Author Topic: RAWK Round Table Man City 2-1 Liverpool  (Read 16372 times)

Offline Jetmir M.

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Re: RAWK Round Table Man City 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #40 on: December 27, 2013, 11:40:48 pm »



The question for me is do we allow Skrtel and Sakho the time to get used to each other or do we need to make changes because at times they are defending in completely different ways.


That pic right there.. while you argue he made a terrific last-ditch tackle on Negredo, to me it seems Srktel was guilty Negredo was played in, in the first place. As that pic shows City players were outnumbered in that possession. Fernandinho had Johnson coming to challenge him from his left, while Sakho was doing the same from his right, then behind him there was Lucas and Allen. Navas was well covered by Cissokho, so to me it is quite simple really, Skrtel's only worry on that play should be Negredo, as he was the only option for Fernandinho. Instead he decides to try and close down Fernandinho, which leaves Negredo completely unmarked and a simple ball puts him through on goal. Admittedly he does brilliantly to recover from that, and that shot block was crucial.

Then he does the exact same thing again for their second goal, only this time we pay the price!



In this picture he is perfectly positioned to cover ground. Instead of just backing off a bit, and let Sakho try to deal with Silva as well as keeping an eye on Negredo's run (while still being in position to challenge Silva in case Sakho can't) he decides to run straight to Silva as Sakho was already doing the same, he then points the finger towards Negredo for Sakho to mark him, which was too late by the time Silva released the ball.

Imo this is very poor decision making / lack of communication.

I think he's trying to be aggressive, but that aggressiveness has cost us goals this season (including the silly free kicks he gives away around the box. Newcastle's second goal comes off the top of my head).

Offline heylookitsjacob

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Re: RAWK Round Table Man City 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #41 on: December 27, 2013, 11:47:46 pm »
That pic right there.. while you argue he made a terrific last-ditch tackle on Negredo, to me it seems Srktel was guilty Negredo was played in, in the first place.  Fernandinho had Johnson coming to challenge him from his left, while Sakho was doing the same from his right, then behind him there was Lucas and Allen.



In this picture he is perfectly positioned to cover ground. Instead of just backing off a bit, and let Sakho try to deal with Silva as well as keeping an eye on Negredo's run (while still being in position to challenge Silva in case Sakho can't) he decides to run straight to Silva as Sakho was already doing the same, he then points the finger towards Negredo for Sakho to mark him, which was too late by the time Silva released the ball.

Think your analysis of johnson's ability to actually challenge (first bolded statement) fernandinho in the first pic is well off the mark. Fernandinho drove right into Skrtl. Not sure what he is supposed to do other than challenge & recover.

In the second pic; it wasn't Silva, it was Navas. Sahko is behind Navas, there is no way ever that sahko would be able to close him down. No way.

I'm no PoP, but pretty basic observations tell me Skrtl was in two tough really situations and I'm not sure if he made bad decisions.




Offline ANFIELDGATES

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Re: RAWK Round Table Man City 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #42 on: December 27, 2013, 11:53:45 pm »
That pic right there.. while you argue he made a terrific last-ditch tackle on Negredo, to me it seems Srktel was guilty Negredo was played in, in the first place. As that pic shows City players were outnumbered in that possession. Fernandinho had Johnson coming to challenge him from his left, while Sakho was doing the same from his right, then behind him there was Lucas and Allen. Navas was well covered by Cissokho, so to me it is quite simple really, Skrtel's only worry on that play should be Negredo, as he was the only option for Fernandinho. Instead he decides to try and close down Fernandinho, which leaves Negredo completely unmarked and a simple ball puts him through on goal. Admittedly he does brilliantly to recover from that, and that shot block was crucial.

Then he does the exact same thing again for their second goal, only this time we pay the price!



In this picture he is perfectly positioned to cover ground. Instead of just backing off a bit, and let Sakho try to deal with Silva as well as keeping an eye on Negredo's run (while still being in position to challenge Silva in case Sakho can't) he decides to run straight to Silva as Sakho was already doing the same, he then points the finger towards Negredo for Sakho to mark him, which was too late by the time Silva released the ball.

Imo this is very poor decision making / lack of communication.

I think he's trying to be aggressive, but that aggressiveness has cost us goals this season (including the silly free kicks he gives away around the box. Newcastle's second goal comes off the top of my head).
agree with second comment but not first,in the first picture,skrtel has to close down the ball,u never back off to the egde of the box,close down the space and then jockey the player on the ball,u have to put the player with the ball under pressure,otherwise ur allowing him to pick his moment to do his thing.as for second pic,i think sakho should have shown silva down the line ,his positional play allowed too many options for the man on the ball,pressing is done to stop a player dictating what he wants to do rather than the pressing player putting him under pressure to release it too quickly.

Offline Jetmir M.

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Re: RAWK Round Table Man City 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #43 on: December 28, 2013, 12:04:24 am »
Think your analysis of johnson's ability to actually challenge (first bolded statement) fernandinho in the first pic is well off the mark. Fernandinho drove right into Skrtl. Not sure what he is supposed to do other than challenge & recover.

In the second pic; it wasn't Silva, it was Navas. Sahko is behind Navas, there is no way ever that sahko would be able to close him down. No way.

