Author Topic: PhaseOfPlay on Spurs 0-5 Liverpool  (Read 23543 times)

Offline PhaseOfPlay

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PhaseOfPlay on Spurs 0-5 Liverpool
« on: December 17, 2013, 06:12:09 am »
It’s not often that Liverpool can go away to Spurs, and dominate White Hart Lane as if it was their own home ground. But dominate they did, in a stellar attacking performance that some might say masked some real defensive problems – but which, overall, put down a marker that stated that Liverpool, on their day, will hunt for any weakness shown by an opposition team, and exploit it to the fullest. There were three key points to the game against Spurs - the team shape, the work of Henderson, and the pressing defence. Taking away from that was one negative aspect of the performance, but not a crippling one. In fact, the game against Spurs might have shown possible solutions to some future problems.


Team Shape


This was an interesting game in terms of team-shape, because our shape was very, very dynamic. With Lucas dropping in between the defenders when needed, Allen and Henderson taking it in turns to press forward, Flanagan holding part but also choosing his moments to go forward, and Coutinho and Sterling moving in behind Suarez, Liverpool left a lot for Spurs to keep track of - their own team shape was quite static, with the exception of Capoue who didn’t seem to have anything remotely resembling tactical discipline as a central defender.

At times, we played in the near-3-4-3 formation that signified some of our best performances last season. Although the central defenders weren’t as split as they were last year, the fact that Lucas was able and willing to drop straight into the middle of the defenders, rather than that half-role he often takes, suggests that with two more mobile midfielders in front of him, he was more comfortable leaving that central area to other players and could drop in and play in the central space more effortlessly.

The key to the attacking mobility was the front three, plus Henderson. In 4v4 coaching, the continuous shaping and reshaping of a diamond arrangement of players is paramount – it’s a very Dutch thing to use the geometry of a diamond shape to trigger movement and support positions, and it is something that Barcelona base their football on, rather than the triangles people seem to associate with them. We could see elements of that in the types of penetrating runs being made by Sterling and Henderson, always trying to establish depth in front of, and width either side of, the ball. With this movement, coupled with penetrating fullbacks, and a makeshift Spurs defence, it’s easy to see where Liverpool’s attacking domination was coming from.




Henderson

Henderson was a deserved Man of the Match. His physical output was one of the keys to how Liverpool won the midfield battle. If it wasn’t enough for Lucas to be playing the holding role as well as he has in quite a while, and adding to that Allen’s continuing regeneration as a legitimate £15m player, then the sheer athleticism, intelligence, penetration and work-rate of Henderson was the icing on the cake. A laboured midfield of Sandro, Paulinho and Dembele might have made a mark on an equally laboured midfield, given their physical power – but a midfield three that played with pace, purpose and ball-movement was always going to give them something to think about. Nobody personified that more than Henderson in this game. We can see this by the amount the field he covered, in both attack and defence:




The majority of his work was done in central midfield, but he ran the length of the field to help the team, balancing his work on both the left and right sides, with a slight bias towards the left side – a helping hand that Flanagan was surely grateful for at times.

In terms of his attacking output, he handled the mantle of “Gerrard Replacement” with aplomb. In terms of his passing, he made the most passes out of the whole team at 63 passes, with an astonishing 92% accuracy. As if that wasn’t enough, he also replaced Gerrard’s long passes in quality and quantity – Gerrard averages 7.1 long passes per game with a 74% accuracy level. Henderson played 7 long passes against Spurs, and all 7 reached their target. He also played 4 key passes in the game, which is higher than Gerrard’s average of 2.7 key passes per game. Perhaps the successor to Gerrard is someone we are already looking at on the books.

Pressing

One of the key features of this game was Liverpool’s pressing game. It had all the hallmarks of a genuine pressing game, rather than the mere “pressure” game that is the norm under Rodgers. The midfield hunted for the ball in packs, the forwards put the Spurs defenders under pressure, and the team played fairly compact to cut the spaces between the lines. We can see from this image how we looked to win the ball high and early in Spurs’ half:



The high number of tackles and interceptions in the Spurs half shows a concerted effort take the game to the opposition, and it’s a policy that Rodgers should really make permanent as an away tactic, because the more cagey game of recent matches doesn’t suit the personnel or personality of the team. They look like a team that likes to hunt the ball, and that mentality would be a better means of getting maximum points from away games than the recent policy of patience and sitting back and letting the opposition take the initiative.
In terms of individual players, especially in the midfield, we can see, again, the continuing revival of Allen as a serious player. His eight tackles was the most of anyone in midfield, defence or attack. His work meant That Lucas could focus more on winning the second ball from the press, which was indeed the case – Lucas won 4 interceptions, the most on the team in the game, and a lot of these interceptions can be attributed to the pressure the team was putting on the Spurs midfield and defence to play rushed passes and take bad touches. The sending-off helped in this respect, but the damage was being done before that moment, truth-be-told.

