Author Topic: Munich 1958  (Read 63540 times)

Offline PhilScraton

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Munich 1958
« on: January 20, 2008, 11:32:39 pm »
Munich
6 February 1958

The remarkable sequence of events that led to the crash-landing of a highly sophisticated British Airways’ Boeing 777 at London Heathrow on 17 January 2008 has been greeted with astonishment by aviation specialists. Some two miles out from its destination, 500 feet above the ground, Flight BA038 lost the power necessary to land normally. It happened without warning and the alarm system also failed. The pilot at the controls manually glided the plane down, dipping its nose to maximise length and lifting at the last minute to hurdle the 3 metre perimeter fence. All energy lost to the final manoeuvre the plane literally belly-flopped from 10 feet onto grass, severing the undercarriage and ploughing a 400 foot furrow to the edge of the runway. It was a highly skilful sequence of flying demanding calm concentration. The two pilots and 14 crew undoubtedly saved the lives of the 136 passengers. In the immediate aftermath ‘experts’ theorised the most likely cause to be a freak, localised weather glitch or pilot error. Unanimously they agreed that a system failure within the plane was highly unlikely. They were wrong.

Over the last decade we have become so accustomed to flying, reassured by statistics proclaiming its impressive safety record, well ahead of road or rail travel. Planes are technologically so advanced, runways are kept in excellent condition, pilots are highly trained and the aviation revolution has opened access beyond all expectations. While the cost to the environment and to communities is hotly debated the advances in safety are uncontested. Fifty years ago, however, things were massively different with much of the technology experimental, knowledge limited and conditions arbitrary. Few people flew. As a young child I remember waving off my sister from Speke Airport, now a Marriott Hotel, as she left for Lourdes. She was the only person in our extended family to have boarded a plane. Most of the men had been to sea, docking in ports throughout the world, but none had flown. I have flown more air miles in the last 8 months than in the first 35 years of my life. Living in Belfast I fly far more than I use any other form of transport. Flying has become habitual and within advanced industrial societies it embraces all classes.

As a young child football was my passion and Billy Liddell my hero. We were in the Second Division and not doing so well. Most of my mates were Blues although those kids whose families were less committed supported Wolves or Spurs or whoever else was winning. When Dad took me he’d buy a seat in the main stand and lift me over the turnstile. I’d sit on his knee for the game. The Kop was unbelievable to watch from the stand and the Boys’ Pen up in the top right corner looked frightening but exciting. One day both would be my graduation although I’d sometimes slip into The Paddock, close to the halfway line. If Billy and Tommy Younger were special, I looked to Duncan Edwards as an inspiration. If he could play for England so young, so could I! We didn’t have a telly but I read the reports and out the back I imagined I had all the moves. How I wished he’d played for us.

It was a cold evening in February 1958 when the radio broke the news that a plane carrying Manchester United’s team had crashed at Munich airport. The manager, the likeable Matt Busby, and his renowned ‘Busby Babes’, were among the dead and injured. It was devastating news especially as playing in Europe was a recent development. We were stunned and I remember going to bed that night, looking at the pictures of the team in my Football Diary and praying that the great Duncan would be alright. Soon we knew. Seven players, three United staff, seven journalists and three others had died. Duncan Edwards and Matt Busby were critically ill. Among the journalists the legendary Frank Swift, former Manchester City goalie, had died. I’d heard stories about his incredible agility and massive hand span. Duncan passed away 15 days later and a co-pilot also died in hospital. Nine players, including the young Bobby Charlton, survived as did the Captain James Thain and eleven others. While I was oblivious to what was happening in Manchester – despite it being only the other end of the East Lancs I’d never been there – I recall being deeply upset for a long time afterwards.

The European Cup had been introduced only three years earlier and United were the first English team involved in the 1956-7 season. They made it to the semis and lost to the brilliant Real Madrid who went on to win the trophy. In the 1957-8 season, having won the First Division, the Busby Babes were favourites to win in Europe. They beat Dukla Prague, the Czech champions, 3-1 on aggregate and in the quarter finals returned to the Balkans to play Yugoslavia’s Crvena Zvezda, known to us as Red Star Belgrade. On 14 January they beat Red Star 2-1 at Old Trafford. The midwinter return was in Belgrade on 5 February. They chartered a British European Airways’ 47 seater plane for the players, staff and journalists and flew via Munich for refuelling. Both pilots were experienced full captains and knew each other well. They landed the plane in Belgrade in very demanding weather conditions. So serious was the situation that airport control was unaware of their arrival until the plane appeared out of the gloom at the arrival building. The match was played and despite being 3-0 up at half-time United were held to a 3-3 draw, winning the tie 5-4 on aggregate. Several people joined the return flight to Manchester bringing the passenger list to 38.

