Author Topic: Munich 1958  (Read 63715 times)

Offline Mr Mojo Risin'

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #40 on: February 6, 2008, 08:30:35 am »
R.I.P to all who suffered.
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Offline NickoH

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #41 on: February 6, 2008, 08:41:52 am »
Justice for Munich?

Sorry - what does that mean exactly?

Justice for Hillsborough - we all know exactly what that means. Justice for the 96 has never materialised. Nobody was held accountable for the murder of our fans that day. Justice is still being sought. Duckenfield ducked.

But Justice for Munich? For what exactly? It was a terrible accident. Where is the injustice to be able to fight for Justice?

Just doesn't sit right reading that statement.

Fully understand the post made, and who posted it, I just don't understand that line. sorry.

Simple really.......

What is clear from the above is the depth of injustice endured by the bereaved and survivors of Munich, not least Captains Thain and Rayment and their families who fought for so long to clear their names. The parallels with Hillsborough are clear, right down to the failure to call witnesses and the review and alteration of statements.
I clutch the wire fence until my fingers bleed,
A wound that will not heal, a heart that cannot feel.
Hoping that the horror will recede,
Hoping that tomorrow we'll all be freed.........JUSTICE.

Offline NickoH

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #42 on: February 6, 2008, 08:42:37 am »
R.I.P. to all who died in that terrible tragedy.

YNWA
I clutch the wire fence until my fingers bleed,
A wound that will not heal, a heart that cannot feel.
Hoping that the horror will recede,
Hoping that tomorrow we'll all be freed.........JUSTICE.

Offline Armin

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #43 on: February 6, 2008, 08:43:44 am »
Justice for Munich?

Sorry - what does that mean exactly?

Justice for Hillsborough - we all know exactly what that means. Justice for the 96 has never materialised. Nobody was held accountable for the murder of our fans that day. Justice is still being sought. Duckenfield ducked.

But Justice for Munich? For what exactly? It was a terrible accident. Where is the injustice to be able to fight for Justice?

Just doesn't sit right reading that statement.

Fully understand the post made, and who posted it, I just don't understand that line. sorry.

Today isn't the appropriate time to get into the detail of Phil's post. With it being the anniversary its sufficient to pay respects to those that died. There's a thread in the Hillsborough forum you can use if you want to debate details within the article, although not today please.

Cheers.
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Offline Sat1

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #44 on: February 6, 2008, 09:13:32 am »
R.I.P

Offline vicgill

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #45 on: February 6, 2008, 09:17:15 am »
Justice for Munich?

Sorry - what does that mean exactly?

Justice for Hillsborough - we all know exactly what that means. Justice for the 96 has never materialised. Nobody was held accountable for the murder of our fans that day. Justice is still being sought. Duckenfield ducked.

But Justice for Munich? For what exactly? It was a terrible accident. Where is the injustice to be able to fight for Justice?

Just doesn't sit right reading that statement.

Fully understand the post made, and who posted it, I just don't understand that line. sorry.




Both tradgedies were the victims of official cover ups where the blame was laid at the feet of innocent people.

RIP....YNWA
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Offline Millie

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #46 on: February 6, 2008, 09:30:41 am »
R I P
"If you can't say anything nice, don't say nothing at all"  Thumper (1942)

Justice for the 96

I'm a Believer

Offline shanklygateslfc

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #47 on: February 6, 2008, 09:35:12 am »
R.I.P to all those who lost their lives on that fateful day.

YNWA
NO ONE PERSON IS BIGGER THAN THIS FOOTBALL CLUB!!!!!

YNWA - Justice for the 96 - R.I.P.  Never Forgotten, Forever with us.

Offline James--5Star--Reds

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Re: Munich Remembered
« Reply #48 on: February 6, 2008, 10:47:24 am »
RIP

Offline i_wun_bite

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Re: Munich Remembered
« Reply #49 on: February 6, 2008, 10:52:08 am »
RIP

Offline Bennyo

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Re: Munich Remembered
« Reply #50 on: February 6, 2008, 10:52:41 am »
hear hear. Death highlights the shallowness of football rivalry. Only fools hang on to it in times like this.

Offline culbs

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Re: Munich Remembered
« Reply #51 on: February 6, 2008, 10:53:58 am »
RIP

May you never be forgotton.
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Offline RedBoywonder

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Re: Munich Remembered
« Reply #52 on: February 6, 2008, 10:54:34 am »
Its only a game.

RIP
Justice for the 96.

