Author Topic: How HS2 will tear up rural England  (Read 21325 times)

Offline Trada

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How HS2 will tear up rural England
« on: July 21, 2013, 08:48:56 am »
How HS2 will tear up rural England

More than 100 of Britain’s most important wildlife habitats and dozens of ancient woodlands will be directly affected by the proposed high-speed rail link between London and the North

 Official documents also disclose that hundreds of acres of green-belt land will be lost and more than 1,000 buildings are to be demolished.

Conservationists and other campaigners reacted angrily to the figures, which were buried in a mass of documents published without fanfare by the Department for Transport.

They are the fullest assessment of the environmental impact of the HS2 route, from London to Manchester and Leeds. Until now only the impact of the first stage, from London to Birmingham, had been fully detailed.

The high-speed rail link is backed by both parties, with George Gideon Oliver Osborne, son of Sir Peter Osborne, 17th Baronet of Ballentaylor and Ballylemon and Felicity Alexandra Loxton-Peacock, educated at St. Paul's and Magdalen College, Oxford, the Chancellor, and other senior Cabinet ministers arguing that HS2 is vital infrastructure that will transform Britain’s “economic geography”.

Its supporters say it will bring tens of thousands of jobs to the North by slashing journey times from London to Birmingham in the first phase, then Manchester and Leeds in the second.

 Critics have claimed that HS2’s business case does not stack up and opposition to the project is building in Westminster, with doubts voiced recently by a number of senior figures. Archie Norman, the former Conservative minister, writing in The Sunday Telegraph today, calls the risks “enormous”. Earlier this month, ministers revised up the scheme’s projected cost from £33billion to £42billion. Thousands of properties within a mile of the route have already been blighted, even though construction of the line is not set to begin until 2017.

The Sunday Telegraph can disclose that a full “sustainability statement” drawn up by the Department for Transport outlines the scheme’s expected impact, which includes:



 * Depots and railway hubs will be built on 250 acres of green-belt land. Green-belt land will have to be crossed west of Newcastle-under-Lyme, north of Northwich, along a spur into Manchester and outside Nottingham, Sheffield and Leeds;

* Around 25 miles of the line will be built on floodplains;

* More than 616 homes will be bulldozed, up from the 565 initially forecast;

* 342 homes will be cut off from their community, 207 more than previously thought.

The document acknowledges that HS2 could increase the risk of flooding in some areas. The area around Manchester Piccadilly station would be “at risk of flooding” because of building over watercourses. It said there would be plans to set aside money for flood compensation for potential victims. Trains will run along viaducts in floodplains to mitigate the risk of flooding. However, the analysis says “other solutions” to reduce the threat may have to be worked out later on.

Several sites of “special scientific interest” will be carved up by the train line, including Bogs Farm Quarry, near Selston, Notts, containing rare grassland rich in wildlife, and the River Mease in the Midlands, which is home to otters.

Trains will also speed through four country parks that attract hundreds of thousands of visitors a year, including Kingsbury Water Park and Pooley Country Park in Warwickshire, and Rabbit Ings Country Park and Rothwell Country Park in South Yorks. In Nottinghamshire, the remains of the county’s only known Roman temple will be concreted over. At least 32 ancient woodlands that have existed since at least the time of Elizabeth I will also be affected.

Sue Holden, the chief executive of the Woodland Trust, said there could be “no mitigation” for loss of the “irreplaceable” wooded areas that have been there for at least four centuries.

The route will affect 27 listed buildings, putting at least five Grade II-listed structures including a 12th-century church building in Derbyshire, a hotel in Manchester with an 18th-century farmhouse, and a Victorian bridge in Leicestershire at risk of demolition.

Ralph Smyth, a transport campaigner for the Campaign for the Protection of Rural England, said: “The Government says it will leave 'no stone unturned’ in trying to maximise jobs and growth from HS2. Why is there no similar ambition to minimise the woodlands and nature sites that would be damaged by HS2?”

Penny Gaines, chairman of the Stop HS2 campaign group, said: “We have been saying for a long time that the Department for Transport is failing to acknowledge the enormous damage this project will cause to the countryside.