I'm no PoP, but pretty basic observations tell me Skrtl was in two tough really situations and I'm not sure if he made bad decisions.

What i meant from the first pic is that Skrtel should've worried more about Negredo's run, if he marked Negredo properly then Fernandinho would have no other option but to continue his run, which would've given Johnson/Sakho (depending on the direction of his run) more time to close him down, unless Fernandinho did a Cristiano Ronaldo-lik sprint on goal.

Second picture.. well, even if you are caught 2 on 1, you never attack the ball, as a simple pass will take you out of the game. What I said is Skrtel should've been more patient and try and read the game a bit better, as there was no way he was gonna close Navas down before he played that ball through. If he stood his ground and had an eye on Negredo, im quite confident Navas options would've been limited, as Sakho was not that far from him, and too far on the right to use his pace and go through on goal.

Offline Gerry83

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Re: RAWK Round Table Man City 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #44 on: December 28, 2013, 12:11:18 am »
Looking at those pics i think the main problem is collective rather than individual. Our two CBs are in a straight vertical line rather than horizontally across the pitch. That makes it easy for them to get in. Id actually question Sakhos positioning in both as well as poor decision making from Skrtel to close down Navas and leave the space, allowing Negredo in!

I agree with BRs comments that we needed to control the game better at 1-1 going into half time. We were given ample warning as city had already broke down the pitch once or twice from corners.We had 9 players up the field nearly so it was no wonder it took them 1 or 2 passes to unlock us from one end of the pitch to the other! Our corners are notoriously shite and i think the coaching staff missed a trick and should have told the lads not to pump it into their box, given a) their aerial presence vs ours and b) their speed on the counter. We should have played short and got Suarez turning on the edge of their box. The few times we did that from a throw we caused them trouble (eg Lescott coming through the back of Suarez etc). Hopefully some lessons have been learnt from the performance though, which was great aside from the overall result.

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Re: RAWK Round Table Man City 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #45 on: December 28, 2013, 12:28:50 am »
That's nothing to do with tactics. That's just habit. A lot of defenders do it. His biggest problem is he doesn't compete for headers. That is almost as bad as giving a free header.
I think that Skrytel is not that strong.
Everytime you will se Kompany with his huge arms against Skyt, he is like PINNED.
If I was Skyt, I will whack Kompany's arms downwards. That should tilted him enough to get to the ball.  :)

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Offline BreakfastPercy

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Re: RAWK Round Table Man City 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #46 on: December 28, 2013, 02:41:04 am »
We played well against City last season but to me it felt like a glimpse of what we could be, a brittle bunch of ideologues with a never-ending stretch of work in front of us.

This time though, we were playing within our capabilities. It wasn't really that surprising, and it felt like something secure and repeatable. They were worried before the game, and we spent the full 90 rattling them til their joints squeaked. We've now got Chelsea fans saying they'll take a point before the game at the Bridge!

We've tried to track and validate our progress. We pointed to Steve Peters and and the Dortmund model and this and that and how it would all come together, not really knowing if it would. It's here. It's here boys and girls, and everyone in the league knows it.

Offline heylookitsjacob

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Re: RAWK Round Table Man City 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #47 on: December 28, 2013, 02:55:57 am »
What i meant from the first pic is that Skrtel should've worried more about Negredo's run, if he marked Negredo properly then Fernandinho would have no other option but to continue his run, which would've given Johnson/Sakho (depending on the direction of his run) more time to close him down, unless Fernandinho did a Cristiano Ronaldo-lik sprint on goal.

Second picture.. well, even if you are caught 2 on 1, you never attack the ball, as a simple pass will take you out of the game. What I said is Skrtel should've been more patient and try and read the game a bit better, as there was no way he was gonna close Navas down before he played that ball through. If he stood his ground and had an eye on Negredo, im quite confident Navas options would've been limited, as Sakho was not that far from him, and too far on the right to use his pace and go through on goal.

Thanks for your response. Agree to disagree though. I appreciate your belief that sahko could close down Navas in the 2nd picture and that johnson would be able to close down fernandinho in the first picture. I like your confidence!

Offline mrantarctica

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Re: RAWK Round Table Man City 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #48 on: December 28, 2013, 03:29:10 am »




Think your analysis of johnson's ability to actually challenge (first bolded statement) fernandinho in the first pic is well off the mark. Fernandinho drove right into Skrtl. Not sure what he is supposed to do other than challenge & recover.

In the second pic; it wasn't Silva, it was Navas. Sahko is behind Navas, there is no way ever that sahko would be able to close him down. No way.

I'm no PoP, but pretty basic observations tell me Skrtl was in two tough really situations and I'm not sure if he made bad decisions.

Navas is on the ball and Negredo is just making a typical strikers run in a 2 vs 1, lining up with the last man. There's no doubt someone needs to close down the player with the ball, and Sakho is actually the closer of the two. Skertl made the call that Sakho wasn't going to get there and gambled on the delivery being off or Negredo having a poor touch, which is an extremely risky gamble to rake against world class players. It was an accurate pass and Negredo did the rest. Simple 2 vs 1 goal.

There's an argument to be made for delaying I think. Navas is only just past halfway, he's not going to shoot from 40 yards and beat Mignolet so Skertl probably had more time than he thought. Players have moments to weigh this up and make a decision. Skertl made his choices and they scored, albeit through an unfortunate piece of keeping.

