Author Topic: RAWK Round Table LFC 5-1 AFC  (Read 40573 times)

Offline GrkStav

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 5-1 AFC
« Reply #160 on: February 11, 2014, 12:15:50 am »
The ball and the run were too fast for anyone to catch up with, Grk. Allen was covering the middle in case Coutinho turned over the ball. Everyone who could have got forward on the break, got forward.

Allen did so, and probably rightly. My guess is that if Lucas were in the '1' position in the 1-2 he may have joined in. Maybe.

What about the right back, in this case Flano? Could he have gotten forward, joined in as a late runner?

As others said, as well, the fact we were ahead, comfortably, when the chance developed probably had something to do with it.
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Offline GrkStav

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 5-1 AFC
« Reply #161 on: February 11, 2014, 12:16:52 am »
Plus we're 5-0 up and have a game on Wednesday. There's no reason to bust a bollock in that situation for the sake of making an extra man.

Agreed.
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 5-1 AFC
« Reply #162 on: February 11, 2014, 12:20:53 am »
Allen did so, and probably rightly. My guess is that if Lucas were in the '1' position in the 1-2 he may have joined in. Maybe.

What about the right back, in this case Flano? Could he have gotten forward, joined in as a late runner?

As others said, as well, the fact we were ahead, comfortably, when the chance developed probably had something to do with it.

If Henderson took another touch, and turned with the ball once he was in the box, then Flanagan would have pushed up more to offer the wide support. But we were on the counterattack, so it was important not to get too far forward and create gaps that Arsenal could have hurt us in. The triggers for the players to make their movements were important, and they were probably being observant of those
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Offline redmark

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 5-1 AFC
« Reply #163 on: February 11, 2014, 12:32:15 am »
Allen did so, and probably rightly. My guess is that if Lucas were in the '1' position in the 1-2 he may have joined in. Maybe.

What about the right back, in this case Flano? Could he have gotten forward, joined in as a late runner?

As others said, as well, the fact we were ahead, comfortably, when the chance developed probably had something to do with it.

The last time you can see Flanagan in the picture, he's 10 yards behind Henderson but only just starting to jog as Henderson begins to accelerate. When Henderson receives the ball, Flanagan isn't within 40 yards and likely coasted to around the halfway line (he was in position if Coutinho checked and knocked the ball wide), knowing that a sharp breakaway like that was more than likely to result in a goal, goal kick, corner or Arsenal possession rather than any slow down and check back by Henderson.
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Offline slimbo

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 5-1 AFC
« Reply #164 on: February 11, 2014, 12:35:22 am »

On this point: does Rafa's spring 2009 side figure in that discussion? There may have been moments under Evans too, in terms of attacking fluidity.

The demolitions of United and Madrid in Rafa's best spell have to rank alongside Saturday, in their ruthless, swaggering, brutal destruction of 'top class' opposition. Yet that side was the culmination of five years, not 18 months, of Rafa's ideas. His side featured a number of players at their absolute peak; some never to equal that run.

Seven of Saturday's lineup are 25 or under (yet only Arsenal and United traditionally get pundits waxing lyrical about their youthful approach). Sakho replacing Toure would bring the average age down to 24 (Allen or Lucas in for Gerrard would bring it to 23). We have the most exciting crop of youngsters coming up behind the first team squad we've had for decades.

Telegraph: "... for 20 astonishing first-half minutes Liverpool produced the most exhilarating football seen in the Premier League this season. Or any season."


I was fortunate enough to be there for the Madrid game. I've watched it many times. The first 5min was amazing and set the tone for the rest of the match. I must say this match was above that level. After the first goal in about a minute the TV goes to a replay of it, only to cut it short because another attack is launched less than a minute later. That first 20min was breathtaking.

Torres was very much the focal point of that side with Gerrard behind him and a very effective Alonso and Masch behind. But I must say, and agree, that what we have in Suarez, Sturridge, Sterling & Coutinho is as good as we will see for a long time. Suarez has the guile, determination & genius, Sturridge has an instinctive finishing ability, pace and skill. He is rarely dispossesed and runs the spaces well. Sterling, raw talent, and if he can learn to finish like Sturridge what a player he will be. Coutinho, he has come under some criticism which I feel is a little unfair. Again, rarely loses the ball and his range of passing and vision draws gasps. I think his criticism comes because his vision is so much stronger than those around him.

It's exciting times and scary for other teams to think we are still building this squad. As we work through the rest of midfield for depth and our back four, particularly two world class fullbacks, we are going to be a scary prospect. All very young as well.

Our potential is a key reason why we must make CL this season. Things can change quickly and we need to be able to attract the players to finish the squad.

That first 20min was a glimpse into what lies ahead. Personally, the best 20min I've seen from any team. Well done Mr Rodgers.