Johnson

If there is one negative to take from the game, it is the performance of one of the more experienced players in Johnson. His performance was not in synch with the efforts of the rest of the team, and indeed could almost be said to be sloppy in inverse proportion to the tidiness of the work of Henderson, for example. Johnson had 47 passes in the game, but only had a 70% accuracy with them. By contrast, Flanagan had less passes at 35, but crucially 89% of his passes reached their target. Johnson also, in 90 minutes, had only 1 tackle in the game – contrast this with Alberto’s 2 tackles in less than a half of football, and given that Spurs attacked mostly through their left side with Chadli, and you can see a pattern of carelessness in Johnson’s play. Even in terms of getting the ball forward, he was ineffective. He attempted 5 long passes, and not a single one reached their destination, while Flanagan attempted 2 long passes with 50% accuracy. It might be tempting to think that as soon as Enrique is fit, Johnson might well be challenged legitimately for his spot by Flanagan. Perhaps a fitter Kelly would be doing the same. Either way, there is a clear drop in Johnson’s performance levels and as churlish as it is to point them out in a resounding 5-0 away victory, it is precisely the nature of that victory that emphasises the shortfall in performance that Johnson exhibited. A team is only as strong as its weakest link, and for so long Johnson was one of the strongest ones. The turnaround in circumstance might give Rodgers pause for thought as we enter the transfer period.

Overall

The take-home lesson from this game is that Liverpool shouldn’t fear any other team in the league. The football the team is capable of is more than enough to trouble even the biggest squads. Only 11 players can play at any one time, and what Liverpool’s first 11 might sometimes lack in player-for-player quality, it makes up for in togetherness, tactics, and mobility. The celebrations after the goals yesterday, and after each half ended, showed a team that believes in the talent of the collective, rather than the number of its parts. Sometimes, that is enough to make up for any “quality” deficit in individual player match-ups. We’ll see more about that in the next three games.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 02:39:45 pm by BalesofHay »
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Re: PhaseOfPlay on Spurs 0-5 Liverpool
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2013, 07:23:01 am »
I split this out, because it's one you might have missed. There are a great many good posts in the Round Table as always, but this is a potential watershed for this squad. The pressing hallmarks, the belief in the absence of key personnel, the growing out of Glen Johnson, and so forth.

Things are afoot. I'd be interested in some discussion of how the tactical periodisation in training has led us to this point, where a team is eager to hunt the ball in packs, and seemingly does so naturally when that midfield three boasts both energy and tactical nous.

By God, how we'd look if we bolstered those qualities in Janiary.

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Re: PhaseOfPlay on Spurs 0-5 Liverpool
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2013, 07:40:14 am »
Didnt Johnson have a shot with his Left that was saved/flew over the post?

Offline moloch

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Re: PhaseOfPlay on Spurs 0-5 Liverpool
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2013, 07:57:28 am »
Didnt Johnson have a shot with his Left that was saved/flew over the post?

Yes, just about curled over the top corner. Johnson really is an enigma wrapped in a puzzle. Seems like he just doesn't fit in (or understand?) how BR wants us to play..

Offline Funky_Gibbons

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Re: PhaseOfPlay on Spurs 0-5 Liverpool
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2013, 08:03:55 am »
Did this game show a change in style to reflect the changes in midfield.

With Gerrard in midfield we appear willing to almost concede midfield and drop deep to allow teams to push up on us and leave space behind their defence which we can exploit with fast counter attacks and accurate long balls. This plays right into Gerrard's strengths.

Without Gerrard we had a mobile, energetic midfield without the creativity of Gerrard so we pressed high up the pitch and tried to win the ball back in attacking positions in the last third allowing the midfield to feed the attacking, creative players in dangerous areas. 

It certainly seemed to do the trick against Spurs but only time will tell if it works against packed defences but you can imagine it being a very long 90-minutes for any team playing this midfield.
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Offline slimbo

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Re: PhaseOfPlay on Spurs 0-5 Liverpool
« Reply #5 on: December 18, 2013, 08:08:35 am »
Thanks PoP, I think Johnson's stats are very telling and not isolated. Would be interested to se how they compare to his West Ham performabce also.

I notice you mentioned Lucas role was enhanced by having two mobile midfielders in front of him. Does this provide a conundrum for us when Gerrard is fit again? Should we play with only one or the other?

