Author Topic: Round Table: Watford 3 Liverpool 0  (Read 19661 times)

Offline Gnurglan

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Re: Round Table: Watford 3 Liverpool 0
« Reply #40 on: December 22, 2015, 09:13:11 am »
I'd argue that we don't have a squad of poor players. We have a squad of above average players and with each passing week, I'm starting to think more and more that those results were more of a reflection of how poor those teams were when and since we have played them, rather than how good we are or have the potential to be. They papered over the evident cracks.


Agree about the squad. We don't need a whole new side of superstars, but we need to add two or three.

I think we should look at the City, Chelsea and Southampton games and realise that's our top level. It's sound to accept how bad we were vs Watford, but it's also wise to accept that we can be really good when things click. It's about three games, not a single one, so it should mean something.

Watford impressed me. I think Sanchez Flores has a big part in that. They get a lot from their players. They are hard to beat. It was frustrating to see how easily they countered our threats. They knew how to beat us and they're not the only ones. If we can't get our act together, we'll see more of the same throughout the season.

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Offline edeyj

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Re: Round Table: Watford 3 Liverpool 0
« Reply #41 on: December 22, 2015, 09:25:32 am »
Klopp put his finger on it when he said that we reacted poorly to the first half goals. I believe that's everything to do with the mentality of the players. I think we need a couple of leaders - a centre half and a midfielder who set the tone for the rest. 

The rest of the squad is decent. Not excellent. That needs to be addressed over time and Klopp has a track record of doing that. In the short term I think Klopp needs to review his no January business stance if the right players are available.

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Re: Round Table: Watford 3 Liverpool 0
« Reply #42 on: December 22, 2015, 09:38:36 am »
What are people's thoughts on Lucas dropping in as a CB when we had Toure on the bench,  not on his performance per se,  but more on the rationale behind the decision?  WHy was Toure not brought on,  or Can dropped in as he's had loads of experience there.

FWIW I though Lucas did pretty well for his first ever game there as it's a tough position to get right positionally.  He was pretty strong against Ighalo for most of the half.  and did one Mascheranoesque sliding block!

Not something I'm massively keen to see again,  but I am interested to get the reasoning behind it!
Been waiting for that to happen to be honest. Lucas reads the game extremely well and is good in the air, it seems a more logical choice than Can, who really is a CM. Lucas isn't the tallest, but he's bigger than Mascherano, who also ended up defense.

Think is fairly common in the Bundesliga to see players in DM one day and CB the next.
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Offline mrantarctica

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Re: Round Table: Watford 3 Liverpool 0
« Reply #43 on: December 22, 2015, 09:57:50 am »
Klopp put his finger on it when he said that we reacted poorly to the first half goals. I believe that's everything to do with the mentality of the players. I think we need a couple of leaders - a centre half and a midfielder who set the tone for the rest. 

The rest of the squad is decent. Not excellent. That needs to be addressed over time and Klopp has a track record of doing that. In the short term I think Klopp needs to review his no January business stance if the right players are available.

The 'right players' being available isn't easy to guarantee, and I'm not sure this everlasting quest of looking for great deals in the transfer market is going to get us anywhere. Sure, I agree that if there was the option to bring in world class players then go for it, but in the absence of that I can't see that bringing in other untried untested players will necessarily be any better than what we already have.

We should be able to get more out of the players we have. They are all good enough to play better than they have been. When we had a bit of consistency in selection then we started to produce results. Unfortunately, because of injuries, the outlook of our team changes from week to week. Our poor form of late has coincided with injuries to our main 3 CBs, switching our CM's from game to game and not being clear what our strike force is going to look like. It can't be easy for players to be adapting to how Sturridge or Benteke or Origi might play in the game, to then find that none of them are on the pitch and our attack force is Coutinho, Firmino and Lallana instead. But then the players behind them will obviously struggle adapting to that when the next week it is Origi, Benteke and Ibe that are on.

The real rebuilding will happen at the close of the season where we can well and truly move on some lesser players and passengers, and bring in some fresh faces and get a really decent preseason with the entire squad and develop a cohesive game plan.

Offline leivapool

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Re: Round Table: Watford 3 Liverpool 0
« Reply #44 on: December 22, 2015, 10:10:15 am »
Been waiting for that to happen to be honest. Lucas reads the game extremely well and is good in the air, it seems a more logical choice than Can, who really is a CM. Lucas isn't the tallest, but he's bigger than Mascherano, who also ended up defense.

Think is fairly common in the Bundesliga to see players in DM one day and CB the next.

Yeah,  I'm not adverse to it,  but there was one shot on the TV where Lucas was having a quick chat to Sakho having been moved there just before half time and you could see Lucas raise his eyebrow as if he was a little perplexed by the decision.  Given time I think he could grow into the role and with his usually reliable distribution he might add something at the back,  who knows!
Rossiter absolutely bossed it tonight. Really believe he'll end up playing more games this season than Lucas.


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Offline DPB RED

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Re: Round Table: Watford 3 Liverpool 0
« Reply #45 on: December 22, 2015, 10:16:06 am »
The important aspect of any game but especially when you play away is not to concede the first goal and especially an early goal. This gives the home team the emphasis and creates a intimidating atmosphere which can effect the confidence of the away team. The gifted early goal finished the game for us as you could see any confidence we may have had dissapear straight away. The same thing happened to us away to West Ham last season when we conceded early. The same thing happened at Southampton in the cup and for the first 20 minutes we looked really shaky but fortuantly didn't concede the 2nd goal. The same thing happened at Chelsea again but again didn't concede the 2nd goal.
We have to keep our concentration early on and not allow our opponents to execute there game plan.
I can't remember a season where we have allowed the opposition to score first or have conceeded soft equalisers.
The mentality of the team seems weak and shows how much work Klopp has to build confidence back into this squad.
Having a low in confidence has been one of the main factors why we have been so inconsistant over the past 18 months.
The Watford match showed the mental weekness in the current squad is a major problem and needs addressing, whether this is with this current crop of players or with a total change of personnel.