Landing at Munich the runway was laden with slush. It continued to snow. Before leaving for Manchester the crew checked the wings to ensure no ice had formed and the pilots agreed de-icing was unnecessary. As Captain Thain had flown the outbound flight his friend Captain Rayment was at the controls so they had changed seats. As the plane accelerated down the runway the pilots realised there were problems with the engines and the pressure gauges on the instrument panel. They abandoned take-off and braked heavily, skidding to a halt through the slush. Apparently the cause was ‘boost-surging’ within the engines, a problem previously experienced with this type of airplane. Clearance was given for a second attempt to take off but once again, as the plane picked up speed down, the pilots aborted. This time the plane returned to the parking bay for checks. Photographs show clearly that there had been a fresh fall of snow on the tarmac adding to the existing slush. The passengers disembarked and the pilots and the station engineer decided against retuning the engines. A third take-off attempt would be made. The wings were observed as ice free but the runway was holding more snow and slush. A quick inspection of the runway by airport staff gave the go-ahead despite there being an uneven distribution of slush.

Reluctantly the team and other passengers returned to the aircraft. To overcome the problem with the engines the pilot opened the throttles more slowly as the plane went down the runway. It picked up speed towards take off and the pilots successfully dealt with some engine surging but the plane lost speed when it reached the undisturbed slush. Running out of tarmac it ploughed across snow-laden grass, smashed the perimeter fence and hit a house, a tree and a garage. The plane caught fire in small pockets but the main fuel tank remained secure. What followed were great moments of heroism as uninjured staff and players climbed back into the plane to rescue those trapped and injured, including Matt Busby. Already 20 people were dead. Once the rescue services arrived the fires were doused and Captain Rayment was cut free. He died later.

The Geman accident investigators arrived that evening. Examining the wreck without proper lighting they determined the wings were iced up beneath the subsequent fall of snow. That was their early determination as the sole cause of the disaster. BEA sent an investigation team to Munich. The team found no problems with the engines. All indications, including the opinion of the station engineer pointed to the cause of deceleration as slush on the runway. This was also Captain Thain’s opinion. Yet the West German Traffic and Transport Ministry announced that ‘the aircraft did not leave the ground’ probably ‘as the result of ice on the wings’. Captain Thain was criticised for not providing a satisfactory explanation as to why he did not ‘discontinue the final attempt to take off’. This determination laid the blame entirely at the door of the pilots. Alternatively, any finding of accumulation of snow and slush on the runway and inadequate inspection would place responsibility on the authorities.

In April 1958 a full German Inquiry was held behind closed doors. Witnesses were selected by the German senior investigator and, remarkably, the airport controllers were not called to give evidence. After much controversy and contradiction by ‘experts’ over ice on the wings it became clear that the Inquiry judge favoured icing as the principal cause of the disaster. ‘Other circumstances’ might have contributed but it was too late to determine their relevance.  A year and a month after the disaster the Inquiry report was released. Ice on the wings was the ‘decisive cause’ and the pilots, Rayment (dead) and Thain (alive), were held responsible. The BEA Safety Committee refuted the report’s conclusions although it accepted that icing on the wings might have contributed. Slush on the runway was a significant factor, Captain Thain was criticised for not occupying the seat in the cockpit appropriate for the overall captain of the aircraft. Thain, his career in ruins and under suspension, sought to clear his name. Yet a further hearing in 1960 criticised his failure to ensure that the wings were clear of ice and his employers sacked him, adding that he had breached regulations by being in the wrong seat. United’s negligence case against BEA was settled out of court.