“First they show that the financial cost of HS2 is higher than they thought it would be. Now we know the same is true of the environmental damage. It’s time for this project to be cancelled so the Government can get on with delivering improvements to our rail network that do make sense.”

Ministers have been accused of insensitivity to the risk of environmental damage. Last year, Justine Greening, transport secretary at the time, suggested “transplanting woodland to an adjacent site” in a letter to another MP.

Meanwhile, Archie Norman, the former Conservative shadow transport secretary who is now chairman of ITV, today joins the growing number of critics of the Coalition’s flagship transport project. In the Business section of today’s Sunday Telegraph, Mr Norman writes that the “economics are very unattractive and the risks enormous”.

“Since it was first announced, the costs have escalated relentlessly,” the article reads. “It now looks as if HS2 will cost £50billion — nearly £2,000 for every household in Britain for a railway that probably only about one to two per cent of the population will use each year.”

The former minister says it is a “delusion” the project will make impoverished parts of the North more affluent. “It would certainly make London more prosperous. It will do nothing for deprived East Manchester and will bypass many of the most needy areas of Britain.”

In recent weeks senior figures in the Labour Party who were previously in favour of HS2 have criticised the project.

Lord Mandelson, the former business secretary, said the project could prove an “expensive mistake”, while the former chancellor Alistair Darling warned that HS2 would “suck money” out of Britain’s rail budget. Ed Balls, the shadow chancellor, said he was “concerned about rising costs” associated with the scheme, adding that it could not be handed a “blank cheque”.

Adding to the growing mood of uncertainty about HS2, Vince Cable, the Business Secretary, said last week that the case for the project was “still being made”. Although still a supporter of HS2, Mr Cable acknowledged the calculations were “being revisited” and said it had “to meet a standard of cost/benefit analysis which the Treasury seeks”.

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/uknews/road-and-rail-transport/10192925/How-HS2-will-tear-up-rural-England.html
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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #1 on: July 21, 2013, 08:52:42 am »
And most importantly it goes through the land of some very wealthy Tory voters...
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Offline jaffod

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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #2 on: July 21, 2013, 11:24:44 am »
I live in Liverpool so it doesn't really concern me.

Offline TSC

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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #3 on: July 21, 2013, 11:44:35 am »
Only positive is that it's another route out of the shithole that is London.

Offline Roady

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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #4 on: July 23, 2013, 03:03:21 pm »
Only positive is that it's another route out of the shithole that is London.

this,

and the fact that if im being honest, im not arsed.
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Offline Quaid

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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #5 on: July 23, 2013, 03:15:11 pm »
Only positive is that it's another route out of the shithole that is London.

What's London ever done to you?
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Offline The Fletcher Memorial

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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #6 on: July 23, 2013, 03:53:59 pm »
I live in Liverpool so it doesn't really concern me.

Wonderful attitude, give yourself a pat on the back there lad.
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Offline MrGrumpy

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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #7 on: July 23, 2013, 05:35:32 pm »
Typical Telegraph Nimbyist crap.

When it is built, the same people that were up in arms about it will be praising it to high heaven.

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Offline classycarra

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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #8 on: July 23, 2013, 07:52:43 pm »
Typical Telegraph Nimbyist crap.


havent read the article but regardless of who it came from it seems like a massive waste of money and unnecessary too. connections between birmingham and london arent exactly bad. wouldnt it be better to invest in the north, for a start?

Offline jaffod

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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #9 on: July 23, 2013, 08:16:47 pm »
Wonderful attitude, give yourself a pat on the back there lad.

Hmmm, I think you may have just missed my point. It was rather subtle. It's like not being invited to the party, despite contributing to it's cost, so you don't really care if the house gets trashed and there's vomit everywhere...

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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #10 on: July 23, 2013, 08:34:17 pm »
Did all these people complain when the M40 cut through more land?
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Offline B0151?

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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #11 on: July 24, 2013, 12:56:57 am »
havent read the article but regardless of who it came from it seems like a massive waste of money and unnecessary too. connections between birmingham and london arent exactly bad. wouldnt it be better to invest in the north, for a start?

Agree with this

Offline hide5seek

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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #12 on: July 24, 2013, 08:52:01 am »
Its going to be massive waste of investment for very little gain. Money would be far better and give more to the country in terms of jobs etc if spent on something we really need like social housing.