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Re: Round Table: Watford 3 Liverpool 0
« Reply #46 on: December 22, 2015, 10:21:04 am »
classless fucks

Many thanks for providing me with an excellent new pejorative for some of the (diminishing) band of whoppers on here. ;D

Offline ahfolk79

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Re: Round Table: Watford 3 Liverpool 0
« Reply #47 on: December 22, 2015, 10:23:16 am »
Klopp put his finger on it when he said that we reacted poorly to the first half goals. I believe that's everything to do with the mentality of the players. I think we need a couple of leaders - a centre half and a midfielder who set the tone for the rest. 


We did react poorly, especially to the first goal, but I suspect that having a dodgy keeper is undermining the confidence of the whole team. A sort of “here we go again, whatever we achieve will be f*cked up at the back anyway” mentality. It’s getting to the stage that the other team winning a corner is akin to a penalty being awarded against us.

Jurgen obviously knows what he's doing and no doubt he’ll come up with a solution about how to play against these sorts of teams. I wonder if it might be an idea to sit back and invite them onto us. Quite what happens when you have two teams set up to do that, I don’t know, other than the certainty that it’ll be an awful game.

As ever, we only appreciate how decent some players are when they’re missing – Milner and Lovren. It’s quite remarkable to say, but we actually missed Lovren. I’m hoping that Sakho’s display was down to lack of match fitness.
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Offline fowlermagic

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Re: Round Table: Watford 3 Liverpool 0
« Reply #48 on: December 22, 2015, 10:27:52 am »
Just the fact that Watford looked a lot quicker to the second ball is enough to say this is not good enough. I don't think many of us really expected a below par Liverpool to roll anyone over right now as the average result for us these days is a very hard earned point (s) with the occasional amazing performance thrown in, ie a great win or my god what was that? Sunday was one of those "what was that?".  I guess even the great teams of old got rolled over once in a blue moon as I have a feeling Souness & Co played the odd game with a wee hangover but since 13/14 we have seen some very blurry results. Way too many as some of the players will soon get the Klopp and sent on their merry way.

Obviously the fringe players move on as that is the way of the game but to right these ship on an even keel Klopp will have to tinker with the engine of the team. That will require 2 or 3 key players to be added to the side by next summer as results like this cannot go on next season as patience will be a wee short if Watford & the likes run over us in the 16/17 season. Awful to even hint that but these days 5 Year Plans are getting squeezed into three year projects and if progression is not seen by Year 2 then the magnifying glass comes out. For that reason alone Klopp will have to judge the present squad by season's end and if the players that continue to fall short and do so until May then Klopp needs to say Good Luck lads as I need to get this club on track asap.
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Re: Round Table: Watford 3 Liverpool 0
« Reply #49 on: December 22, 2015, 10:28:43 am »
Yeah,  I'm not adverse to it,  but there was one shot on the TV where Lucas was having a quick chat to Sakho having been moved there just before half time and you could see Lucas raise his eyebrow as if he was a little perplexed by the decision.  Given time I think he could grow into the role and with his usually reliable distribution he might add something at the back,  who knows!
He probably thought he's just filling in until half-time.
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Re: Round Table: Watford 3 Liverpool 0
« Reply #50 on: December 22, 2015, 10:53:42 am »
I don't think many people didn't acknowledge that we had another rebuilding job on our hands mate. Brendan was spot on about it, and it's the reason he went.

I don't think many people acknowledge how easy this league is to do well in. A team that was fighting relegation last season are at the top of the league, and we're here still talking about 'rebuilding'. We don't need to rebuild the squad, and i know Rodgers loved to use that phrase about 'transition' and all that, partly because he knew us as fans our pretty on the balance pretty fair. But this is the same Rodgers who challenged for the league in his 2nd season, by his last season the phrases building and transition, simply became excuses, it takes us years upon on end to rebuild, yet you get teams who are perennial relegation candidates and straight from the Championship getting it right within a few months? The only rebuilding we should be doing is at academy level, the squad doesn't need rebuilding it needs a little trim here and there.

Offline 007.lankyguy

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Re: Round Table: Watford 3 Liverpool 0
« Reply #51 on: December 22, 2015, 11:59:04 am »
For me, the main thing that stood out was our lack of domination in midfield. You can discuss defensive errors, you can discuss lack of penetration but when there's absolutely nothing through midfield, you suffer at both ends and this is something that has been a weak point for years. We don't have an 'orchestrator' in the squad - I've banged on about it for a while but Coutinho isn't a deep orchestrator, Lucas obviously isn't, Henderson isn't, Milner certainly isn't, Allen isn't, Can's the closest but he definitely isn't either. It's one of the serious errors I felt Rodgers made in the transfer market - not seeking a player who could control a game from midfield. His preference was for players that weren't specialists at a particular skill or role, which is fine up to a point but unfortunately can easily transfer into bringing in players that don't particularly excel at anything.

As a result, in fixtures like these (and indeed, it's been the case in our last few games) where controlling the midfield and thereby (usually) controlling the game is so important, you can suffer against well organised teams. Both Newcastle and Watford also sought to be aggressive in midfield to try and stifle our play through the middle and 'break' off the deep players from the attack.

In this match in particular, we were truly atrocious in this area. Watford deserve credit for how compact and aggressive they were - they more or less played a 4-4-2/4-4-1-1 but the front six were narrow, with the wide players 'pinching in' and the front two helping the midfield to press as well and as such, even though on paper we had a numerical advantage in midfield, on the pitch we often had a numerical disadvantage.