There are other arguments to be made too, like why is Skertl so deep?? We are their box and Skertl is in the middle of our half. Sakho was tracking Negredo but who knows what Skertl is doing and nobody has tracked Navas because Cissokho was attacking. Our recovery in the middle of the park in the lead up was pretty awful too. Then there's Negredo's shot which looked to be going over anyway.

It's actually a comical goal because our defensive posture there looked to be truly awful yet the most expensive team on the planet nearly didn't score at all.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2013, 03:46:48 am by mrantarctica »

Offline heylookitsjacob

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Re: RAWK Round Table Man City 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #49 on: December 28, 2013, 04:19:26 am »
Navas is on the ball and Negredo is just making a typical strikers run in a 2 vs 1, lining up with the last man. There's no doubt someone needs to close down the player with the ball, and Sakho is actually the closer of the two. Skertl made the call that Sakho wasn't going to get there and gambled on the delivery being off or Negredo having a poor touch, which is an extremely risky gamble to rake against world class players. It was an accurate pass and Negredo did the rest. Simple 2 vs 1 goal.

Did anyone see Navas run? Sahko is never going to be able to close him down in this situation.

There are other arguments to be made too, like why is Skertl so deep??

He is so deep! He's 10 yards deeper than sahko! I didn't realize the great distance between them.

Offline plskikme

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Re: RAWK Round Table Man City 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #50 on: December 28, 2013, 05:35:04 am »




Imo this is very poor decision making / lack of communication.

What this picture does not show is that Sakho was almost touch tight with Negredo until the ball bypassed both of them on it's way to Navas. Unlike NEgredo, who immediately turned and made a run in behind, knowing Navas was about to get the ball. Sakho was drawn a few steps towards the ball, which gave Negredo a crucial headstart. Skrtel, who could see everything happening in front of him, probably saw Sakho marking Negredo until that crucial turn, hence made the decision to step up toward Navas. All this happened in an instant so it's hard to say it was poor decision making.

Whether Skrtel should have been higher up or whether Sakho could have kept pace with Negredo after accelerating from a turn is open for debate though I personally feel had Skrtel been level with Sakho and Negredo it would have given Navas a free run on goal with that kind of pace to burn. (see 1:27 in the following video)


Here is a good video illustrating my points. The play in question is around the 1:25 mark.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=g-__fXDsnKM

IMO, seeing that more and more people are agreeing set pieces is our Achilles Heel, I'm surprised more people didn't pick up on Al's pictures on the first page.




The onus on Sakho to yet again double mark two men on the far post made me do a double take, but it seems like Henderson lost his man (Yaya?) who found his way behind Sakho and his man, whom admittedly didn't cover himself in glory on that play either. Skrtel gets all the stick, but Yaya could easily have turned it in at the back stick.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2013, 05:41:22 am by plskikme »

Offline woof

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Re: RAWK Round Table Man City 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #51 on: December 28, 2013, 05:51:23 am »
It's infuriating because the team played well enough and certainly didn't deserve to lose.

A few points I hope BR will take note and implement:
- Get Mig to come off his line to punch ball away or catch it for heaven's sake
- Skrtel needs to stop wrestling with the players but instead attack the ball
- Have the midfielders help out Sakho to bring the ball out of defence and do it quickly like we did in the first half

Offline kred

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Re: RAWK Round Table Man City 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #52 on: December 28, 2013, 07:02:30 am »
A good game, albeit lower in intensity than Spurs' one, maybe just being cautious.  The MF didn't close down City faster when losing the ball,  but maybe standing off a bit facing the big technical players.  We still need a leader in defense. 
{P/S:  Thought that if we really have played without giving this much respect, crank it up, we could have caused them much more pain in MF & the third.}

Coutinho passes accurately but shoots off the mark.  Maybe he has been trying too hard to shoot for goals.  He should instead just "pass" it into the net. 
« Last Edit: December 28, 2013, 07:12:17 am by kred »

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Re: RAWK Round Table Man City 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #53 on: December 28, 2013, 10:59:31 am »
My match review for Anfield Index http://anfieldindex.com/6951/manchester-city-2-1-liverpool-match-review.html

It's a bit long (4,000 words) but hope you enjoy it.
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Offline mrantarctica

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Re: RAWK Round Table Man City 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #54 on: December 28, 2013, 11:06:17 am »

Coutinho passes accurately but shoots off the mark.  Maybe he has been trying too hard to shoot for goals.  He should instead just "pass" it into the net.

He tried this and his shot ended up too close to Hart who made a great low save. He's just been unlucky. He's a very very good technical player who won't miss too many chances. Young players do get excited in front of goal. He just needs that extra bit of maturity and composure to really put his shots in the right place. This will come with time and experience. Same with Sterling.

Offline Tony19:6

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Re: RAWK Round Table Man City 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #55 on: December 28, 2013, 11:33:33 am »
My match review for Anfield Index http://anfieldindex.com/6951/manchester-city-2-1-liverpool-match-review.html

It's a bit long (4,000 words) but hope you enjoy it.

