Topic: RAWK Round Table Hull City AFC 3-1 LFC

[Hinesy]

Frustrating and we were tired and Coutinho has much more of an impact than Sterling, even if they have different roles. Also we hate playing Steve Bruce teams and his fat headed voodoo over us.
With Sturridge out for 6 weeks and a midfield that looked at times disinterested, what now for Brendan Rodgers in the near future? This wasn't a bad day at the office, it was more than that in some ways and less than that in others, we lacked creativity in attack if Suarez isn't able to do his magic, and until Coutinho came on, Henderson, Sterling, even Moses, looked utterly unsure what to do at the crucial moment.

Annoying. But more pressing, we had a chance to keep up at the top of the table and we have to be ready and fit for the Christmas schedule.

What would you do?

[Hazell]

The lack of creativity hurt us a lot today. We were ok in the first half I thought but Moses and Sterling were poor and Suarez was a little too greedy and without Sturridge, he had no one to play off of. We didn't really step it up in the second half and overall, we didn't really create enough to deserve victory. Coutinho was a big miss today in that respect and Moses didn't really step up to the plate.

And though I think Skrtel was unlucky for both goals and doesn't deserve the pelters that are coming his way, I would have hoped to see Sakho and Agger play. I think that's potentially our best partnership overall but they haven't stared together. Rodgers got the team wrong today I think and yeah, Hull's goals were lucky and I don't think we deserved to lose but it doesn't detract from it being a bad performance.

So a lot went wrong today, mostly of our own making and Rodgers's selection didn't work out. There was also a lack of urgency in the team and that was the most disappointing thing. I hope Rodgers gives them a kick up the arse and we rectify that, and the kind of team we're looking to play, as soon as possible.

Edit: Just read Rodgers saying that Coutinho wasn't fully fit, so that's why he didn't start. It's obviously going to be a problem when two of our better players aren't playing but thinking about that match a little more, what was even more concerning was the lack of coherency in the team. I'm hoping it's a one off (although there's a lot things we've needed to do better prior to today anyway) and we can get back on track midweek.

[Vulmea]

Very frustrating but not unexpected - slow slow tempo, no real pupose to our play, forced back again and again , it was a game where the plan was for Suarez to win it for us I guess or hope they tired and made a mistake, it looked like wishful thinking rather than purposeful and postive play - the points where there to be taken - we fluffed our lines- as we have so many times over recent years -
 
we have to force our style on the opposition,  instead as soon as any side shows commitment and purpose ours melts away - this isn't clever tactical play, retain the ball, wear out the opposition chasing,  its half arsed, lack of options and a failure to work hard to create those options - it also seems constrained by a tactic which doesn't go long when it should, and fails to turn the opposition back four because nobody is running in behind  - all in all dismal

even when we needed a goal we had no target to hit, nobody in the box, nobody running beyond, the wide men weren't , Johnson had a stinker, I dont agree we dont have the players or creativity to beat Hull - what we didn't have was a good enough plan or anywhere near enough aggression, we needed to be on the front foot and show we have better players than they did instead we let their aggression and their ability to work hard dominate proceedings - sure we could have possession in our half or 40 yards from goal but if you were Steve Bruce you'd have loved the way we set up and the way we played perfect for them - genuinely awful - why didn't moses just play alongside Suarez - why didn't  Agger play and create an extra man in midfield (because we were scared of their tactics apparently) - why didn't - ah forget it - Rodgers just as last week is overthinking - 


if the glass was half empty last week, theirs just some stale slops at the bottom this week

[killer-heels]

What do people think of our midfields performance in the second half? I am not blaming them for defeat but it seemed an age getting the ball up the field and out of our own half. Should the midfield have controlled that situation better?

[Yorkykopite]

The tempo WAS ridiculously slow. The fault lay principally with the defence. I don't know what's wrong with Glen Johnson put he seems to be working at half speed since the Everton game - a catastrophic loss of form from someone I consider to be an elite player. The remaining three defenders, charged with bringing the ball out, are all ponderous at the best of times.

Kolo Toure's a nice fella, a really nice fella, a really, really nice fella and I love the fact that he gives a good interview and that he's a good spirit to have around Melwood. But a Liverpool first-team player? Really? Ten years ago perhaps. But not now. He's meant to bring experience. He brings panic instead.

Skrtel doesn't need much excuse to panic. But having Kolo alongside him presses all the red buttons. He's a screaming switchboard of insecurity. At one point on my stream the commentator commended Skrtel for having an excellent game. Blimey. I know it doesn't take much to get me on Skrtel's back. Years of seeing him miscue passes and chicken out of aerial challenges have made me a nervous wreck as a spectator. It was awful watching him trying to construct stuff today and painful to know he's been with us now for so long. Last season I honestly thought Rodgers had seen through him. But the lad unaccountably holds down a regualr starting position, regardless of how many goals we concede with him there (it's a lot). And regardless of how slowly he moves the ball.

Jon Flanno. Heroic against Everton - at least until the Barca lad got on and messed him around at the end. But today I felt for him. No left foot. And this meant he was of absolutely no help when it came to building from the back. The poor lad was cutting in every time and that made it easy for Hull to defend. He was also allowing his winger to cross whenever he wanted, so determined was he not to let his opponet attack his weaker foot. Left backs with right feet? Don't want to see another. What's this Brad Smith like?

Added to which we have a Mignolet problem when it comes to attacking. Goalies spend an awful lot of time distributing the ball. In a sense it's their main job. And Simon's distribution is pretty average (his long kicking is flighty rubbish to be frank). I think we miss Pepe Reina a lot here. Mig's the better shot-stopper to be sure, but he doesn't help us to create like Pepe did.

So that was what happened to our tempo. Fundamentally it was a problem of a weak defence. Hull had an easy job keeping tight on everyone else once they realised that it was taking so long for our back four to recycle the ball.

The others? Off days for both of our best players: Suarez never looked at the races. Lucas was uncharacteristically sloppy.

Sterling will get a lot of flak which is sad. He's a player without confidence and seems to be letting diligence eclipse his other abilities. What happened to the carefree lad who made his debut under Kenny? Nevertheless I thought he pulled his game together a bit towards the end of the first half. Certainly it's wonderful to see someone for Liverpool carry the ball at such high speed. He also has a vicious turn and - unlike everyone else bar Luis - he took the responsibility TO turn when he had the chance. It was a beautiful run and pass to Suarez at the end of the first half too. One of the very few occasions we cut the Hull defence open. Luis probably should have scored.