Offline MiddleMan

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Re: PhaseOfPlay on Spurs 0-5 Liverpool
« Reply #6 on: December 18, 2013, 08:13:50 am »
It was always interesting to me that people would go on about how we need someone to replace Steven Gerrard when he could no longer provide what he has over his career - or even the past year or so of Rodgers' reign. While it is not quite correct to say we are a better team without Gerrard in the midfield, I think we may all be able to agree that there are important characteristics of a three man midfield that don't quite suit the Captain in certain games. We've had success with him in the team when the ball movement of the opposition has been ponderous and sterile; however when the game is taken to us we've seen him be bypassed at times. We've not played many teams that have considered this tactic against us as of yet, but - while admittedly being a small sample size - I believe there to be sharp contrast between possibly our two toughest games as of yet: Arsenal and Tottenham.

The Arsenal game nullified our midfield for much of the game. Most notably it was painful to see as the final minutes waned we were still letting them play in front of us with responsibility taken by any of our midfielders to put pressure on theirs. We had either given up belief that we could grab a goal (which seems doubtful considering our strike-force) or lacked the belief that we could pressure them into a mistake, with the prospect of tired legs on an already laboured pressing game.

The Tottenham game for me was the antithesis of that game. As PoP pointed out the pressing game controlled their midfield and if a Liverpool player didn't win the ball, the opposition was forced into a mistake. As one central midfielder would close down the man on the ball, a teammate would come in from the blindside often being able to nick it away or at the very least close down another passing lane. Henderson was everywhere, but special mention to Raheem Sterling as well; the kid has some fight in him. Even as the game aged and the legs were supposed to be tiring, the players wanted more. They pushed and pressed the opposition into conceding the ball and we looked like scoring ten more. Wonderful.

Say what you will about the weakness of their starting XI, they were scared shitless of us, and that is how it should be.



Glen Johnson is an interesting player to discuss. Glen does the simple things that, to the casual observer, make him seem a wonderful player (and he is). A subtle touch that takes the ball out of the sky or a quick run-around a defender and he makes people forget that just a half-of-a-minute earlier he let by a chance at the other end by getting caught upfield on a quick counter. He has lately seemed to wither under the threat of a constant direct attacking player. I don't believe he is getting past it but rather getting complacent; he needs competition. I was quite happy with the link to Montoya as it will give him a genuine reason to play the way we know he can. Last season seemed to work wonders with Enrique when he was dropped for Johnson on the left (and to a lesser extent, Downing).

As much we know Martin Kelly was a wonderful player just last year, I fear he still has a ways of recovery to go. The two times Kelly was subbed in this season he looked out of place, not by any means due to lack of fitness but rather lack of positional sense and desire to put a tackle in. That said, I still think he could develop into a great fullback if we give him time to make this recovery. He is strong in defense and a powerful runner with the ball on the other side of the pitch. He was popping up in very dangerous positions last year before his unfortunate injury. I very much believe the plan is to bring in a very good fringe/starting XI fullback in January, slowly ease him in over the spring, and then, depending on both the effectiveness of the buy and the progress of Kelly, we may see Johnson shipped out in the summer.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 08:16:58 am by MiddleMan »

Offline elpistolero7

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Re: PhaseOfPlay on Spurs 0-5 Liverpool
« Reply #7 on: December 18, 2013, 08:42:16 am »
Stunning, stunning piece PoP. Always a pleasure to read.

I always use this stuff when discussing the games with my mates. They all think I'm some tactical wizard  ;D.
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Offline kaz1983

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Re: PhaseOfPlay on Spurs 0-5 Liverpool
« Reply #8 on: December 18, 2013, 08:44:30 am »
Nice one and yeah, I agree that we look a whole better ''hunting in packs'' and that is down to a midfield three that doesn't contain Gerrard.


Offline "21C or 70F?" SchizoidWeatherMan!

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Re: PhaseOfPlay on Spurs 0-5 Liverpool
« Reply #9 on: December 18, 2013, 08:56:15 am »
Very sound analysis without overcomplicating it. Completely agree with all of it. The bit on Johnson's performance is spot on.  He just doesn't seem to have the game awareness, intelligence and tactical flexibility to play in a dystem as dynamic as ours.

Henderson, as mentioned, had one of his best performances in a liverpool shirt. It was a complete midfield performance and he showed initiative and responsibility to take control of the game. He was the most 'proactive' of our 3 CMs and provided much needed drive in CM.

I know its a controversial opinion but I'd rather see us stick to Allen-Lucas-Hendo in CM and play Gerrard as a forward/enganche when he returns.