Great read that - thanks.
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Offline TheDarkKnight

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Re: RAWK Round Table Man City 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #56 on: December 28, 2013, 11:50:12 am »
Not often you can take away so many positives following a defeat as we did at Manchester City. Unfortunate not to get a point (or more) against a fantastic football team with an obscenely good record at home. Two points I'd like to make:

Raheem Sterling - he produced his best performance yet in a big game. Showed no fear, always a threat on the ball and, just as significantly, off it, due to his excellent runs (be they in behind their defence, across it or out wide). Not a full-back myself but I bet they absolutely hate coming up against someone with Sterling's skillset. There are wingers like Downing who rarely push forward with the ball instead opting for a safe pass, which allows the defence to organise itself. Then someone like Townsend who you know nine times out of ten is going to run at you and try to fashion a shot on goal for himself. Sterling though is quite unpredictable, he can run in to the middle, pick the ball up and play a lovely through ball, can run at you on the outside and generally times his runs in to space perfectly. He's been a real breath of fresh air and will only get better. I hope the people who were calling for him to be dropped after Hull learn a lesson from that stupidity.

Suarez, Sterling, Coutinho and Henderson in tandem - ... is a joy to watch isn't it? They're all on the same wavelength. All are flexible and given the freedom to interchange as well as interplay in tight areas which can cause confusion for opposition players tasked with marking them. Some of the moves that these lads pulled off at the home of the strongest team in the league were nothing short of breathtaking. Any team who gives them a reasonable amount of space in behind is asking for trouble, but if teams sit back the likes of Suarez and Coutinho are more than capable of unlocking them. Just no ideal way of playing against this foursome as they all offer different things in abundance.

Now obviously our weakness is in defence and that's ultimately what cost us on Thursday. Skrtel's marking of Kompany for their first goal was lame as fuck. Sakho was very good again bar a short spell of erratic passing except for his part in their second goal when he stepped up whilst they were counter-attacking. Mignolet obviously gets some blame for that goal, too, but has done enough so far to suggest he won't make calamitous errors on a regular basis like seemingly many of the Premier League's crop of 'keepers do thesedays.

Play like that in the other big games and we'll be nailed on for top four I reckon. Still a long way to go, but the signs are good.

Offline Livo.85

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Re: RAWK Round Table Man City 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #57 on: December 28, 2013, 12:04:04 pm »
My match review for Anfield Index http://anfieldindex.com/6951/manchester-city-2-1-liverpool-match-review.html

It's a bit long (4,000 words) but hope you enjoy it.
Wasn't expecting a critical look at Lucas' performance.
Not sure if I agree 100% with you but certainly merits discussion.

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Re: RAWK Round Table Man City 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #58 on: December 28, 2013, 12:12:18 pm »
Lots of photies and posts going over the same situation, hey ho, I'll try and offer something different....

First half - we took a lot of pressure from city, they double teamed and worked well to create space in and behind our full backs and at times, they worked it through the middle, interestingly only on the counters did going through our middle, did their play come off(in my mind). However all this 'slick' (quote from a red next to me) play by city going forward, gave us, loads of space to work with, and as the first half wore on, city became edgy as they were worried about us, it was quite evident. Sterling, Allan, The Count and Henderson always appearing when city just didn't want them to and Suarez, whilst working hard, was always taking 2 and sometimes 3 players with him, this for me was quite plainly more by design than pure luck - It gave us the space to play in and as city tried to move forward they were caught in two minds.

The goal, the Hart save, the ridiculous off-side decision and a few more close calls putting city in that rock and a hard place on how to play us. City, for me were gifted two goals, our defending, whilst last ditch-ish, was proving resilient, however, a bit more of a shoulder from Skrtel and the avoidance of what can only be described as a howler from Mignolet and we go into the half-time 1-0 up, should of been 2(c*nt of a linesman), but 1 would of done.

City are very good, lets make no mistakes about it, but, so are we, in fact, the feel from city fans which started off as a carnival, soon turned to "shit!" once we got our! game going.
We played them to a tee, we knew they'd come at us and they would afford us space(well played Bren for getting onto this) and in the main, the first half was at the very least a 1-0 lead to us on the morale side.


Second half - Soon as the second half kicked off, there was quiet a change to the make-up of the game, city were sitting deeper, their mid-field were staying tighter to the their back four, subsequently not allowing us the space to play we'd had in the first. They seemed to not to go for the quick counter attack. A good move on their behalf, but it said one thing to me, they had changed their system to accommodate us! How many teams this season will be given that amount of thought I wonder?

Anyway, we should of at least took a point from the game, the Johnson pause and miss-control and the Sterling gaping goal being the two stand out chances. City had their share but they were generally half chances(far away so didn't seem that close) Interestingly - Negredo tried another lob-shot in the second half, he must of thought he had this art sussed, pity he hadn't realised Mignolet had learned to catch a ball at half-time.

This game says more abar us, than it does abar anything else. We are a force to reckoned with. Give us space and we'll get through you, sit deep(second-half) and we'll fashion a chance or two - Start believing people, we a very good team.

As a team, we are nearly there, we just have to cut out the individual errors. both in defence, mid-field and attack. The big thing for me is how now, the system is key. Our style, our mentality and our approach is based around our system and ethos, not by the individuals we have in the team, they do effect it of course, Suarez most notably, but the system is the king.

