been a few exceptions like James Milner and Kolo Toure, free agents who we overpaid for in terms of wages at an older age, but a few footnotes in 6-7 years doesn't really cut it.

There needs to be more flexibility. Perhaps there is now with Jurgen and we're yet to really see it in action. Like FSG seemed to behave in 2012 and 2013, perhaps we're in turn burnt by their mistakes and struggling to trust. But, given the players we've already missed out on under Klopp, and more damningly the complete inertia of the last transfer window when we were in blatant need of a fresh face or two, I'm sure I'm not the only one holding my breath.
« Last Edit: February 7, 2017, 10:58:39 am by LallanaInPyjamas »

Offline Chris~

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,568
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: FSG
« Reply #3148 on: February 7, 2017, 10:56:03 am »
We missed out on the league because our squad was too thin to maintain the form needed to get over the line, we had fucking Aspas and Moses coming off the bench to try and win us games, its a miracle that we even stood a chance at all.
I mean Moses is a starter for the team running away with the league. And the only players to score more than Aspas in La Liga are Ronaldo, Suarez and Messi.

I get the point that we didn't have much depth, but it's not like we were looking at Babel and N'Gog.
« Last Edit: February 7, 2017, 10:59:10 am by Chris~ »

Offline Graham Smith

  • Squealer
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,866
  • SOS Vice Chair - Former Chair LFC S/Committee
Re: FSG
« Reply #3149 on: February 7, 2017, 10:59:06 am »
So I take it that's a no, you have absolutely no evidence at all? You're just making an assumption and trying to pass it off as fact.

FSG are acquisitive - in 2013 they attempted a media buy for the New England Media Group. That is the use of the capital value of FSG in the US feeling they can seek to acquire other assets.

This isn't a controversial position to take and it doesn't make them Satan - an investment company seeks to be as strong as possible to allow it to continue to expand and uses its assets to support those acquisitions - it was what they did when using the value of the baseball and racing car teams to acquire us.

You really need to not see things so narrowly - one can challenge their management of LFC and our undeniable failure on the pitch since they have been here while allowing recognition of a perfectly logical point that their ownership of an appreciating asset in LFC allows them to consider other acquisitions using FSG.

Here's a simple one for you - has LFC made FSG stronger as an investment group or weaker since they bought us? Bearing in mind we were bought for £254m and must be valued at three times that now?
Hunt Bromley got Ringo

@GPS1892

Offline Cpt_Reina

  • Vibranium goalie gloves.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,655
  • YNWA
Re: FSG
« Reply #3150 on: February 7, 2017, 10:59:06 am »
I mean Moses is a starter for the team running away with the league. And the only players to score more than Aspas in La Liga are Ronaldo, Suarez and Messi.

Moses is playing in defence for Chelsea, hes not being asked to come on and win a game for them. They have players like Fabregas and Pedro for that.

Aspas is shit and La Liga goals are easy to come by.

Offline DonkeyWan

  • ker. Football Genius, Generously gives Young Jürgen pointers to help him improve.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,443
  • I never met a man who wasn't...
Re: FSG
« Reply #3151 on: February 7, 2017, 10:59:06 am »
The issue has nothing to do with Local fans vs OOT, let's not try and randomly push that into the conversation
You reckon not but I am still wondering what the proposed fan ownership model will look like.
Beatings will continue until morale improves...

Offline Billy Elliot

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,870
Re: FSG
« Reply #3152 on: February 7, 2017, 10:59:47 am »
The problem with that is that clubs like Liverpool are utterly dependent on those foreign fans that so many local fans are so happy to decry. It's all very well to complain about local fans losing interest, but those local fans are only too happy to benefit from the TV money, from merchandise sales, from pre-season trips abroad etc. A local club for local people is the Everton mantra and they earn about 40% of what Liverpool make. To compete they have had to sellout to a rich oligarch. Is that what people want for Liverpool?