Henderson? Poor stuff again. He loves closing down the keeper. Adores it. He doesn't like the ball enough to play for Liverpool though.

Brendan Rodgers. He's the right man for Liverpool. But he needs for himself what he keeps saying he values most in others. Courage. Play to your strengths boss. Put the accent back on pace and skill. Agger and Sakho at the back. Coutinho in advanced midfield. Let's see what Alberto has to offer.

Finally, hat-tip to Curtis Davies. He defended beautifully for Hull City. No slide tackles it's true (so the Skrtel admirers will probably not have noticed him) but a brilliant sense of positioning and a determination to hound Suarez throughout the game. Sadly his yellow means he misses the trip to Arsenal.

 

[Azi]

for me its been the same thing over and over again our midfield doesn't work i said in on another couple of forums and was laughed at but for me Gerrard now has to play upfront if studge isn't playing in games like these otherwise you end up having Suarez being isolated and then slowly coming deeper and deeper until hes coming back to the half way line almost to start another attack with someone else up top he has that out-ball rather than having to take on the whole defense himself. Moses was shocking today as for sterling he looked like a player short of minutes

what concerns me now is that we're into December and we still haven't got a settled back 4, we have agger skrtel toure and sakho its pretty much one plays one week and then is dropped and repeat Rodgers said that toure was brought in to defend against hulls aerial threat but am sorry we should not be worrying about them we should feel confident enough that even with their height advantage we have enough to play our two best cbs (Agger and Sahko) skrtel looked like he was going to shit himself every time he was involved today for me Rodgers tried to be too smart rather than playing it simple he over complicated it and it blew up in our face

by hook or by crook we're still in the top 4 and we're 1/3rd of the way in so its not that bad long way to go if you ask most teams in the hunt for the top 4 the only team really who is getting the results they need is arsenal the rest of the "top sides" are still dropping points today was a brilliant chance to give us a gap but their will be other chances we just need to make sure we stop making the other teams better than they actually are

[PhaseOfPlay]

Frustrating and we were tired and Coutinho has much more of an impact than Sterling, even if they have different roles. Also we hate playing Steve Bruce teams and his fat headed voodoo over us.
With Sturridge out for 6 weeks and a midfield that looked at times disinterested, what now for Brendan Rodgers in the near future? This wasn't a bad day at the office, it was more than that in some ways and less than that in others, we lacked creativity in attack if Suarez isn't able to do his magic, and until Coutinho came on, Henderson, Sterling, even Moses, looked utterly unsure what to do at the crucial moment.

Annoying. But more pressing, we had a chance to keep up at the top of the table and we have to be ready and fit for the Christmas schedule.

What would you do?

I would seriously consider going back to a 3-5-2. From a management standpoint, either Rodgers has to tell one of the defenders they are being moved on, or play the back three with one spare. Having two spare defenders seems to be causing him indecision, and this indecision is filtering through to the team. He also has to sort out midfield, and that means confronting the Gerrard problem. Ultimately, this will be the biggest hurdle to get over. He is the club captain, the club legend, and his set-piece delivery has been back on form this season. But in open play, he is probably the most guilty player of all in terms of changing our style of play. Not because he plays long passes - he plays less per game so far than last season - but because he isn't responding to the needs of the game. When we're looking a bit sloppy in the attacking third, then you abandon the through ball and work it from side to side try to create an overload. That creates the space to drive through the middle on the dribble. Either way, you need your main midfield distributor to put their foot on the ball and allow players to get into position. Instead, today, without Sturridge, we were still playing the long ball even though we didn't have the players to make the most of them, and Suarez is not a target player. Aspas might have been a better option if he was further along in his recovery, than either of Moses or Sterling, but this game was about sloppiness and lack of effort, and the long balls didn't allow us to get a grip on the game.

Conversely, the defenders HAD to play the long ball today, because they didn't have the personnel to take the ball into midfield and create something, and there was no movement ahead of them. Agger and Sakho, of course, were prominent in their absence. In the pre-match thread, I responded to some posters concerned about the physicality of Hull and their set-pieces, because I thought they were not something to worry about as much as people thought. Apparently Rodgers sided with that frame of mind, and it looks like he selected the central two with that as a concern. But that was a very cautious way of thinking. We needed to be aggressive in our intent, and force Hull to deal with us. Instead, we tried to nullify the game completely by starving them of the ball, but that only works when all 11 players are switched on to a possession game, and are willing to work for it. Our players weren't.

In the end, we were left looking starkly at a number of problems that have been mentioned throughout the season, and which Rodgers needs to address very quickly, before they become an albatross around the mananger's neck. Those problems are:

- Gerrard doesn't have the power to play box-to-box any more, although he insists on doing so. In doing so, he becomes unable to track his man

- Sturridge is out for 2 months, worse case scenario

- The fullbacks are off-form, and Enrique is injured

- We have a surfeit of central defenders, and only two of them can bring the ball into midfield

- We are vulnerable through the middle, still, to direct attacks when we play a back four

- We need to get Coutinho on the field as much as possible

For me, this all points to one viable solution, that at least alleviates all of the above problems: we have to return to the 3-5-2. Sure, we conceded goals with it, but we also created more and scored more - and as of now, we've lost less goals than with a back four. It solves the defender conundrum because we can play out two best central defenders plus one other, in all games. It solves the forward conundrum because we can still play two forwards, but we can also experiment, as someone mentioned, with a Gerrard and Suarez combination where both players are shorn of the majority of their defensive duties. It gets Coutinho on the field in a midfield three. And it gives the fullbacks the support they need to be able to push forward aggressively the whole game. Sure, we'll end up as a 5-3-2 in some games, but we looked a lot better in this formation than we have in any of the back four versions this season, for my money.