This is where a midfield orchestrator can be so crucial. We needed to control the tempo of the game, not let Watford bring us down to their level with their speed and aggression and to try and push them back. This is where I feel we lost the match. Neither Lucas, Henderson or Can are proficient at retaining possession and dictating a game under pressure and as such we lost any kind of threat through the middle of the pitch. That made playing Firmino up front more or less pointless - poor as he may have been, playing him up front on his own basically requires you to have good association through midfield and we were completely unable to get any kind of domination in this area. Neither Lucas, Henderson or Can, who all started the game in CM, had above 75% passing accuracy by the end. When you also bear in mind that we had around 65% of the possession, the fact that neither Lallana (who managed 74 minutes) nor Coutinho (who was on the pitch for the whole game) managed to reach 30 successful passes is a pretty shocking statistic in itself and speaks volumes about how easy it was for Watford to completely disrupt play through the middle.

Without that domination in midfield, the obvious tactic would have been to go out-to-in - 'hollow' out the middle in the construction phase, have Henderson and Can split fairly wide, look for dynamic play on the flanks and then quickly attack the space between the lines. The option to go direct wasn't initially there without Benteke or Origi so a plan like this would have made sense. The issue was the execution. There were plenty of switches to Moreno, who often had space on the left because of Watford's narrowness, but this led to nothing - there was no real dynamic or understanding between him, Coutinho and Can and on the other side, Clyne looked mentally fatigued, and had absolutely no relationship with Lallana at all. As such, the attack was more or less limited in the first half to switching play to Moreno in space, him playing it to Coutinho or Can inside and hoping that they would do something. Indeed, three of the four highest passing combinations involved Moreno and nothing really came of this. When you add in Sakho's abysmal second half performance then all you're left with is a team without control over a game (despite it's possession), without penetration, without partnerships or combinations and one that simply fails to bring its attacking threats into the match. When it's like that, all you can hope for is that they make as few a mistakes as possible and obviously that didn't happen either.
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Offline lionel_messias

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Re: Round Table: Watford 3 Liverpool 0
« Reply #52 on: December 22, 2015, 12:08:00 pm »
I don't think many people acknowledge how easy this league is to do well in. A team that was fighting relegation last season are at the top of the league, and we're here still talking about 'rebuilding'. We don't need to rebuild the squad, and i know Rodgers loved to use that phrase about 'transition' and all that, partly because he knew us as fans our pretty on the balance pretty fair. But this is the same Rodgers who challenged for the league in his 2nd season, by his last season the phrases building and transition, simply became excuses, it takes us years upon on end to rebuild, yet you get teams who are perennial relegation candidates and straight from the Championship getting it right within a few months? The only rebuilding we should be doing is at academy level, the squad doesn't need rebuilding it needs a little trim here and there.

It's very difficult to say how good we are because what gets in the way is always management. For example we were far less than the sum of our parts under later-regime Rodgers who seemed to drain players of their confidence by playing them out of position.

But now we do have Klopp and his team, we can still see that our team is not tough enough, we don't dominate teams with players on much lower wagers than ours, and we don't react well if they score first.

Most of us would not say Newcastle, West Brom or Watford are great teams (Watford are good as discussed) yet they outdid us in crucial areas.

So I would say we do need to rebuild our defence and midfield in order to dominate/scrap with the physical and well organised Premier League team.

The assumption that Lucas + Can/Hendo/Milner is good enough is being proven wrong. We wanted it to be true because that also painted Klopp as some sort of fairy dust/genius type figure but he is just a very very very good football manager.

As such, he will need better, more suited tools to get the job done.
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Offline Lippy The Lion

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Re: Round Table: Watford 3 Liverpool 0
« Reply #53 on: December 22, 2015, 12:19:22 pm »


Jurgen obviously knows what he's doing and no doubt he’ll come up with a solution about how to play against these sorts of teams. I wonder if it might be an idea to sit back and invite them onto us. Quite what happens when you have two teams set up to do that, I don’t know, other than the certainty that it’ll be an awful game.


They don't all sit back though, in fact Watford and a few other teams we have met are very clever with their positioning on the pitch. They ceceed the midfield mostly but then load the top and bottom of the pitch

Unless the midfield is working extremely well, along with accurate passing out of defence, we struggle badly as we saw here

Even when we broke into the space in midfield nobody had a clue what to do with the ball.

It's perplexing that the same players used vs City could do put out this performance

It's like they had a Men in Black mind wipe after the Soton game.
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Re: Round Table: Watford 3 Liverpool 0
« Reply #54 on: December 22, 2015, 12:27:02 pm »
I don't think many people acknowledge how easy this league is to do well in. A team that was fighting relegation last season are at the top of the league, and we're here still talking about 'rebuilding'.

Bravo!  :wellin

You've got it in a nutshell.

The only thing we need to rebuild is our attitude. The one where we expect to roll over unglamourous opponents, or anyone who visits "Fortress" Anfield. These are delusions, and they are killing us.

The days when "lesser" teams would be intimidated by big names are over. Now every team has to go out and earn each victory. 

If you only watched Bogdan dropping the ball you might write it off as just one of those things, a howler that happens from time to time. But you'd be wrong. Because in the minute that led up to that corner, we were repeatedly pressured and bullied off the ball. Goals are rarely isolated moments of magic, but the results of a sequence of minor victories between individual players. In the first minute at Watford we repeatedly lost possession, lost out in tackles, and ultimately conceded a calamitously soft opener that smashed our brittle mentality even further.

Rodgers had to go because he believed our team's failure was a problem of personnel, a lack of talent. After spending several hundred million pounds, this was nonsense.