Offline jillcwhomever

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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #13 on: July 24, 2013, 09:48:35 am »
This is one depressing thread, but sadly is doesn't surprise me. The ability of people to put the needs of the human race over the needs off the environment is sadly unsurprising. The most depressing thing of all though is that the one group that was founded to protect the natural environment is now being used by the politicans of the land to lay waste to the countryside, and that is a national disgrace. There was a time when Natural England was there to protect the environment, but now it is merely being used to push through endless inane ventures like these. Totally ignoring the views of the local people concerned. This from a government that claimed itself to be the greenest of the green. Ha, ha.

I've been in environmental groups all my life fighting various governments who are all full of promises of how they will respect the environment etc. Then the moment they all get into power they can't wait to bulldoze every bit of green land in view. All for "human progress" as they call it.

Wildlife and the environment has never been in more peril than what it is now, with this government in charge. So I urge anyone who does "care" about it to join local groups and give yourself a voice.
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Offline jillcwhomever

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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #14 on: July 24, 2013, 10:03:06 am »
Natural England has become a gopher of the landed classes
Stand up for England's wildlife instead of capitulating to the lords of the land and their business interests

Listening to the National Farmers' Union, the Countryside Alliance and the Country Land and Business Association, you could be forgiven for believing that the only people who live in the countryside are farmers and landowners.

In fact, there are 9.8 million people living in rural England (defined as settlements with fewer than 10,000 inhabitants). Of these, 140,000 arefarmers, or the business partners, directors and spouses of farmers. In other words, they constitute 1.4% of the rural population (and 0.3% of the total population).

Yet rural policy seems to be tailored largely to their needs. It's not enough that (in the UK as a whole), taxpayers give farmers and landowners – among whom are the wealthiest people in Britain – £3.6bn a year in the form of agricultural subsidies. Under the Cameron government the landowners must also be permitted to decide how and for whom the countryside is run. 99% of rural people, and 99.7% of the nation as a whole, are marginalised from decision-making in the countryside.

There is no better illustration of this than the letter from Natural England in the Guardian today.

Natural England is supposed to regulate the relationship between those who own, farm and use the countryside, and the wildlife and natural places which are valued by so many of the nation's people. But successive governments have pulled its teeth. Under New Labour its mandate was subtly changed. The Hampton Principle, incorporated by the government into the objectives of a wide range of agencies, insists that:

"Regulators should recognise that a key element of their activity will be to allow, or even encourage, economic progress and only to intervene when there is a clear case for protection."

You can find it in the Regulators' Compliance Code for Natural England. It is not clear to me why an agency whose stated aim is to defend the environment should have to "encourage economic progress" (otherwise known as growth), which is arguably the primary cause of environmental degradation. Surely a body such as Natural England should be one of those still, small voices within government asking the awkward questions, such as: "is perpetual growth in all respects a good thing?" and "might there be a downside?"

Under Cameron, Natural England has been reduced from a semi-independent voice, sporadically defending wildlife and habitats, to a gopher for the landed classes. The Hampton Principle appears to have been reinterpreted to mean "do nothing that will interfere with a landowner's economic interests, however damaging they may be."

Natural England's letter begins with a non-explanation of why it dropped its legal case against the Walshaw Moor grouse estate, owned by the retail tycoon Richard Bannister, whose staff had been burning blanket bog and other habitats on a site of special scientific interest in the Pennines, in order to improve his grouse shooting. It's not just that the burning cooks wildlife and ensures the habitat is less favourable to species other than the red grouse. It's also that blanket bog sits atop the UK's major carbon sinks: peat deposits. The Commission of Inquiry on UK Peatlands reports that:

"Damaged UK peatlands are releasing almost 3.7 million tonnes CO2e (Carbon dioxide equivalent) each year … more than all the households of Edinburgh, Cardiff and Leeds combined."
and

"Peatlands are vitally important in the global carbon cycle and UK greenhouse gas budgets. They represent the single most important terrestrial carbon store in the UK. Blanket and raised bog peatlands cover around 23,000 km squared or 9.5% of the UK land area, with current estimates indicating they store at least 3.2 billion tonnes of carbon. A loss of only 5% of UK peatland carbon would equate to the total annual UK anthropogenic greenhouse gas emissions. Healthy peat bogs have a net long-term 'cooling' effect on the climate."