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Offline kaz1983

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Re: PhaseOfPlay on Spurs 0-5 Liverpool
« Reply #10 on: December 18, 2013, 09:17:12 am »
Very sound analysis without overcomplicating it. Completely agree with all of it. The bit on Johnson's performance is spot on.  He just doesn't seem to have the game awareness, intelligence and tactical flexibility to play in a dystem as dynamic as ours.

Henderson, as mentioned, had one of his best performances in a liverpool shirt. It was a complete midfield performance and he showed initiative and responsibility to take control of the game. He was the most 'proactive' of our 3 CMs and provided much needed drive in CM.

I know its a controversial opinion but I'd rather see us stick to Allen-Lucas-Hendo in CM and play Gerrard as a forward/enganche when he returns.

Nah mate not for me, I completely agree - it should be tried if BR plans to go back to playing a 4-3-1-2 when Sturiddge is fit... I mean why not? Besides you wouldn't be changing the shape/formation much to be honest - you would still have Lucas dropping into forming a back three of sorts, the fullbacks pushing up alongside Henderson and Allen (if both fit..) and Coutinho (if fit..) dropping deep when we loose possession/then pushing up/drifting around and linking up with Gerrard - seeing as tho' when we have the ball he will be dropping deep and linking up play - creating a 3-4-3 to a certain extent.... ohh Suarez as center forward, dropping deep and picking up the ball - when he's not leading the line/trying to get in behind of course.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 09:21:10 am by BMW »

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Re: PhaseOfPlay on Spurs 0-5 Liverpool
« Reply #11 on: December 18, 2013, 09:24:38 am »
The bit on Johnson's performance is spot on.  He just doesn't seem to have the game awareness, intelligence and tactical flexibility to play in a dystem as dynamic as ours.

I dont think the problem is as deep as that.

He doesnt need amazing game awareness, intelligence and tactical flexibility to be able to make some tackles and defend even in such a dynamic system. Chadli got the beating of him every time, not because Johnson was struggling in a dynamic system but because he was too slow and way to easily turned, simple as that.



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Re: PhaseOfPlay on Spurs 0-5 Liverpool
« Reply #12 on: December 18, 2013, 09:24:41 am »
Think its worth putting this (by Tika Taka) in here to show the extent of the hussling and hunting in packs we done throughout the game

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJDZn7qyMjA&feature=youtube_gdata_player

It really is a good watch
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Offline "21C or 70F?" SchizoidWeatherMan!

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Re: PhaseOfPlay on Spurs 0-5 Liverpool
« Reply #13 on: December 18, 2013, 09:31:38 am »
Nah mate not for me, I completely agree - it should be tried if BR plans to go back to playing a 4-3-1-2 when Sturiddge is fit... I mean why not? Besides you wouldn't be changing the shape/formation much to be honest - you would still have Lucas dropping into forming a back three of sorts, the fullbacks pushing up alongside Henderson and Allen (if both fit..) and Coutinho (if fit..) dropping deep when we loose possession/then pushing up/drifting around and linking up with Gerrard - seeing as tho' when we have the ball he will be dropping deep and linking up play - creating a 3-4-3 to a certain extent.... ohh Suarez as center forward, dropping deep and picking up the ball - when he's not leading the line/trying to get in behind of course.

Exactly. It will put Gerrard in a position where he can attempt killer balls without affecting the team.

I dont think the problem is as deep as that.

He doesnt need amazing game awareness, intelligence and tactical flexibility to be able to make some tackles and defend even in such a dynamic system. Chadli got the beating of him every time, not because Johnson was struggling in a dynamic system but because he was too slow and way to easily turned, simple as that.





I suppose. So you think its more of a concentration issue?
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Offline Believe

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Re: PhaseOfPlay on Spurs 0-5 Liverpool
« Reply #14 on: December 18, 2013, 09:35:33 am »
I think Johnson is carrying some kind of injury, he doesn't seem quite 100% at the moment but is still nowhere near castigation territory. As PoP says perhaps a serious competitor for his place might be a good idea too. 

He was awesome pre high ankle strain against Utd.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 09:44:15 am by Believe »

Offline helmboy_nige

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Re: PhaseOfPlay on Spurs 0-5 Liverpool
« Reply #15 on: December 18, 2013, 09:35:50 am »
Yes this was a great breakdown as always from PoP/BoH/WtF  ;D

Can't disagree with any of it, but I am interested to see how we perform against a team that parks the bus (like this weekend).  I've been waiting to see Lucas/Henderson/Allen as a midfield 3 in a big game for a long time and they didn't disappoint.

Johnson is a strange one.  One of my favourite players, but I've found him infuriating recently.  He just doesn't seem to be in tune with the rest of the squad and it almost looks like he's going through the motions.  When Enrique is back should we be considering pushing Flanagan right?