You know that snarl Klopp does when he's really worked up?



Yeah, that one.

That's the mentality that we need from each and every one of our players.

Leicester are deservedly top of the league because Pest is Best.
They pester the opposition, they work tirelessly, but they also keep it simple.
They move the ball forward quickly, and into the box incisively. In the heady days of 2014, we used to play that way, now we just dick around in possession, playing half a dozen pointless triangles before lofting a pass into a now heavily defended box.

We need to play faster, more aggressively, more directly.

Over to you, Jürgen...



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Re: Round Table: Watford 3 Liverpool 0
« Reply #55 on: December 22, 2015, 12:29:00 pm »
Been waiting for that to happen to be honest. Lucas reads the game extremely well and is good in the air, it seems a more logical choice than Can, who really is a CM. Lucas isn't the tallest, but he's bigger than Mascherano, who also ended up defense.

Think is fairly common in the Bundesliga to see players in DM one day and CB the next.

Does he have the necessary marking skills though? That's what I was asking myself when I was watching him at centre back. It just felt a bit as if he was one step behind whenever it was about a duel with one of the attackers, because of the way he's used to marking in midfield. There it's much more about controlling the space rather than a certain man. I don't really see Lucas playing in central defence as a regular occurence. To me, it looked very much like a one off in a situation where Klopp wanted to make a bold decision.

In terms of, Lucas or Can taking Skrtel's place I think Lucas is the obvious choice as Can's passing can be very lose and sometimes his decision-making is off...

Offline leivapool

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Re: Round Table: Watford 3 Liverpool 0
« Reply #56 on: December 22, 2015, 12:47:25 pm »
snip.

This is where a midfield orchestrator can be so crucial. We needed to control the tempo of the game, not let Watford bring us down to their level with their speed and aggression and to try and push them back. This is where I feel we lost the match. Neither Lucas, Henderson or Can are proficient at retaining possession and dictating a game under pressure and as such we lost any kind of threat through the middle of the pitch. That made playing Firmino up front more or less pointless - poor as he may have been, playing him up front on his own basically requires you to have good association through midfield and we were completely unable to get any kind of domination in this area. Neither Lucas, Henderson or Can, who all started the game in CM, had above 75% passing accuracy by the end. When you also bear in mind that we had around 65% of the possession, the fact that neither Lallana (who managed 74 minutes) nor Coutinho (who was on the pitch for the whole game) managed to reach 30 successful passes is a pretty shocking statistic in itself and speaks volumes about how easy it was for Watford to completely disrupt play through the middle.

snip

Whilst you argue your point well and I don't disagree,  we were completely bossed in midfield by a Watford midfield  that had passing accuracies of 68.4% (Capoue),  50%  (Watson),  61.9% (Abdi) and 81% (Jurado).  Passing accuracy is not a predicator of bossing a game it seems :(

Further,  their defence had accuracy of 23.5% (Cathcart) 61.9% (Britos),  57.1  (Ake) 50% (Nyom).  We got the ball back plenty,  just that our forward six players did nothing with it.
Rossiter absolutely bossed it tonight. Really believe he'll end up playing more games this season than Lucas.


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Offline 007.lankyguy

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Re: Round Table: Watford 3 Liverpool 0
« Reply #57 on: December 22, 2015, 12:53:34 pm »
Whilst you argue your point well and I don't disagree,  we were completely bossed in midfield by a Watford midfield  that had passing accuracies of 68.4% (Capoue),  50%  (Watson),  61.9% (Abdi) and 81% (Jurado).  Passing accuracy is not a predicator of bossing a game it seems :(

Further,  their defence had accuracy of 23.5% (Cathcart) 61.9% (Britos),  57.1  (Ake) 50% (Nyom).  We got the ball back plenty,  just that our forward six players did nothing with it.
Passing accuracy CAN tell you something when you have 65% of the possession. Watford largely controlled what happened in midfield through how they played defensively, not through how they played in possession. It was because of their narrowness, compactness and aggression, in combination with our lack of orchestration and ball retention that we failed to dominate that area. My point was that in this match, where we had most of the ball, we had to control the midfield through how we played in possession and they had to control it through how they played out of possession. They did their job, we didn't.
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Re: Round Table: Watford 3 Liverpool 0
« Reply #58 on: December 22, 2015, 01:07:16 pm »

Cracking post, for me that was the clear issue, rather than our players not working hard enough. With Klopp, we will very likely see a shift to more specialist / game 'orchestrating' centre mids like those that Rafa targeted, rather than the utility, hard-working, quick but relatively limited as centre mid types like Milner. I was interested in Rodgers trying out Milner - Hendo in a set-up not too far away from what Watford do, they showed how it can be effective, but it never really got going, we changed the players but were still asking too much in possession from those two.

Offline Iloveyoumamadou

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Re: Round Table: Watford 3 Liverpool 0
« Reply #59 on: December 22, 2015, 01:16:03 pm »
For me, the main thing that stood out was our lack of domination in midfield. You can discuss defensive errors, you can discuss lack of penetration but when there's absolutely nothing through midfield, you suffer at both ends and this is something that has been a weak point for years. We don't have an 'orchestrator' in the squad - I've banged on about it for a while but Coutinho isn't a deep orchestrator, Lucas obviously isn't, Henderson isn't, Milner certainly isn't, Allen isn't, Can's the closest but he definitely isn't either. It's one of the serious errors I felt Rodgers made in the transfer market - not seeking a player who could control a game from midfield. His preference was for players that weren't specialists at a particular skill or role, which is fine up to a point but unfortunately can easily transfer into bringing in players that don't particularly excel at anything.