(see Severin Carrell's report for more)
Natural England's letter "explains" the abandonment of its legal action by stating that:
"At Walshaw, we have now entered into a 25-year agreement that provides improved environmental protection for the moors while allowing the estate to conduct its business activities."

These business activities – as the agreement spells out – specifically include burning blanket bog. Perhaps the agency would care to explain the environmental case for this burning? It has singularly failed to do this so far, and a lot of people are eager to know.

The agreement represents total capitulation to a large landowner, who will be allowed to carry on damaging a place which is both a site of special scientific interest and a special area of conservation, a capitulation which is now being spun by the agency as some kind of success. And there is still no explanation from Natural England of why it dropped its legal case against Richard Bannister's estate. Its silence on the matter becomes more telling by the day.

Or perhaps there is something resembling an explanation, later in the same letter. Here, the agency seeks to explain why it withdrew the mild and tentative document it published in 2009, called Vital Uplands. It proposed that the bare, scoured monoculture of sheep pasture and grouse moor that dominates almost all of upland England – including the conservation areas – might be moderated by just a fraction by allowing a few trees to grow in a few places, by burning a little less and by permitting some wildlife to gain a toehold.

The landowners went nuts. The chairman of Natural England, who also happens to be a farmer, turned up at a meeting of the National Farmers' Union, denounced his own agency and publicly apologised for its heresies. The document was withdrawn and all trace of it was deleted from the agency's website.

Now Natural England tells us that Vital Uplands was withdrawn because it
"had never been supported by the main land managers in the uplands, and a vision without followers cannot deliver outcomes for the natural environment."

But there are millions of potential followers of a vision which seeks to allow some of our missing wildlife to return to the uplands, and to moderate the most severe impacts of grouse moor management and sheep ranching.

There are millions of people who might support a request that we get something in return for our £3.6bn other than soil erosion, flooding (caused by the lack of trees and compaction of the soil by sheep), greenhouse gas emissions, the persecution of birds of prey and the destruction of habitat.
There are millions of people who might have expected a regulator to regulate, rather than just to grovel and doff its cap to the lords of the land.

But Natural England, neutered by successive governments, now seems to interpret its brief as keeping the 1% happy, whatever the rest of us might think. This is a classic example of regulatory capture. An agency which should be protecting the natural world appears to have identified and aligned itself with people damaging it. Who now will stand up for England's wildlife?
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Offline jillcwhomever

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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #15 on: July 24, 2013, 10:11:50 am »
Now they are starting on the Anicent forests again  ::) . Well we gave you a bloody nose the last time you tried that one Cameron.

Ancient wood to be felled for quarry
Ruling raises fears for future of more than 300 ancient woods around the country

TOM BAWDEN 
 
ENVIRONMENT EDITOR
An area of ancient woodland the size of 16 football pitches in Kent will be destroyed to make way for a ragstone quarry after the government ruled that the commercial benefits of the development outweighed the habitat loss.

In a ruling that raises fears for the future of more than 300 ancient woods around the country, local government secretary Eric Pickles yesterday waived through an application to extend a ragstone quarry into the 400-year old Oaken Wood near Maidstone.

The resulting deforestation is thought to represent the largest loss of ancient woodland in the UK in the past five years. It would destroy about a sixth of the sweet chestnut coppice, which supports a range of plants and rare animals but is best known for two bat species - the Common Pipstrelle and the Natterer's bat.

The decision ends a two-year battle between Gallagher Aggregates, owner of the Hermitage Quarry, and the Woodland Trust, which described the ruling as a "test case setting a dangerous precedent".
Sue Holden, chief executive of the Woodland Trust, said: "This is a landmark decision, but for all the wrong reasons. This so-called 'greenest Government ever' stated that the new National Planning Policy Framework would give sufficient protection to irreplaceable habitats such as ancient woodland. It clearly does not - it seems no green space is safe."

"With just 2 per cent of ancient woodland cover remaining, we cannot afford to lose any more," she added, saying that the cover has been steadily declining in the 15 years since her group started recording the woodlands at risk from development.

