Topic: Defending your home from burglars

[OohCampione]

No one knows what an intruder intends when he breaks into a house. His planned offences could range from murder to arson, surely the law-abiding citizens of this country should be able to sleep easier knowing that they can employ the measures necessary to ensuring their household is kept safe.

Let's face it, an instinct to attack is only natural when spooked. No time to carry out a survey.

Intruder beware

[Manav]

I'd like to think I'd do what Mirra said, but in truth I would probably run away and cry.

[Sammy5IsAlive]

We will have to agree to disagree mate, because I would want to do that kind of damage if they broke into my gaff. Itd be my intention to do it, id be ashamed of myself if I didnt make an example of them, id feel id of let my missus and kids down by not half killing the c*nt.

If somebody went further and deliberately 'fully killed' the burgler would you feel the same way? If that person caught the burgler about to leave the house, clearly showing no threat to the kids upstairs, and then continued to beat them even after they were clearly incapacitated and posing no threat to person or to property?

For me the whole argument centres around the rights of the homeowner, and I think that it is completely correct that the law does what it can to ensure that people don't get prosecuted when the whole situation has come about because of the illegal actions of another. But at the same time I don't think the law should give carte blanche to people to beat burglars to death without good reason. That doesn't come from any concern for the 'rights' of the burglar but instead from the desire for the law to encourage rational behaviour and the idea that killing people without good reason is generally not a good thing.

[Mirra]

Id still feel the same way, kill them/maim them, whatever happens happens.

[Lord Roger Hunt]

My mate was killed by a householder a few years ago. He was in someone's garden when the guard dogs (rotweillers) discovered him an alerted their Owner, the householder, who came out of the house to see what the dogs were barking at - he was accompanied by two adult friends (one being the householder's wife).

They found my mate quite easily, and first knocked him to the ground, then householder stabbed him through the heart four times with a garden fork whilst he two mates watched.  The householder claimed that my mate, who was unarmed at the time, had in fact attacked him and his two friends so, as he feared for their lives, he had acted in self-defence.  Of course, my mate couldn't disprove this because he was dead.

The jury found the housholder not guilty of murder or, in fact, of any offence.

So, as most of you say, if you get your story right, you can get away with murder.

[RougeLantern]

Thought you was old bill Rog? You have criminal mates? Makes sense actually...

[Lord Roger Hunt]

Thought you was old bill Rog? You have criminal mates? Makes sense actually...

I actually do have mates who are criminals, in fact, some of them I met first when I arrested them (I was in the CID and had the attitude that, in some case but not all, 'there but for the grace of God go I' so tried to treat them with a degree of humanity).

But, no, not in this case, my mate was a serving police officer who was killed by a criminal who knew how to work 'the system'.

[Smashedin]

My mate was killed by a householder a few years ago. He was in someone's garden when the guard dogs (rotweillers) discovered him an alerted their Owner, the householder, who came out of the house to see what the dogs were barking at - he was accompanied by two male adult friends.

They found my mate quite easily, and first knocked him to the ground, then householder stabbed him through the heart four times with a garden fork whilst he two mates watched.  The householder claimed that my mate, who was unarmed at the time, had in fact attacked him and his two friends so, as he feared for their lives, he had acted in self-defence.  Of course, my mate couldn't disprove this because he was dead.

The jury found the housholder not guilty of murder or, in fact, of any offence.

So, as most of you say, if you get your story right, you can get away with murder.

No disrespect, but what was your friend doing in the persons garden? And how do you know the person's story was contrary to the truth?

Again, I mean no offense, I'm just genuinely curious.

[Lord Roger Hunt]

No offence taken.

My friend John was on surveillance duty accompanied by another police colleague who witnessed the confrontation (although not the fatal stabbing), albeit whilst fleeing the garden (it's what we're all told to do - to leg it - to save confirming that it was police operation).  As John was wearing dark clothing and a balaclava, the criminals and his friends said that they were scared by his appearance and, when he attacked all three of them, they had to defend themselves.  But John's colleague said that he saw them standing over him and heard them discuss 'blowing his head off' but was stabbed instead.