Anyway, love reading your stuff PoP.

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Re: PhaseOfPlay on Spurs 0-5 Liverpool
« Reply #16 on: December 18, 2013, 09:40:00 am »


I suppose. So you think its more of a concentration issue?

Yeah or fitness maybe ? If Flannagan has the technical ability and mentality to fit into our system then Johnson 100% should be able to

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Re: PhaseOfPlay on Spurs 0-5 Liverpool
« Reply #17 on: December 18, 2013, 09:44:50 am »
Yeah or fitness maybe ? If Flannagan has the technical ability and mentality to fit into our system then Johnson 100% should be able to

Cannot disagree with that. Flanagan doesn't have Johnson's on the ball ability but he has done a very good job at LB (an unfamiliar position for him). So i guess its a question of fitness or application.

Either way, we need another quality RB to at least compete with him and keep him on his toes
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Re: PhaseOfPlay on Spurs 0-5 Liverpool
« Reply #18 on: December 18, 2013, 10:14:58 am »
Superb analysis POP.

Thank you.

I am incredibly excited about what we might achieve this season.  For many a year as a club we have been tinkering along buying the wrong players and having owners unsuitable for a club of our stance.

I'm certain the tide has changed.

All appears rosy.  For me, the next couple of weeks are massive for our club.  If we can maintain a challenge right at the top of the table up to the Hull game, I am sure that the glitzy players who wouldn't come before, will do now. 

Just 2 or 3 more classy arrivals in January and I think we would have a squad to challenge right up until May. 

There has been so much negativity around our club for so long, now is the time for us to put the past behind us and walk together into what could be a glorious future.

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Re: PhaseOfPlay on Spurs 0-5 Liverpool
« Reply #19 on: December 18, 2013, 10:21:43 am »
Stunning, stunning piece PoP. Always a pleasure to read.

I always use this stuff when discussing the games with my mates. They all think I'm some tactical wizard  ;D.

 ;D

We are lucky to have someone of POP's abilities.  No doubt about it.   I've watched football for over 40 years and thought I knew it all.  Then you read a POP analysis and just go "wow".
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Re: PhaseOfPlay on Spurs 0-5 Liverpool
« Reply #20 on: December 18, 2013, 11:06:54 am »
The Johnson conundrum is similar to gerrard for me. They are players who will be more suited to teams that park the bus. The teams that wont be pressing him to get the ball back. His biggest asset is how much of a threat he can be when pushing forward against these teams and where Flanagan is less suited if they were competing.  He would  be more likely to open space in these situations.  The game at the weekend should show this I hope

Apart from that it was good to see a pressing game for a change. Been a few games this season where it would have been suited to the opposition but hasnt been used.
« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 11:09:30 am by macca007 »

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Re: PhaseOfPlay on Spurs 0-5 Liverpool
« Reply #21 on: December 18, 2013, 11:15:38 am »
Wasn't Johnson also marking Chadli when he had that free header from a corner at 1-0?

He really should have buried that chance.
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Offline kaz1983

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Re: PhaseOfPlay on Spurs 0-5 Liverpool
« Reply #22 on: December 18, 2013, 11:21:42 am »
- snip -

Well Gerrard out of our midfield would be best for all parties concerned. It's IMO why Totti is still so effective for Roma despite his aging legs.

It's like you say, ''It will put Gerrard in a position where he can attempt killer balls without affecting the team.'' and then you got Gerrard's ability to switch the play via his long ball distribution .... which is one of the things that get mentioned over and over again in defense of why Gerrard is a important member of our midfield.... well that's true but doesn't have to be done from midfield..



EDIT; ohhh anyways back to the topic on hand 



;D
« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 11:28:25 am by BMW »

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Re: PhaseOfPlay on Spurs 0-5 Liverpool
« Reply #23 on: December 18, 2013, 11:28:09 am »
I notice you mentioned Lucas role was enhanced by having two mobile midfielders in front of him. Does this provide a conundrum for us when Gerrard is fit again? Should we play with only one or the other?


I don't think it does.

What we've seen from BR this season is that no matter who you are, if go out the team for whatever reason (injury or form)
it's very hard to get back in if the player that has replaced you is performing.

Stevie like any other player will have to bide his time if our midfield continues to play like it did at Spuds.

Always quality from POP.

After reading this and watching the game again Johno stood out like a sore thumb.....
« Last Edit: December 18, 2013, 11:29:42 am by DeLeiva »

Offline exiledinyorkshire

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Re: PhaseOfPlay on Spurs 0-5 Liverpool
« Reply #24 on: December 18, 2013, 11:42:11 am »
Interested to see what you guys think the key triggers are for our lot to press.