A spokesman for the Department for Communities and Local Government said: "The land will be restored in due course to native woodland", adding that the planning application was supported by Kent County Council, local MPs and English Heritage.

A Woodland Trust spokesman responded by pointing out that the government's advisor on the environment opposed the development, adding that "new planting, although still vital, will never have the same value for wildlife as ancient woodland".

Advocates for the natural world had hoped that the government's overhaul of national planning policy last year had strengthened protection for irreplaceable landscapes such as ancient woodland.
The Woodland Trust raised concerns over an apparent loophole in the policy framework which stated that planning applications should not bring about the loss of irreplaceable habitats such as ancient woodlands "unless the need for, and benefits of, the development in that location clearly outweigh the loss".

However, when asked to clarify the situation in March last year, the then government spokesman for the House of Lords told the Lords that "I am satisfied that the NPPF (National Planning Policy Framework) will protect ancient woodland".

The decision to allow the quarry extension to proceed represents the first ruling on ancient woodland since the policy framework was introduced and suggests it will not offer sufficient protection to other threatened areas, the Woodland Trust said.

As a result, the trust fears that many of the 300 ancient UK woodlands - representing 9,000 hectares, or 4,500 football pitches -  it is fighting to protect against development could also be threatened.
The Woodland Trust fears that an area of woodland near Pembury in Kent could be next, with a ruling on an ongoing public inquiry into plans to turn the A21 into a dual carriageway expected shortly.

In a letter communicating Mr Pickles decision on the Oaken Wood case, a colleague of the secretary of state wrote: "[Mr Pickles] considers that the very considerable need for both crushed rock aggregates and dimension stone, together with the eventual biodiversity improvements, and the ongoing socio-economic benefits, would clearly outweigh the loss of the ancient woodland and the other adverse effects of the development in this case; and therefore that the loss of ancient woodland would not be contrary to Development Plan policy."

Ragstone is a hard limestone that is dull grey and is used for building.
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Offline The Fletcher Memorial

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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #16 on: July 24, 2013, 10:13:06 am »
It should be all underground, like that vactrain idea. Liverpool to London in ten minutes.
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Offline kesey

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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #17 on: July 24, 2013, 11:43:01 pm »
Destroying the enviroment to save time. When will people realise thst time cannot be saved.

Deluded bellends.
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Offline The Fletcher Memorial

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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #18 on: July 25, 2013, 08:39:57 am »
Destroying the enviroment to save time. When will people realise thst time cannot be saved.

Deluded bellends.

In the 8 or 9 years I've been on here, that's probably the wisest thing you've said  :wave
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Offline kesey

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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #19 on: July 25, 2013, 01:49:05 pm »
In the 8 or 9 years I've been on here, that's probably the wisest thing you've said  :wave

Probably the wisest thing I have said. 

Slow down people , enjoy nature , enjoy time. :wave
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Offline The Fletcher Memorial

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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #20 on: July 25, 2013, 02:51:09 pm »
 
Probably the wisest thing I have said. 

Slow down people , enjoy nature , enjoy time. :wave

I heartily endorse this message. 
The sky does not know of east or of west;
it is in the minds of men where such distinctions are made, and then they believe them to be true.

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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #21 on: July 25, 2013, 06:13:53 pm »
The things that's pissing me off with all this, is the amount of money these shithawks want to spend to save 40 minutes of journey times. FOURTY MINUTES!

What the fuck is forty minutes going to makes to anyone.

Clueless bellends.

Offline jaffod

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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #22 on: July 25, 2013, 07:46:26 pm »
Destroying the enviroment to save time. When will people realise thst time cannot be saved.

Deluded bellends.

Time is money.

Offline kesey

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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #23 on: July 25, 2013, 07:54:27 pm »
The things that's pissing me off with all this, is the amount of money these shithawks want to spend to save 40 minutes of journey times. FOURTY MINUTES!

What the fuck is forty minutes going to makes to anyone.

Clueless bellends.

It's all about time mate. The quicker you do things the better you are. The quicker we do things the more evolved we are.

Just imagine how many meetings you can do in that 40 minutes saved. Its good for the economy mate.

