Author Topic: Rafa  (Read 94872 times)

Offline Bamba

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Rafa
« on: November 2, 2010, 11:30:50 am »
I post this overview on Rafa with great reluctance. He gave me the greatest night of my night as a Liverpool fan - and I was there against St.Etienne, against Bruges twice, in the Parc des Princes… each and every legendary game from 1975 onwards I was there, so obviously Istanbul, and Chelsea and Juventus 2005 were momentous to earn such a unique and special place in my heart. But I feel that, like Houllier before him, the job devoured Rafa and turned a decent, principled man into a paranoid, political beast. And I think we’re seeing the evidence of that right now. Out of 30-odd pages of devotional (maybe delusional) love for Benitez, only a handful have picked up on the basic fact that if Rafa loved this club so much he wouldn’t be trying to undermine us so publicly, so often.

When Rafa arrived in 2004 I loved him on first sight - and sound. Mourinho (who had petitioned for the Liverpool job) came in at Chelsea and immediately set about pulling Ranieri to bits. In his first press conference Mourinho stated that Ranieri deserved to be sacked. He told the world he was The Special One. He celebrated an equaliser against us by sprinting the length of the touchline, signalling Liverpool’s supporters to be quiet. He was an embarrassing tit. Meanwhile, Rafa got on with the job. Michael Owen left the club days before the transfer window was due to close. We suffered horrific bad luck with injuries - Carragher and Cisse both went down with fractures in the same game. Steven Gerrard was out of action for much of the first part of the season. Xabi Alonso had his ankle broken by Frank Lampard on New Year’s Day. At no stage could Benitez field his strongest team. At no stage did he complain about bad luck, nor did he complain about having no money to spend. He got us to Istanbul with a raggle-taggle army of kids, reserves and no-hopers. We rightly celebrate Gerrard, Alonso and Garcia for their inspirational roles in bringing the European Cup to Anfield for good, but let’s not forget that we won crucial games through the efforts of Scott Carson, David Raven, Neil Mellor, Djimi Traore, Igor Biscan and Antonio Nunez. Istanbul is without any shadow of doubt the greatest night, the greatest event and the greatest achievement I’ve witnessed with this team of ours - and for that I revere Rafael Benitez. Not for any supreme tactical nous (everyone goes on about Didi Hamann’s introduction changing the game. Maybe. But for me, it was Harry Kewell’s injury. Milan had ancient, lethargic full backs and we didn’t run at them once until Vladi Smicer came on. For me, it was his willingness to run at them and take them on that planted the first seeds of doubt in Milan’s geriatric defence). More than anything I revere Benitez for winning that cup with humility and dignity. For winning it through guts and passion. For winning it against all odds. For winning it the Shankly way; the Liverpool way.

Two years on, and the day after a European Cup final we should have won in Athens, Rafa was warning the new owners that we had to be fast out of the starting blocks to sign the new players he’d earmarked. Tom Hicks didn’t take kindly to being told how to operate by a mere employee. His response was to start sounding out Jurgen Klinsmann. He told Rafa to concentrate on coaching the team. And he hoped that, in a season where we were already out of the title race by October and had to win our last three CL group games to qualify for the knock-outs that Rafa would drop points against Porto or Marseille and give him good reason to sack him.

In the run up to the Porto game I sent out an email to every Liverpool fan I knew, asking them to send it on to every Liverpool fan they knew. The title of the email was S.O.S - Save Our Soul and it urged everyone to meet outside The Sandon and march to the ground in support of Benitez. People in the Main Stand lounges said you could hear the march getting louder and louder as we got nearer to the ground. One friend who was a shareholder back then said Foster Gillett went white when someone told him the fans were scaling the walls; she also said that he spent half time on the phone, grinning and joking - presumably because, at 1-1, we were heading out of the competition.