Long live the King!


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Offline Our No.9 never dives

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Re: RAWK Round Table Man City 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #59 on: December 28, 2013, 01:12:25 pm »

Thought we put a very good attacking performance.

Sterling, Henderson, Coutinho and Suarez kept all finding each other in the final tjird.

Only bad thing is Sterling, Henderson and Coutinho could not finish the chances they had.

If we had a goal scoring midfielder/winger  like Maxi / Gerrard(at his peak),  the match score could
have been 2-4 instead of 2-1.
 
I hope we will sort this in the winter transfer window. 


Defensively I felt we were solid aside from the set pieces where Skrtel is concentating on the player marking too hard
than winning the ball and some bad passing from Sakho in the second half.

           

Offline Bird Bird Bird The Bird Is The Word

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Re: RAWK Round Table Man City 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #60 on: December 28, 2013, 01:26:51 pm »
My match review for Anfield Index http://anfieldindex.com/6951/manchester-city-2-1-liverpool-match-review.html

It's a bit long (4,000 words) but hope you enjoy it.

Very good analysis, enjoyed that.

Offline Dipsofacto

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Re: RAWK Round Table Man City 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #61 on: December 28, 2013, 01:49:00 pm »
Thought we put a very good attacking performance.

Sterling, Henderson, Coutinho and Suarez kept all finding each other in the final tjird.

Only bad thing is Sterling, Henderson and Coutinho could not finish the chances they had.

If we had a goal scoring midfielder/winger  like Maxi / Gerrard(at his peak),  the match score could
have been 2-4 instead of 2-1.
 
I hope we will sort this in the winter transfer window. 


Defensively I felt we were solid aside from the set pieces where Skrtel is concentating on the player marking too hard
than winning the ball and some bad passing from Sakho in the second half.

         

With regards to one of the chances missed did anyone else feel Hendo could and should have reached that ball for his chance but pulled up slightly for fear of creaming Harte. He needed to be braver there imo. Other then that I thought he was fantastic but that stood out for me as I watched it in real time.

Offline rafa4eva

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Re: RAWK Round Table Man City 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #62 on: December 28, 2013, 02:25:28 pm »
I seem to have taken a slightly different view of this game.

Having had time to think, pondering over the concerns and positives which have been gathered watching the game then even I have to say, admitting that I can be softly critical at times compared to other more positive views, we played a great open game, which I really enjoyed. I thought there was a similar vibe to the Arsenal game, if anyone watched it where you knew chances would be created, 9 goals vs 3 goals, id probably stick my hat on our game because of the the competitive nature and the fact you saw great attacking and defensive play rather than bonkers 9 goal game where the arse got their .... never-mind ;)

I thought Sterling and Coutinho had good games, but Suarez was key to almost every attacking move we created, if not making space for others, then starting the move, or being part of a move, its scary good to have a player, who is our captain ! have that great attitude, vision and skill in our side and I am not talking about Stevie ;) Sterling made the runs, but i think Suarez and the rest did well passing the ball in to him at the right times and yes the offside was ... well really bad, I've seen us and other teams get the same before, maybe its my age so not as shocked as others, but you have to get back into it. Allen did well and got better through the game, looked strong, tenacious, good vision and some good through balls. Lucas and Henderson competed well, not more to say.

Onto Skirtel ;) I thought he played really well,  personally think he stopped 3? chances with last ditch tackles, Negredo had 2 great chances which I thought would have been goals if Skirtel hadn't been there. The Kompany goal, well I think Kompany is a great footballer so yes Skirtel could not manage to stop him getting the header but its like criticising a defender who luis has just gone past, at this level with players this good, shit happens again its the picking yourself up of the floor which matters next, which I think Skirtel and the rest of the team did admirably well. Its a pity that one goal, which Kompany is well known for scoring, clouded the good things Skirtel and the rest of the team did to stop this game turning into a potential 9 goaler says more good things than bad, so back off ;) His shirt pulling, another one of those it shouldn't happen but it does happen in every game. However he sadly has got the spot light shone on him, has he become more blatant lately? I don't know, but i would not be surprised to see him get pulled up on something soon if he isn't able to stop this or become more subtle.

Mignolet was unlucky with the 2nd goal, not sure he had much chance with the 1st, as I believe Negredo using his left and the outside of his boot threw him, i was impressed Negredo took that option and funnily enough, im normally more critical of Mignolet than others, but thought he couldn't do much about that in this case. Joe hart on the other hand pulled off some great saves, was happy he was in at the start having put my foot on the " he's turned to complete shite " band wagon and not so happy he was playing at the end of the game.

I rate Man City, think they have some great players and a good coach however think we benefitted from having lescott on the field rather than Astrjic ? and Aguero could have made a difference but hey ho, it is what it is. I know we didn't have Gerrard, but think that worked for us in regard to this specific game to be honest. I agree with Chopper and others, as the 2nd half was more about City choosing to contain us, or try to rather than going for it as they did against Arsenal. However, I cannot stress enough the benefit to us as a squad and team, of only playing a game a week right now and as much as I enjoyed the game, we did lose and I still think City had the edge.