Further investigative trials were held and expert opinion was sought as scientific knowledge moved on. In November 1965 a second inquiry was convened in Germany to consider the new evidence ands opinions. Some consideration of slush on the runway was accepted but ice on the wings ‘was still to be regarded as the essential cause …’ The following April the British Ministry of Aviation retorted that the ‘strong likelihood’ was ‘there was no significant icing during take off’ and ‘the principal cause of the crash was the effect of slush on the runway’. A decade after the disaster a British inquiry was convened. A key witness, previously not called - an aeronautical engineer first on the scene, stated categorically that the wings were not iced. Not only had the German authorities failed to call him to their inquiries but his written statement had been altered to omit a crucial element of his testimony. Photographic evidence, it seemed, had also been altered. In 1969 the British inquiry report concluded that slush had impeded the nose wheel of the aircraft and the subsequent drag on all wheels was the ‘prime cause’. Once deceleration had happened there was insufficient runway to pick up speed and ‘blame for the accident is NOT to be imputed to Captain Thain’. The German authorities rejected the findings. Captain Thain died of a heart attack at the young age of 54.

Mike Kemble, from whose research much of the above summary is derived, states that ‘there is no doubt … that a cover up was engineered by the West German authorities, possibly even as high as the Federal Government in Bonn. There was never going to be any doubt about the outcome from the first inspection of the crash site to the publication of the report’. He raises 10 important unanswered questions regarding the disaster and the aftermath and his detailed research has drawn on many other sources including Captain Rayment’s son, Steve. Mike Kemble’s excellent work, including photographic evidence and excerpts from the Captain’s log can be found at:
www.mikekemble.com/manutd/munich

Reading Mike’s work and a range of other material for this overview has answered many of the questions and concerns I remember thinking about in the late 1960s. I have always been uneasy that Munich was considered an ‘accident’ due mainly to pilot error. My analyses of disasters over the last 20 years have shown a clear and unambiguous reluctance of authorities to accept responsibility for their culpable acts or omissions, for their institutionalised negligent custom and practice. It suits those in power, whether public bodies or private corporations, to lay blame with individuals at the coal face rather than look to their institutionalised failings. What is clear from the above is the depth of injustice endured by the bereaved and survivors of Munich, not least Captains Thain and Rayment and their families who fought for so long to clear their names. The parallels with Hillsborough are clear, right down to the failure to call witnesses and the review and alteration of statements.

It is my view, and I hope it is shared by all who read this, that our commitment to Justice for the 96 should bring compassion for all who died and suffered in Munich 1958; that our common purpose should unite us; and that life and justice is all and football is our shared passion. But that passion should never spill over into hatred, into the vilification of the dead or into exacerbating the suffering of the bereaved and survivors. As I write this my tears are in sadness for those lost and injured and for those whose lives have been cut short by their pain. They are in anger towards those from both cities who have dared taunt the memory of the dead and desecrate the experiences of the bereaved and survivors.

Justice for Munich; Justice for Hillsborough; and remembering those who died:

Players

Geoff Bent
Roger Byrne (Capt)
Eddie Coleman
Duncan Edwards
Mark Jones
David Pegg
Tommy Taylor
Liam Whelan

Non Players

Tom Cable (Club Steward)
Walter Crickmer (Club Secretary)
Tom Curry (Club Trainer)
Alf Clarke (Manchester Evening Chronicle)
Don Davies (Manchester Guardian)
George Follows (Daily Herald)
Tom Jackson (Manchester Evening News)
Archie Ledbrooke (Daily Mirror)
Bela Miklos (Travel Agent)
Capt Ken Rayment (Pilot)
Henry Rose (Daily Express)
Willie Satinoff (Fan)
Eric Thompson (Daily Mail)
Frank Swift( News of the World)
Bert Whalley (Club Coach)


© Phil Scraton 2008

Professor Phil Scraton is Professor of Criminology at the Institute of Criminology and Criminal Justice, School of Law, Queen's University, Belfast. He is the author of two acclaimed works on the Hillsborough Disaster: "No Last Rights: The Denial of Justice and the Promotion of Myth in the Aftermath of the Hillsborough Disaster" and "Hillsborough: The Truth".
« Last Edit: February 6, 2011, 01:17:05 pm by Rushian »
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Offline Rhino

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #1 on: January 20, 2008, 11:47:29 pm »
Very imformative that, thanks :)

Offline classycarra

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #2 on: January 20, 2008, 11:52:25 pm »

It is my view, and I hope it is shared by all who read this, that our commitment to Justice for the 96 should bring compassion for all who died and suffered in Munich 1958;

i'd like to hope that everyone's compassion for humanity would bring this about to be perfectly honest


Justice for Munich; Justice for Hillsborough; and remembering those who died:

i don't get how the concept of justice comes into the 1958 munich tragedy to be honest. what exaactly do you mean by justice for munich?