Watched that twice and they are clearly not doing it all the time, but it's not just happening on its own. Are they going after certain players certain passes or certain areas of the pitch.

The beauty of that pressing and I have always thought its the key to Barca too, is that if that ball is won the close support around the player that emerges leads to the Tikki taka football. It can all be one touch and away. The amount of times a spurs player is left isolated with 4-5 red shirts around him is unbelievable.

Offline Robbo1980

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Re: PhaseOfPlay on Spurs 0-5 Liverpool
« Reply #25 on: December 18, 2013, 11:52:10 am »
Id be interested in johnsons game stats (were can i get them?) for almost the full year roughly because his performances on the eye at least have imo been very much like this one, barring the odd game, lazy on the ball and without it and indecisive. It started at roughly this time last year if i recall after a good start to last year. I would possibly be inclined to swap him and flanno around until we can bring another player in and see if a stint on the left can invigorate him

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Re: PhaseOfPlay on Spurs 0-5 Liverpool
« Reply #27 on: December 18, 2013, 12:07:53 pm »
Great post.  Lots to think about there.
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Re: PhaseOfPlay on Spurs 0-5 Liverpool
« Reply #28 on: December 18, 2013, 12:13:58 pm »
Johnson was poor I thought, pretty much as everyone else is pointing out. He is very sloppy in his passing game at the moment, combined with an unwillingness/ability to get back once he has made a forward run. The issue is that he will periodically pull a blinder out of the bag which will have him at the forefront as our best RB. The issue is though if that Flanno could replace him and people are saying GJ lacks game intelligence, then replacing the LB position with Enrique will hardly add that intellignece will it?

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Re: PhaseOfPlay on Spurs 0-5 Liverpool
« Reply #29 on: December 18, 2013, 12:42:08 pm »
I would be very interested in what POP and anyone else thinks the reason behind this pressing game we obviously set out to achieve against Tottenham.

I said in a previous post that I would be interested to see which direction that Rodgers was going to take us in terms of pure 'tika taka' football against counter attack football.
I personally believe the squad of players we have suits the style of football that we played against Tottenham as we do have players with high energy that seem to be more suited to turnover football as the likes of Henderson showed on Sunday and in the spaces left by the opposition Coutinho can revel with his passing ability.

Now don't get me wrong at home against the so called lesser teams we will play keep ball moving the opposition around but the more I watch the game against Tottenham the more that comes across to me as 'death by football' than anything else we have played since Rodgers has come in as when we had it we played quick one two triangles leaving the spurs midfield wondering where the ball had actually ended up and when they had the ball we had taken it off them before they had had an opportunity to assess any option the May have had. That to me was death by football.

I suppose my point is what was the difference between the game on Sunday and the rest of the games against the so called better teams we have played since Rodgers has come in as certainly away from home I can't remember us having that obvious desire to go and win the ball back.
What are the triggers for the players as at times we let them have the ball then it was like a switch was turned and we went hunting for the ball back.
And whether this is the way Rodgers will look at having us playing as an ideal because I for one think this style of football played on Sunday was exhilarating on the eye and think it would lead us to challenge at the top table yet again

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Re: PhaseOfPlay on Spurs 0-5 Liverpool
« Reply #30 on: December 18, 2013, 12:46:35 pm »
Brilliant post as usual Pop sir!

I note above someone else refers to the way Roma are using Totti and have used him in the last couple of years, thats good to see as i got lambasted elsewhere in this forum for suggesting we look at the way they did it with the hope Stevie is still playing for us at 37 as well. As for Glen is it an older player not willing to take on new ideas, or is he just the wrong guy for this system?
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Re: PhaseOfPlay on Spurs 0-5 Liverpool
« Reply #31 on: December 18, 2013, 01:00:27 pm »
I would be very interested in what POP and anyone else thinks the reason behind this pressing game we obviously set out to achieve against Tottenham.

I said in a previous post that I would be interested to see which direction that Rodgers was going to take us in terms of pure 'tika taka' football against counter attack football.
I personally believe the squad of players we have suits the style of football that we played against Tottenham as we do have players with high energy that seem to be more suited to turnover football as the likes of Henderson showed on Sunday and in the spaces left by the opposition Coutinho can revel with his passing ability.

Now don't get me wrong at home against the so called lesser teams we will play keep ball moving the opposition around but the more I watch the game against Tottenham the more that comes across to me as 'death by football' than anything else we have played since Rodgers has come in as when we had it we played quick one two triangles leaving the spurs midfield wondering where the ball had actually ended up and when they had the ball we had taken it off them before they had had an opportunity to assess any option the May have had. That to me was death by football.