It was a case of three against one, they stuck to their story and that was that. 

[Slave]

Very similar to what Kenny Noye did then Roger.

[Lord Roger Hunt]

Very similar to what Kenny Noye did then Roger.

Yep, that's the one. John and I became friends when we did some training together with the Royal Marines in Devonport and I roomed with him. Although he was a little older than me, we were both married with small children, whilst the rest were young lads mostly, so we used to share a brew together after an exercise.   Nice bloke, good pro but guard dogs (and cows) were always a problem in our job...

[Aztera]

It will soon be legal to defend your property any way you see fit if you catch a burglar in your house, under new laws being brought in by the government. This includes stabbing the intruder.
About time the public were given rights to defend their homes from these horrible robbing twats.

http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-13957587

About fucking time!

[helmboy_nige]

Doesn't seem to me that govt is going to let people do what they want to burglars who enter their property.  I always look at it in terms of what the police are allowed to do.

If a burglar broke into a house and the police were called they would not be allowed to stab/kill the intruder unless the intruder attacked them with a weapon.  Personally I feel that we should be allowed to defend our homes with "reasonable" force.  that does not include shooting someone in the back that's fleeing the scene.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Caught a burglar once in my Grandas house. Wasnt pretty, daft little muppet. This was years ago, just so happened a few rather large fellas and a bloke who looked a bit like me went past and he fell into the back of a transit and threw himself viciously into these blokes fists, feet and then put his arm in the van door while it was windy. Fucking nutter I tell you! Must of been on drugs or something I think, I Dont think he broke into a house again to be honest! Poor lad!

Id happily recreate the curb scene from American History X if someone broke into my place. Thats if my two dogs dont tear them apart first. My kids live here and if you come into my house all bets are off. I dont care what happens to you I just know I wont stop hitting you til you stop moving. Ive got a bat in the bedroom and two rottweilers. I dont care what happens to them, should I get banged up for it then got out and seen the said scumbag sitting in a wheelchair cabbaged, I wouldnt feel bad, infact id be tempted to tip him out of his wheelchair. I hate scumbags who do this kind of thing and if you enter another persons home uninvited intending to do them over, especially if theres kids there all bets are off im afraid. You deserve to be hurt, BADLY!

Good stuff.

Any burglar that breaks into any house should be in fear of their life and they should get fuck all help from the state.

It is THEIR choice to burgle a house it is THEIR choice to put people in danger.

There should be a mandatory 20 year sentence for it as well. Fucking c*nts. All of them.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

You're right to an extent. No one has a right to threaten anyone's safety.

But what if the burgler is a 16 year old kid who isn't carrying a weapon, was just looking to sneak in, grab a few things and get out without hurting anyone. You think he deserves death for that?

Yeah.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

I can't tell if you're being sarcastic or not with the stairs comment, but I'm saying purposely disabling someone is too far, especially if they're not violent in the first place.

They have broken into YOUR house with intentions unknown. There are plenty of fucking lunatics out there.

I think while you are taking your time to be touchy feely (Running the risk of having your feet blowtorched off, or being nailed to the floor or to have your vision wrecked for life - as has happened in several incidents) I would be defending my life, my wife and my property.

Fuck them. It is THEIR choice to be in YOUR House. It's not 'accidental' - the second they cross that door is the second their rights have fucking expired. They deserve anything and everything they get. If more people thought like this then burglaries would fucking drop like a stone.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

I wouldn't want to find out how it would play out either but I'd never go in with the intention of seriously harming someone, if that how it played out though, it wouldn't bother me.

You probably will be in major danger then. Because they'll go in with the intention of seriously harming you. And your family.

They are c*nts. That's why they are in your house.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

If somebody went further and deliberately 'fully killed' the burgler would you feel the same way? If that person caught the burgler about to leave the house, clearly showing no threat to the kids upstairs, and then continued to beat them even after they were clearly incapacitated and posing no threat to person or to property?