Looking back, I wonder if that march was Rafa’s “God” moment? Houllier’s came after his heart surgery when he appeared on the touchline during that crucial group game against Rome; this frail little man in a red scarf who had been close to death and who wasn’t supposed to put himself under any stress or strain was suddenly there, gesticulating wildly at a point where Roma were starting to get back into the game. The response of the crowd - a spontaneous, deafening, exultant roar - drove the team over the finishing line. Gerard thought he was immortal. We fans convinced him he was The Second Coming. To my mind, Houllier became ever more gnomic and bizarre in his actions and pronouncements from that point on and has only just regained his marbles in recent years. The Liverpool job does that to you.

I think the job drove Rafa potty, too. Next up, after we’d made him flameproof in the aftermath of Klinnsman and the Porto game, came Inter Milan. We beat them 2-0 at home. Xabi Alonso approached Benitez in the lead-up to the return leg and asked if he could be excused from travelling. His wife was due to give birth to their first child. (In recounting this and other episodes, you can take it or leave it as suits your point of view. All I’d say is take it with an open mind. I have a good set of contacts in and out of the club, but ultimately I make my own mind up. Given the variety of people who have told me the Alonso story, I think there has to be something in it). Benitez took this as evidence of an individual putting his own selfish needs ahead of the needs of the team. He decided that Alonso was weak and uncommitted, and set about the process of trying to sell him to Juventus and replace him with Gareth Barry. I’m not so sure that the Rafa of 2004-2006 would have treated such a key player (or any player) with such ruthlessness. I think Rafa began to think of himself as a Messiah - and we encouraged that mentality in him - to the extent he developed a siege mentality that clouded his judgement.

Rafa tried and failed to sell Alonso and sign Barry in the summer of 2008. He also tried to distance himself from the signing of Robbie Keane by alleging that he didn’t want Keane if he didn’t have Barry, too - both players were integral to his master plan. There are two things to say about this. One is that I have seen copies of the faxes and letters surrounding the Keane deal and there is nothing to suggest there were any conditions laid down by Rafa in terms of our completing the signing of Keane; and certainly nothing about signing Barry first before moving onto Keane. Secondly, if signing Barry was so key to Rafa’s plan, why did he splash £7 million on an overweight and critically limited left-back in Andrea Dossena as his first signing of the summer? Why, when we were chiselling Aston Villa over a million or two for Barry, did we lay out £8 million on Albert Riera? And, for the record, would any of you take Barry over Alonso today? It’s my opinion - and it is only an opinion - that Rafa had already lost his grip as a result of the immortal status we accorded him, and with it went our chances of winning Number 19.

Let’s talk about that season - 2008-09 - the season we nearly we nearly won it. Instead of Rafa repeatedly reminding us that we won a record number of points that season, let’s concentrate on the fact that we failed to overhaul an uninspired Man United team who had to spend December on the other side of the world and play catch-up when they got back. They gave us a head start and we bottled it. Time and again Rafa sent out teams to “control the game” against the type of opponents that Man.U tend to smash to pieces by virtue of their attacking football. Time and time again we had to watch ugly, containing football - no verve, no tempo…it was boring, predictable and went against the traditions of bold attacking play that is supposed to be embodied in The Liverpool Way. We should have been out of sight by the time United played Chelsea on January 11th 2009, but we continued playing two holding midfielders at home to West Ham and Fulham (two 0-0s), and only started attacking Stoke in the last ten minutes (another 0-0). We took the lead against Everton and Wigan, dropped back twenty yards and invited them on to us and inevitably handed back the initiative and the points. And somehow we managed to go to Middlesbrough, a team who had beaten nobody all season, and lose. From being out on our own with our destiny ours to shape, we had blown it by the end of February - and the manager has to take a lot of the blame for that. The final irony is that the final nails were hammered into our hopes by Andrei Arshavin - a player we could have had for £10 million and who even Rafa’s most fervent loyalists would surely have preferred to Rieira?