This game was not really lost on tactics per se. We lost it in the selection of the starting team, the formation they played in, the lethargy of the players, but also the massive gap left by two of our most limited players (one technically, the other by age) at the back and the lack of thrust up front. A temporary 3-5-2 with Gerrard up front would give both of those players free reign to worry about goals, give Coutinho mobile targets to play off, and give us the chance to see a more balanced central midfield in front of a defensive arrangement that gets the most out of the defenders we have, rather than Rodgers trying to pick 'n' mix the four starters according to the games, when really there is probably only one combination of two that works. For Norwich, we could go for something like this:

Mignolet
Skrtel----Agger----Sakho
Johnson---------------------------Cissokho
Lucas----Allen
-------Coutinho
Gerrard
---Suarez

Or

Mignolet
Skrtel----Agger----Sakho
Johnson-----------Lucas--------------Cissokho
Gerrard------Coutinho
Aspas---Suarez

Rodgers should be looking at maximising the team for the good of the league campaign, rather than trying to shoehorn players into a formation that is unbalanced. That won't prevent lethargic displays, of course. But it might put the players into a shape which plays to their natural strengths, gives them better reference points for attacking, and force other teams to adapt to our shape, rather than us adapting to theirs.

[Yorkykopite]

That's a good post PoP. Allen's a bold choice, given the Everton game. But I'd definitely go along with it. There was a lot of crap taked about him after the Derby. In reality he's looked smart and enterprising in the few minutes he's had this season.

[Aristotle]

That's a good post PoP. Allen's a bold choice, given the Everton game. But I'd definitely go along with it. There was a lot of crap taked about him after the Derby. In reality he's looked smart and enterprising in the few minutes he's had this season.

I said it before the game, during the game and after the game. Allen should've started today instead of Henderson. Especially with Moses and Sterling making their first respective starts since October 5th and 19th respectively. We needed someone who could hold onto the ball and keep it in the team. After Moses' abysmal half - I thought he was lucky not to get yanked at half time - it was even more evident. Suarez today looked alright. But after his trip to S-America, getting kicked 6 ways to Sunday in the derby, he wasn't ready to get Hodgson'd. Long balls, surrounded by opposition defenders (we'd better have shut the fuck up about Sturridge and Coutinho, so as to not let Bruce set up a 3 man defence knowing it was only Suarez).

As for Gerrard. PoP has set it up better than I can do, this close to midnight. I don't really understand the situation. Because gerrard seems to play in his own little world. It's like the other two, whoever they are, in midfield are playing catch up. You never know which Gerrard you are going to get and it looks to be upsetting the rythm of play a whole lot. His own refusal to face father time is also causing him more harm than any opposition midfielder. Constantly catching up to the play instead of letting the play come to him is ruining his fitness after the first hour of the game. Sooner, with games in close succession. If it's a role that Rodgers want in that midfield then there is a a glaring upgrade out there in Cabaye. He offers set pieces, distribution on top of being a mobile version of whatever Gerrard is doing this season. As a like-for-like replacement, he is a 5 years younger version of the 33 year old Gerrard. If it's a different type of player we're after, then whomever that is must be brought in, no later than Jan 1st. This system, whatever it is, isn't working. Lucas is a metronome stuck in limbo. Henderson is doing the water carrying in a desert and Gerrard looks like a great thinker with dimentia. A once magnificent specimen and example to all is now left to roam the halls as people whisper "isn't that the formerly great ...?"

I do find Gerrard's set piece contribution astonishing though. He's hit them more consistently threatening this winter than he has since 2006. It's a joy to behold, but at the end of the day it still feels a bit, 'too little - too late'.

[Col]

Just a quick note about the speed of play, and lack of comfort on the ball - at one point, Skrtel took eight touches to receive a pass from Mignolet, turn, and pass the ball into midfield.

Not three or four where perhaps one or two would do, but eight.

That's borderline criminal. We will not progress with certain players in the team - players who just do not want the ball and cannot work with both feet.

I really hope that behind the scenes, we're working on building a partnership between Sakho and Agger, as they're the two best defenders we've got. They're also the most mobile, and most technically proficient. The issue at the moment is that they both like to play on the left hand side. It does make a difference - one that's larger than perhaps you'd think, but not so big that it can't be overcome with a bit of work on the training ground and some time together on the field. That our 18m summer signing hasn't yet started at centre back in a back 4 with our vice captain strikes me as odd.

I'm wondering if the plan is to develop the Agger - Sakho partnership behind closed doors for now, and if that means playing Toure and Skrtel together at times then so be it - it doesn't matter much if they lose confidence or form by the end of the year as they're expendable in the long-term.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Just a quick note about the speed of play, and lack of comfort on the ball - at one point, Skrtel took eight touches to receive a pass from Mignolet, turn, and pass the ball into midfield.

Not three or four where perhaps one or two would do, but eight.

That's borderline criminal. We will not progress with certain players in the team - players who just do not want the ball and cannot work with both feet.

I really hope that behind the scenes, we're working on building a partnership between Sakho and Agger, as they're the two best defenders we've got. They're also the most mobile, and most technically proficient. The issue at the moment is that they both like to play on the left hand side. It does make a difference - one that's larger than perhaps you'd think, but not so big that it can't be overcome with a bit of work on the training ground and some time together on the field. That our 18m summer signing hasn't yet started at centre back in a back 4 with our vice captain strikes me as odd.

I'm wondering if the plan is to develop the Agger - Sakho partnership behind closed doors for now, and if that means playing Toure and Skrtel together at times then so be it - it doesn't matter much if they lose confidence or form by the end of the year as they're expendable in the long-term.

The thing that encourages me, though, is that Sakho has mentioned in an interview that he was trained to play with both feet. So maybe, if you're right, they're working on his orientation on the field, and getting him used to opening out to the opposite side than he's used to?

[Col]

The thing that encourages me, though, is that Sakho has mentioned in an interview that he was trained to play with both feet. So maybe, if you're right, they're working on his orientation on the field, and getting him used to opening out to the opposite side than he's used to?

I really hope it's the case. They may have to go in to some serious depth to fully make it work - I know when Ryan Giggs took on more of a central position with United, for example, their medical staff had to re-train aspects of his vision and reaction times, as his body was so used to seeing the play develop on his right hand side (half-turned) and transition to his left instead of vice-versa. Training the ability to naturally check your unfavoured shoulder and manipulate your hip position into an anti-half turn would presumably not be an easy task once the body has stopped growing - even if his touch and playing ability is fine on his right-hand side when facing the play, getting there might not be as easy as we'd hope from an outsiders viewpoint.