For me the whole argument centres around the rights of the homeowner, and I think that it is completely correct that the law does what it can to ensure that people don't get prosecuted when the whole situation has come about because of the illegal actions of another. But at the same time I don't think the law should give carte blanche to people to beat burglars to death without good reason. That doesn't come from any concern for the 'rights' of the burglar but instead from the desire for the law to encourage rational behaviour and the idea that killing people without good reason is generally not a good thing.

Wont' someone think of the burglars?

[Andy @ Allerton!]

My mate was killed by a householder a few years ago. He was in someone's garden when the guard dogs (rotweillers) discovered him an alerted their Owner, the householder, who came out of the house to see what the dogs were barking at - he was accompanied by two male adult friends.

They found my mate quite easily, and first knocked him to the ground, then householder stabbed him through the heart four times with a garden fork whilst he two mates watched.  The householder claimed that my mate, who was unarmed at the time, had in fact attacked him and his two friends so, as he feared for their lives, he had acted in self-defence.  Of course, my mate couldn't disprove this because he was dead.

The jury found the housholder not guilty of murder or, in fact, of any offence.

So, as most of you say, if you get your story right, you can get away with murder.

So that's not really part of this thread then mate? It's a calculated murder of a police officer.

[Lord Roger Hunt]

So that's not really part of this thread then mate? It's a calculated murder of a police officer.

I agree Andy but I just want to illustrate that, if your minded to, you get your story right and stick to it, you can get away with murder which, judging by some of the scenarios within this thread, quite a few would consider, if the 'opportunity' arose.   I know most of it is playground talk but there is a serious side to this also.

But, as most know, Noye didn't get away with 'it', he's now serving life for another murder so they'll get you in end....look at the Lawrence  murder, yes, the cops cocked it up at  the start (although not as much as people are led to believe) but they will keep on plugging away until they get their man/woman, in this a case, a pair of horrible bastards.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

I agree Andy but I just want to illustrate that, if your minded to, you get your story right and stick to it, you can get away with murder which, judging by some of the scenarios within this thread, quite a few would consider, if the 'opportunity' arose.   I know most of it is playground talk but there is a serious side to this also.

Yeah fair enough mate. That's the big fear - that it can lead to entrapment. And that's valid.

But the other side of the coin is waking up and finding someone in your house - never happened to me yet - but I've found a few moping around in the garden and I've gone at them (Rightly or wrongly) because I'm protecting my property and more importantly my missus (And the cats!)

[Lord Roger Hunt]

Yeah fair enough mate. That's the big fear - that it can lead to entrapment. And that's valid.

But the other side of the coin is waking up and finding someone in your house - never happened to me yet - but I've found a few moping around in the garden and I've gone at them (Rightly or wrongly) because I'm protecting my property and more importantly my missus (And the cats!)

The Law is clear here Andy, if you genuinely fear for your or someone's else life, you can use a proportionate amount of force to defend yourself, even if this means killing the intruder.  But the key word is proportionate.  So, if you find some kids in your garden and they start gobbing off so you hit one over head with a hammer, that would be disproportinate. 

However, if these kids made in your direction and you thought you saw them holding a knife in their hands (maybe you saw it glinting) well then, you could defend yourself with the hammer.

It's all to do with your state of mind and motivation, was it genuine fear ... or anger.

Noye claimed that the three of them were scared so he felt he had to stab John, even though he was on the ground defenceless, the jury believed him.

And yes, I am still a bit bitter about it....

[Andy @ Allerton!]

The Law is clear here Andy, if you genuinely fear for your or someone's else life, you can use a proportionate amount of force to defend yourself, even if this means killing the intruder.  But the key word is proportionate.  So, if you find some kids in your garden and they start gobbing off so you hit one over head with a hammer, that would be disproportinate. 

However, if these kids made in your direction and you thought you saw them holding a knife in their hands (maybe you saw it glinting) well then, you could defend yourself with the hammer.

It's all to do with your state of mind and motivation, was it genuine fear ... or anger.

Noye claimed that the three of them were scared so he felt he had to stab John, even though he was on the ground defenceless, the jury believed him.