Offline Canuck33

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 5-1 AFC
« Reply #165 on: February 11, 2014, 12:49:04 am »
Saturday was a great display of what Rodgers wants to play. I've seen it on paper and some glimpses of it on the pitch. But on Saturday it came all together. We didn't allow them any time to settle on the ball. The pressing game was immense. And in possession we were brave on the ball when deep and pressed by them, no panic passes, no hoofing. The transition from back to front was amazing, blistering, irresistible. And to pull this off with with our thin and injury depleted squad was sheer brilliance.

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 5-1 AFC
« Reply #166 on: February 11, 2014, 01:46:16 am »
This is what I wanted to write about - the transformation of Coutinho into a Centre mid

I'm sure I wasn't alone in being extremely worried about the set up for the game and being dominated in midfield again (as we were at the Emirates) and was really hoping we'd see Allen start as we really haven't performed this year with a midfield 2 (the obvious exception being the derby but I don't think that fixtures helps you learn too much about your team).
However Coutinho made the difference - his pressing, anticipation, guile and strength on the ball were what allowed us to disrupt Arsenal so much more than if he'd been playing further up the pitch.
I remember seeing him live the first time last year and thinking that we'd found our 'david silva' type - but it looks a lot more like we've found our iniesta / modric type
A player who can disrupt the opposition and press really well but then instantly turn defence into attack by carrying the ball or playing a killer pass
(It also explains why we were willing to over look a midfielder in the window and go for a forward/attacking player first as if you count Coutinho as one of a midfield 3 you suddenly have 5 for 3 places)

I think Coutinho will always be okay against a central midfield that likes to get on the ball and dictate play. His problems will be sides that bypass the midfield who are just there to win second balls (Villa) or sides who stick a couple of rugby players in midfield just to stop the opposition playing though them (WBA).

When the opponents CM' like to carry the ball, turn and face you, try to dribble around you, play short passes... then Coutinho is in his element as his acceleration, agility and reading the game are used to their maximum. He also doesn´t need to worry about competing in a game of head tennis, sprinting back at his own goal to chase flick-on/knock downs etc.

Against those sides I wouldn´t play Coutinho in that role. That said, we don't have much options at the moment as Allen isn't really suited to those games either. Maybe go 2-1 in midfield? Fulham are a side geared up to play that way, especially when Mitroglou is available to play with Holtby playing off him and runners like Sidwell & Kvist performing the roles of Delph & Westwood for Villa.

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Offline GrkStav

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 5-1 AFC
« Reply #167 on: February 11, 2014, 02:53:06 am »
The last time you can see Flanagan in the picture, he's 10 yards behind Henderson but only just starting to jog as Henderson begins to accelerate. When Henderson receives the ball, Flanagan isn't within 40 yards and likely coasted to around the halfway line (he was in position if Coutinho checked and knocked the ball wide), knowing that a sharp breakaway like that was more than likely to result in a goal, goal kick, corner or Arsenal possession rather than any slow down and check back by Henderson.

You and others (PoP, JuanLoco) are making excellent points.
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Offline GrkStav

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 5-1 AFC
« Reply #168 on: February 11, 2014, 02:56:18 am »
If Henderson took another touch, and turned with the ball once he was in the box, then Flanagan would have pushed up more to offer the wide support. But we were on the counterattack, so it was important not to get too far forward and create gaps that Arsenal could have hurt us in. The triggers for the players to make their movements were important, and they were probably being observant of those

Fair enough. I also think that Henderson (as I think was said, originally) slowed down just a tad, unsure if the ball was going to get through Gibbs.

As great as Coutinho's pass was, entre-nouz, Gibbs should've deflected it. But our Brazilian (like that other, injured, Brazilian of ours) is good at putting just enough pace on the ball to make defenders miss like that, eh? :-)
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Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 5-1 AFC
« Reply #169 on: February 11, 2014, 03:17:24 am »
Fair enough. I also think that Henderson (as I think was said, originally) slowed down just a tad, unsure if the ball was going to get through Gibbs.

As great as Coutinho's pass was, entre-nouz, Gibbs should've deflected it. But our Brazilian (like that other, injured, Brazilian of ours) is good at putting just enough pace on the ball to make defenders miss like that, eh? :-)

BECAUSE it was great, he couldn't have deflected it. It was the spin and curve, rather than the pace, that made that possible. Not to brag, but that's a PoP special - about the only thing I could do with a ball as a schoolboy player that looked halfway decent. It's all about curving the ball just enough to get it to go around the defenders, but also to fade as it hits the ground and lands in the path of the attacker. The difference, of course, is that Coutinho can probably do that in 1 out of every 3 attempts, whereas I did it in 1 out of every 300 :D
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Offline rickardinho1