Offline WOOLTONIAN

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Re: Munich Remembered
« Reply #53 on: February 6, 2008, 10:55:03 am »
God bless Duncan Edwards, He could have been Manchesters very own Billy Liddell.

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Offline tobyo

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Re: Munich Remembered
« Reply #54 on: February 6, 2008, 10:57:40 am »
Its only a game.

RIP

Its not though is it? For some of us its a lot more than that.

Offline SquirmyRooter

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Re: Munich Remembered
« Reply #55 on: February 6, 2008, 10:59:14 am »


RIP The Busby Babes
« Last Edit: February 6, 2008, 11:10:22 am by Armin »
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Offline Peeker

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Re: Munich Remembered
« Reply #56 on: February 6, 2008, 11:01:44 am »
Think a lot of people forget that Matt Busby IS connected with Liverpool Football Club, so I would hope that a minutes silence is observed by everyone everywhere.

Offline SquirmyRooter

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Re: Munich Remembered
« Reply #57 on: February 6, 2008, 11:02:51 am »
Think a lot of people forget that Matt Busby IS connected with Liverpool Football Club, so I would hope that a minutes silence is observed by everyone everywhere.

There won't be a minutes silence anywhere but Old trafford I think, and the England game tonight, i believe 4 of the players who died were England regulars.
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Offline Armin

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Re: Munich Remembered
« Reply #58 on: February 6, 2008, 11:04:14 am »
First off the article quoted in the opening thread is available in full on the Rawk opinion page.

Secondly, today is the anniversary and should be respected as such. It's not the day for arguing over whats gone on since.

If you want to pay your respects please use the thread in opinion. Some of these posts will be moved over there.

Thanks.
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Offline MichaelA

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #59 on: February 6, 2008, 11:04:16 am »
I've seen and read and heard a lot about the Munich air disaster over the last few days. The bravery and dignity of men like Harry Gregg is both moving and inspirational. I never ever want to see Manchester United win anything, or succeed at anything! I want it to rain over Old Trafford every day, but I also want these people to be remembered with respect at grounds all over the country this week.

Offline SwedenRed

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #60 on: February 6, 2008, 11:12:25 am »
RIP to those who died in the plane crash.

Offline rednich85

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #61 on: February 6, 2008, 11:13:28 am »
RIP
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Offline trigger

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #62 on: February 6, 2008, 11:15:54 am »
It's times like this petty differences should be forgotten....yes both clubs have their knobheads, but that doesn't mean we all are. The usual suspects are on posting their "Inflammatory posts" trying to stir shit up, but i think on the main the more mature of us realise that human beings lost their lives, and families lost loved ones.

so show some fuckin respect

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Offline MichaelA

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #63 on: February 6, 2008, 11:25:50 am »
This is a topic to show a little respect for the men who died in the Munich Disaster. It's not an opportunity to score cheap points at the expense of The Corporation. Save that for another day, and indeed another forum.

Offline Andy G

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #64 on: February 6, 2008, 11:44:55 am »
Like a few others on here, my Dad told me about the terrible events of 50 years ago and how shocked and saddened everyone was in Liverpool and throughout the country.  I have read quite a bit on Munich over the past 25 years, but there were a few things that I did not know or had forgotten, so it was as informative as emotional.  Thanks for the post Phil.

At a time when all football fans must start coming together for the future benefit of the game in general, there is no greater reminder that we are all of the same family, whatever club we support.
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Offline mike777

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #65 on: February 6, 2008, 11:45:02 am »
My arl fella also says (and he's died in the wool LFC as well) Duncan Edwards could have been the best british player there was.
Then you listen to the dignity of the likes of Charlton and Harry Gregg as well.
May they all rest in peace.

Offline NickoH

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #66 on: February 6, 2008, 12:20:44 pm »
An Excellent Arguement, well put. I'd rather stay and kick against the pricks thanks.

Did you actually read BHB's posts ?

If he was a friend of mine I wouldn't be sticking up for him, quite the opposite.

And -

This is a topic to show a little respect for the men who died in the Munich Disaster. It's not an opportunity to score cheap points at the expense of The Corporation. Save that for another day, and indeed another forum.
I clutch the wire fence until my fingers bleed,
A wound that will not heal, a heart that cannot feel.
Hoping that the horror will recede,
Hoping that tomorrow we'll all be freed.........JUSTICE.

Offline squishy

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #67 on: February 6, 2008, 12:37:41 pm »
jockies scar : you can have your opinions mate, but if people want to pay there respects on the anniversery of a terrible tragedy who the fuck are you to have a go????