And yes, I am still a bit bitter about it....

I can imagine you are mate - and quite rightly too. Did they end up getting done for someone else or are they still at large?

[Aztera]

Fuck them. It is THEIR choice to be in YOUR House. It's not 'accidental' - the second they cross that door is the second their rights have fucking expired. They deserve anything and everything they get. If more people thought like this then burglaries would fucking drop like a stone.

Hear hear!

As far as self defence goes, I doubt I could kill anyone but I could seriously injure someone if they did something to me or someone close to me!

[Lord Roger Hunt]

Noye is doing life for the M25 'road rage' murder back in 2000/1 - he was also sent down for the Brinks Mat bullion robbery which John was working on.

Noye has a vast amount of money and is spending it on the best lawyers who are trying to find a way of getting him out....in fact, I have an intense dislike of criminal defence barristers. To them, it's all a game, an intellectual dual with their mate on the otherside of the Court....all whislt they're making vast amount of money....bastards...

Anyway, that is another topic, so I'll stop there.....

[Slave]

If more people thought like this then burglaries would fucking drop like a stone.

Or, more burglars will get themselves tooled up and the violence will increase. I understand where you're coming from but that's my concern.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Or, more burglars will get themselves tooled up and the violence will increase. I understand where you're coming from but that's my concern.

Most are 'tooled up' anyway. They aren't coming into your house for a nice chat and bread and scones. Most are relying on people shitting it and letting them get away with it.

[Slave]

Most are 'tooled up' anyway. They aren't coming into your house for a nice chat and bread and scones. Most are relying on people shitting it and letting them get away with it.

You're just guessing there. I'm sure there's plenty that carry weapons but there will be many that don't.

[saoirse08]

Most are 'tooled up' anyway. They aren't coming into your house for a nice chat and bread and scones. Most are relying on people shitting it and letting them get away with it.

Talking with the copper after an attempted break in at my house last month, he reckons most burglaries are done mainly by opportunists. Where I live there has been a spate of houses done by forcing the handle on the plastic doors. If they are unlocked, they're easy to force. I made the mistake of going to bed without locking the fucking door. Second attempt in six months. Five or six in our street alone in the past six months or so.

I'm not sure if the group of lads who tried to get in to my gaff the other week were tooled up or not. It's not something you think about at 2.30 am with kids in the house. As soon as I heard the door go downstairs, I was out of bed and down the stairs like a shithouse rat. They legged it. I didn't pursue them. I Phoned the bizzies and let them deal with.

And the Missus always locks the door now. I can't be trusted. 

[Slave]

In fact doing a quick google it seems that most burglars are unarmed. If that's the case, if burglars think their life will be in danger if they get discovered, wouldn't they be more likely to carry a weapon rather than change their career choice.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

In fact doing a quick google it seems that most burglars are unarmed. If that's the case, if burglars think their life will be in danger if they get discovered, wouldn't they be more likely to carry a weapon rather than change their career choice.

No. Speaking to the fella that did our alarm burglars tool themselves up once they break in.

Their two main M.Os are;

1. Stick a pan of water on the stove and let it boil (To throw at anyone disturbing them)

2. Grab a knife out of a drawer and use that if anyone disturbs them


If you get to them in your house they will almost certainly have a weapon to hand. If they go upstairs and you do nothing then you really are fucked.

[WEST HAM PAUL]

In fact doing a quick google it seems that most burglars are unarmed. If that's the case, if burglars think their life will be in danger if they get discovered, wouldn't they be more likely to carry a weapon rather than change their career choice.

Most burglers could be unharmed but you in your house are unaware of this. I completely agree with Mirra & Bigdavalad.  You enter someone elses house you take the consequences that may happen. Most burglers are little piss ants or smackheads who generally pick there houses by whos in them ie weak & old people. Most are gutless pieces of shit when you front them have no balls and only pick easy targets . Those you here about getting a slap by the householder are normally the ones by chance picked the wrong house such as not and OAP or weaker members of society.