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 5-1 AFC
« Reply #170 on: February 11, 2014, 03:26:29 am »
BECAUSE it was great, he couldn't have deflected it. It was the spin and curve, rather than the pace, that made that possible. Not to brag, but that's a PoP special - about the only thing I could do with a ball as a schoolboy player that looked halfway decent. It's all about curving the ball just enough to get it to go around the defenders, but also to fade as it hits the ground and lands in the path of the attacker. The difference, of course, is that Coutinho can probably do that in 1 out of every 3 attempts, whereas I did it in 1 out of every 300 :D

That's some special talent you must have had if the best thing you did only worked 0.3% of the time! lol  :wave

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 5-1 AFC
« Reply #171 on: February 11, 2014, 03:36:39 am »
That's some special talent you must have had if the best thing you did only worked 0.3% of the time! lol  :wave

I didn't say it was the best thing I did. I said it was the only thing I did that LOOKED halfway decent.

I did the boring fundamentals quite well. :P
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Offline SeanAxion

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 5-1 AFC
« Reply #172 on: February 11, 2014, 04:06:56 am »
POP, I know formations are flexible and you may well shoot me down for this but do you not think we've reverted back to 3-5-2 with Gerrard playing the libero? Much like classic Italian teams but with terrifying pace?

I think we have, Sky just haven't got onto it yet. 

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 5-1 AFC
« Reply #173 on: February 11, 2014, 04:18:58 am »
POP, I know formations are flexible and you may well shoot me down for this but do you not think we've reverted back to 3-5-2 with Gerrard playing the libero? Much like classic Italian teams but with terrifying pace?

I think we have, Sky just haven't got onto it yet.

We have and we haven't :D

Our team shape is definitely more 3-4-3 (or 3-4-2-1 to be precise)

But as long as people think we're playing a basic 4-3-3 (with some possible shuffling and funnelling) then that probably suits us fine :D
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Offline woof

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 5-1 AFC
« Reply #174 on: February 11, 2014, 04:24:59 am »
The midfield is functioning better now, I believe, is down to Gerrard being taken out of a more advanced position where his pace (of lack thereof) can be an issue during the attack-defend transition, and put deeper where his strength of being able to ping passes even when he's under pressure. Now, it looks more balance and it becomes such a weapon especially when he can launch counter attacks with precision. To compliment that, Coutinho has also developed more weaponry in his arsenal - he is now Hendo Light, i.e. he does the harrying too.

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 5-1 AFC
« Reply #175 on: February 11, 2014, 04:27:12 am »
Think it was an intriguing game in some aspects to show the tactical development of not just the team but Rodgers also.


The tactical development within the team

After the Everton game Rodgers was pointing out that he'd been using Henderson to the left of the midfield 3 to offer cover for the left-flank with his energy, and allowing Suarez and Sturridge to rotate with who was nominally positioned on the left of the front 3. I think it's beginning to look increasingly obvious that Rodgers is targeting the weaker fullback in possession from the opposition and placing Suarez/Sturridge on his side of the pitch. Sterling, being the best out of possession of the front 3 (I think he's the best at pressing the ball in our entire team to be honest) is placed on the same flank as the fullback who is strongest in possession to stop him getting forward as easily.

Against Everton it was obvious that the player you were happiest to see with the ball going forward was Stones, so you had Suarez/Sturridge on that side of the pitch as the left-sided player, not always tracking him when he went forward, but knowing that mostly Henderson had the energy to get across and that Stones would be far less dangerous with time and space on the ball than Baines on the opposite flank.

Against Arsenal it was the opposite. You wouldn't want Sagna showing up free in our half of the pitch, so you put Sterling against him. Suarez went over to the right, although there was considerably less altering of position between Suarez and Sturridge than in the previous games (but it did happen a few times earlier on in the match). What happened also though, that shows the versatility in the front 5, is that Henderson also swapped flanks along with the striker, again presumably to cover him and to be there to quickly pressure that flank if Suarez is caught out and they try and find their spare man at the back in space.

Basically over the last 3 games we've seen Suarez and Sturridge play all across the front line, Henderson and Coutinho swap sides to compensate for that, and play either side. The only switch we haven't really seen with that five, which I think may come in time, because Rodgers has used him there once or twice before, is the idea of Sterling playing as the central figure in the front 3 for any amount of time. Maybe we won't see him pop up there for fear of leaving two strikers up against their fullbacks if we lose the ball, or maybe Rodgers doesn't think Sterling wouldn't be of great effect there on his own (yet?). I think it would have been interesting though, had we see Sterling drop off into a central area against West Brom for a brief period, just to pick up the ball in and around Yacob after he was booked. He can get freekicks like no one else in our team (considering Suarez's reputation).