Summer 09 and he was still intent on driving Alonso out. Allowing for the fact that a parting was inevitable and probably, by then, best for all concerned, Rafa was placed in a fantastic bargaining position when Real Madrid announced that there was only one Xabi Alonso and they simply had to have him. How did Rafa respond? Did he say - great; we’ll have Robben, Sneijder, Van der Vaart and Higuain then, thanks? Did he say - that’ll be £40 million. Cash? No. He took £30 million for an irreplaceable talent, and he replaced him with Alberto Aquilani. I’m very well aware that the popular wisdom among our support is that Rafa was not given the £30 million to re-invest, but fuckinell…why sell Alonso, in that case? And if he really did have to go, why bring in a crock? Even Scott Parker would have had more impact than Aquilani.

I’m sorry, but by autumn 09 Rafa had completely lost it, for me. Anyone who was there at home against Lyon could see that Kelly was starting to suffer. It looked like cramp. It turned out to be worse. But we were 1-0 up and, after a brilliant first half, Kelly was getting skinned repeatedly in the first 15 minutes of the second period. Everyone was shouting for Kelly to be taken off, but Rafa knew better. He waited until Lyon equalised - as a result of their man getting behind Kelly yet again and pulling back a peach of a ball for a tap-in - before he pulled the injured kid off. Lyon away we all know about. 4 points that would have seen us qualify, but who cares when you have God as your manager.

Like I say, I loved Benitez as powerfully as many of you still love him now. I’ve gone easy on him in this attempt at a rational overview. But my view - and it doesn’t come easy, knocking anyone who has played a part in our history - is that he is the opposite of what many of you take him to be. Rafa used to say of Mourinho “Jose likes to talk.” If Rafa was half the legend you think he is, he’d keep his mouth shut.
« Last Edit: November 2, 2010, 11:43:41 am by Veinticinco de Mayo »

Offline Veinticinco de Mayo

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #1 on: November 2, 2010, 11:44:54 am »
I think this post deserves it's own thread rather than becoming lost in thirty-odd pages of squabbling over priests and mountains of sugar. 
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Re: Rafa
« Reply #2 on: November 2, 2010, 11:47:10 am »
Yes, yes, yes and yes. A superb post.

(and good decision VdM)
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Offline hedger

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #3 on: November 2, 2010, 11:47:22 am »
like I already said - a great post. it is factual and gives an honest assessment of rafas reign

Offline Bangin Them In

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #4 on: November 2, 2010, 11:50:48 am »
Yes this is the truth

As far as Rafa in isolation is concerned, he is making himself smaller and smaller by weighing in here, thought he was better than all this drivel and counter drivel.

Roy is not the man, something we do all know, but this is classless.
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Offline AndrewLFC_1971

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #5 on: November 2, 2010, 11:51:25 am »
I still don't think we should have binned Rafa after one bad season, everyone knows what happened after the americans took over, with nesv at the helm and a fresh start under new owners i believe he'd have suceeded.

Offline Big_Red

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #6 on: November 2, 2010, 11:52:43 am »
Liverpool way or not Rafa has continiously been brought into this by Roy and press. If Roy hadn't brought Rafa into this then there would've been no need for Rfa to defend himself.
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Re: Rafa
« Reply #7 on: November 2, 2010, 11:52:53 am »
It's just sad now, isn't it? Sad when you consider the deterioration in judgement - of past manager, to the present manager, to the support.

Offline Veinticinco de Mayo

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #8 on: November 2, 2010, 11:54:00 am »
Not when you intend to eventually move it to Opinion El C... :wave

My personal take is that it would have been better for the club had Rafa been given a chance under the new owners and under new terms of reference, where he was also politely told to concentrate on coaching the side, but at the same time was given all the backing he needed in order to do that.  However I can recognise that even though I disagree with the conclusion this is still an excellent espousal of Bamba's position and arguing about what would have happened this season and going forward under Rafa is pointless. 
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Offline sinnermichael

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #9 on: November 2, 2010, 11:54:53 am »
excellent post

Offline carotene

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #10 on: November 2, 2010, 11:55:07 am »
Agree with all of that- we must not get mixed up with wanting Roy to leave with wanting Rafa back. Roy was mad to come and we were mad to take him. Rafa lost the plot completely and never injected pace or guile into his teams.