Its the same with street robbieries most victims are young, old and weaker looking members of society. they only go for bigger, stronger people when there in a gang.

Here in Essex we had one of the countrys most prolific burglers he admitted 700 burgleries. what did he get sentenced too. NOTHING he got a new house and a fresh start in Chelmsford  as he promised not to do it again. Guess what he re offended within 6 months and was back behind bars .

ps Ive seen a picture of Mirra & you only break into his house if you blind & Suicidal

[Cribertinokes]

The Law is clear here Andy, if you genuinely fear for your or someone's else life, you can use a proportionate amount of force to defend yourself, even if this means killing the intruder.  But the key word is proportionate.  So, if you find some kids in your garden and they start gobbing off so you hit one over head with a hammer, that would be disproportinate. 

However, if these kids made in your direction and you thought you saw them holding a knife in their hands (maybe you saw it glinting) well then, you could defend yourself with the hammer.

It's all to do with your state of mind and motivation, was it genuine fear ... or anger.

Exactly where I stand.

[Lord Roger Hunt]

No. Speaking to the fella that did our alarm burglars tool themselves up once they break in.

Their two main M.Os are;

1. Stick a pan of water on the stove and let it boil (To throw at anyone disturbing them)

2. Grab a knife out of a drawer and use that if anyone disturbs them


If you get to them in your house they will almost certainly have a weapon to hand. If they go upstairs and you do nothing then you really are fucked.

The burglars response is the same as everybody else, it's either governed by fear or anger. Some, very few in my opinion, go tooled up becausethat puts them at risk of being charged with 'aggravated burglary' if caught, which attracts fearsome sentences.  The problem is these type of burglaries, although rare, attract huge headlines which have a disproportinate impact of the overall community.

My belief is, based on having locked up quite a few burglars albeit a long time ago, that the majority want to get in and out with the minimum of fuss and bother. And, like most animals, they'll only fight if they feel cornered and in danger of serious assault from the householder.

What do burglars fear the most?  In my time, without doubt, a noisy dog.  Don't think it's changed much....

[Slave]

No. Speaking to the fella that did our alarm burglars tool themselves up once they break in.

Their two main M.Os are;

1. Stick a pan of water on the stove and let it boil (To throw at anyone disturbing them)

2. Grab a knife out of a drawer and use that if anyone disturbs them


If you get to them in your house they will almost certainly have a weapon to hand. If they go upstairs and you do nothing then you really are fucked.

Well I can't find anything which says burglars are more likely to be armed, it seems generally accepted that burglars more often than not don't carry weapons.

So just accepting that, whether you agree or not, if burglars think their life will be in danger if they get discovered, wouldn't they be more likely to carry a weapon?

[WEST HAM PAUL]

Apparantly Blinds on your windows & doors are good as difficult to get through and noisy. if you havent a dog.....

[Lord Roger Hunt]

Apparantly Blinds on your windows & doors are good as difficult to get through and noisy. if you havent a dog.....

Yes, good call...

[WEST HAM PAUL]

Well I can't find anything which says burglars are more likely to be armed, it seems generally accepted that burglars more often than not don't carry weapons.

So just accepting that, whether you agree or not, if burglars think their life will be in danger if they get discovered, wouldn't they be more likely to carry a weapon?

No i dont think they will. As they will be tooled up & get charged with aggrevated burglary and through my job having met many burglers most are as ive mentioned little gutless piss ants & smackheads so personally they would be worried i think not all but many.

[Sammy5IsAlive]

Wont' someone think of the burglars?

If you actually bothered to read my post you'd see that

"That doesn't come from any concern for the 'rights' of the burglar but instead from the desire for the law to encourage rational behaviour and the idea that killing people without good reason is generally not a good thing"

[Slave]

No i dont think they will. As they will be tooled up & get charged with aggrevated burglary and through my job having met many burglers most are as ive mentioned little gutless piss ants & smackheads so personally they would be worried i think not all but many.

I'm not so sure. A culture of vigilantism isn't going to stop smackheads robbing, it will just make them more fearful. I could be wrong though.