I'm not sure how any match going fans (regardless of where they're from) has benefitted.  Same with any other increases in income streams.  It gives the clubs more to spend on wages but then ticket prices continue to increase up to the point of where the Premier League becomes so far removed from what made it attractive to the overseas market in the first place.

What I'm saying is something that I think is inevitable.  Maybe not for another ten years or so but it's inevitable.  Whilst each Club is a product, and every competition is a product there's quite a dangerous game being played with basic economics. 

It'll lead to a European Super League  or fan ownership.  It has to.

With me 3 star jumper half way up me back!

Offline Redman0151

  • Stills and Nash Warloch
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 21,967
Re: FSG
« Reply #3153 on: February 7, 2017, 10:59:53 am »
We missed out on the league because our squad was too thin to maintain the form needed to get over the line, we had fucking Aspas and Moses coming off the bench to try and win us games, its a miracle that we even stood a chance at all.

We lost the Europa League final last year because our squad lacked the quality to be able to play through a good team in Sevilla, we also fell off a cliff in the league because the manager had to choose which one to prioritise rather than being able to compete in both competitions.

I fail to see how these 'near misses' are a defence of the criticism leveled at the ownership for not providing the managers with good enough playing staff.

Exactly.

Rodgers had 13-14 players he trusted in 13/14, many of them either old and past their prime (Toure, Johnson, Gerrard) or young and years away from their prime (Flanagan, Sterling, Coutinho). He had to play Sturridge through injury at the end of the season, and even the unstoppable Suarez slowed down in the second half of the season, probably due to the toll on his body of playing all game, every game.

The league is the bread and butter, and bar 1 year in 7 under FSG, the club has finished 6th-8th in the league. They haven't built a squad with the depth to compete on more than 1 front, they've invested what little they can get away with without the fear of potentially losing some money themselves. If I had to describe their idea of football with 1 word it would be cowardly. Afraid to take any risk and just follow what their spreadsheet tells them to do.

The ultimate conclusion is this though. If Jurgen Klopp of all people can't make their model work, then i'm sorry but the model has to fundamentally change or they have to go. Because if Klopp can't turn the water into wine then nobody in the world will, and we're stuck in perpetual mediocrity with the occasional crazy cup run or go at the league
"I would say we certainly have the resources to compete with anybody in football." Tom Werner 12/04/2012

Offline CraigDS

  • Lite. Smelt it and dealt it. Worrawhopper.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 61,486
  • YNWA
Re: FSG
« Reply #3154 on: February 7, 2017, 11:02:35 am »
FSG are acquisitive - in 2013 they attempted a media buy for the New England Media Group. That is the use of the capital value of FSG in the US feeling they can seek to acquire other assets.

This isn't a controversial position to take and it doesn't make them Satan - an investment company seeks to be as strong as possible to allow it to continue to expand and uses its assets to support those acquisitions - it was what they did when using the value of the baseball and racing car teams to acquire us.

You really need to not see things so narrowly - one can challenge their management of LFC and our undeniable failure on the pitch since they have been here while allowing recognition of a perfectly logical point that their ownership of an appreciating asset in LFC allows them to consider other acquisitions using FSG.

It's not about seeing things narrowly. What you suggest is entirely possible, and I am not denying it. However you said it so matter of fact that I assumed you had some actual evidence of them leveraging the club and their other assets to raise finance for other investments.

You appear to be just making an assumption though, correct?


Quote
Here's a simple one for you - has LFC made FSG stronger as an investment group or weaker since they bought us? Bearing in mind we were bought for £254m and must be valued at three times that now?

Of course it's stronger, little doubt about that. Doesn't mean they have leveraged that additional value in any way, of course.

Offline LallanaInPyjamas

  • Keita's shit, Bundesliga's shit, Bundesliga 2's shit
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,652
  • RAWK Cheltenham 2020 Champion Tipster*
Re: FSG
« Reply #3155 on: February 7, 2017, 11:07:28 am »
I mean Moses is a starter for the team running away with the league. And the only players to score more than Aspas in La Liga are Ronaldo, Suarez and Messi.