Possibly it's simply an issue of in-game management from the player though. It's a very, very young team. And a pretty impulsive one. For the sake of curiosity I had a look at the differences in our midfield's performance over the last 3 games, partly because the burden (as it often seems to) fell on Gerrard's performance for our lack of cohesiveness against West Brom. What struck me was, in terms of touches of the ball and passes (and pass accuracy), that was Gerrard's best game of the 3 on paper, for the kind of 'controller' people are assuming Brendan Rodgers wants. What was interesting is that in that West Brom game, Henderson's passing accuracy was way down on what it has been in the other two games. It was also the one game where Gerrard made more passes than the other two (14 more!) against Everton Coutinho played by greatest amount of passes. At the weekend they were within 4 passes of one and other (keep in mind who was subbed off in each game). To me what went wrong against West Brom, and it's totally understandable, is that neither Coutinho (at 20) and Henderson (at 23) were able to manage the game and bring themselves in to it. Through various stages where it needed one of them to simply pass the ball accurately and take the sting out of the game, neither was capable. Henderson's radar was off and Coutinho was trying to inject pace into the game.

That for me is the next major evolution in terms of the team going forward. It's scary to think how good a midfielder Coutinho will be when he can do that to a game (I think he looks the mostly likely to dictate a game out of him and Henderson, and that's what his role looks more set up for anyways). He appears to have embraced the transformation into an out and out midfielder. Even against West Brom, when he wasn't particularly good, he was simply trying to do the things he had a few days previous, rather than being desperate to score as he has been all season. In consecutive home games he has taken the two brightest hopes of English football and out performed both quite convincingly. His ability to break open lines in the opposition midfield is incredible. But it's ability to genuinely harm a team when he's done so that's frightening. Dembele can dribble past players from the midfield third. Wilshere can dribble past players from the midfield third (although there's been less evidence of that recently). Few players can hurt you quite so badly as Coutinho when he's done it though. His range of passing is scary. Even when his radar is off, he's still finding more accurate through-balls than pretty much anyone (I think he's top 5 in Europe at the moment statistically). He can absolutely kill teams in transitions. He did it to Everton for Sturridge's first, and again at the weekend (and those are just the ones that ended in goals). I actually think he, perhaps more than any other player, encapsulates the perceived move away from 'death by football' - by which people almost certainly mean 'death by possession' - that seems to be the debate now. What I think will change, and can't wait to see over the next season or two, is what happens when this kid develops that innate understanding about when to look to kill a team and when to keep them at arms length with the ball. I'm pretty sure it's what will happen, and I think it was the big difference between our West Brom performance and the other two games. When it comes then we'll start to see the real end game of what a Rodgers team looks like, I think.

Which brings me on to...

The tactical developments from Brendan Rodgers

Counter-attacking or death by football?

We're getting a lot of talk starting now about how he's deviated from his original philosophy of 'Death by Football' (death by possession) and become a counter-attacking manager. I've got qualms with this, personally.

Firstly, I tend to think if a team is dead in the water by half-time, they're pretty fucking dead. Whether it's through passing them to death, or gorilla-fucking them into a level of masochistic subspace only found in Moyes' house when he decides to open the trophy cabinet. Everton and Arsenal both experienced "death by football", if that's what we're going to call it under this manager, like we would have a 'crushing machine' under Rafa. Don't kid yourselves that either phrase means anything deeper than treating the opposition like a Fritzel daughter. It's flat out obliterating the opposition, and making them wish the game was over, and that's what happened.

I don't think the idea that we're a counter-attacking team is fair though. Looking at possession over the course of a game can lead you to come to that conclusion. But respectfully, if you're 3 or 4-nil up within 35 minutes, the game is won and the best way to preserve energy is to shell up and play conservatively. This isn't particularly new to the last few games either by the way. This happened against Stoke and Villa very early on in the season, and drew criticism in performances like Palace at home where we 'tired after half time'. We are the aggressors until we think the game is won. Counter-attacking implies that you set out with the idea of sucking the opposition on to you. We don't do that. We absolutely fucking cane teams in the first half an hour of games. The weekend is the most obvious example, for sure, but we were the team in the ascendency against Everton, we were the ones controlling the games against Villa and Stoke, We were the ones that had Palace, Sunderland, Cardiff, Norwich and West Brom wrapped up before half time.

Rodgers made note of the half-press against Villa early on in the season, and it's tempting to suggest we go back to it a fair bit when we feel the game is already won. Early on in the game though he says we're looking to three-quarter press, which so we're getting higher turnovers in the dangerous thirds of the pitch (or when the opposition have space behind them).

Again though, I wouldn't necessarily call how we're starting games counter-attacking. I'd say it's more based on transitions after the turnover possession. It's arguably quite Germran. Look at Dortmund. They're not a counter-attacking team, but the last few years they're ones that are most dangerous after the ball has been turned over, because that's when an oppositions shape is in chaos and they're eat their most vulnerable. Bayern obviously did it to Barcelona (but also away in Turin IIRC).