What struck me during the game, was that we almost looked a little chelsea like in their heyday under the moaner, btw i didnt like thinking that nevermind writing it, but some back handed praise to Brendan. We kept our shape really well, we moved up and down the pitch collectively, we transitioned well from defence to attack.

In summary, I'm very aware of the fact we are only playing a game a week which is a massive bonus, with more games how would we fare?, well that's for another day when we have that headache  but right now this game made me actually believe we could be competing for a top 4 place, where as i thought we would come 6th? this season, i still thought that whilst we were top, yep I am a right miserable bastard ! but its still so tight in the league I really don't know whats going to happen, every point will count thats for sure. But right now, you have to take heart from a genuinely competitive performance like that and being part of a great game regardless of the result due to who and where we played.







« Last Edit: December 28, 2013, 02:29:33 pm by rafa4eva »

Offline steveeastend

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Re: RAWK Round Table Man City 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #63 on: December 28, 2013, 02:29:27 pm »
The big thing for me is how now, the system is key. Our style, our mentality and our approach is based around our system and ethos, not by the individuals we have in the team, they do effect it of course, Suarez most notably, but the system is the king.

Long live the King!

Great post, this sums it up for me.

Overall though, I am little disappointed by the reactions around here, reading a lot of post game comments you would think we dropped to mid-table or something with an average performance with players not arsed..

In contrast, I have no words to describe how happy I was watching this game, how proud of Rodgers and the players as I know how much it takes to put down a performance like this, especially with big expectations after our Tottenham away win and playing the best team in the league away without our captain. I always hoped that Rodgers visions would click someday, that the daily work will lead to a foundation strong enough that it would only take players doing a professional job in order to be competitive at the very highest level. There is bad news though for the player in all this... the time for excuses finally over...

It was visible that our overall passing game has become very solid on a very, very high level, we play complex patterns which take a lot of practice in training and even more discipline in terms of movement and patience from the players and the question arises again whether Gerrard will fit in all this? Of course he can but to see Jordan Henderson and Joe Allen raising their game in a way I never would have thought to be possible will question the degree of influence necessary from the captain as we definitely relied too much on him in the past. Like Chopper pointed out, it's a team game and this as a proof once again.

Considering this, I definitely think that the players did not deserve sulking and cynical one liners as it's a massive job to perform within a team playing a passing game on such a high pace and level. Be it Johnson, Skrtel, Cissokho, Sakho, Mignolet or whoever got critics around here did a superb job, otherwise a performance like that wouldn't have been possible in the first place and I don't think it has anything to do with individual mistakes why we couldn't win. Mistakes on that level are inevitable, people only have to look at the number of chances we had in this game which doesn't make the City defense "useless" or "bad" at all.

We lost because of a naivety of the team as we shouldn't be that open in the last minute of the first half with a draw to go into the break. We were way too open and should be more clever, slowing down the pace or go for a tactical foul in their half in order stay in control in this neutral period of a game with nothing to win but a lot to lose. F.e. no italian team would concede at the end of any half, we simply have to be more clever here.

The reasons why we couldn't win are even more easy to list up.. we were unlucky in our finishing, simple as that.
« Last Edit: December 28, 2013, 04:03:07 pm by steveeastend »
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

Offline Resurrected

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Re: RAWK Round Table Man City 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #64 on: December 28, 2013, 06:20:16 pm »
Just a thought:

If City are the best team in the land, then our young team can't be too far behind, based on that performance.

But.......................

It's important to remember that one win or one loss doesn't define our season. It's a marathon, not a sprint. It's what we do against the other teams that really matters.

Offline houkura

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Re: RAWK Round Table Man City 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #65 on: December 28, 2013, 06:32:52 pm »

The onus on Sakho to yet again double mark two men on the far post made me do a double take, but it seems like Henderson lost his man (Yaya?) who found his way behind Sakho and his man, whom admittedly didn't cover himself in glory on that play either. Skrtel gets all the stick, but Yaya could easily have turned it in at the back stick.


That's the problem with analysing football by still photograph. This is long after the kick was taken and Henderson had moved towards the ball in play. It looks a lot like the 2v1 with Sahko in the Cardiff game but really it's not at all like it because the football isn't going to the far post. Yaya couldn't turn it in because it wasn't there.
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Re: RAWK Round Table Man City 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #66 on: December 28, 2013, 08:34:44 pm »

That's the problem with analysing football by still photograph. This is long after the kick was taken and Henderson had moved towards the ball in play. It looks a lot like the 2v1 with Sahko in the Cardiff game but really it's not at all like it because the football isn't going to the far post. Yaya couldn't turn it in because it wasn't there.

He could of turned it in though if Kompany had got a near post flick, Mignolet had parried or Allen had knocked it off the line though.

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« Last Edit: December 28, 2013, 09:02:16 pm by Al 555 »
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Re: RAWK Round Table Man City 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #67 on: December 28, 2013, 08:37:29 pm »
Hi everyone.

I've read this forum for years, but just as a lurker. Just wanted to share some thoughts I had about Lee Mason after Rodgers made his feelings clear on the matter. I'll add as a caveat that I'm not sure that this is the correct thread and I'm also not sure that whatever I'm posting hasn't already been discussed elsewhere on the board that I haven't seen.