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #11 on: November 2, 2010, 11:55:57 am »
So you are saying it was right to sack Rafa because he sold Alonso and had a bad 2nd half of a season last year. I also think Alonso wanted to go to RM whatever Rafa did if I remember rightly even when he joined us Alonso said he wanted to play for RM almost like we were 2nd choice.

And I think it's more about Hodgson shutting his mouth than Rafa.
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Offline kacangpool

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #12 on: November 2, 2010, 11:56:25 am »
very revealing post, especially from someone who cared for the man.

but i'd still take rafa back in a heartbeat.

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #13 on: November 2, 2010, 11:56:26 am »
Again, it's one bad season out of five, the rest of which were great, that people pull him up for. Yes, he made mistakes in the other seasons, but why do we have to constantly analyse each individual mistake. Look at the bigger picture, he made us very fucking good again (maybe a league title short of great).
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Offline Old Brian

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #14 on: November 2, 2010, 11:56:42 am »
Brilliant OP exactly what I have been trying to say but unable to do it so eloquently - well done

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #15 on: November 2, 2010, 11:57:01 am »
Like I say, I loved Benitez as powerfully as many of you still love him now. I’ve gone easy on him in this attempt at a rational overview. But my view - and it doesn’t come easy, knocking anyone who has played a part in our history - is that he is the opposite of what many of you take him to be. Rafa used to say of Mourinho “Jose likes to talk.” If Rafa was half the legend you think he is, he’d keep his mouth shut.

This last bit doesn't sit right with me.  Rafa is being brought up week in week out over here, his wife and kids live here, he's being blamed for everything that's wrong with this club.  He has a right to defend his name and his actions.  If Mr Hodgson would stop blaming Rafa and bringing his name up every five minutes then maybe Rafa would keep his mouth shut.  For Christ sake he starts this whole quote off by saying he doesn't want to talk about Liverpool FC.

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Offline Festy

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #16 on: November 2, 2010, 11:57:11 am »
Yes this is the truth

As far as Rafa in isolation is concerned, he is making himself smaller and smaller by weighing in here, thought he was better than all this drivel and counter drivel.

Roy is not the man, something we do all know, but this is classless.

Since when defending yourself from blatant lies and accusation deemed as 'classless' ?  ::)

Good op but I cann't for once agree with the minority that Rafa is wrong in defending himself.


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Re: Rafa
« Reply #17 on: November 2, 2010, 11:57:17 am »
I'll reply here then....

I find the post full of things to suit certain arguments myself... mostly based on the Alonso drama conveniently leaving out pay issues, injury issues and perhaps 2 good seasons out of 4 for the player.. perhaps if he wasn't given a public slap by Benitez it would of just been one season... and then the argument to suit Arshavin..... nicely forgetting the chronic defending on the night...  so we could of had Asrhavin but didn't get him ... or could say the same for many other players Rafa wanted but didn't get ie milner, vidic, silva etc etc...
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Offline DG

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #18 on: November 2, 2010, 11:58:04 am »
Brilliant post.

Offline Veinticinco de Mayo

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #19 on: November 2, 2010, 11:58:13 am »
Brilliant OP exactly what I have been trying to say but unable to do it so eloquently - well done
And there was me thinking that what you had been trying to say was that this was a Rafa website and we should all go and support Inter Milan...
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Re: Rafa
« Reply #20 on: November 2, 2010, 11:59:58 am »
Good post, apart from all the love Rafa has and had we still played some boring crap to watch football under him, i dont think there is a chance in hell of him coming back, whilst Purslow is on the board in whatever capacity he will tell NESV not to go back to him, i dont think we should go back to him for all the same reasons that Kenny is a bad idea, he has a part in our history why cloud that with a second spell that could end up in tears
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Offline Raul!

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #21 on: November 2, 2010, 12:00:12 pm »
Not when you intend to eventually move it to Opinion El C... :wave

My personal take is that it would have been better for the club had Rafa been given a chance under the new owners and under new terms of reference, where he was also politely told to concentrate on coaching the side, but at the same time was given all the backing he needed in order to do that.  However I can recognise that even though I disagree with the conclusion this is still an excellent espousal of Bamba's position and arguing about what would have happened this season and going forward under Rafa is pointless. 
Thanks for saying that I believe as well.