The way I'd describe it, whether accurate or not, is that counter-attacking implies a reactive brand of football. We've been anything but reactive these past home games. In fact, the vast majority of both games have been played out in reaction to what we've done to the opposition within the first third of the match.

The defence

This a really interesting one for me, because I'm super-guilty of it myself, especially last summer. I think we've all jumped to conclusions a little early on what we think a Rodgers defence ideally looks like and have ignored that firstly, he's probably still tweaking with that idea of perfection himself, but also, his experiences elsewhere don't tally with it.

I'd completely written off Skrtel. I think there was about a 50/50% split on that if we're being kind. I think everyone had written off Flanagan. I don't mean as a player in general, but as a Rodgers player. I think it was pretty easy too as well. Rodgers early doors spoke of Flanagan's role as not an attacking fullback, which we all assumed he wanted because, eh, Barcelona right? *nudge nudge*. Skrtel struggled terribly first half of the season last year being asked to split wide and do a lot more 1-vs-1 defending. He was out of the team 2nd half of the season, Flanagan I don't think got on the pitch at all last year (the nadir possibly being Swansea in the cup which I think was Henderson and Downing at fullback). Then we looked at the type of players being targeted in defence and the implication seemed to be that after Carragher had comeback in and been a solid stop-gap, we'd be going back to what we assumed was the original plan of basically having incredibly strong 1-vs-1 defenders who were brilliant on the turn. Well we haven't.

A couple of things to say on this really. Firstly it's that one thing that has been reasonably consistent under Rodgers so far is that he only seems to change in answer to a problem. Second half of last season our style of defending wasn't a particular problem compared to the first. The second, more interesting thing, I think, is why did we all assume Rodgers would push such a high defensive line and play 1-vs-1 defending with loads of space in the first place?

Swansea didn't do this. Yes, their centerbacks split and saw a lot of the ball. But Swansea didn't leave a lot of room in behind themselves. They didn't leave Caulker or Williams isolated too often. They also didn't press really high up the pitch, which is something we also haven't done very often under Rodgers (compared to say a Barcelona, Southampton or Villas-Boas team who push the defensive line right up).

I had this conversation with Royhendo a couple of months back, that maybe Rodgers' ideal defence isn't so much like Barcelona than it is a Mourinho team. The summer was spent looking for an increased physicality a the back and looking for 'men' as Rodgers put it. We swapped out a keeper in Reina who was, at his best, very sharp off his line and sweeping up in behind (like Lloris is for Spurs) and replaced him with a brilliant shot-stopper who doesn't come out and look to win the ball very often at all. He's brought Skrtel back into the team because he kicks it and clears it and is a pessimistic defender. He's gone from not rating Flanagan at all to him probably being a starter even when everyone's fit, it's just a question of on which flank. A question to ask would be whether this is Rodgers adapting to the players at hand or what he genuinely prefers from his defenders. I think it's perhaps too early into his career to tell given he hasn't stayed more than two seasons at a single club. Certainly the idea of defending deeper, with more traditional fullbacks has benefited Flanagan massively, and Cissokho, whose defensively solidity is apparent during this run of games when it wasn't when he was asked to play at wingback. Skrtel, who I'm not a huge an of, is also playing brilliantly at the moment in a settled defence. The fun narrative is the idea that he's been better since he got stapled up, but I thought he had a good 2nd half against Villa too. The longer-term question is - if we are going to sit in as a defence - whether anything has changed with his ability to deal with the more physically imposing strikers. You'd think if we're going to have sit-in and have a goalkeeper that doesn't come for crosses, that the two centerbacks would have to be solid as rocks when it comes to dealing with aerial bombardments and balls up to the big man.

The idea of sitting in as a defence certainly seems to suit the team in general though, and it's very Mourinho. If you look at his first spell at Chelsea, when Rodgers was there, both fullbacks were fairly orthodox. Ferrera especially and he'd probably have said Gallas was his best left back in the two title winning seasons. I think the thing they had in that defence that was exceptional, that I think we look to have replicated in a slightly different way with Steven Gerrard (and hopefully Sakho when he comes back in) was Carvalho. Carvalho could've played centerback anywhere in the world. He could've gone to Barcelona and defended on the half way line with the greatest of ease. But at Chelsea when he could beat an attacker to the ball he would set them off on their counter-attacks in the same way that Gerrard's passes are doing now when the ball is turned over deep. It was a key feature against Everton that we would take the risk to play out through their first phase of pressure in the turnover and then look to move the ball quickly and punish them. It was apparent again on Saturday, especially in the key period in the game between 1-0 and 3-0, where Gerrard just physically locked down that area in front of our defence, got in far sharper than any Arsenal player and then looked to start the counter-attack. I think Sakho definitely has that ability to his game playing at centerback (and there were supposedly doubts about his ability on the turn anyway?) and even Skrtel has shown it occasionally, especially in the build up to penalty against Everton. Flanagan is also really good at this. That idea of being a rash on a player and pressuring them off the ball before they can get turned, then playing the smart pass to a player facing forward in space straight afterwards.