EDIT: having read it in full i completetly understand what you mean, apologies for the misunderstanding


good post though thanks, will no doubt learn more when i finish reading it.


« Last Edit: January 24, 2008, 01:25:56 pm by classycarra »

Offline bigbear

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #3 on: January 20, 2008, 11:56:49 pm »
i'd like to hope that everyone's compassion for humanity would bring this about to be perfectly honest

i don't get how the concept of justice comes into the 1958 munich tragedy to be honest. what exaactly do you mean by justice for munich?





good post though thanks, will no doubt learn more when i finish reading it.
The justice element comes from the attempt to blame the incident on the air crew and not the airport authorities who sanctioned the take off on a runway with too much slush on it but then blamed the crash on ice on the wings.

I must confess, i hate any songs or piss-taking about Munich. It's something that should be respected however much we hate United.

Offline kavah

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #4 on: January 21, 2008, 04:57:23 am »
Didn't know about 90% of that Phil - excellent piece of work

Offline soozie

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #5 on: January 21, 2008, 05:54:22 am »
hi there,

as a journalist it's shocking to read the amount of journos who died, didnt know it was that many and they are largely forgotten RIP
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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #6 on: January 21, 2008, 09:03:06 am »
Great read Phil, thanks.
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Hoping that the horror will recede,
Hoping that tomorrow we'll all be freed.........JUSTICE.

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #7 on: January 21, 2008, 12:51:29 pm »
thanks for that Phil..

too much bad  blood around these days with the words Hillsborough & Munich bandied around like tit-for--tat comments...

education is the only key & I agree Phil,
respect is long overdue on both sides...

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Offline 24/7

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #8 on: January 21, 2008, 01:30:12 pm »
Didn't know about 90% of that Phil - excellent piece of work
Likewise - shocked at the way the enquiry was handled afterwards too, with selective witness calling and too many cosy assumptions, it seems - and the Old School Tie Club at work. Sounds altogether too familiar for comfort.

Thanks Phil - informative and gripping as usual.

Offline United

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #9 on: January 24, 2008, 02:29:21 am »
Thank you all for your kind words


There are some other things that happened over Munich that fans of both clubs would do well to remember

After the crash Liverpool were the first ones to ask us "What can we do to help?" In fact you offered us the pick of your reserve team

Bill Shankly, who was at Huddersfield at the time went to Munich to visit Matt Busby in hospital, apart from his immediate family Shanks was the only one to do so

That's why you will never hear us older United fans put you down, we'll laugh and take the Micheal when you lose to us, or accept it when you win, but deep down there is a fond memory and respect for you,


But again thank you - somethings are bigger than rivalry

Offline Phil M

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #10 on: January 24, 2008, 02:32:15 am »
Thank you all for your kind words


There are some other things that happened over Munich that fans of both clubs would do well to remember

After the crash Liverpool were the first ones to ask us "What can we do to help?" In fact you offered us the pick of your reserve team

Bill Shankly, who was at Huddersfield at the time went to Munich to visit Matt Busby in hospital, apart from his immediate family Shanks was the only one to do so

That's why you will never hear us older United fans put you down, we'll laugh and take the Micheal when you lose to us, or accept it when you win, but deep down there is a fond memory and respect for you,


But again thank you - somethings are bigger than rivalry

Well said mate.
It's true to say that if Shankly had told us to invade Poland we'd be queuing up 10 deep all the way from Anfield to the Pier Head.

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #11 on: January 24, 2008, 09:03:50 am »
Thank you all for your kind words


There are some other things that happened over Munich that fans of both clubs would do well to remember

After the crash Liverpool were the first ones to ask us "What can we do to help?" In fact you offered us the pick of your reserve team

Bill Shankly, who was at Huddersfield at the time went to Munich to visit Matt Busby in hospital, apart from his immediate family Shanks was the only one to do so

That's why you will never hear us older United fans put you down, we'll laugh and take the Micheal when you lose to us, or accept it when you win, but deep down there is a fond memory and respect for you,


But again thank you - somethings are bigger than rivalry

Well, I never knew that............! Cheers for the info.

And yes - some things are indeed bigger than rivalry - education is what is needed.