I suppose my point is what was the difference between the game on Sunday and the rest of the games against the so called better teams we have played since Rodgers has come in as certainly away from home I can't remember us having that obvious desire to go and win the ball back.
What are the triggers for the players as at times we let them have the ball then it was like a switch was turned and we went hunting for the ball back.
And whether this is the way Rodgers will look at having us playing as an ideal because I for one think this style of football played on Sunday was exhilarating on the eye and think it would lead us to challenge at the top table yet again
Interesting post that.

I will say a couple of things. I don't see why any team would set out to play 'Tiki-Taka' in the Premier League. And Tiki Taka isn't really what teams like Arsenal, Swansea and Man City play by the way. I think you make a good point in terms of the way we played against Tottenham was pretty much how you would prefer to play with this team. When we've had Lucas and Gerrard together in midfield, there's neither the required quality to control the ball if a team presses, nor the ability to control space when we lose it. On Sunday, we were compact, disciplined (which I think is an understated part of our performance against Spurs), coordinated and aggressive. It very much suited us to attack and defend with intensity. And we finally had the balance in midfield

In terms of winning the ball back, the fact the team worked together so well and were compact helped our pressing so much. We played a mid block and didn't really press really high up the pitch but we did make it very difficult for the ball to be played through the middle third. You were asking what the triggers were - it varies but generally sideways passes can be, backwards passes can be, loose passes, player receiving the ball with their back to goal (and also if they try moving with the ball with their back to goal and move into different zones, they may end up being pressured by two or three players), one player pressuring and then the others going as well etc.

For me the main thing to take out of the game was the collectiveness. I'd rather start most games with a collective ability than adding in other players and losing that.
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Re: PhaseOfPlay on Spurs 0-5 Liverpool
« Reply #32 on: December 18, 2013, 01:05:29 pm »
I remember reading that Rodgers monitors fitness over 3 stages so that by the last third of the season you're firing on all cyclinders.

Do you think this has any relationship to the start of a proper pressing game - ie are we into stage two of the fitness plan?

I think Johnson unfortunately is one of those players who's distinctly average or very very good. There's no rhyme or reason to this as a bad game is just as likely to follow a MOTM performance. I guess that's the price you pay for those good days. I don't really have a problem with him, and when you look at how suspect Cissokho looked (who historically has a similar pedigree) then I think Glen is about our standard. His wage and deteriorating resale value may see him being offloaded before his performances do.

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Re: PhaseOfPlay on Spurs 0-5 Liverpool
« Reply #33 on: December 18, 2013, 01:17:19 pm »
I remember reading that Rodgers monitors fitness over 3 stages so that by the last third of the season you're firing on all cyclinders.

Do you think this has any relationship to the start of a proper pressing game - ie are we into stage two of the fitness plan?

I think Johnson unfortunately is one of those players who's distinctly average or very very good. There's no rhyme or reason to this as a bad game is just as likely to follow a MOTM performance. I guess that's the price you pay for those good days. I don't really have a problem with him, and when you look at how suspect Cissokho looked (who historically has a similar pedigree) then I think Glen is about our standard. His wage and deteriorating resale value may see him being offloaded before his performances do.

It's a nice notion but Henderson/Allen have always been able to press for a full 90minutes - Gerrard/Lucas can't, I think we are approaching the time where we play either Lucas or Gerrard as the pivot behind a pressing 2 of Allen and Henderson.. But would Gerrard be discipined? Lucas would be needed v's the big teams as his reading of the game in a defensive way is second to none - v's Spurs all he had to do was block off angles and track runners.

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Re: PhaseOfPlay on Spurs 0-5 Liverpool
« Reply #34 on: December 18, 2013, 01:18:21 pm »
Great post BOH.

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Re: PhaseOfPlay on Spurs 0-5 Liverpool
« Reply #35 on: December 18, 2013, 01:24:14 pm »
I remember reading that Rodgers monitors fitness over 3 stages so that by the last third of the season you're firing on all cyclinders.

Do you think this has any relationship to the start of a proper pressing game - ie are we into stage two of the fitness plan?

I think Johnson unfortunately is one of those players who's distinctly average or very very good. There's no rhyme or reason to this as a bad game is just as likely to follow a MOTM performance. I guess that's the price you pay for those good days. I don't really have a problem with him, and when you look at how suspect Cissokho looked (who historically has a similar pedigree) then I think Glen is about our standard. His wage and deteriorating resale value may see him being offloaded before his performances do.