I understand that as a Liverpool fan, I'm predisposed to see things through a tinted lens. I know what cognitive bias is and I'm not dumb enough to believe that I'm immune from it. I've never come away from a game thinking that the ref really gave us everything and obviously I've felt the opposite on at least a handful of occasions.

That being said, I'm not a referee hater. I think their job is immensely difficult and for the most part I think they do it well. I think Michael Oliver is a good, courageous ref, especially for his age.  I have next to no opinion on Webb, Dean, Foy, Clattenburg, Atkinson, Jones, etc. For me they don't really stand apart from one another and have never been overly unfair in any games I've seen, whether they've made mistakes or not.

However, I've come (without really being too aware of it) over the years to quite dislike Lee Mason. In my opinion he's refereed Liverpool games without really giving the reds a fair shake. I don't know how often I've noticed this but it's been enough to know that when I saw him in the tunnel on Boxing Day I was immediately depressed.

The thing is, I don't think he had a particularly bad game in the City match. I didn't find that he was giving a significant amount of decisions against Liverpool, which, as I've said, is something that I've found before. Maybe I was just so nervous about him and the game was so entertaining that he wasn't able to ruin the experience, something he has done for me before.

However I found it interesting that Rodgers commented on it. Obviously Brendan was unimpressed at the linesman too (shocking decision) but I was interested on his comments that targeted Mason in particular. On the face of it, it appears to be a double standard that Mason referees games with the Manchester teams but referees like Chris Foy and Mike Jones (from St.Helens and Chester) don't do games involving the Liverpool side.

So naturally given I always thought poorly of Mason and grew to really resent his fat smug face in particular and now that Rodgers was also irritated at him, I was interested in Liverpool's record under him, which is 6 wins, 6 draws and 5 losses in the league.

Now obviously our form over the last few years means that it wouldn't be too far out of the ordinary that one could find a run of form like this in a random 17 game sample, especially if the games came from a hard selection of opponents. However the opponents before the City game were as follows:

Stoke x 3
Aston Villa x 2
Middlesborough x 2
Fulham x 2
Birmingham
Burnley
Portsmouth
Newcastle
West Brom
QPR
Wigan

Now obviously this is still a small sample size, but no matter how bad we've been over the last three years, six wins out of sixteen versus this lot is a drastic underperformance. Before the City game we've never played a team better than us yet have struggled to win many of them. Mason has awarded our opponents in this set of game with three penalties, and Liverpool with none. He has sent off three reds and no opponents.

Brendan is not the first Liverpool manager in recent times to be relatively respectful of officials, and not the first of these to be displeased with Mason's performance either. I.E:

Liverpool suffered their fifth league defeat of the season in 11 games as both Philipp Degen and Jamie Carragher saw red in a frantic final 20 minutes that saw Erik Nevland and Clint Dempsey inflict further pain on Benítez with the goals that see them lag nine points behind table-toppers Chelsea.

Yet Benítez was bullish afterwards, claiming Mason should only have booked Degen for his lunge on Dempsey and should not even have awarded a free kick against Carragher for hauling down Bobby Zamora, who was through on goal.

“The first sending off [Degen] was a yellow-card offence and it was very clear Carragher kicked the ball for the second one, so we will be appealing,” said Benítez. “Those incidents in a few minutes are difficult to take.

----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Ten-man Liverpool's season of woe continued as they were beaten by bottom-of-the-table Portsmouth.

The Argentine went in hard and with his studs showing on Ben-Haim and, despite needing treatment as he himself came off worst, Mascherano was dismissed by referee Lee Mason.

Liverpool boss Rafael Benitez:

"I think that the team were good in the first half and we were controlling the game. We conceded a goal but we had control.

"After the sending off of Mascherano everything changed.

"The referee was perfect," he added sarcastically. "He was perfect when not giving fouls to Torres. He was perfect in everything."



Also:


Kenny Dalglish was upset with referee Lee Mason’s performance as Liverpool slumped to a 2-1 home defeat to Wigan Athletic.

The Latics’ first goal came from a Shaun Maloney penalty, after Martin Skrtel was adjudged to have fouled Victor Moses.

Luis Suarez equalised but had a second goal ruled out for handball, before Gary Caldwell sealed Wigan’s first ever win at Anfield.

It was a fourth loss in five Premier League games for the Reds, but Dalglish claimed there should have been a different outcome.

He said: ‘It doesn’t matter how well or badly you play, you still need a wee bit of luck sometimes and there is no reason why the second goal should be chalked off for me.

‘But we can’t control referees, we can control ourselves. We’ll brush ourselves down and get ourselves going again.



Who knows who is still left at the club from Rafa's tenure, but with Dalglish still involved in some regard perhaps Mason is a marked man at Anfield, someone spoken of unfavorably in corridors well before Rodgers delivered his post Boxing Day comments.

Is Mason biased against Liverpool? I would say that it's both impossible and pointless to tell. I think between my developed dislike for him, and now Rodgers hitting out against him and the (flawed, obviously) statistics that we can say with some confidence that Liverpool have suffered for his presence in games he has officiated. There is variance in refereeing and refereeing decisions and it's well within the realm of possibility for us to have been on the unlucky side of a lot of bad Lee Mason decisions (referees, like players are not omniscient and will get a lot wrong). However, if Rodgers comments mean that we see less of him in the future, I won't be complaining.