Again, like Coutinho's development in terms of 'managing' the game on the pitch over the next season or two, this I think will be really interesting to watch over the next season or so. Is Rodgers using the players at his disposal in the best possible way (not just the defenders, because he wouldn't defend this way if he didn't think it suited the way Gerrard, Coutinho, Henderson, Sterling, Suarez and Sturridge all want to play) or is the long-game still the idea of fullbacks who are basically wingers, centerbacks playing as wide as fullbacks, and a 'controller' in the Leon Britton mode who touches and passes the ball more than anyone else (rather than Gerrard who in the better performances sees less of the ball than the two ahead of him, arguably like Barca ;))

Either way, after the weekend, and the Everton game, and plenty of others this season, it no longer feels like the Rodgers end game is years down the line. The picture of what we're going to look like is starting to look clearer, although not crystal yet. But at least we'll probably see it coming, which is more than teams coming to Anfield get at the moment.
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Offline Livo.85

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 5-1 AFC
« Reply #176 on: February 11, 2014, 05:46:45 am »
Fantastic analysis from Juan Loco.

A must read!  :wave

Offline woof

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 5-1 AFC
« Reply #177 on: February 11, 2014, 06:27:26 am »
Great analysis, Juan.

I believe we are doing better at defence after the Villa game when BR made us play deeper. The difference is Gerrard also got deeper and was able to launch attacks. Against Villa, he was harassed when Coutinho should have helped him out by offering himself for the pass. Against Arsenal, Coutinho dropped to the centre to pick up possession and from there, got through balls to the forward line. What it's not mentioned is the speed in which the ball was moved. It was fast. And that should be the way football is played before the opposition's defence has time to set up. That works very well against teams which are bent on attacking. I'm not sure if that can work against Mou's Chelsea or Fat Sam's West Ham.

It may be more tricky against Fulham if they are going to be defensive, i.e. playing 2 banks of 4. Fortunately, we have someone like Suarez who can pick defences apart

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 5-1 AFC
« Reply #178 on: February 11, 2014, 06:54:03 am »

 It's scary to think how good a midfielder Coutinho will be when he can do that to a game (I think he looks the mostly likely to dictate a game out of him and Henderson, and that's what his role looks more set up for anyways). He appears to have embraced the transformation into an out and out midfielder.


Great Post, Learnt a lot but what do you mean by this?

We're never going to see him as part of a midfield two are we? You see him turning into someone like modric with more assists?
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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 5-1 AFC
« Reply #179 on: February 11, 2014, 08:10:29 am »
I'm pretty sure every outfield player except Gerrard had a good effort on goal on Saturday.  That is bloody amazing against any Arsenal team, let alone a top of the table Arsenal.

Somebody please remind me of a Gerrard chance!!?

:)

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 5-1 AFC
« Reply #180 on: February 11, 2014, 09:40:16 am »
Amidst of all the praise given to the likes of Coutinho, Gerrard, Henderson, Sterling and Skrtel, Toure's awesome pass for the goal has gone under the radar.

Great comeback performance after a colossal mistake in the last match. Deserves credit for bouncing back so quickly and leading the way.

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 5-1 AFC
« Reply #181 on: February 11, 2014, 02:01:16 pm »
That's a monumental piece of analysis J.L, congratulations.

I agree with so much of what you say, and learned a lot too. Just been listening to Mourinho talking about Brendan. He obviously rates the job he's doing. I suspect what we are witnessing is a manager with so much open-mindedness and flexibility, that shibboleths are no longer part of the planning. Not so much football pragmatism as recognition that ideology - any ideology - can be counter-productive when it prevents a coaching staff getting the best out of what's available, injuries and form taken account of.

And that is what is so impressive.
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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 5-1 AFC
« Reply #182 on: February 11, 2014, 02:13:00 pm »
Great Post, Learnt a lot but what do you mean by this?

We're never going to see him as part of a midfield two are we? You see him turning into someone like modric with more assists?