[BazC]

What do people think of our midfields performance in the second half? I am not blaming them for defeat but it seemed an age getting the ball up the field and out of our own half. Should the midfield have controlled that situation better?

Slow, lethargic, ran out of ideas, no creativity.

All Hull did (and needed to do) was restrict the options when our defenders had the ball. They'd have 2 men over of course, packed in midfield, and they knew our CBs would be lost when trying to find the forward passes. Not sure if that also points to a lack of movement - the wide players especially, but if a team shuts off our CBs from the CMs, our game's suddenly got a massive thorn in it. Lucas and Gerrard picking the ball up from the CBs toes isn't going to happen, and we're left with Skrtel trying to create from the back.

Still, one option there is just to bypass the midfield, whack it long to our forwards/attackers. Firstly, as yorky says, Mignolet's distribution isn't that great and secondly, none of the forward players had any interest in challenging Hull's for such percentage balls. So that plan was doomed to fail as well. I think we did try that a few times, but then started to play one twos between Toure, Skrtel and Mignolet again.

I'm hoping to see a lot of new faces in the starting line up on Wednesday. I'd like to see a CM of Allen, Lucas and Gerrard (although this may be one of the games he doesn't start), and Sakho back in the side. Agger of course shouldn't be on the bench either. The thing I like about Sakho is he demands our midfielders to receive the ball under pressure. None of them really like it apart from Coutinho and Alberto - if we had a couple of players with that mindset in midfield and a CB who had the confidence in his own ability to play those sorts of tight/accurate passes forward on Sunday, I think we'd have made a better go of it. But even then, the focus of those plays would still have been Suarez, who looked like he was injured (I can't think of any other reason for his lethargy, he's normally busting a gut and relentlessly so), and Moses, who doesn't seem to want to pass the ball first time. Always looking for the dribbling opportunity. Which is fine if he's out wide and isolating fullbacks, but not so much if he's in the middle of the park and needs to move the ball as quickly as he can - it's why he was ineffective as Coutinho's replacement earlier in the season. Saying all that, a good start for him would be to actually give a shit.

The small positives for me were Flanagan, Coutinho coming on and instantly looking to get on the ball and make things happen and erm, we didn't concede more as we probably should have done. Mignolet with another one on one save at the end, would have made it 4-1.

Norwich up next. Hopefully Coutinho's ready to start and Suarez can get over whatever it is he has. It may be a good opportunity to see what Aspas is made of - it's suddenly a pressured game, but we're still facing a team that'll be around the relegation places, at home. We need someone to step up in Sturridge's absence, and it evidently doesn't look like it's going to be Moses or Sterling. He could get his first goal in this one.

[Number 7]

My views from the post-match thread last night...

Incredibly disappointing performance and result. Especially if you put it in the context of losing to a team that got beaten by Palace the week before, who ended the game with 10 men. Hull played well, they deserved their victory, but they really aren't very good. But we made it awfully easy for them. Apart from Gerrard's goal we never looked like scoring.

We weren't at the races from about 5 minutes in. Everyone looked lethargic and just off the pace. There were too many misplaced passes, and absolutely no fluidity. There were a couple of players early on that were incredibly sloppy and careless. Johnson was one of them. I really like Johnson as a footballer, but good grief when he's not on can he look sluggish.

For me the team selection was wrong to begin with. I'm not really sure why Sakho isn't playing but we spent a lot of money for him, and he's played pretty well so why he didn't start is a bit baffling to me. 6 goals conceded in the last 2 games. And 3 today from a team that has barely scored all season. I think it's time we tried Agger with Sakho. If 2 right footed centerbacks can play left and right in defence, why can 2 left footed ones not? Especially since they are your 2 best defenders.

Why, when your number 10 is out do you not play his most natural and only replacement in that position? If Alberto is not going to start then play Allen in basically the same position he played in against Everton. Look, I am totally behind Rodgers but surely those were selection mistakes today.

Moving to Sterling and Moses. Lately, Moses has been complaining about not getting enough playing time. Well, if he's going to perform like that it isn't really a huge surprise. Haven't been impressed with him since he got here, and I don't think he's going to cut the mustard here. Looks incredibly laboured at times. As for Sterling, one moment in the first half epitomized his performances this season. He had a great chance to lay on the ball for Suarez after getting clear on the right, but the ball failed to get near Suarez. The quality of the final ball just isn't good enough. I don't know where it has gone wrong for him, whether it's a mental thing or he simply isn't at the required level for this league and for a Liverpool team. I'm not really sure whether he will recapture that form when he first burst on to the scene last season.

We are going to miss Sturridge, there is no denying that. Not only does he score goals, but he holds up the ball extremely well. There is a significant downgrade in quality with having Moses or Sterling instead. We're also desperately missing Enrique. There is no one who can offer what he does - in defence and attack. Flanagan has played well but offers hardly anything going forward.

The fact is that we haven't got Sturridge now until January, and Coutinho wasn't fit to start. So, the players that replace them have to be of near enough or the same quality. And if you look at Moses and Sterling they are most definitely not. I've said all I wanted to say about Moses, and Sterling looks like a deer caught in headlights at the moment and shouldn't be starting PL games.

We had Coutinho's most natural replacement sitting on the bench in Alberto, and another player who Rodgers has said is better suited playing further up in Allen sitting on the bench. I still believe both Alberto and Allen will come good, but the fact is that there is currently no one of Coutinho or Sturridge' quality.

Therefore, IMO Rodgers squad comment is a valid one. There isn't deep enough quality in the squad.

Obviously, you can't write off our top 4 hopes off the back of one game, and we actually still are in the top 4, but if games like that become par for the course we'll be out of there before you can even blink. Need to find some consistency over the coming games, and quickly.

What would I do? Select the players that are best suited to the type of game we're playing. I would get Sakho back in the side. If fit I would start with Aspas up top alongside Suarez, if he isn't fit I would get Allen back in the middle. I would start Cissokho for both home games.

[TheDarkKnight]

Unfortunately I don't think there is much that can be done to improve us until the transfer window/Sturridge and Enrique returning from injury. This month is going to be a long one, and probably feel a bit like the first few months of last season did, pre-Sturridge and Coutinho.