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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #24 on: July 25, 2013, 07:56:03 pm »
I would sincerely recomend  a book called the Tao of Pooh by Benjamin Hoff.
He who sees himself in all beings and all beings in himself loses all fear.

- The Upanishads.

The heart knows the way. Run in that direction

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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #25 on: July 25, 2013, 07:57:19 pm »
Time is money.

To the unwise it is.
He who sees himself in all beings and all beings in himself loses all fear.

- The Upanishads.

The heart knows the way. Run in that direction

- Rumi

You are held . You are loved . You are seen  - Some wise fella .

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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #26 on: July 25, 2013, 08:04:08 pm »
To the unwise it is.

True. Whenever somebody tells me of a shortcut or route they take to save 5 minutes or tell me they break the speed limit I ask them what do they do with the 5 minutes they save. I am usually met with a blank expression.

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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #27 on: July 26, 2013, 12:06:38 am »
True. Whenever somebody tells me of a shortcut or route they take to save 5 minutes or tell me they break the speed limit I ask them what do they do with the 5 minutes they save. I am usually met with a blank expression.

Boss.

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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #28 on: July 26, 2013, 12:56:08 am »
Time is money.

These days trains have wifi and with phone coverage having few blind spots, you can easily get work done in transit.

The argument is that you'd allow people to commute from the midlands to the south/north (and vice versa) for jobs. Doubt it'd have a massive effect.
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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #29 on: July 26, 2013, 01:57:14 pm »
The things that's pissing me off with all this, is the amount of money these shithawks want to spend to save 40 minutes of journey times. FOURTY MINUTES!

What the fuck is forty minutes going to makes to anyone.

Clueless bellends.

I travel a lot on business. 40 minutes could mean

1, Getting home for your kiddies bed time despite having meetings on the other side of the country
2, Spending longer with the client
3, Getting up 40 blissful minutes later when you have a big day ahead!

High speed railways in this country in comparison to those on the continent are poor. Take a TGV from Paris to the South of France if you don't believe me.
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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #30 on: July 27, 2013, 08:46:09 am »
I travel a lot on business. 40 minutes could mean

1, Getting home for your kiddies bed time despite having meetings on the other side of the country
2, Spending longer with the client
3, Getting up 40 blissful minutes later when you have a big day ahead!

High speed railways in this country in comparison to those on the continent are poor. Take a TGV from Paris to the South of France if you don't believe me.

To tell you the truth, your username is not the best advertisement for your stance... ;)

Coming back to Jaffod, though,

I live in Liverpool so it doesn't really concern me.

If bringing HS2 to within 40 miles of your home is not going to benefit you, just what is the point??

It's not just Rural England that HS2 threatens though, I come from Camden Town (although I have now moved) and there's a lot of uncertainty and worry in the area surrounding Euston Station (Hampstead Road, Drummond St etc). Given the Crossrail that is being built I'm still unsure why they have to come all the way into Euston and can't terminate in Old Oak Common.
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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #31 on: July 27, 2013, 11:09:37 am »
Should be a tunnel under Euston which connects with HS1 and Stratford with a turn round so they don't need to knock the Bree Louise down ;)
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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #32 on: July 27, 2013, 12:08:26 pm »
Yep, unless they change it so its an underground terminus/through station, which to be honest would make more sense as Stratford barely gets used so it could be a turnaround there?

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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #33 on: July 27, 2013, 12:28:21 pm »
The things that's pissing me off with all this, is the amount of money these shithawks want to spend to save 40 minutes of journey times. FOURTY MINUTES!

What the fuck is forty minutes going to makes to anyone.

Clueless bellends.
40 minutes a day times 250 work days is 166 hours per person...
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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #34 on: July 27, 2013, 12:58:21 pm »
Can't we just build a train that drives all the tories to the centre of the sun?
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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #35 on: July 27, 2013, 03:05:45 pm »


Coming back to Jaffod, though,

If bringing HS2 to within 40 miles of your home is not going to benefit you, just what is the point??



You're right! I'd forgotten just how close it will pass my house. I'll drive out there (if I'm still alive) and watch all the super-duper trains speed past. Boss!