Prior to Everton I'd always have described him as an attacker. The last three games with the defensive duties he's been given and excelled at. I'd call that a CM rather than AM. There were plenty of times where Henderson bombed forward and Coutinho dropped deep in a way that could be described as part of a two.
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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 5-1 AFC
« Reply #183 on: February 11, 2014, 02:58:17 pm »
Stuff
Brilliant. And I think that the Dortmund comparison is perfect. Dortmund, at their best, are not a reactive side - they're actually very aggressive. We're basically doing the same thing as Dortmund do, and it suits our best players. I expect us to become more versatile over time though, like Bayern were last season under Heynckes, once Rodgers has added more of the nifty possession-type players to our squad, whether from within or without.

But for now, I am happy to see us playing in the style of Dortmund, with the key difference being that we score crazy numbers of goals!

Offline steveeastend

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 5-1 AFC
« Reply #184 on: February 11, 2014, 02:59:49 pm »


But for now, I am happy to see us playing in the style of Dortmund, with the key difference being that we score crazy numbers of goals!

We are not playing in the style of Dortmund though.
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline rscanderlech

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 5-1 AFC
« Reply #185 on: February 11, 2014, 03:08:59 pm »
We are not playing in the style of Dortmund though.
In terms of being very aggressive about winning the ball and subsequently getting into scoring positions really quickly before the opposition can organise. In the 'arguably quite German' sense that Juan Loco refers to. That's what we've done versus Everton and Arsenal, who are both possession teams and were simply unable to play the way that they would have wanted to play as a result.

Offline steveeastend

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 5-1 AFC
« Reply #186 on: February 11, 2014, 03:13:20 pm »
In terms of being very aggressive about winning the ball and subsequently getting into scoring positions really quickly before the opposition can organise. In the 'arguably quite German' sense that Juan Loco refers to.

Half the teams in europe play pressing now, Barca started it and it's hardly a german thing. In terms of getting into scoring positions early that's not only happening in a counter attacking sense here, it does, but far from being our overall style of play. Dortmund plays like that only, without any Plan B,we, in contrast, are able to vary our game in a lot of ways, are able to play far mature and are growing as a complete football team. To me it looks more Brasilian or LFC twenty years ago, but Dortmund? Nah, they are far too one dimensional which is the reason why they fell back this season.
« Last Edit: February 11, 2014, 03:18:59 pm by steveeastend »
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline rscanderlech

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 5-1 AFC
« Reply #187 on: February 11, 2014, 03:17:36 pm »
Half the teams in europe play pressing now, Barca started it and it's hardly a german thing. In terms of getting into scoring positions early that's not only happening in a counter attacking sense here, it does, but far from being our overall style of play. Dortmund plays like that only, without any Plan B,  we, in contrast, are able to vary our game in a lot of ways, are able to play far mature and are growing as a complete football team. To me it looks more Brasilian or LFC twenty years ago, but Dortmund? Nah, they are far too one dimensional which is the reason why they fell back this season.
Oh I agree that we're more versatile, but this has been the salient feature of a couple of our recent performances and it's the reason that we've obliterated two teams that we otherwise might have had a much more even game against. Don't read too much into the Dortmund comparison, since, as you suggest, we've definitely been playing a more expansive game than that over the course of the season. In fact, you're probably right in comparing it to the (first) Dalglish period.

Offline steveeastend

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 5-1 AFC
« Reply #188 on: February 11, 2014, 03:21:32 pm »
Oh I agree that we're more versatile, but this has been the salient feature of a couple of our recent performances and it's the reason that we've obliterated two teams that we otherwise might have had a much more even game against. Don't read too much into the Dortmund comparison, since, as you suggest, we've definitely been playing a more expansive game than that over the course of the season. In fact, you're probably right in comparing it to the (first) Dalglish period.

I think that's a very important point and people are not aware of this yet. We do play complete football, he, Rodgers is building something remarkable here, a mixture of a lot of styles which he put together after years of learning from the best. For that, Rodgers is the better manager compared to Klopp, his approach to football is way more complete, offers way more aspects of the game because he learnt from a lot of different types of manager. He speaks several (football) languages and is familiar with a lot of styles in football from first hand experience. Klopp has been brought up in Germany only, can only speak and think one (football) language.
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline fowlermagic

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 5-1 AFC
« Reply #189 on: February 11, 2014, 04:18:14 pm »
What a great day as watched us thrash the Arze and then saw Ireland put the Welsh to the swords a couple of hours later. Could not be a better day really as we came out of the traps so quick I am glad I found my bar stool in time for kick off. Skrtel was magnificent and thought he slide into Row z if he could for his celebrations. Sterling really is blossoming the past couple of months and has maybe become our most dangerous man after Suarez as his ability to scare the defense with his speed / decision making is surely making him the fave for Young Player of the Year. Sturridge is having one hell of a season 15 starts in the league 15 goals which is Suarez like tallies and that says it all. Suarez feck it what can I add to whatever has been said about him, 23 goals 8 assists and numerous efforts that have hit posts, crossbars and hit fingertips that have led goalies thinking that may be the save of the season there. Coutinho has stepped up to the plate in terms of dictating the central midfield assuming SG's role in putting oppositions on their back heels with his passing ability. Not bad as he is the attacking version of Alonso I guess in terms of our metronome as the clock of the engine is ticking nicely right now.