Things that I definitely think would help is some stability in the team, particularly in defence. Pick a partnership at the back and stick with it for a few games, it should be enough to get us by at home to Norwich, West Ham and Cardiff and maybe having the chances to grow in chemistry prior to the three tough away matches. For those home games I would like to see Alberto or Allen used instead of Henderson, they both offer more with the ball but Henderson could be vital in those away games.

We can't afford to lose Suarez or Coutinho to injury this month though, that's for sure. We can cope in most games without Sturridge but if either of those join him on the injury list then even games like Cardiff at home might be frustrating, much like yesterday's.

Our away form is a concern. Only two victories on the road thus far this season, at Aston Villa who are renowned under Lambert for being better away, and at Sunderland who hadn't so much as taken a point in their home games prior to our visit. A loss at Arsenal, understandable. A draw at Everton, likewise (even though we were screwed over by bad officiating). Generally speaking, draws at Swansea and Newcastle are respectable results but the Swans look poor this season (although I accept we missed Suarez in that game, not helped by Coutinho picking up an injury with 40 minutes left) and we were up against ten men at the Toon for around 50 minutes, yet conceded a silly set-piece goal second half and it cost us. No excuse for the Hull result. But it isn't just those results, we haven't played well away. First half at Villa was as good as it's got on the road for us this season really. A world away from the fluency shown at the Etihad last season, and in the wins at Newcastle and Fulham towards the back end of the campaign.

Inconsistency is the other issue, and that's nothing new, but you would hope it may have been ironed out by now. Since we disposed of the bottom two sides (Sunderland and Crystal Palace) two months back, we haven't managed to win two games on the bounce, infact we have only won two games since then; two very good wins against West Brom and Fulham, granted, but not good enough in the grand scheme of things.

Is mentality still a problem, too? We hear all this stuff about Dr Peters, and he seems to be very good at what he does, but there are still games where the players look like they couldn't give a fuck. Glen Johnson and Victor Moses' attitudes yesterday were embarrassing. It's a cliché, but you don't get easy games in this league, and that's more true than ever this season given how open it is. The sooner certain players have that drummed in to them, the better.

I'm still fairly optimistic for the season, providing we make a couple of good signings in January. We absolutely must get to January in a decent position though, and that means winning all three of our home games this month and hopefully nabbing a point away in one of the toughies.

[sattapaartridge]

Does anyone think that our lack of compactness is costing us? If Henderson kept closer to Gerrard, Moses and Suarez, he could have been a better link between midfield and attack. We know that Lucas and Gerrard arent going to move much but Henderson could have shown deeper, and looked to play 1-2's with the wingers. I thought the wingers were too wide too, so the space between gerrard/henderson and moses/sterling was pretty big. short passes werent available.

Did we try to play counter-attack football without the right personnel? feed the ball to the quick wide players quickly and they'll open up this defence? Although Sterling is lightweight, i thought he showed enough intelligence to come infield and get involved. But I was surprised as to how ineffective Moses was. He couldnt get past his man. His passing into Suarez was wayward, so we couldnt keep the ball good enough in the final third.

Defensive shambles. I do agree with some fans that centrebacks shouldnt be the place where we should be rotating, it should be central midfield. But seriously, what needs to happen to get Sahko and Agger playing together? We played 2 right footed defenders, maybe its time to play 2 left footed ball playing centre-halves, one devastating in the air.

Agree with yorkykopite too, Lucas was sloppy, so was Gerrard, so was Suarez, but it seemed to me that Lucas was the player who had the most space, he wasn't pressed as much. Could he have ran with the ball when a pass wasnt on, or was too far?

I do worry about our lack of precise passing, I wonder how much of it is due to players or tactics. One things for sure, Rodgers hasnt learnt, or is finding the midfield problem a very very difficult task.

[robgomm]

A negative team selection, albeit with an underlying logic to get at their full-backs. It was a selection which at once exposed our lack of depth and showed up pretty much every weakness we have from a panicky back line to a midfield that is neither one thing or the other to a forward line reliant on Suarez as the first half of last season. These weaknesses don't define the side this season but yesterday were the main story.

We saw probably the worst of us this season (and for a long time) on the ball, as safe and as insipid an effort as I can recall. I can remember one excellent move first half. That aside we saw Skrtl and Toure passing to each other umpteen times, Gerrard directing them to hit long while he himself was as safe as you'll see him, barely a penetrating pass all day. Even Lucas strayed to carelessness, again left hanging by his midfield colleagues, who challenge high leaving a huge space for counters. The defence stays back on its haunches. The full-backs offer little, Flanagan was manful and did a solid job defensively but Johnson was the killer - long ball after long ball in an attempt to get Hull back to front. It didn't work and how many times did you see him near the opposition penalty area? The back line passed to each other, the midfield did not demand the ball and when they got it were pressed by Hull immediately. In the end we were cautious, ponderous and overcaution breeds carelessness. That was us yesterday.

As for individuals:

Moses, Sterling, Suarez is a front line I didn't expect to see this season and don't expect to see again. Do they train together? I'm not convinced. Sterling had a better game than he gets credit for but he is low on confidence and nobody seemed to have much confidence in him. Suarez toiled, duelling aeirally with big centre-backs while Moses set up Hull's first with a barmy dribble gone wrong and barely redeemed himself after. They didn't really connect, there was no pattern and no precision.

Poor Jordan, advanced midfield this week and as energetic as ever. I even saw him pump his fist second half but nobody really took any notice. The lad has a great attitude, seen week in week out, but for all that he's not going to create chances from behind the striker with any frequency. He is pretty much the symbol of our confused midfield: one week he's central, bounding forward and harrying the opposition; next week he's on the right, bounding forward and harrying; he's even played right back - he'd play anywhere and bound and harry every time. He's no good shunted from role to role to accomodate what? Allen against Everton, Moses/Sterling today. Henderson in a clear role offers more than them and Rodgers either needs to fix his role or bench him, this in between is doing him no good.

Defensively we saw a bizarro world of more successful tackles against each other for Hull's second goal than against an opposition player. Skrtl and Toure would be, what, fourth choice centre-back pairing? A bemusing, terribly cautious decision and PhasesOfHay rightly points out Rodgers' indecision and its effect on our team with regard to centre-backs. Skrtl, as yorky says, hailed to heaven by the commentators for doing what he does best but causing fits for what he doesn't and what the commentators don't see. A back three is his haven or he should not be in the team. The biggest defensive issue, though, is that mentioned earlier and it's the midfield. Fixing that requires some bold management.