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #12 on: January 24, 2008, 09:47:02 am »
Thank you all for your kind words


There are some other things that happened over Munich that fans of both clubs would do well to remember

After the crash Liverpool were the first ones to ask us "What can we do to help?" In fact you offered us the pick of your reserve team

Bill Shankly, who was at Huddersfield at the time went to Munich to visit Matt Busby in hospital, apart from his immediate family Shanks was the only one to do so

That's why you will never hear us older United fans put you down, we'll laugh and take the Micheal when you lose to us, or accept it when you win, but deep down there is a fond memory and respect for you,


But again thank you - somethings are bigger than rivalry
It's the way football should be. The degeneration of the relationship with our nearest neighbours highlights it perfectly for me.

24 years ago we went to Wembley together, had a great time and sang Merseyside around the stadium. Can you imagine that happening now ?

Munich/Heysel/Hillsborough are not things that should be abused. As far as I'm concerned, if we sing about Munich we might as well be singing about Hillsborough as we open the door for others to do so and vice versa for Man Utd fans.


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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #13 on: January 24, 2008, 01:02:09 pm »
That's superb Phil. Many thanks for posting it. I'd move this to the front page straight away but perhaps it would be better to wait until the anniversary?
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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #14 on: January 24, 2008, 01:44:58 pm »
That's superb Phil. Many thanks for posting it. I'd move this to the front page straight away but perhaps it would be better to wait until the anniversary?

i was just going to suggest the same thing

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #15 on: January 24, 2008, 03:00:22 pm »
Philscraton  Massive respect mate for an excellent post

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #16 on: January 24, 2008, 04:18:58 pm »
That's superb Phil. Many thanks for posting it. I'd move this to the front page straight away but perhaps it would be better to wait until the anniversary?

I'd had the same idea Armin and was going to ask Phil for permission.
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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #17 on: January 24, 2008, 05:59:13 pm »
Thank you all for your kind words


There are some other things that happened over Munich that fans of both clubs would do well to remember

After the crash Liverpool were the first ones to ask us "What can we do to help?" In fact you offered us the pick of your reserve team

Bill Shankly, who was at Huddersfield at the time went to Munich to visit Matt Busby in hospital, apart from his immediate family Shanks was the only one to do so

That's why you will never hear us older United fans put you down, we'll laugh and take the Micheal when you lose to us, or accept it when you win, but deep down there is a fond memory and respect for you,


But again thank you - somethings are bigger than rivalry
Fair play to United after Hillsborough for offering any support we needed in our darkest days.
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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #18 on: January 24, 2008, 08:00:27 pm »
Thank you all for your kind words


There are some other things that happened over Munich that fans of both clubs would do well to remember

After the crash Liverpool were the first ones to ask us "What can we do to help?" In fact you offered us the pick of your reserve team

Bill Shankly, who was at Huddersfield at the time went to Munich to visit Matt Busby in hospital, apart from his immediate family Shanks was the only one to do so

That's why you will never hear us older United fans put you down, we'll laugh and take the Micheal when you lose to us, or accept it when you win, but deep down there is a fond memory and respect for you,


But again thank you - somethings are bigger than rivalry

Interesting original post, and didn't know the above either.
JFT97

Offline PhilScraton

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #19 on: January 25, 2008, 01:40:35 am »
Thanks to all for your responses ... and to United for a great post. I'm happy for the piece and responses to be moved if you feel it appropriate. Just hope that it all is sorted for the Manchester Derby and the FA takes a stand for the international. Bigotry and hatred have to be confronted and beaten - the respect between Matt Busby and Bill Shankly should be the marker for us all. Phil.
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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #20 on: January 25, 2008, 11:35:27 am »
As always Phil your work and detail is excellent, loads in there i did not know, keep up the good work.

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #21 on: January 25, 2008, 05:20:46 pm »
Thank you all for your kind words


There are some other things that happened over Munich that fans of both clubs would do well to remember

After the crash Liverpool were the first ones to ask us "What can we do to help?" In fact you offered us the pick of your reserve team

Bill Shankly, who was at Huddersfield at the time went to Munich to visit Matt Busby in hospital, apart from his immediate family Shanks was the only one to do so

That's why you will never hear us older United fans put you down, we'll laugh and take the Micheal when you lose to us, or accept it when you win, but deep down there is a fond memory and respect for you,


But again thank you - somethings are bigger than rivalry

 it was a different world back then, shame it's all been forgotten:

The flowers of Manchester ( The spinners 1958)