Offline Jockies Car

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #68 on: February 6, 2008, 12:38:45 pm »
jockies scar : you can have your opinions mate, but if people want to pay there respects on the anniversery of a terrible tragedy who the fuck are you to have a go????

I think the point is that I CANT have my opinions.

Offline Mavis Cruet

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #69 on: February 6, 2008, 12:38:46 pm »
As I come from a family of egg chasers, I've never been told anything about what happened. Today I have been watching programs about the disaster on BBC's iplayer and found it very emotional.

Thanks Phil for posting this article, it's yet more information I never knew about. RIP the Busby Babes and all who died.

And to those arguing in this thread - take it somewhere else eh?

Offline Armin

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #70 on: February 6, 2008, 12:51:39 pm »
I think the point is that I CANT have my opinions.

Don't be such a drama queen for fucks sake. No-one's stopping you having your opinions just asking you not to use this thread to voice them. Is that such a big ask?  If you want your say try here:

6 pages of debate


or contribute here.

No shortage of debate or contrasting opinions. But using the one thread on this site where people have chosen to record their respect or memories of the tragedy to climb on your free speech soapbox and call their sentiments into question is low. You don't know them and they don't know you so if you've nothing to contribute just stay out.
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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #71 on: February 6, 2008, 01:29:48 pm »
An excellent article, full of stuff I didn't know, or only half knew.

Some good contributions too from many people, including the United lad.

Given his young age, it's amazing to think that Duncan Edwards, had he lived, could have been playing alongside Best and Law as well as Charlton.
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Offline Cassiel

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #72 on: February 6, 2008, 01:48:49 pm »
Great post. Thanks for the link to the Mike Kemble site as well - the research that went into his piece about the disaster is phenomenal. A fascinating read. Go there if you've got a spare half hour.

The BBC 4 Nation on Film programme about the crash (repeated tonight, but available on the BBC Sport website too) was fabulous too, even the two old dears who were like elderly mournful female versions of the Chuckle Brothers. There's a clip of the United dressing room after the match against Wednesday, their first following the crash. The haunted, glassy looks in the eyes of Harry Gregg and Bill Foulkes, the only two survivors who played, tell their own story of what those men had experienced.

Anyone who loves football mourns that day and what was lost.

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Offline cal_liverpoolfc

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #73 on: February 6, 2008, 02:17:32 pm »
Think a lot of people forget that Matt Busby IS connected with Liverpool Football Club, so I would hope that a minutes silence is observed by everyone everywhere.
great point
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Offline cal_liverpoolfc

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #74 on: February 6, 2008, 02:18:18 pm »
R.I.P Busy babes

YNWA
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Offline Zeppelin

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #75 on: February 6, 2008, 02:58:14 pm »

I visited Anfield in the aftermath of Hillsborough and queued for hours like everyone else.
While the queue snaked along Priory Road a van stopped opposite The Arkles and a woman got out of the drivers seat,4 lads got out of the back. They had Man Utd scarves on and the woman was carrying a bunch of red roses.
They were standing looking at the size of the queue and obviously debating how long it would take to get into Anfield.
They approached the part of the line I was in and asked if we would take the flowers in for them. The woman explained that they had been the day before but after queing for 4 hours had to get to work.

2 of the lads gave me their scarves and asked if I would tie them on The Kop.
The flowers on the pitch were almost to The Anfield Rd goalmouth by this time and nobody else was allowed onto The Kop as it was completely full of scarves etc.

I laid our flowers and scarves together and noticed a few Man Utd scarves already in there.
I remember thinking at the time if things would change because of this.
The answer as we all know is that it has gone worse if anything.



That's something I remember very clearly - there were many many Man Utd fans at Anfield after Hillsborough and they showed their respects. We owe it to those who died at Hillsborough to give the same respect to the United players who perished in Munich. Any dislike we may have for United should extend to the football pitch and no further.

There are too many fans on both sides who choose to forget the solidarity we showed to United after Munich and they showed to us after Hillsborough.

Offline HiroProtagonist

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #76 on: February 6, 2008, 04:10:19 pm »
RIP

I don't want to say too much as I don't know too much about the subject and it's a very sensitive subject. But times you just have to look passed rivalry and football, and you have to realise there are things in this world that are much more important. Rest in peace.
« Last Edit: February 6, 2008, 04:32:51 pm by MEPA »

Offline PhilScraton

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #77 on: February 6, 2008, 05:52:13 pm »
Antoin Murphy from Dublin wrote this in today's Irish Times ... it reminds us that the majority of those who died were not directly associated with Man Utd ... and how long term was the impact of the disaster:

Many people remember Kennedy's assassination in Dallas. My memory, indeed my nightmare, was that afternoon in Munich on February 6th, 1958, when, in the words of Frank Taylor, "a team died". That was the afternoon when the horrible news came through to our home that the plane carrying the Manchester United team, the famous Busby Babes, had crashed in Munich.