Going forward, this is a blip and everything went wrong. Horrible, frustrating and, as the man in the pub shouted "FUCKING WANK!" (I wasn't sure if he was making a statement or a demand) but not a defining moment. What will define us is how we respond, I expect a different team again versus Norwich and I fully expect a win. Suarez needs Coutinho, nobody needs the Moses of yesterday and the whole team needs to move 15 yards up the pitch. Let's blister them and get back on track.

[princeoftherocks]

I don't usually post in these - I leave it to the folks who know stuff about football - however, after yesterday's post match reaction I had to have a say...

This was a one off result, one which Rodgers should learn from, because this was all about tactics from him.  We all knew it was gonna be shithouse tactics from bruce, so why didn't Brendan react?

My thought was that Brendan supposed he was gonna out-football hull.  However, after witnessing only minutes into the game their gk kick a free kick into our box, and then everyone of them running down trying to get their heads on it, it was apparent that to beat them we were going to have to fight fire with fire. 

Everyone one of their free kicks was like a fucking rugby touch finder.  first and third goals were flukes.  They were lucky.

There.  I've said my piece.

[itsgunnabebarnes!]

It's not the results that get me anymore its the performances. This was a bad as it gets. Players who are clearly not good enough and too many players who do not contribute to a game.

Moses, lazy, slack on the ball, sloppy with the ball and alround everything you would expect from a money grabbing rent boy.

Sterling, out of his depth . They with Suarez are our goal threats! No wonder we did not look like scoring. People on here exaggerate how good some of ours are.

The midfield, flat, slow with the ball and lacking any quality.

Which leads me on to my biggest gripe, urgency.
Urgency when they have the ball... Not a thing. Urgency when we have the ball..... Nope one paced laboured crap. Urgency to get the ball in play... Throw ins, corners and goal kicks, nothing.

It's shocking.

Suarez did not help things by squeezing the play by dropping so deep. Coutinio..... Has he actually played well this season?

Toure, the cult status this guy has baffles me. He performances are actually poor.

So much over hyped averageness.

Why it took 20 mins of the second half for Rodgers to see it wasn't working is beyond me.

Alround as bad as it gets. We still have the same problems, shit midfield and shit wingers. Least we've upgraded centreback with sakho , if only to warm the bench.

[dirks digglers]

It was a depressing reality check that in truth we'd been setting ourselves up for for a while. While a degree of pragmatism has served us relatively well this season so far, albeit with the toughest tests still ahead, I miss the style of football we were playing in the latter stages of last season. It felt like we had a strategy and an evolution was taking place, now I'm not 100% sure. We've wallpapered over the cracks up to now but hopefully BR will re-evaluate now and push on.

Some points have been made in this thread quite rightly highlighting areas that have clearly been issues this season. Mignolet's distribution isn't great - far from it. It's causing us problems, as is the indecisive make up of the back four. Rodgers doesn't fancy Cissokho, and I don't much either on the evidence of what we've seen, and his demotion looks pretty final. But at least he's left footed. Flanno isn't a left back in games where we need width and attacking potency from our fullbacks. Sakho has been the most impressive physical one on one defender in my opinion. Yes he has me on the edge of my seat, but he is dominant and we need to play him I think. Preferably with Agger, the one defender who has the balance composure and quality to bring the ball out from the back, something we need. In fairness to Toure he can do that too at times, but he probably shouldn't be first choice at this point in time. I like Johnson, for all his frustrations, but again yesterday he was far from his best. But he is currently the best we've got.

The Gerrard conundrum needs solving, but he creates most of our goals, generally from set pieces. So what to do? I'm still surprised Rodgers hasn't tried him further forward as a matter of expediency, and the question is, why? When Coutinho is injured we just don't function properly as a coherent passing unit, which is slightly disturbing. And when Coutinho has been injured we've played Moses there and then yesterday, which was crying out for someone with a touch of control, Allen or Alberto or even Gerrard, we went for a badly misfiring 4-3-3 with Sterling and Moses. On the whole I like Rodgers a lot, but occasionally like yesterday I wonder what the hell he is seeing that we aren't or vice versa. Yesterday was also crying out for a bold change from relatively early when things just didn't work. Sure we might have got away with the points from a poor performance but that still wouldn't have excused it.

Henderson does good work for us. He is the one who puts himself about every game, but in a midfield that really worked he probably wouldn't be first choice. Lucas is much maligned, mostly unfairly, I think.  I don't think either are the root of our failings though.

Sterling has been over-hyped and now is going to get the inevitable backlash and I feel for him. A real talent, but nowhere near the finished article. Needs to be very carefully nurtured. Moses was very poor yesterday. The guy has real attributes but they too often are going to waste and it's hugely disappointing, I hoped for more. Can't see him getting much game time if anyone else steps up. The first goal was down to him and set the tone. Silly chip and go from essentially the left back position. Poor game management as BR would say.

Suarez is partly injured and off colour and had no chance of influencing the game.

I'd like to see Rodgers be bold now. Decide on his best defenders in the centre and play them. It's a worry that Martin Kelly hasn't come back, we could use him at right back with GJ switching. In the absence of that option, we'll have to muddle through and hope we bolster in January.

There's a feeling that BR will just keep playing the same midfield combo every game. Alberto still looks off the pace slightly and is prone to giving the ball away, but I'd like to see him get a chance. Same with Aspas if fit. He really needs to play against Norwich to give Luis some support. I feel like we need to freshen things up. BR talks a lot about competition for places, but it feels like he doesn't trust most of the squad to give them a game even when the regular options are off colour.

I feel that we're in danger of squandering a crucial chance to get into the CL again this season. We need to play brave football and we need a strong idea of what we're trying to do. The gameplan looks a bit muddled at the moment. We can't afford to not turn up against sides like Hull. Still, we're still in the mix, let's hope this wake up call has come at a good time and we move on. January's recruitment suddenly looks extra important.

[N0rnIr0nRed]

Worst performance under Rodgers.

Move on.

Two more games this week...anything other than max points is unacceptable!

Fuck Steve Bruce and his Fathead.