As a result, in fixtures like these (and indeed, it's been the case in our last few games) where controlling the midfield and thereby (usually) controlling the game is so important, you can suffer against well organised teams. Both Newcastle and Watford also sought to be aggressive in midfield to try and stifle our play through the middle and 'break' off the deep players from the attack.

In this match in particular, we were truly atrocious in this area. Watford deserve credit for how compact and aggressive they were - they more or less played a 4-4-2/4-4-1-1 but the front six were narrow, with the wide players 'pinching in' and the front two helping the midfield to press as well and as such, even though on paper we had a numerical advantage in midfield, on the pitch we often had a numerical disadvantage.

This is where a midfield orchestrator can be so crucial. We needed to control the tempo of the game, not let Watford bring us down to their level with their speed and aggression and to try and push them back. This is where I feel we lost the match. Neither Lucas, Henderson or Can are proficient at retaining possession and dictating a game under pressure and as such we lost any kind of threat through the middle of the pitch. That made playing Firmino up front more or less pointless - poor as he may have been, playing him up front on his own basically requires you to have good association through midfield and we were completely unable to get any kind of domination in this area. Neither Lucas, Henderson or Can, who all started the game in CM, had above 75% passing accuracy by the end. When you also bear in mind that we had around 65% of the possession, the fact that neither Lallana (who managed 74 minutes) nor Coutinho (who was on the pitch for the whole game) managed to reach 30 successful passes is a pretty shocking statistic in itself and speaks volumes about how easy it was for Watford to completely disrupt play through the middle.

Without that domination in midfield, the obvious tactic would have been to go out-to-in - 'hollow' out the middle in the construction phase, have Henderson and Can split fairly wide, look for dynamic play on the flanks and then quickly attack the space between the lines. The option to go direct wasn't initially there without Benteke or Origi so a plan like this would have made sense. The issue was the execution. There were plenty of switches to Moreno, who often had space on the left because of Watford's narrowness, but this led to nothing - there was no real dynamic or understanding between him, Coutinho and Can and on the other side, Clyne looked mentally fatigued, and had absolutely no relationship with Lallana at all. As such, the attack was more or less limited in the first half to switching play to Moreno in space, him playing it to Coutinho or Can inside and hoping that they would do something. Indeed, three of the four highest passing combinations involved Moreno and nothing really came of this. When you add in Sakho's abysmal second half performance then all you're left with is a team without control over a game (despite it's possession), without penetration, without partnerships or combinations and one that simply fails to bring its attacking threats into the match. When it's like that, all you can hope for is that they make as few a mistakes as possible and obviously that didn't happen either.
I think this sums up the issues with the midfield very well. You mention that with the players we had up front we needed good association through midfield. But I think, whilst the midfield is weak, it's extremely difficult to pass through the press and this is where wingers would have come in handy. Our lack of them is the squad's other glaring issue. The teams to beat Watford this season have been Man United,Leicester, Arsenal, Crystal Palace and Man City. Something they all had in common in those games was pacy wide players to exploit Watford's extreme narrowness. (Depay, Lingard) (Mahrez, Vardy) (Walcott, Sanchez) (Sako, Bolasie) (Sterling, Navas)

 It's the way to beat Watford and to not have that option in our squad is a huge weakness. The only player in our entire squad who fits this profile is Ibe. Maybe Origi, maybe Markovic will return, maybe Ojo but it is a huge deficiency in our squad. It means that no matter what team we play against, or what team we play with, we end up playing narrow. So Moreno and Clyne are giving huge attacking responsibility. They did often make inroads with the switch but this advantage was negated by the fact that they had no one to combine with outside and instead ended up passing to lallana and coutinho in the congested middle. I don't think we had the players or established team wide play to perform well against a direct and narrow Watford team.

Offline Johns_Barn

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Re: Round Table: Watford 3 Liverpool 0
« Reply #60 on: December 22, 2015, 01:26:17 pm »
Bad start the whole team's performance was flat, we got what we deserved on that performance but let's hope History repeats itself and it is another watershed moment at Watford with a lot of success to follow.

I would not single out any player yesterday they collectively stank the place out. 

Have to add Watford have had a lot of decent results this season and there are no easy teams in the prem anymore, so all our fans or players for that matter who looked at that game thinking the opposition were shit and would just roll over for us are totally deluded.



Indeed. I suspect few have a taken a look at Quique Sánchez Flores' CV. He's done some good work across the continent. Maybe his move to the middle east took him off pundits radar.

I missed the game (listened on radio - it sounded like a typical LFC poor day out- and instead I went to the Emirates last night. It's sad we're off the pace because none of those two were great shakes at all.

Who is our man on the pitch that riles up our crowd as Jurgen did against WBA? Who is the player that even when the chips are down sticks the boots in to set the standard for the rest of the team?


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Re: Round Table: Watford 3 Liverpool 0
« Reply #61 on: December 22, 2015, 01:27:28 pm »
For me, the main thing that stood out was our lack of domination in midfield. You can discuss defensive errors, you can discuss lack of penetration but when there's absolutely nothing through midfield, you suffer at both ends and this is something that has been a weak point for years. We don't have an 'orchestrator' in the squad - I've banged on about it for a while but Coutinho isn't a deep orchestrator, Lucas obviously isn't, Henderson isn't, Milner certainly isn't, Allen isn't, Can's the closest but he definitely isn't either. It's one of the serious errors I felt Rodgers made in the transfer market - not seeking a player who could control a game from midfield. His preference was for players that weren't specialists at a particular skill or role, which is fine up to a point but unfortunately can easily transfer into bringing in players that don't particularly excel at anything.