Every manager will make some decisions that people will not agree with but with due respect to Bamba and his sources in the club, I think there is a little too much amateur psychology in it for me to accept it as written.  Alonso was his biggest mistake and that part I agree with but there is too much else we achieved under him for me to be able to give a negative slant to the entirety of his tenure.  And that is before mentioning his role in standing up to the owners.  Call the latter his belief in his godliness if you like but you can just as easily see it as standing up for what the fans believed in as well.
« Last Edit: November 2, 2010, 12:01:59 pm by Raul. »

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #22 on: November 2, 2010, 12:00:16 pm »
A smashing read there, Bamba. Great post. While I don’t agree with the general sentiment, your argument is a very strong one and certainly has me thinking. I love Benitez for what he did here and it will take a lot more than a few interfering remarks from him to make me change that, but you do present your opinion in a very considered and balanced way, which is why I'm sure even the most pro Rafa Reds will respect every word.

Again, a great read
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Offline red_til_i_die

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #23 on: November 2, 2010, 12:00:26 pm »
I may be reading what you've written wrong but i disagree that Rafa should keep his mouth shut.

Why should Hodgson be allowed to slate Rafa and the work he did without Rafa being allowed his say?

If what Rafa is saying is true about Kenny etc then why should Hodgson be allowed to lie or say whatever the fuck he wants about a man who is a legend in many peoples eyes and who should also still be here just because he's the liverpool manager.

Hodgson for me is liverpool manager in name but not in nature or stature.

Rafa loves (not loved) this club and understood what it meant to the city and the fans. He defended this club whenever he needed to or had someone attack it.
When Rafa came he learnt about the clubs history, about Shankly and i very very much doubt Roy has spent a minute looking into what makes this club what it is.
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Offline montysmum

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #24 on: November 2, 2010, 12:00:28 pm »
A great post and probably sums up what a lot of us think.  I admre and respect Rafa but at the same time can see flaws and weaknesses in his make-up that mean I would not like to see him return to the club.  I dont think it would be right for him or us.

It is nice to see a well balanced post about his tenure with us and not one that goes down the 'love him or hate him' route.

However, if your post was instigated because of the latest so called 'rant' then I would take issue with it.  I dont think there was anyway Rafa could be expected not to defend himself against what was a slur on his character basically (accused of treating a club legend with disrespect).

All we can hope is that Hodgson stops using Rafa and others to bolster his own position, because without his le in the fiirst place, none of this would have happened.

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #25 on: November 2, 2010, 12:01:18 pm »
Excellent post Bamba. I love Rafa to bits but the cult of personality that surrounds him is sometimes a bit much. He's a brilliant manager (streets ahead of Hodgson obviously) but he has his flaws, like the vast majority of human beings.

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #26 on: November 2, 2010, 12:01:20 pm »
Spot on mate, exactly how I feel, I too still feel he had to go as he was just losing it.

BTW, you need to address some issues during the takeover because there is a lot of evidence in terms of actual events, you were Haunds handyman and so on....

Offline Dr Abismo

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #27 on: November 2, 2010, 12:01:47 pm »
... One is that I have seen copies of the faxes and letters surrounding the Keane deal and there is nothing to suggest there were any conditions laid down by Rafa in terms of our completing the signing of Keane; and certainly nothing about signing Barry first before moving onto Keane.


You've obviously got priveleged access to stuff there. But what's written in faxes and letters isn't everything. Who knows what understandings were reached and agreed or asked for, in conversations, where all the initial discussions would have taken place? There seems little reason to doubt that Rafa wanted Barry as a priority over Keane, and that irrespective of the Dossena deal (we did need a left back, and he was an Italian international), the £20m given for Keane would have covered what Villa wanted for Barry with a cuople of million to spare. So basically, I think you're wrong about that.