[kkjellquist]

I'm not too worried to be honest.  We had a poor game and two particular players had off days on top of that.....Suarez and Johnson.  The game was a couple bad bounces away from 1-1 or even a weak 1-0 win for us.  In a twisted way we may be better off in the long run losing that game.  If Moses' shot goes and Suarez' free kick catches the corner of the goal it's a poorly executed 3-2 or 3-1 win and the players walk off thinking everything is peachy. 

I'll always take the points, but this game could be our gut-check match for the first half of the season. 

Glad to have Norwich next and quickly!

[Anywhichwayicant]

A horrid display, out fought and out played by an abject Hull team. Our mental side of the game is a disgrace, and we're at a point where we need to replace the mentally weak, with stronger characters. John Henry should also look at docking a few weeks wages. Absolutely disgusted. I can forgive being beaten by superior opposition or just having one of those days, but I'll never forgive a lack of effort. Serious overhaul needed, the badge on their chest is worth more than the bollocks they're serving up. If only we could play Man U 38 times a season.

[jason67]

Worst performance under Rodgers.

Move on.

Two more games this week...anything other than max points is unacceptable!

Fuck Steve Bruce and his Fathead.

Just wanted to say that there have been some fantastic posts in this thread so far, really enjoyed reading them.

And then I came to this one....The last line made me laugh though. 

[DonkeyWan]

It was a depressing reality check that in truth we'd been setting ourselves up for for a while.

Indeed, I agree with this sentiment. The question for me (and I stated it in the match day thread as well) is, does this represent a regression to the mean or just a dip in an otherwise long run of excellent form dating back to last season? One way many have been viewing this season is a continuation of Post-January 2013. To my mind though, this result is akin to so many others we have seen over the last 5 years - whenever the team looks like establishing itself, taking a step forward to the next level, turning the corner and actually accelerating along the main straight, it falls flat on its face and drops back into the chasing pack. The last few weeks have seen some very bad results as the early season excitement wears off and the drudgery of the season really starts. Its great they are still competitive, but with so many tough games left in the season (City, Chelsea and Spurs home and away, United away, Arsenal and Everton at home) it could prove a real struggle in the second half of the season.

What worries me the most though is that the team hasn't really moved to a new level. To date Rodgers has spent Ģ95-6 million on players and recouped about Ģ35m. That's about Ģ60 million net on players (a significant investment on players), but so far we have only seen Coutinhio, Sturridge and Mignolet really establish themselves (representing about Ģ30-1 million of that gross spend). So where was the other Ģ65 million? Allen, Sahko, Alberto and Aspas were on the bench yesterday, Borini was on loan, hitting the crossbar at Sunderland. Ilori didn't even make the match day squad. Its all very well to say 'ones for the future' but Liverpool are not currently so well off that they can let Ģ65 million be spent on players that don't improve the first team.

Yesterday was very telling in that regard. Sturridge was the only first team player out and Rodgers post match complained his side lacked depth. So what of all that money spent? It looks increasingly like a poor investment and to expect a team that is predominantly made up of players from two regimes that had the club mired firmly outside the CL spots to suddenly become competitive and win the league or finish top four is unlikely. Hence my agreement with Diggler's statement.

What you would expect for the money that Rodgers has spent (particularly this summer) was players to come straight into the side and improve it. Instead a lot of money was sitting on the bench - it would seem therefore that Rodgers either doesn't trust the new players, or cannot decide on his first XI. Not a good sign after about 15 months in charge. More worryingly I have seen a number of posters agree that the midfield needs strengthening in January for the long slog ahead. If I was one of the owners I would be looking at Rodgers and saying "what about Allen and Alberto, that's Ģ22 million right there." The club has also been linked with Montoya: again the owners would be well within their rights to point at Sahko and Ilori and raise their collective eyebrows. Similarly up front, Ģ11 million Borini on loan... They might very well be nervous about giving him more money while so many purchases remain splintery arsed.

To sum up, yesterday has been coming a while but what makes it more worrying is that its about the third uninspired performance in four games (3-3 was exciting, but it was Liverpool snatching a lucky draw at the death after being dominated for much of the game) and still our new purchases remain unused, while old purchases are barely getting a look in. Transfer are supposed to improve on what exists, when the manager fails to succeed in his transfers, well, its not a good sign. The question is, was a Hull a sign of a downward spiral to 7/8th with no new blood turning the tide, or a blip?

[yellsub66]

Shocking performance! Didn't see the Saints game when we lost at home, but surely our performance against Hull is the worst for a good long time? Tactical errors from Brendan and totally the wrong starting selection; However the lack of effort from certain players is inexcusable! Moses and Johnson being prime examples. Sterling, should not be starting games and is clearly short of confidence. 10 minute impact sub, maybe; starter, most definitely not!!

We periodically seem to come unstuck against these sorts of sides? Teams that are generally poor but play with lashings of fight and determination. For Hull, just beating a big team is the be all and end all; it meant so much to them, and their ex Manc manager.

Yes we were outclassed by Arsenal and out-passed by Saints, but Hull..well they just had more desire! They wanted it more and despite their lucky goals, they basically harried us into errors never gave us any space.

I  really, really hope that Brendan learns from this diabolical performance! He needs to speak a few home truths to certain players. I caught his BBC post match interview on iplayer and I have to say I am very concerned. He talked of "not being able to fault the players commitment and effort". Is he for real?

Moses was appalling in his attitude and should be nowhere near a Liverpool shirt; Johnson was shocking! Many others were below par! If we had showed just 50% of the desire that Hull possessed to win then we would have swept the floor with them!!

This is a crucial point in the season. Two emphatic home wins on the spin are what is required...nothing less will do! We need to push on and Brendan needs to convince his team that top four (or higher) is there for the taking this season! Yes we are going to miss Sturridge, and maybe Brendan is right to talk of a limited squad depth, but he needs to realise there is no more room for team selection or tactical errors from him. I really hope we see a different set up and side for Norwich!

[MobileBayRed]

I'm still trying to figure out how a team can manage 60% possession in both halves, almost 500 passes completed (more completions than the opposing team attempted) with 3 attack minded players and still only manage 9 shots, the two best attempts coming on direct free kicks.  Lies, damned lies and statistics.  Watching Flanagan, Skrtel, Toure, Johnson & Mignolet kick the ball around the back is not good for my health. 