Well done lads, great result ....now forget every thing as the work starts now as we get feck all for one brilliant performance.
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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 5-1 AFC
« Reply #190 on: February 11, 2014, 05:21:26 pm »
Two points:

1. Juan Loco ought to include pics, gifs and diagrams in his learned and insightful analyses.

2. PoP ought to get back to providing complete tactical analyses, together with historical/comparative analyses, interspersed with humorous anecdotes. And all "on time, and attractively priced (at ZERO)",

Lazy bums, the both of them.

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Offline fowler9_god

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 5-1 AFC
« Reply #191 on: February 11, 2014, 05:43:56 pm »
Fucking brilliant Juan.
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Offline gregorio

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 5-1 AFC
« Reply #192 on: February 11, 2014, 07:39:26 pm »
What a great day as watched us thrash the Arze and then saw Ireland put the Welsh to the swords a couple of hours later.

This is a football thread mate
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Offline No666

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 5-1 AFC
« Reply #193 on: February 11, 2014, 07:54:18 pm »

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 5-1 AFC
« Reply #194 on: February 11, 2014, 09:46:18 pm »
I still haven't got over it. We've had big results before,  but this just felt a bit different. There's a few factors involved, but that was quite frightening. Is it frightening that we can turn it on when we'd all like to turn it on?

I'm one of those quilts that you see on here ocassionly, chewing nails thinking the worst - well, not the worst..., but we would have taken a point probably before the game wouldn't we? I would have but I'm like that. Oooh Arsenal are in town,  how can our defence cope?

As usual, you just hope we can outscore them because they'll make inroads. On paper, our back 5 v their front wasn't going to cope was it? A plucky draw, maybe a sneaky win, but more likely, a philosophical reflection beckoned whereby we continued to nod to each other about squad depth and defensive frailties. and can we still hold on for 4th?

.But we decimated that team so profoundly that we have 1) finally ended their dreams of a title, and 2) awakened the dark horse of ours... in 20 minutes of football.

And those 20 minutes... how do you explain that?

I wat ched it in a pub that had  the game on silent. I was on my own bar a number of people eating lunch in princess Diana's local... and I turned about 40 heads watching Mignolet needlessly punching with some kind of scream. We were 1-0 up... it could have turned.  But it didn't and we went and got another. I think I saw that goal before it happened. . Was weird.

I really needed that 3rd (in truth, I needed the 5th) tho. It was so good to watch.

So many good words written about this game but can we please just remember to go out and beat Fulham?  Fair enough. .. tweet a celebratory photo.. but dont forget to follow it up lads.

Offline wige

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 5-1 AFC
« Reply #195 on: February 11, 2014, 10:18:29 pm »

Firstly, I tend to think if a team is dead in the water by half-time, they're pretty fucking dead. Whether it's through passing them to death, or gorilla-fucking them into a level of masochistic subspace only found in Moyes' house when he decides to open the trophy cabinet. Everton and Arsenal both experienced "death by football", if that's what we're going to call it under this manager, like we would have a 'crushing machine' under Rafa. Don't kid yourselves that either phrase means anything deeper than treating the opposition like a Fritzel daughter. It's flat out obliterating the opposition, and making them wish the game was over, and that's what happened.

The whole piece was fantstic, but what a paragraph that is..

Offline fowlermagic

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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 5-1 AFC
« Reply #196 on: February 12, 2014, 12:25:57 am »
This is a football thread mate

Yeah tell that to E2K and his rugby quips in his great post ...cmon the Reds unless you are from Wales :p
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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 5-1 AFC
« Reply #197 on: February 12, 2014, 02:50:53 am »
1)
Suárez would be Bergkamp 2.0 with more pace, power, determination, aggression & nutmegs.

Waaay more nutmegs.
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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 5-1 AFC
« Reply #198 on: February 12, 2014, 07:37:16 am »
What a fantastic post from Juan Loco. I think I'll read that a few times just to take it all in.
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Re: RAWK Round Table LFC 5-1 AFC
« Reply #199 on: February 12, 2014, 07:43:27 am »
What a fantastic post from Juan Loco. I think I'll read that a few times just to take it all in.

Yeah. An exceptional post. What impressed me the most was JL's determination to understand and make sense of what has been taking place in front of all our eyes. Very impressive indeed....

...If only he'd have applied a corresponding diligence and insight in his efforts to grasp the mysteries of Lost we'd all have been in a far more serene place. but alas he simply gave up the ghost. Literally.

 ;D