"The group the Spinners (led by Salford lad and  United fan Mick Groves) started to sing it and anyone who has heard their live version played to a solemn packed out crowd in a Liverpool club on one of their albums can't fail to be moved."

from       munich58.co.uk





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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #22 on: January 25, 2008, 05:55:56 pm »
As others have said turn the other cheek even though it's hard,
the ones that shout these things about Hillsborough and Heysel are the uneducated
and ignorant, and by uneducated I mean they do not know their own club's history nevermind
others. There are plenty of knobheads who follow this club aswell but they are a minority.
That is the reason threads like this one are important as it allows people to read the facts and the truth
behind important events and encourages understanding on both sides.

Its the generalisation that breaks my heart (Re KF) My best mate and I both being massive United fans turned up and placed a shirt at the Kemlyn Road end following Hillisborough out of respect for fans who died doing nothing more than following the club they love. I have the sense to realise that the rank and file Liverpool fan are fair minded and that arseholes like KF are not a reflection of Liverpool FC and its fans.

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #23 on: January 25, 2008, 06:36:16 pm »
thanks for the info phil. very much appreciated as i didn know about 99% of it.

and thanks also to united.  knew about what shankly did, but not the rest.
cheers fellas
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Offline PhilScraton

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #24 on: January 29, 2008, 12:15:10 pm »
John White, United supporter and author of the 'Football Miscellany series' including the Liverpool Footbal Miscellany wrote his appreciation of the above piece and sent the following:


6 February 1958
The Munich Air Disaster
The day after their 3-3 draw with Red Star Belgrade the United team, together with club officials and journalists, leave Belgrade for Manchester, with a brief scheduled stop off at Munich Airport en-route.  At approximately 2.00pm the twin-engine Elizabethan jet, named Lord Burleigh, was ready for take-off with Captain Kenneth Rayment, second in command at the controls.  Captain James Thain had flown the plane out to Belgrade but handed over the wheel to Captain Rayment for the flight home.
 
At 2.31pm the aircraft control tower were informed that 609 Zulu Uniform is rolling.  As the plane rolled down the runway Captain Thain noticed the port pressure gauge fluctuating shortly after full power had been engaged and the engine sounded strange during acceleration.  Captain Rayment abandoned take-off within 40 seconds of the start.  The problem had been that of boost surge whereby the engines over-accelerated because of the very rich mixture of fuel.  Apparently this was quite a common problem with the Elizabethan.  At 2.34pm 609 Zulu Uniform was given permission to attempt a second take-off by air traffic control but once again the plane came to a halt.  After the second aborted attempt to take-off the passengers returned to the Airport lounge.  It had started to snow heavily.
 
Many of the players were of the opinion that they would not be flying home that afternoon because of the bad weather.  Duncan Edwards sent a telegram to his landlady back home in Manchester which read All flights cancelled, flying tomorrow.  Duncan.  After a 15 minute delay everyone boarded the plane again.  A number of the passengers, notably Duncan Edwards, Mark Jones, Tommy Taylor, Eddie Colman and Frank Swift, decided to move to the rear of the plane where they believed it to be a safer place to sit.  Following discussions between Captain Thain, Captain Rayment and William Black [the Airport engineer], 609 Zulu Uniform was on the move again.  Problems ensued once more as the plane sped down the runway, the air speed indicator first reading 117 knots and then dropping to 105 knots.  The jet shot off the runway and went straight through a fence, then across a road before its port wing struck a nearby house.  Part of the jet’s tail and its’ wing were instantly ripped off whilst the house caught fire.  The cockpit hit a tree, the starboard side of the fuselage hit a wooden hut which contained a truck loaded with fuel and tyres.  The truck exploded upon impact.
 
Bill Foulkes speaking after the crash, recalled hearing a bang, then after a few minutes unconsciousness, remembers seeing a hole in the plane directly in front of him.  Foulkes and United keeper, Harry Gregg, performed heroics as they helped team mates and passengers from the smouldering wreckage time after time.  The injured, including a seriously injured Matt Busby, were taken to the nearby Rechts de Isar Hospital.  However, it was not until the next day that the world became aware of the true horror of the crash.  Duncan Edwards’ telegram was delivered at approximately 5.00pm, less than two hours after the crash.
 