Offline hassinator

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Re: RAWK Round Table Man City 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #68 on: December 28, 2013, 09:17:45 pm »
i've always felt particularly fucked over after stoke games

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Re: RAWK Round Table Man City 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #69 on: December 28, 2013, 10:42:12 pm »
"I've not seen it and I'm not being Arsene Wenger," Dalglish said. "If there's something untoward then I am sure the governing body will act appropriately."

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Re: RAWK Round Table Man City 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #70 on: December 28, 2013, 11:51:18 pm »
That is a cracking first post.

Can only agree and applaud the effort for someone's first post.

However, I cannot agree with any objective standpoint that masks in any way shape or form what an absolute c*nt mason is. Nor one that fails to cite the litany of awful decisions - some crucial - that the guy made in that match, every single one of which penalised us.

But once again - your conclusions of no bias apart - cracking post Beep lad.
 

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Re: RAWK Round Table Man City 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #71 on: December 28, 2013, 11:55:58 pm »

Start believing people, we a very good team.


Nailed it.

Offline BazC

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Re: RAWK Round Table Man City 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #72 on: December 29, 2013, 12:37:02 am »
He could of turned it in though if Kompany had got a near post flick, Mignolet had parried or Allen had knocked it off the line though.

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Sakho's 2 v 1 at the back post again there... just noticed that. Such a mess really.
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Re: RAWK Round Table Man City 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #73 on: December 29, 2013, 03:54:07 am »
He could of turned it in though if Kompany had got a near post flick, Mignolet had parried or Allen had knocked it off the line though.

Just for you



I hate to say it, but it looks like Lucas jumped too early, as well. By rights, that was his ball to head-clear.
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Re: RAWK Round Table Man City 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #74 on: December 29, 2013, 07:45:54 am »
He could of turned it in though if Kompany had got a near post flick, Mignolet had parried or Allen had knocked it off the line though.

Just for you


Funny how we have only 1 player guarding the post and it appears that Allen moved from the right post to the left once he knew the ball flight. Two points for goalkeeping 101:
1. I thought you'd have 2 players guarding each post
2. You'd have tall players guarding the post

Hendo was a free man and that shouldn't be the case whereas Sakho had to contend with 2 City players

Offline tossedandblown

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Re: RAWK Round Table Man City 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #75 on: December 29, 2013, 09:33:27 am »
Funny how we have only 1 player guarding the post and it appears that Allen moved from the right post to the left once he knew the ball flight. Two points for goalkeeping 101:
1. I thought you'd have 2 players guarding each post
2. You'd have tall players guarding the post


isn't that one of our problems...

in an ideal world, we don't have enough tall players

Offline Red Bird

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Re: RAWK Round Table Man City 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #76 on: December 29, 2013, 09:39:33 am »

isn't that one of our problems...

in an ideal world, we don't have enough tall players
I look at it differently; we don't have enough players who jump and head the ball well. I always look at how Tim Cahill and Roberto Ayala used to time themselves and outjump the tallest of them as clear evidence.

« Last Edit: December 29, 2013, 09:43:28 am by Red Bird »

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Re: RAWK Round Table Man City 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #77 on: December 29, 2013, 11:16:56 am »
Funny how we have only 1 player guarding the post and it appears that Allen moved from the right post to the left once he knew the ball flight. Two points for goalkeeping 101:
1. I thought you'd have 2 players guarding each post
2. You'd have tall players guarding the post

Hendo was a free man and that shouldn't be the case whereas Sakho had to contend with 2 City players
The amount of players on the post depends on what the goalie prefers, maybe he likes an extra man to content the ball, Lucas is this case.
The smallest players guard the post because the tallest have to mark the tall players of the opposition and are ussualy the best defensive headers..

Offline BazC

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Re: RAWK Round Table Man City 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #78 on: December 29, 2013, 11:24:16 am »
Funny how we have only 1 player guarding the post and it appears that Allen moved from the right post to the left once he knew the ball flight. Two points for goalkeeping 101:
1. I thought you'd have 2 players guarding each post
2. You'd have tall players guarding the post

Hendo was a free man and that shouldn't be the case whereas Sakho had to contend with 2 City players

Yeah Henderson and Sakho got into a bit of a mess there again - it should be down to Sakho to communicate that? Or is it not man-to-man. I don't know, but it was 2v1 at the back post again and there's a lot of space in front of those Man City players before you see Mignolet (who's not going to attack the ball if it looks like it's dropping there).

The worse thing is, in that goal, if they play the deeper ball, they probably score it as well. The fact they played it near post, where Kompany and Skrtel are battling it out actually gave us a better chance to get it out. It still ends up in the back of the net.

Anyway, a clean sheet today with solid defending of set pieces would be good.
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Re: RAWK Round Table Man City 2-1 Liverpool
« Reply #79 on: December 29, 2013, 11:43:51 am »
The smallest players guard the post because the tallest have to mark the tall players of the opposition and are ussualy the best defensive headers..
I look at it differently. The taller players (barring the CBs) have a better coverage of the exposed goal than a short player.

The trouble is, we're not attacking the ball enough and we get very confused in the box. Hope BR addresses this during the break. We can definitely score goals from corners (second only behind City) but have let in 7.