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #28 on: November 2, 2010, 12:02:01 pm »
Well, if you read past Alonso interviews, he was often linked about Real Madrid, he was often quoted as saying that Real Madrid is his preffered club, thats why for example Real Sociedad fans view him as a traitor because in their minds he left for Liverpool to shine and then return to Real Madrid eventually.

If Alonso had any hard feelings toward Rafa, he won't have come to support him and the lads last Decemeber against Arsenal, 24 hours after Real Madrid had a match at the league, and as for his replacement, Aquilani, he was supposed to be fit in four weeks and thats what Roma told us and thats what our doctors believed after the medical test, this isn't Rafa's fault that we had not so good physios.

Aquilani is now quality at Juve, playing every game in a tough league and is shining there very well, he was one for the future and we bottled that.
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Re: Rafa
« Reply #29 on: November 2, 2010, 12:02:28 pm »
I find it very hard to be critical of Rafa for speaking out in the first place, or what he's said.   Certainly don't think it's fair to say he's undermining the club with his comments.

The fact is he's responding to comments made about him, whilst in the country for a high profile match with plenty of media attention.

I feel he's got unfinished business here and would welcome him back anytime, and also feel it's important never to overlook his role in opening people's eyes to the American's and the battles he fought off the pitch, something which ultimately cost him his job.
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In the corridors and changing rooms of Anfield I met many people - the great, the talented, the legendary.  I know that I only met one genius.  He was a small, smiling man with a neatly clipped beard.  His name was Rafael Benitez.

Offline AlphaDelta

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #30 on: November 2, 2010, 12:02:30 pm »
What an outstanding post, and in all honesty the best I have read on here in a long while!
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Offline annealicia

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #31 on: November 2, 2010, 12:03:02 pm »
Well done Bamba for a great post.  I agree with everything that has been said.

Offline Mr Kipling

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #32 on: November 2, 2010, 12:03:25 pm »

Summer 09 and he was still intent on driving Alonso out.


Eh?


How did Rafa respond? Did he say - great; we’ll have Robben, Sneijder, Van der Vaart and Higuain then, thanks?


How do you know he didn't and just got turned down?


 Did he say - that’ll be £40 million. Cash? No. He took £30 million for an irreplaceable talent


Alonso wanted to leave because of what happened the summer before (which kicked Alonso up the arse to give us his best season after 18 months or poor form and injury, which are the reasons why Rafa was looking to move him on) , so if he hadn't of accepted what they offered, we'd of been left with a player who wouldn't of been happy, hence his form would of dropped leading tio him leaving for arounf half that price in the next window.


 And if he really did have to go, why bring in a crock? Even Scott Parker would have had more impact than Aquilani.


Like Rafa could of predict his injury record for the season ahead.


If Rafa was half the legend you think he is, he’d keep his mouth shut.


He knew if he'd of stayed quiet on the Roy issue, the press would of took that as an admission of guilt. Rafa set the record straight so where's the problem?

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #33 on: November 2, 2010, 12:03:58 pm »
And for heaven's sake, believing he was the right man for the job is not the same as saying that he should be back.  He shouldn't. At leas not now.  We need a completely fresh start from all perspectives.

Offline Ice Red

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #34 on: November 2, 2010, 12:04:16 pm »
Rafa used to say of Mourinho “Jose likes to talk.” If Rafa was half the legend you think he is, he’d keep his mouth shut.

And let the new manager constantly talking shite about him? Why wouldn't he respond?

He wouldn't need to be talking about Liverpool if our current manager would shut the fuck up for once.

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #35 on: November 2, 2010, 12:04:16 pm »
Yes this is the truth

As far as Rafa in isolation is concerned, he is making himself smaller and smaller by weighing in here, thought he was better than all this drivel and counter drivel.

Roy is not the man, something we do all know, but this is classless.

How do you know? It´s one persons opinion and one persons interpretation of what happened.
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Offline pistolpete

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #36 on: November 2, 2010, 12:04:24 pm »
I think its a well-articulated post but its also full of subjectivisms.