Some of the play was downright comical, except that it wasn't funny at all.  Moses' giveaway which led to the first goal was so egregious, I thought surely Rodgers was going to sub him immediately.  Toure, somehow playing Sagbo onside for the third. . .wow.  And the less said about the second goal, the better.

I'm not even sure where we go from here.  As bad as Moses was, do we have an alternative?  Ibe?  Aspas (is he even healthy or match fit?)?  Do we go with 5 CM in Lucas, Gerrard, Coutinho, Henderson & Allen? Where is Allen's head after the Everton match?  Is Alberto ready for a larger role? 

I like PoP's idea of reverting to 3 at the back with Agger, Sakho and Skrtel, but I doubt we will see it.  More likely, if form holds, Rodgers will go with Agger and Sakho mid-week.

How did we manage to have no width at all in our play with Moses and Sterling on the wing?

[robgomm]

I'm still trying to figure out how a team can manage 60% possession in both halves, almost 500 passes completed (more completions than the opposing team attempted) with 3 attack minded players and still only manage 9 shots, the two best attempts coming on direct free kicks.  Lies, damned lies and statistics.  Watching Flanagan, Skrtel, Toure, Johnson & Mignolet kick the ball around the back is not good for my health. 

  < happened a lot to me.

[longtimered]

Two issues need addressing without using injuries as a smokescreen.Firstly settle on the preferred centreback pairing and stick to it-don't rotate because of a messed up transfer strategy that's given us too many centrebacks.Secondly the midfield three of Henderson,Gerrard and Lucas carries no goal threat from open play and little creativity in forward areas other than Gerrard;collectively they are slow.
Unless these issues are recognised I see a number of relatively disappointing performances without having the two forwards getting us out of jail.

[B0151?]

  Toure, somehow playing Sagbo onside for the third.

Wasn't he down and injured?

We deserved to lose, but on a luckier day we probably would have drawn. That's absolutely no consolation given who we were playing and the manner in which we did play though.

[MobileBayRed]

Wasn't he down and injured?

We deserved to lose, but on a luckier day we probably would have drawn. That's absolutely no consolation given who we were playing and the manner in which we did play though.

Couldn't see from the feed I was watching.  I saw the ball played over Skrtel's head and immediately assumed it had to be offside (no one is ever deeper than Skrtel).  Then I saw Toure in our own box and assumed it was either an injury or tying his shoes or selling a used car or something.   Whatever it was, as you say, luck was not on our side.

[steveeastend]

How did we manage to have no width at all in our play with Moses and Sterling on the wing?

Thatīs an interesting question. The delivery from the full backs was non existing, up to a point where Moses dropped back in order to show some of his skills at the back with the consequence of causing the first goal. And then there was no delivery from midfield as Gerrard tried to hit the long ball way too often... but thatīs nothing new.

The pitch was horrible though, no excuse but bad enough for our less talented player needing a couple of touches in order to control the ball. Which is the problem itself... top players donīt try to control the ball at all, they control a game situation and move the ball on immediately. For that though, the movement wasnīt good enough which was mostly because of a massive lack of effort coming from an arrogant and non professional attitude.

Most of the players didnīt do their job. Yes, Skrtel, may not be a world beater but he was the only player besides Suarez and Mignolet, maybe Lucas and Sterling, who did a professional job during those 90 minutes. Playing up to their standards and doing what is required in terms whatīs overall needed when playing their position.

The rest though put down alibi performances on sunday five a side level. It didnīt happen for the first time and the likes of Johnson and Gerrard should take a long and hard look at themselves. Role model? I donīt think so. Three managers after Rafa they still seem to be showing up for a proper performance whenever THEY want to, itīs certainly not against teams like Hull, Reading etc. though which makes them move out of their comfort zone.

I donīt want to comment on players like Moses, Toure or Flanagan, this club isnīt a playground for players who feel the need to be special, nor should it be an education club for youngster like Flanagan.

Sorry but this sort of attitude from the players in those away games against mid and bottom table teams has to stop. Unless we are not a big club, not a single bit.

[Redeo]

To me it comes down to lacking depth. Simple as. Absent one of Coutinho, Suarez or Sturridge we're hardly a top four team, and absent two, looks like we're definitely not. Apart from those three to provide an assist or score, there aren't many others. Gerrard from a dead ball delivery, Henderson/Moses when in plenty of space, and then ... Sterling ?? Aspas ??, or one of Agger/Skrtel/Kolo from Gerrard's delivery. Also, without Sturridge around, Suarez looks like half a player.
That Joe Allen's miss still lingers and sums it up for me.

[Twelfth Man]

Quote from PoP at HT: "No matter how talented you might be, you have to outwork the other team first. Earn the right to play football." No point discussing formations, Gerrard, the midfield, the impact of no Sturridge, our CB's, when you are basically out desired. We didn't want it as much as them. That is what needs to be analysed.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Quote from PoP at HT: "No matter how talented you might be, you have to outwork the other team first. Earn the right to play football." No point discussing formations, Gerrard, the midfield, the impact of no Sturridge, our CB's, when you are basically out desired. We didn't want it as much as them. That is what needs to be analysed. [/size]

It's a tough question though, because that's a problem we've had for a long while, over at least 3 managers, if not 4 or 5.

Which leads to the tough question people might not like the answer to.

What are the common denominators over 3 managers that have led to performances like this?

[Twelfth Man]

What are the common denominators over 3 managers that have led to performances like this?

We including Owl face as one of the three?

[PhaseOfPlay]

We including Owl face as one of the three?

Yep. So four then

[goalrushatgoodison]

It's a tough question though, because that's a problem we've had for a long while, over at least 3 managers, if not 4 or 5.

Which leads to the tough question people might not like the answer to.

What are the common denominators over 3 managers that have led to performances like this?

I think you are referring to a lack of leadership from our captain again.

Another common denominator in those four managers is a lack of width. This is overlooked too often IMO.

[Twelfth Man]

Yep. So four then

Someone help me out. I can't think of one common denominator between our last four manager's. They seem like a disparate bunch.

[PhaseOfPlay]

I think you are referring to a lack of leadership from our captain again.

Another common denominator in those four managers is a lack of width. This is overlooked too often IMO.

Width or lack of it is not a factor in poor performance, though.

Also - I said "common denominators". Not just one.