Matt Busby lay in an oxygen tent, Bobby Charlton had a bandage wrapped around his head, Jackie Blanchflower had a badly gashed arm, Ray Wood suffered a cut face and concussion, Albert Scanlon’s skull was fractured, Duncan Edwards had serious injuries, Dennis Viollet had  a gashed head together with injuries to his face whilst both Ken Morgans and Johnny Berry lay motionless in bed.  Close by the United players lay the journalist, Frank Taylor.
 
The Busby Babes killed instantly in the crash were: Geoff Bent, Roger Byrne, Eddie Colman, Mark Jones, David Pegg, Tommy Taylor and Liam Whelan.  Walter Crickmere, the Club Secretary, first team trainer Tom Curry and coach, Bert Whalley had all perished in the crash.  Eight of the nine journalists on the flight [ Alf Clarke, Don Davies, George Follows, Tom Jackson, Archie Ledbrooke, Henry Rose, Frank Swift and Eric Thompson ] all died in the crash as did one of the aircrew, the travel agent who arranged the trip, a supporter and two other passengers.  In all, 23 people died in the crash [ Duncan Edwards and Captain Rayment died in hospital from their injuries ] with 16 survivors.  Two of the United players who survived the crash, Jackie Blanchflower and Johnny Berry, never played competitive football again.  The Munich Air Disaster is undoubtedly one of football’s blackest days. 
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Offline Kav

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #25 on: January 30, 2008, 12:31:44 pm »
A great post Phil.

I echo your sentiments and those of others on this thread who the class and respect that Shanks and Busby would be proud of.

I know personally how hard it can be to turn the other cheek when we hear certain things.

If we all do our little bit then there is always hope things can be better.
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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #26 on: February 1, 2008, 05:42:07 pm »
Thank you all for your kind words


There are some other things that happened over Munich that fans of both clubs would do well to remember

After the crash Liverpool were the first ones to ask us "What can we do to help?" In fact you offered us the pick of your reserve team

Bill Shankly, who was at Huddersfield at the time went to Munich to visit Matt Busby in hospital, apart from his immediate family Shanks was the only one to do so

That's why you will never hear us older United fans put you down, we'll laugh and take the Micheal when you lose to us, or accept it when you win, but deep down there is a fond memory and respect for you,


But again thank you - somethings are bigger than rivalry

Nice one United

RIP Busby Babes

RIP 96

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Offline longtimered

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #27 on: February 2, 2008, 06:01:45 am »
I am old enough to remember this tragedy and there are some things that should be above the rivalry/hatred between followers of the two clubs.

Education may help and I wonder whether this article should be posted on the front page or in the main section after this weekend as the anniversary arrives.
 
I'm sure most readers would find the article informative and thought provoking.

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #28 on: February 3, 2008, 09:08:59 pm »
Excellent read, Phil, thanks for posting. My mum went to school with Bill Foulkes's sister (I believe he's from Whiston?) and I remember her telling me about how they were told about the crash in school the next day. The Munich/Hillsborough chant is/and always has been abhorrent, and should not be tolerated in any way. Like another poster alluded to, any Liverpool fan singing songs about Munich may as well be singing about Hillsborough, as it opens the door to any like minded United fan to sing about Hillsborough and vice versa. It should always be remembered the support Liverpool offered to United post-Munich, as well as the support offered by United post-Hillsborough. It should also be remembered that Matt Busby was one of Bill Shankly's closest friends in the game, as well being a Liverpool player of course, and that one of the victims was the uncle of Ronnie Whelan. Much respect for both the victims and survivors of that tragedy 50 years ago.

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #29 on: February 4, 2008, 05:50:39 pm »
Great read PhilS, very informative!!

much appreciated.
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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #30 on: February 4, 2008, 11:24:21 pm »
heard the munichtribute today on the radio. that was very moving aswel, especially harry greg's thoughts
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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #31 on: February 4, 2008, 11:46:31 pm »
excellent read that Phil thanks
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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #32 on: February 5, 2008, 02:59:31 am »
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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #33 on: February 5, 2008, 09:28:10 am »
This excellent article on the Munich tragedy has been moved from the Hillsborough section of Rawk in advance of the 50th anniversary. Our thanks to Phil Scraton, a name many reds will recognise for his work on Hillsborough, for writing such a moving tribute to the victims of 6th February 1958.
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50 years after munich
« Reply #34 on: February 5, 2008, 01:48:11 pm »
On the eve of the 50th anniversery of the munich air disaster i would just like to express my continued sympathy and condolences for the 23 victims and their families. it is one of those occasions were all rivalries must be put to one side and respects must be paid, as many, if not all of the people of manchester have done in the past when we suffered at the hands of needless tragedies.
May the 23 victims continue to rest in peace.