Just a few I can pick out are:

Alonso - who can claim he was forced out? Rafa wanted to sell him, no doubt but that was after Alonso had 2 poor seasons by his high standards. Who knows if Alonso, a known family man, didnt want to return to Spain along with Arbeloa?

The season we finished 2nd....was also the season that Torres and Gerrard played a total of 14 league games together. Bamba himself says that Utd smash teams to pieces and criticises Rafa for not doing the same. Is this the same Utd that had the attacking qualities of Rooney and Ronaldo playing however many games together yet still had to rely on a young rookie to score a couple of last minute winners for them (turning 1 point into 3)?

Failing to sign Schnieder/Higuain/Robben/Arshavin - how do you know they would have come to Liverpool? Just because they didnt sign you cant say its megalomaniac Rafa;s fault?

Finally the recital of one game where Rafa didnt substitute an injury early enough ("when it looked like cramp") is incredibly selective. Ok, it may have been a mistake but hindsight is a wonderful thing. Rafa, with his track record, has made more calls in real time that have led to successes. You cant use one dodgy example to claim that his a megalomaniac.

Just my thoughts like.
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Re: Rafa
« Reply #37 on: November 2, 2010, 12:05:45 pm »
When you say you saw letters about the Keane deal between who? The 2 clubs? If so, why would they have mentioned the Barry deal to them?

I would say he signed Dossena who at the time had made it into the Italian national team was on paper a good decision. Who was to play on the left if we hadn't have signed Riera? To say we could have got Arshavin is based on what exactly? His price? His desire to join us? Same goes for when Real Madrid bought Alonso what's to say Robben would have come to us or any of the other players that you PRESUME would have?

It's the last bit that really riles me. He doesn't START by mentioning Liverpool, he didn't say fuck whilst we lost to Blackpool at home or Northampton so how he can be singled out for standing up for himself is shocking. Fucking bloke is only person I've seen that stood up for  our club while Ferguson and his cronies shat upon him and he got ridiculed for that.

Oh and for the season we finished second, we OVERACHIEVED. Chelsea, Arsenal were the ones that failed mate.

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #38 on: November 2, 2010, 12:06:04 pm »
And there was me thinking that what you had been trying to say was that this was a Rafa website and we should all go and support Inter Milan...

And I stand by that. OUR concern now should be the future not the past.

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Re: Rafa
« Reply #39 on: November 2, 2010, 12:06:06 pm »
Some interesting points raised. Some I have an issue with would be that people forget how utterly frustrating and to be honest, shite, Xabi was the season before he left. And i feel that in fact it could be argued that Rafa's persuit of a replacement/rival for his place in the team brought the best out of Alonso, he had to prove himself again and was hungry, yes in hindsight it drove a wedge between the two, but Alonso went on to have the best season that he had here and was much improved on the last.

Also the point you make about the Alonso deal seems pretty mute to me. You seem to be arguing that Rafa should have demanded more from the deal but i think its become perfectly obvious that Rafa was pretty far removed from the negotiating process. As most managers would be. It should't fall on Rafa's head that we didn't get as good a deal as we could've. (we still recieved the highest fee in our history and made a large profit on the player) this is much more down to the suits behind the scenes.

Thirdly your point on Aquilani, now im careful to elevate Alberto to a lofty position that he shouldn't be in simply because he's strung together a few impressive performances in Italy as some seem to be doing. But you are very dismissive of him and the decision to sign him. IMO Alberto once he was fit showed that he could have been a VERY useful player for Liverpool. He made a number of assists, scored goals, looked positive and a real player...he continues to do so in Italy. Rafa saw this in him. I've said before that i think Rafa's management of Aquilani was very unselfish. He was being criticised for holding him back and was facing criticism for signing an expensive 'flop'. It would've been very easy to cave and throw him in before he was ready. Instead Rafa held him back, and when he was satisfied that he was past his problems he introduced him, and again IMO was completely vindicated for signing him. Both Alberto and now Juve (instead of us) are now reaping the rewards.

Those are just some of the issues i felt i had to pick you up on Bamba.