Moses is starting purely to provide width in a unique formation, not numbers as he was expected to during his time with us in a front three.

The fact is Moses was a loan signing from a rival who only allowed us to have him because they didn't consider us a serious one at the time, and Aspas was a cheap punt based on the classic committee model to play back-up to Sturridge and Suarez. Watching him in action for a mere 45 minutes during pre-season was enough to know he was never going to physically make the grade in England, yet we still signed him and Luis Alberto from Spain's second tier to be a first 18 player for us.

Talk about feeble.

So £15m on transfer fees, plus whatever wages the three cost us, rather than one genuinely good player who could have made a real difference that season. The same applies to £27m on Illori and Sakho, neither of whom it seems Rodgers really wanted. Another player instead who the manager actually wanted could have helped us concede fewer goals.

We then did the same thing the following summer, spreading ourselves way too thinly, for example £60m on Lallana, Markovic and Balotelli, rather than giving Rodgers Lallana, who we know he specifically asked for along with Lovren, and one other very good attacking player he would have genuinely wanted. We also gave Rodgers the diabolical Moreno rather than Bertrand, based on the same chance creation stats which saw us sign Downing, Adam and Henderson in 2011.

They seemed to learn from their mistakes in that summer of 2011 by deciding to spend less money yet still use the same model. A sure way to achieve success!

It's laughable that we seriously expected him to succeed in all honesty. Klopp seems to be getting a fairer crack of the whip at things, but as many have already pointed out, this summer is the real test. I suspect they will invest big because they know they have to.
« Last Edit: February 7, 2017, 11:13:28 am by LallanaInPyjamas »

Offline Robinred

  • Wanted for burglary.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,743
  • Red since '64
Re: FSG
« Reply #3156 on: February 7, 2017, 11:08:55 am »
Moses is playing in defence for Chelsea, hes not being asked to come on and win a game for them. They have players like Fabregas and Pedro for that.

Aspas is shit and La Liga goals are easy to come by.

For a sensible poster, you occasionally post crap. I suppose we all do.

Aspas didn't work out here, but that sometimes happens. Now, approaching 30, he's in the form of his life, and has been called into the Spain squad. Shit he most certainly isn't.
"The first revolt is against the supreme tyranny of theology...as long as we have a master in heaven, we will be slaves on earth." Mikhail Bakunin

Offline pyroparty

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,325
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: FSG
« Reply #3157 on: February 7, 2017, 11:14:43 am »
The problem with that is that clubs like Liverpool are utterly dependent on those foreign fans that so many local fans are so happy to decry.

Are we fuck. And I dont think people decry all foreign fans, just the selfie stick, half and half bellends.

Offline Cpt_Reina

  • Vibranium goalie gloves.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,655
  • YNWA
Re: FSG
« Reply #3158 on: February 7, 2017, 11:22:18 am »
For a sensible poster, you occasionally post crap. I suppose we all do.

Aspas didn't work out here, but that sometimes happens. Now, approaching 30, he's in the form of his life, and has been called into the Spain squad. Shit he most certainly isn't.

No he is, I saw him play for Liverpool and everything. He's shit.

Good against the rubbish in La Liga though.

Offline Redman0151

  • Stills and Nash Warloch
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 21,967
Re: FSG
« Reply #3159 on: February 7, 2017, 11:22:50 am »
For a sensible poster, you occasionally post crap. I suppose we all do.

Aspas didn't work out here, but that sometimes happens. Now, approaching 30, he's in the form of his life, and has been called into the Spain squad. Shit he most certainly isn't.

Aspas didn't work out because he didn't have the physicality or mentality for the league.

But rather than arguing specifics I think the greater point is that Rodgers had to rely on a loan player and a £7m punt from a foreign league as depth when we're supposed to be the 9th richest club in the world
"I would say we certainly have the resources to compete with anybody in football." Tom Werner 12/04/2012