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #35 on: February 5, 2008, 02:39:08 pm »
I wasn't born when the crash happened so obviously it was only when I got a bit older that I found out the details of such a sad waste of life.
A mate of mine was called Tommy Taylor and when I was about 6 he told me he had been given the name of a footballer but he didn't know who he was. I assumed Tommy Taylor had been a red so asked my Dad about him playing for Liverpool, which he explained wasn't the case. My Dad went on to explain about the events in Munich and the people who had died. He told me all about how that team were destined for great things. My Dad was a Liverpool fan by the way. In the days when acknowledgement of another sides ability wasn't seen as some kind of weakness or capitulation. So events in Munich in 1958 have always been in my conscioussness from an early age.

I have spoken to many older fans on occasion about the tragedy, who all echoed the same sentiments about how
tragic the loss of so many lives and the potential of players that had been lost. These were died in the wool Liverpool fans.
My personal dislike of Manchester Utd as a club has never manifested itself with chants about Munich and even at this sad time that dislike will not be lessened by sadness for those that perished in Munich.
The Manchester Utd that suffered this great loss is not the club we see today. It belonged to a bygone age that we will never see again.
However as seen on here , there are older fans who cannot associate themselves with the bile, hatred and ignorance that prevails amongst both the ignorant and the blinkered on both sides.

I visited Anfield in the aftermath of Hillsborough and queued for hours like everyone else.
While the queue snaked along Priory Road a van stopped opposite The Arkles and a woman got out of the drivers seat,4 lads got out of the back. They had Man Utd scarves on and the woman was carrying a bunch of red roses.
They were standing looking at the size of the queue and obviously debating how long it would take to get into Anfield.
They approached the part of the line I was in and asked if we would take the flowers in for them. The woman explained that they had been the day before but after queing for 4 hours had to get to work.

2 of the lads gave me their scarves and asked if I would tie them on The Kop.
The flowers on the pitch were almost to The Anfield Rd goalmouth by this time and nobody else was allowed onto The Kop as it was completely full of scarves etc.

I laid our flowers and scarves together and noticed a few Man Utd scarves already in there.
I remember thinking at the time if things would change because of this.
The answer as we all know is that it has gone worse if anything.

As has already been stated , education is the key.
Have your passion, even have your hatred, but never forget that no loss of innocent lives should ever be celebrated.
There is a distinction between them all and no doubt we can all move freely between the emotions, some just never seem to be able to leave one of them behind.
« Last Edit: February 5, 2008, 09:12:54 pm by shanklyboy »
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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #36 on: February 5, 2008, 08:03:08 pm »
........I laid our flowers and scarves together and noticed a few Man Utd scarves already in there.
I remember thinking at the time if things would change because of this.
The answer as we all know is that it has gone worse if anything.

As has already been stated , education is the key.
Have your passion, even have your hatred, but never forget that no loss of innocent lives should ever be celebrated............
That whole post was boss. Wise words. Nicely put :thumbup

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #37 on: February 5, 2008, 08:33:51 pm »
My dad is as Red as they come (our Red) and he speaks about Munich with genuine sadness.

He described Duncan Edwards as "something else" which is the highest praise there is from him.

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #38 on: February 5, 2008, 09:24:57 pm »
Munich
6 February 1958


It is my view, and I hope it is shared by all who read this, that our commitment to Justice for the 96 should bring compassion for all who died and suffered in Munich 1958; that our common purpose should unite us; and that life and justice is all and football is our shared passion. But that passion should never spill over into hatred, into the vilification of the dead or into exacerbating the suffering of the bereaved and survivors. As I write this my tears are in sadness for those lost and injured and for those whose lives have been cut short by their pain. They are in anger towards those from both cities who have dared taunt the memory of the dead and desecrate the experiences of the bereaved and survivors.

Justice for Munich; Justice for Hillsborough; and remembering those who died:


That's a great paragraph and one I'd love to show those who sing Munich songs anywhere. Amen to that Phil.
Yep.

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #39 on: February 6, 2008, 12:20:32 am »
Rest in Peace
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