As a result, in fixtures like these (and indeed, it's been the case in our last few games) where controlling the midfield and thereby (usually) controlling the game is so important, you can suffer against well organised teams. Both Newcastle and Watford also sought to be aggressive in midfield to try and stifle our play through the middle and 'break' off the deep players from the attack.

In this match in particular, we were truly atrocious in this area. Watford deserve credit for how compact and aggressive they were - they more or less played a 4-4-2/4-4-1-1 but the front six were narrow, with the wide players 'pinching in' and the front two helping the midfield to press as well and as such, even though on paper we had a numerical advantage in midfield, on the pitch we often had a numerical disadvantage.

This is where a midfield orchestrator can be so crucial. We needed to control the tempo of the game, not let Watford bring us down to their level with their speed and aggression and to try and push them back. This is where I feel we lost the match. Neither Lucas, Henderson or Can are proficient at retaining possession and dictating a game under pressure and as such we lost any kind of threat through the middle of the pitch. That made playing Firmino up front more or less pointless - poor as he may have been, playing him up front on his own basically requires you to have good association through midfield and we were completely unable to get any kind of domination in this area. Neither Lucas, Henderson or Can, who all started the game in CM, had above 75% passing accuracy by the end. When you also bear in mind that we had around 65% of the possession, the fact that neither Lallana (who managed 74 minutes) nor Coutinho (who was on the pitch for the whole game) managed to reach 30 successful passes is a pretty shocking statistic in itself and speaks volumes about how easy it was for Watford to completely disrupt play through the middle.

Without that domination in midfield, the obvious tactic would have been to go out-to-in - 'hollow' out the middle in the construction phase, have Henderson and Can split fairly wide, look for dynamic play on the flanks and then quickly attack the space between the lines. The option to go direct wasn't initially there without Benteke or Origi so a plan like this would have made sense. The issue was the execution. There were plenty of switches to Moreno, who often had space on the left because of Watford's narrowness, but this led to nothing - there was no real dynamic or understanding between him, Coutinho and Can and on the other side, Clyne looked mentally fatigued, and had absolutely no relationship with Lallana at all. As such, the attack was more or less limited in the first half to switching play to Moreno in space, him playing it to Coutinho or Can inside and hoping that they would do something. Indeed, three of the four highest passing combinations involved Moreno and nothing really came of this. When you add in Sakho's abysmal second half performance then all you're left with is a team without control over a game (despite it's possession), without penetration, without partnerships or combinations and one that simply fails to bring its attacking threats into the match. When it's like that, all you can hope for is that they make as few a mistakes as possible and obviously that didn't happen either.

Things make more sense to me after reading this. Thanks.

Trying to interpret Klopp's gestures, it looked like our idea was to play the ball around and then go long. With that in mind, I was quite surprised to see how many times we were called offside. It's as if Watford had no problems to read what we were trying to do, but they were also good enough to execute their plan to prevent it.

        * * * * * *


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Re: Round Table: Watford 3 Liverpool 0
« Reply #62 on: December 22, 2015, 01:39:41 pm »
I think this sums up the issues with the midfield very well. You mention that with the players we had up front we needed good association through midfield. But I think, whilst the midfield is weak, it's extremely difficult to pass through the press and this is where wingers would have come in handy. Our lack of them is the squad's other glaring issue. The teams to beat Watford this season have been Man United,Leicester, Arsenal, Crystal Palace and Man City. Something they all had in common in those games was pacy wide players to exploit Watford's extreme narrowness. (Depay, Lingard) (Mahrez, Vardy) (Walcott, Sanchez) (Sako, Bolasie) (Sterling, Navas)

 It's the way to beat Watford and to not have that option in our squad is a huge weakness. The only player in our entire squad who fits this profile is Ibe. Maybe Origi, maybe Markovic will return, maybe Ojo but it is a huge deficiency in our squad. It means that no matter what team we play against, or what team we play with, we end up playing narrow. So Moreno and Clyne are giving huge attacking responsibility. They did often make inroads with the switch but this advantage was negated by the fact that they had no one to combine with outside and instead ended up passing to lallana and coutinho in the congested middle. I don't think we had the players or established team wide play to perform well against a direct and narrow Watford team.
More or less agree. We're very much lacking in the wide areas; there's far too much responsibility on Ibe as the go-to-winger. Incidentally, I think Clyne is better going forward than many people actually realise and better than he's shown this season but he needs a one or two players to combine with in order to make the most of his strengths and when he doesn't have that, he struggles more in possession.
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Offline stoj

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Re: Round Table: Watford 3 Liverpool 0
« Reply #63 on: December 22, 2015, 01:42:19 pm »
I thought the pitch looked pretty terrible for playing any sort of passing game and the players looked to have been picked for that exact type of game. I think it was pretty clear early on that we were struggling and some of the players did not look up for it, whilst others were having bad days. I belive we should have reverted to Benteke and Origi very early on and play far more direct.  I felt sorry for Sakho, returning from injury, with 2 strong, inform forwards harassing him, then losing a regular (despite what people think of him) in Skrtel.

We just didnt look up to the fight and sadly, i dont think there is enough goals, fight or guile in our midfield. None of them look capable of scoring. How confident are you when any of them get a shooting chance?

That being said, Watford played the perfect game against us, knew our weaknesses and exploited them. They knew the pitch and knew their game. I take my hat of to them despite the dissapointment. Im gklad in a way because alot of people were getting carried away a few weeks back and this has definately brought us all back down to earth.

Offline kcbworth

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Re: Round Table: Watford 3 Liverpool 0
« Reply #64 on: December 22, 2015, 01:50:12 pm »
Bravo!  :wellin

You've got it in a nutshell.

The only thing we need to rebuild is our attitude. The one where we expect to roll over unglamourous opponents, or anyone who visits "Fortress" Anfield. These are delusions, and they are killing us.