One thing that Johnson has in his favour is he's very, very useful for the squad, being high quality on both flanks when the stars align, which happens at a rate not noticeably lower than any other FB in the league. If we strengthen in the midfield then it frees up Henderson as an option on the right, but it still leaves Johnson as a better attacking option than anyone on the left. Similarly if Kelly manages to keep his body together or Wisdom raises his game. Perhaps one management possibility would be to get one of these options working, then it leaves the option of "resting" Johnson to either allow him to recover his physical ability, or at least sharpen his concentration in case he's in danger of actually losing his place. This last possibility would be even more plausible if we were to enjoy some measure of success in his absence.
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Re: PhaseOfPlay on Spurs 0-5 Liverpool
« Reply #36 on: December 18, 2013, 02:46:19 pm »
Wow.

I rarely post, but thank you for that, POP now known as BOH.   ;)

I have to say though that for a short while at the beginning of the 2nd half, I feared we were going to revert to our "switched-off in the 2nd half" mode.  Either Spurs came out with more fight and effort or we dropped off a little, because I felt during that period that we weren't pressing as hard/often as we did in the first half.

Spurs may not have got a shot on target, but I thought there were maybe 2-3 potentially close shaves during that period. Yes, Sakho almost scored, but they came close, too.

I think after Sakho's effort we shook off some of the lethargy. Soon after that, Paulinho was sent off and they collapsed while we smelled blood and went for the kill.

I thought our play overall was breathtaking and just filled me with a sense of pride and great hope for the future (grinning the whole day!), but I wonder what would have happened if the red card had not been given.

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Re: PhaseOfPlay on Spurs 0-5 Liverpool
« Reply #37 on: December 18, 2013, 02:52:33 pm »
Gerrard as a forward? No legs to press and harry. He can't put in a shift like Sterling did at Spurs, for example. There'd be even more running for him.

The only place for Gerrard to contribute in the future is as a centre-half. Why not return to the 3-5-2, with Gerrard sitting between Skrtel and Sakho and carrying the ball out into midfield or making those killer passes from deep to pass over teams like Southampton that press aggressively high up the pitch? Also, against teams playing one man up top or sitting deep in their own half, he'd be free to push far up and dictate play.

I'm not the only one that thinks this could be a good idea.

"I look at Steven and I think he can play as a number two centre-half later in his career," the Reds boss said. "You play against teams where they've got one up [front] and I think he can play as a right-sided centre-half."

I don't know if I'd want to see a Gerrard/Sakho pairing in the back, but as part of a 3 man defense with liberty to push up? It would be devastating against some of our opposition.

But whether or not Gerrard would want to play as a centre-half/libero role, that's another question entirely.

For this season, against weaker opposition and in home games, I'd like to see him take Lucas' role and sit behind Allen and Jordan and dictate play from deep, and keep central.

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Re: PhaseOfPlay on Spurs 0-5 Liverpool
« Reply #38 on: December 18, 2013, 02:55:09 pm »
Gerrard as a forward? No legs to press and harry. He can't put in a shift like Sterling did at Spurs, for example. There'd be even more running for him.

The only place for Gerrard to contribute in the future is as a centre-half. Why not return to the 3-5-2, with Gerrard sitting between Skrtel and Sakho and carrying the ball out into midfield or making those killer passes from deep to pass over teams like Southampton that press aggressively high up the pitch? Also, against teams playing one man up top or sitting deep in their own half, he'd be free to push far up and dictate play.

I'm not the only one that thinks this could be a good idea.

"I look at Steven and I think he can play as a number two centre-half later in his career," the Reds boss said. "You play against teams where they've got one up [front] and I think he can play as a right-sided centre-half."

I don't know if I'd want to see a Gerrard/Sakho pairing in the back, but as part of a 3 man defense with liberty to push up? It would be devastating against some of our opposition.

But whether or not Gerrard would want to play as a centre-half/libero role, that's another question entirely.

For this season, against weaker opposition and in home games, I'd like to see him take Lucas' role and sit behind Allen and Jordan and dictate play from deep, and keep central.

If the manager plays Gerrard at CB, then that just smells of trying to find a way for Gerrard to still starts games because he is too big to put on the bench.

As usual, excellent post by POP. Agree with everything said.

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Re: PhaseOfPlay on Spurs 0-5 Liverpool
« Reply #39 on: December 18, 2013, 03:11:20 pm »
If the manager plays Gerrard at CB, then that just smells of trying to find a way for Gerrard to still starts games because he is too big to put on the bench.

As usual, excellent post by POP. Agree with everything said.

kind of agree with the gerrard one there.

No doubt his quality in midfield is still needed but gerrard as a player should know when he is detriment to the team. 

Some parts in the Tottenham game I was really crying out for the gerrard hollywood pass when we were passing sideways and backwards but the energy and the intricate passing play of our midfield trio and attack kind of makes up for the hollywood balls that gerrard brings.