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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #36 on: August 18, 2013, 12:31:03 pm »
HS2 'could cost taxpayer £80bn'

The HS2 high-speed rail project could cost more than £80bn - almost double the current estimated cost of £42.6bn, a free-market think tank has said.

The Institute for Economic Affairs (IEA) expects lobbying by local councils for extra infrastructure and design changes will inflate the cost.

It wants HS2 to be scrapped and the money spent on other transport schemes.

The government said the "absolutely vital" scheme would give a "huge economic boost" for generations.

High-speed 2 (HS2) is intended to allow trains to run at 250 mph (400km/h) from London to Birmingham from 2026, with branches to Manchester and Leeds via Sheffield planned by 2032.

Opponents say the scheme would cause an unacceptable level of environmental damage, loss of homes and disruption to many communities.
Continue reading the main story   
“Start Quote

    The evidence is now overwhelming that this will be unbelievably costly to the taxpayer while delivering incredibly poor value for money”

Report author Dr Richard Wellings

The IEA said in its report, to be released on Monday, that the cost of new trains would be £7.5bn.

And it said changes to the route "to keep voters on side" were likely to add another £30bn to the current estimated cost of £42.6bn.

That £30bn, it said, would come from areas including:

    New road links, tram lines and road upgrades to cope with more pressure on infrastructure along the route
    Extra tunnels and other design changes "to buy off opposition"
    Regeneration schemes around new stations as well as in towns bypassed by the line

The report said HS2 "and the add-on transport schemes will be heavily loss-making in commercial terms - hence the requirement for massive taxpayer support".

Author Dr Richard Wellings said it was now "time the government abandoned its plans to proceed with HS2"

"The evidence is now overwhelming that this will be unbelievably costly to the taxpayer while delivering incredibly poor value for money," he said.
Continue reading the main story   
“Start Quote

    Without HS2 the key rail routes connecting London, the Midlands and the North will be overwhelmed”

Department for Transport spokesman

"It's shameful that at a time of such financial difficulty for many families, the government is caving in to lobbying from businesses, local councils and self-interested politicians more concerned with winning votes than governing in the national interest."

The institute said the policy may have been partly followed to win votes in "response to poor electoral performance in the north of England in recent elections".

And it said money would be better spent on more "commercially viable" road, rail and transport projects "not requiring support from the taxpayer".

A Department for Transport spokesman said: "HS2 is absolutely vital for this country, providing a huge economic boost which will generate a return on investment that will continue paying back for generations to come.

"Without it, the key rail routes connecting London, the Midlands and the North will be overwhelmed.

"HS2 will provide the capacity needed in a way that will generate hundreds of thousands of jobs and billions of pounds worth of economic benefits.

"The government is committed to managing the cost within the budget we have set for the project and to securing maximum value for money for the taxpayer, while also ensuring that preparations are properly made for the most significant infrastructure investment the UK has seen in modern times."

Last month, the latest legal challenge to HS2 - from objectors including residents' groups and 15 councils along the route who had asked judges to order a further assessment of the scheme as a whole - were rejected by the Court of Appeal.

Judges dismissed all seven grounds of challenge against the London-Birmingham section of HS2, but a final appeal to the Supreme Court will be allowed.

That led Transport minister Simon Burns to say Parliament was "the right place to debate the merits of HS2, not the law courts", adding the government would introduce "the hybrid bill for phase one before the year is out".

The government would continue with the "crucial business" of getting HS2 ready for construction in 2017, he added.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23744619
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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #37 on: August 18, 2013, 12:35:43 pm »
40 minutes a day times 250 work days is 166 hours per person...

Half of them surely work on the train anyway, laptops etc. these days.

So we're actually cutting their productive time ;)
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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #38 on: August 19, 2013, 07:59:43 pm »
HS2 'could cost taxpayer £80bn'

The HS2 high-speed rail project could cost more than £80bn - almost double the current estimated cost of £42.6bn, a free-market think tank has said.

The Institute for Economic Affairs (IEA) expects lobbying by local councils for extra infrastructure and design changes will inflate the cost.

It wants HS2 to be scrapped and the money spent on other transport schemes.

The government said the "absolutely vital" scheme would give a "huge economic boost" for generations.