The days when "lesser" teams would be intimidated by big names are over. Now every team has to go out and earn each victory. 

If you only watched Bogdan dropping the ball you might write it off as just one of those things, a howler that happens from time to time. But you'd be wrong. Because in the minute that led up to that corner, we were repeatedly pressured and bullied off the ball. Goals are rarely isolated moments of magic, but the results of a sequence of minor victories between individual players. In the first minute at Watford we repeatedly lost possession, lost out in tackles, and ultimately conceded a calamitously soft opener that smashed our brittle mentality even further.

Rodgers had to go because he believed our team's failure was a problem of personnel, a lack of talent. After spending several hundred million pounds, this was nonsense.

You know that snarl Klopp does when he's really worked up?



Yeah, that one.

That's the mentality that we need from each and every one of our players.

Leicester are deservedly top of the league because Pest is Best.
They pester the opposition, they work tirelessly, but they also keep it simple.
They move the ball forward quickly, and into the box incisively. In the heady days of 2014, we used to play that way, now we just dick around in possession, playing half a dozen pointless triangles before lofting a pass into a now heavily defended box.

We need to play faster, more aggressively, more directly.

Over to you, Jürgen...





Great post!

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Re: Round Table: Watford 3 Liverpool 0
« Reply #65 on: December 22, 2015, 01:57:02 pm »
I think the famous poet and football pundit Henry Wadsworth Longfellow summed up the current situation at Liverpool aptly in a poem about a little girl

When she was good 
She was very, very good,         
..  And when she was bad she was horrid
.

Spot on Henry!
Totally irrelevant from me, but is that really Longfellow or have I been utterly trawled for Christmas?
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Re: Round Table: Watford 3 Liverpool 0
« Reply #66 on: December 22, 2015, 02:01:09 pm »
Tony Barrett is spot on, echoing what I believe and wrote yesterday. The balance of average and world class players is skewed. As long as I can remember we've always had a top class striker who can turn a game and a keeper who made our goal as impenetrable as Fort Knox. Now we have neither along with a world class player who raises the game of everyone around him. 
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Re: Round Table: Watford 3 Liverpool 0
« Reply #67 on: December 22, 2015, 02:08:15 pm »
Totally irrelevant from me, but is that really Longfellow or have I been utterly trawled for Christmas?

Longfellow, apparently.

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Re: Round Table: Watford 3 Liverpool 0
« Reply #68 on: December 22, 2015, 02:14:08 pm »
Individual mistake which lead to an early goal.  Our team is mentally fragile, things going well they pass it around like Barca, things going shit they brick it.

Something could probably be said for our setup, but hard to say when your down a goal so early.

Our players are for the most part average.

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Re: Round Table: Watford 3 Liverpool 0
« Reply #69 on: December 22, 2015, 03:08:59 pm »
If you are not going to worry the defence then i dont see how you can stop the opposition executing the game plan. Their forwards were stronger than our centre backs and if they were not, they would have chose another tactic.

What you saw was a Liverpool side that had clearly studied Watford. They play narrow and we tried to create space outwide. The problem was we couldnt execute the game plan. We couldnt by pass the midfield as you say becauee we didnt have any player wanting to break forward, take it on the run and work the channels.

If you compress the game down so much then you are relying on your players to create chances on a tough pitch in tight spaces (which they couldnt) and for your players to win the 50-50's (which they didnt).

Beginning of 2nd half, I thought we tried to be more direct. We aimed long balls for Origi to get on to, and he did  a few times. That was when we had our best spell of the game and should have scored from at least one of the chances we created.
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Re: Round Table: Watford 3 Liverpool 0
« Reply #70 on: December 22, 2015, 04:35:42 pm »
Beginning of 2nd half, I thought we tried to be more direct. We aimed long balls for Origi to get on to, and he did  a few times. That was when we had our best spell of the game and should have scored from at least one of the chances we created.

Yeah and in hindsight, we start with that. Maybe the manager got it wrong and underestimated the pitch and their tactics but the players need to be smart enough and work this out. But to be fair to them, they didn't have the players in the team to do that stretching.

I think this could be one of those examples where leadership takes it form in a different way. Where are the street smarts? Are the players capable of sussing out what is and isnt working and can they sort it out themselves and adjust the tactics on the field? Is this where so many young players are proving an issue or is it a case of our players just not being smart enough.

Henderson kept playing the same ball and looking for the same space in that first half. It was clearly a tactic but we were getting no joy. Is he then thinking this isn't working, lets try something else?

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Re: Round Table: Watford 3 Liverpool 0
« Reply #71 on: December 22, 2015, 07:00:06 pm »
I'm not a stats man but I will say what I saw.

Unlike a lot on here I didn't think Watford were particularly good. I think we didn't work hard enough at least certainly not in the right areas. I understand that it's less effective  to press a side that don't play possession football but if you don't press a side they will adapt to the time you have given them. This side weren't going long willy nilly though I strongly believe they would have if we had pressed them. That's what we should have done, particularly on a poor surface.  The way we stood off them in areas on Sunday I actually think a good team would have murdered us. ( yes I know we kinda got murdered as it was).

Early on we had the deadly double whammy of a high line with no pressure on the ball. A recipie for disaster. Yet in general Watford didn't take advantage.

At the other end of the field the lack of press meant that we didn't win the ball in high areas, that's the cornerstone of Klopp's philosophy as I understand. Was it a conscious decision not to press because of the way Watford play? If so I'd say that's a bad decision. If you sit back off a side with decent footballers they will play. I don't think Watford were good enough to take full advantage - yet they still beat us 3 nil.