My father was the chief sports reporter with Independent Newspapers at the time. His name was WP Murphy, affectionately known to many soccer supporters as Waste Paper Murphy.

This was Dublin of the 50s when wit was one of the few assets that kept people laughing as the economy moved through the throes of a frightful recession marked by annual rates of emigration of 60,000. Few people had televisions but soccer was followed with great passion.

Manchester United, then as today, had a huge support base among Irish supporters. Soccer was going through a high in Dublin at that time for, the year before, there had been the famous 1-1 draw against the might of England at Dalymount Park, a game which Ireland should have won but for Johnny Atyeo's last-minute goal to draw the game for England - my father describing the after-effects of this goal with the line "the silence could be heard in O'Connell Street".

He had regularly travelled to Old Trafford to report on United and was a good friend of Sir Matt Busby and his Welsh-born assistant, Jimmy Murphy. More particularly, he was a good friend of all the English journalists aboard that fatal flight.

These were colleagues whom he regularly met on his travels. Indeed, in the early 1950s I have memories of him heading off for matches in England laden down with brown paper parcels tied up with string. These I discovered contained the finest meat from Buckley's of Moore Street which he brought over for his journalistic friends who were still enduring food rationing across the water.

The journalists liked to travel at the back of the plane, apparently to be close to the bar, and it was that part of the plane that took the full brunt of the crash, with the result that eight out of the 11 journalists on board died.

They included such well-known figures as Frank Swift, the former Manchester City and England goalkeeper recycled as a journalist, Alf Clarke of the Manchester Evening Chronicle, Don Davies of the Manchester Guardian and the famous Henry Rose of the Daily Express.

I remember meeting most of them in the press box in Dalymount Park as they typed out their stories and rang them through to their offices. Rose was an incredible extrovert. I remember crowds of Dubliners milling around the press box after games and giving Henry "the bird". Henry would rise and, like a conductor, direct the noise of the crowd. Ironically, Henry was a non-drinker but he still sat with his colleagues at the back of the plane.

As the names of the journalists killed in the crash came through, my father felt their losses acutely but there was one name missing, that of his very good friend, Frank Taylor, who reported for the News Chronicle and Daily Dispatch. His name did not appear among the survivors.

There was, however, a mysterious name, that of Andrew MacDonald, listed as a survivor. No one knew who he was. Was he a member of the crew or a Manchester United supporter?

It transpired that Frank Taylor, when brought to the hospital had, in his confused state, given his son's name, Andrew MacDonald, and the German doctors recorded him under that name. When the news filtered through that Frank, although badly injured, was alive, it was one of the rare pieces of good news of that harrowing week.

Frank, who spent many months in hospital, would later write a book, The Day a Team Died. In a way it was the wrong title because it was not just the team but nearly the whole of the Manchester soccer journalistic corps that died also.

It was a frightful week in that cold month of February 1958. There was to be good news later in 1958 as Northern Ireland reached the quarter-finals of the World Cup in Sweden with one of the Munich escapees, Harry Gregg (who rescued a number of people including a baby from the wreckage of the plane), playing in goal for them.

My father was one of two journalists - the other being Malcolm Brodie of the Belfast Telegraph - with the team. I remember him describing the touring party, saying that it consisted of the team, a couple of reserves, the manager, the masseur, two journalists and a couple of supporters. They would all travel in the same bus together across Sweden - quite a contrast to the fleets of planes accompanying World Cup squads today.
« Last Edit: February 6, 2008, 06:22:55 pm by PhilScraton »
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Offline terrymac

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #78 on: February 6, 2008, 06:04:50 pm »
Bought Frank Taylors book "the day a team died" a long time ago--really hit home with me.

Had a fascination with Duncan Edwards from me dad telling me about him --seemed like a monster.
Very sad
RIP
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Offline Kite

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #79 on: February 6, 2008, 06:28:58 pm »
Days like these make the rivalry just fade into insignificance.  Hearing the stories of how fans used to be in those days and the help and support that came from the whole of football including Liverpool F.C and Shanks really makes me nostalgic for an era that I'll never know.

Rival fans seem to be more intent on hating for the sake of it rather than the football involved.  Today lets remember the football and those that sadly passed away. 

My utmost respect and RIP. 



Who says fatties can't play football.......