High-speed 2 (HS2) is intended to allow trains to run at 250 mph (400km/h) from London to Birmingham from 2026, with branches to Manchester and Leeds via Sheffield planned by 2032.

Opponents say the scheme would cause an unacceptable level of environmental damage, loss of homes and disruption to many communities.
Continue reading the main story   
“Start Quote

    The evidence is now overwhelming that this will be unbelievably costly to the taxpayer while delivering incredibly poor value for money”

Report author Dr Richard Wellings

The IEA said in its report, to be released on Monday, that the cost of new trains would be £7.5bn.

And it said changes to the route "to keep voters on side" were likely to add another £30bn to the current estimated cost of £42.6bn.

That £30bn, it said, would come from areas including:

    New road links, tram lines and road upgrades to cope with more pressure on infrastructure along the route
    Extra tunnels and other design changes "to buy off opposition"
    Regeneration schemes around new stations as well as in towns bypassed by the line

The report said HS2 "and the add-on transport schemes will be heavily loss-making in commercial terms - hence the requirement for massive taxpayer support".

Author Dr Richard Wellings said it was now "time the government abandoned its plans to proceed with HS2"

"The evidence is now overwhelming that this will be unbelievably costly to the taxpayer while delivering incredibly poor value for money," he said.
Continue reading the main story   
“Start Quote

    Without HS2 the key rail routes connecting London, the Midlands and the North will be overwhelmed”

Department for Transport spokesman

"It's shameful that at a time of such financial difficulty for many families, the government is caving in to lobbying from businesses, local councils and self-interested politicians more concerned with winning votes than governing in the national interest."

The institute said the policy may have been partly followed to win votes in "response to poor electoral performance in the north of England in recent elections".

And it said money would be better spent on more "commercially viable" road, rail and transport projects "not requiring support from the taxpayer".

A Department for Transport spokesman said: "HS2 is absolutely vital for this country, providing a huge economic boost which will generate a return on investment that will continue paying back for generations to come.

"Without it, the key rail routes connecting London, the Midlands and the North will be overwhelmed.

"HS2 will provide the capacity needed in a way that will generate hundreds of thousands of jobs and billions of pounds worth of economic benefits.

"The government is committed to managing the cost within the budget we have set for the project and to securing maximum value for money for the taxpayer, while also ensuring that preparations are properly made for the most significant infrastructure investment the UK has seen in modern times."

Last month, the latest legal challenge to HS2 - from objectors including residents' groups and 15 councils along the route who had asked judges to order a further assessment of the scheme as a whole - were rejected by the Court of Appeal.

Judges dismissed all seven grounds of challenge against the London-Birmingham section of HS2, but a final appeal to the Supreme Court will be allowed.

That led Transport minister Simon Burns to say Parliament was "the right place to debate the merits of HS2, not the law courts", adding the government would introduce "the hybrid bill for phase one before the year is out".

The government would continue with the "crucial business" of getting HS2 ready for construction in 2017, he added.



http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-23744619

A likely outcome is that HS2 helps tip the balance in favour of
Crossrail 2, a heavy-rail link between South-West and North-East
London. The cost to taxpayers is likely to be substantial, perhaps in
the order of £20 billion in current prices66 and the scheme will almost
certainly represent poor value for money compared with alternative
transport investments, although the benefits from the project are
of course far wider than the dispersal of passengers from Euston.

The above is from the report, so the IEA are adding Crossrail2 to the cost of HS2, yep Crossrail2 that was being pushed to go ahead before HS2 even existed, so 80bn minus 20bn already...fucks their figures up a bit ;)

And the below comes in the report

extension to Metrolink (tram)

in relation to Manchester metrolink, err it is already being built and nothing to do with HS2.

And all from a 5 minute scan of the report.
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Re: How HS2 will tear up rural England
« Reply #39 on: August 21, 2013, 11:58:19 am »
I travel a lot on business. 40 minutes could mean

1, Getting home for your kiddies bed time despite having meetings on the other side of the country
2, Spending longer with the client
3, Getting up 40 blissful minutes later when you have a big day ahead!

High speed railways in this country in comparison to those on the continent are poor. Take a TGV from Paris to the South of France if you don't believe me.
All very valid points which matter to a lot of people
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