Personally I thought Klopp picked the wrong side but in fairness to our manager while the introduction of Origi improved us temporarily, the arrival of Benteke and Ibe saw us regress significantly. It's hard to definitively say he picked the wrong side. It's much easier to identify that we simply didn't work hard enough as a unit. As the old saying goes you have the earn the right to play. We didn't.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2015, 07:04:28 pm by goalrushatgoodison »
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Offline G1 Jockey 4(betfair)

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Re: Round Table: Watford 3 Liverpool 0
« Reply #72 on: December 22, 2015, 07:14:22 pm »
Sunday was down to them knowing how to cope with our attack.
No attacker willing to protect the space for attackers to run into allowed them to squeeze and condense any space for coutinio and co.
As a result we had not enough options forward unmarked to pass to.
Now the fitness issue.
We had a pre season under rodgers and now we have a new regime.
We arent rotating enough but on the plus side we have to get used to 2 games a week so with that approach we will get used to it in time.

Expect a spell of erratic results but long term improvement.

One thing that does need to improve is first time passing to take full advantage fo winning the ball in the press.
At the moment we have a few too many who like to take a touch then assess rather than see it before the ball has arrived at their feet.

sort that out and players like firminio will thrive because they see runs a lot earlier but have little chance of influencing with the players who cant keep the flow going behind them.

Clyne needs to improve this.
Can and henderson too.
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Offline steveeastend

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Re: Round Table: Watford 3 Liverpool 0
« Reply #73 on: December 22, 2015, 07:22:53 pm »
Henderson kept playing the same ball and looking for the same space in that first half. It was clearly a tactic but we were getting no joy. Is he then thinking this isn't working, lets try something else?

No offense but this is beyond naive to think football works like that, on such a simplified level. Yes, there were players being the perfect link between  manager and the team, changing games on their own while being some sort of this one leader everybody around here thinks would make such a difference on the pitch... but that's so rare, so very rarely happening in football that it makes more sense to rule this one out, reduce leadership to a simple motivation factor of one player or another, especially when looking at this squad. In fact Henderson has so much more to prove before even coming anywhere close to be even worth a motivator on the pitch... has he EVER turned a game around by his performance only? And how many times you would expect a player having to do so before coming to some sort captain honours?

Only one of many questions marks when people discuss this squad and as much as there is truth to what Tony Evans is refering to I do not believe for one minute that the quality of this squad has anything to do with recent results. Yes, there was an outflow of top quality after Rafa happening, for years, with few people pointing their fingers to this but those were pretty much always shut down by the hpye created by singings like Andy Carroll, best header of the ball, Stewart Downing, the player the club was crying out for years or recently James Milner, our savour for center midfield, together with many other questionable signings who only kept some agents happy or whoever made profit from those signings, the football of this club for sure being left unimpressed. But we know that, still I think it has nothing to do with recent results...

In my opinion, all those reasons people are trying to find for recent results are speculation as at this point we got a manager coming from a different country, not knowing the league or the players the way it should be and players having to adopt, which needs more than a couple of weeks only in our particular situation in order to nail results and performances on a regular basis. Klopp is coming from a different football culture, different fixtures, different tactics, different style, different refs, different intensity in training which the players have to get used to. Usually players get injured and look tired in games if the intensity in training is turned up a notch, frankly I reckon it's been two or three, and no way there isn't a dip in freshness and fitness kicking in after a couple of weeks, which is exactly what we are witnessing at the moment.

There isn't more to it than a new manager coming in and finding his way with players adopting to it which has the engine stottering at the beginning, there really isn't, although people are desperately trying to find something else in there. Patience while not writing the season off is all there is for us fans at the moment, I guess there isn't any better news at this point.
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Offline G1 Jockey 4(betfair)

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Re: Round Table: Watford 3 Liverpool 0
« Reply #74 on: December 22, 2015, 07:27:49 pm »
btw have they intalled the footballnaught at melwood?
because our passing is woeful compared to all other pressing sides.

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Offline Chakan

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Re: Round Table: Watford 3 Liverpool 0
« Reply #75 on: December 22, 2015, 07:29:53 pm »
btw have they intalled the footballnaught at melwood?
because our passing is woeful compared to all other pressing sides.



A what?

Offline Funky_Gibbons

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Re: Round Table: Watford 3 Liverpool 0
« Reply #76 on: December 22, 2015, 07:40:07 pm »
A what?
A modern, hi-tec version of the sweatbox.
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Re: Round Table: Watford 3 Liverpool 0
« Reply #77 on: December 22, 2015, 07:59:04 pm »
A what?

Google it, it's pretty cool. Dortmund were the first to get it, I think.
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Offline Chakan

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Re: Round Table: Watford 3 Liverpool 0
« Reply #78 on: December 22, 2015, 08:02:55 pm »
Google it, it's pretty cool. Dortmund were the first to get it, I think.

Did you mean: football night?

"the Footbonaut" looks pretty cool that.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2015, 08:09:11 pm by Happy cHanukkahn »

Offline smurfinaus

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Re: Round Table: Watford 3 Liverpool 0
« Reply #79 on: December 22, 2015, 08:58:53 pm »
Agree about the squad. We don't need a whole new side of superstars, but we need to add two or three.

I think we should look at the City, Chelsea and Southampton games and realise that's our top level. It's sound to accept how bad we were vs Watford, but it's also wise to accept that we can be really good when things click. It's about three games, not a single one, so it should mean something.

Watford impressed me. I think Sanchez Flores has a big part in that. They get a lot from their players. They are hard to beat. It was frustrating to see how easily they countered our threats. They knew how to beat us and they're not the only ones. If we can't get our act together, we'll see more of the same throughout the season.

There was some comments from a journo/fan on anfield wrap who said Flores basically does specific tactics for each team they play against. That helps.