Author Topic: Munich 1958  (Read 63606 times)

Offline bigbear

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #80 on: February 6, 2008, 07:22:57 pm »
RIP. A tragic loss of talent.

Offline Pata

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #81 on: February 6, 2008, 08:29:06 pm »
RIP

Offline United

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #82 on: February 7, 2008, 03:58:41 am »
Thank you everyone

And than thank you kesey

No I didn't come here to gloat - I want a return to the days when the two greatest clubs in world football slugged it out for the Title, time we put those cockney upstarts back in their boxes

For goodness sake can't you get Tommy Smith to write a threatening letter to your team and read it out to them just before the kick off

Offline SwedenRed

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #83 on: February 7, 2008, 08:10:50 am »
two greatest clubs in world football slugged it out for the Title,
Liverpool and?

Offline all_funkt_up

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #84 on: February 7, 2008, 08:50:20 am »
But again thank you - somethings are bigger than rivalry

Definitely.
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Offline novredder

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #85 on: February 7, 2008, 09:54:33 am »
From all written accounts and testimonials of greats such as Bobby Charlton, this was undoubtedly going to be a great team. There can be no doubt that it was a team capable of winning more European Cups for Man U, just like no one knows how many more Euros Liverpool would have won had it not been banned from Europe during its own peak. It is sad when these kind of incidents do happen. RIP great ones and keep playing soccer in the sky till we all get there.
YNWA, period!

Offline manxmanc

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #86 on: February 7, 2008, 03:42:45 pm »
Just signed up to thank all the comments in this thread....

Cheers.

Offline Beggerz

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #87 on: February 7, 2008, 04:47:21 pm »
A sad loss for the English game, we mustn't let our hate for united hide that fact. RIP

Offline foreverandever

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #88 on: February 7, 2008, 05:23:27 pm »
RIP
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Offline lfcjamie

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #89 on: February 7, 2008, 05:36:57 pm »
Thank you all for your kind words


There are some other things that happened over Munich that fans of both clubs would do well to remember

After the crash Liverpool were the first ones to ask us "What can we do to help?" In fact you offered us the pick of your reserve team

Bill Shankly, who was at Huddersfield at the time went to Munich to visit Matt Busby in hospital, apart from his immediate family Shanks was the only one to do so

That's why you will never hear us older United fans put you down, we'll laugh and take the Micheal when you lose to us, or accept it when you win, but deep down there is a fond memory and respect for you,


But again thank you - somethings are bigger than rivalry

Very well said mate.

We can all have a bit of banter with each other, but when it goes beyond that it's totally unacceptable.

Offline Fairytale of 2005

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #90 on: February 7, 2008, 08:20:29 pm »
Very well said mate.

We can all have a bit of banter with each other, but when it goes beyond that it's totally unacceptable.

Agreed. Sadly modern society has more than its fair share of idiots & the mindless.

RIP

Offline bongo6899

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #91 on: February 7, 2008, 10:57:35 pm »
Thank you all for you nice comments.It just goes to show that all Liverpool and United fans do not hate each other.

In 1964 I was in the paddock at Liverpool when you beat us 2-0, might have been 3-0. No problem at all with your fans. Again in 1977 was in the Blackbird pub near Wembley, having a pint with four Liverpool fans, once again no problems.

That is how I remember true Liverpool fans

Thank you all again.

Offline stretfordend

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #92 on: February 7, 2008, 11:26:15 pm »
I also just wanted to come on and thank everyone for there kind words.  Rivalries aside, at a time when the heart and soul of English football is being ripped apart it's important for genuine football fan's to stick together.

Offline UnitedRoadRed

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #93 on: February 7, 2008, 11:51:17 pm »
Just signed up to say well done to the Liverpool fans on showing far more class than the City fans.
Possibly because our rivalry is based on begrudging respect for each other unlike the bitters.

Well done lads and I'd have far fewer concerns about Sunday's silence if it were you that we were facing.

Offline shanklyboy

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #94 on: February 8, 2008, 01:19:24 am »
Just incase anyone wanted some more background on why there was injustice associated with Munich, here's a brief insight.

Munich Air Disaster: The pilot who was wrongly blamed for the crash

Sebuda Thain will finally lay to rest the cruel slur that destroyed her father and blighted the past 50 years of her life.
 
Despite the painful memories, she is determined to take her place alongside Manchester United fans and the families of the 23 passengers and crew killed in the crash at tomorrow's service to mark the Munich air disaster.

She says her beloved father Captain James Thain - the pilot wrongly accused of causing the crash - would want her to be there and she is determined to pay his respects to the dead.

"The crash completely changed our lives," says Sebuda, in the first interview she has ever given. "I was only seven when it happened and until then I had had a happy, normal life."

Now a 57-year-old teacher with two grown-up sons, Sebuda was nervous when she received an invitation to tomorrow's memorial.

Fifty years after the disaster that claimed the lives of eight footballers, she is still traumatised by the accusations and death threats that she believes contributed to her father's early death, at the age of 54.

"It took time for me to fully understand what was going on," she says.

"My parents tried to protect me but it was horrible to find out my dad was being blamed for the crash."

Emotions ran high in the months after the accident.

After the German inquiry, Captain Thain was the subject of a hate campaign.

"I was bullied at school over my dad's involvement with Munich and it was very upsetting," recalls Sebuda.

The BEA Elizabethan aeroplane crashed in appalling weather while attempting to take off from Munich Airport for the third time.

The plane failed to reach the speed required for take-off and as pilot Ken Rayment and Captain Thain, acting as co-pilot, struggled with the controls it smashed into a house and a fuel dump at the end of the runway.

The impact was enormous. Even then Manchester United were Britain's leading club. They had won three league titles in five years and were defying the English football authorities by testing themselves in Europe.

The West German aviation authorities insisted ice on the wings caused the crash and an inquiry concluded this was a clear case of pilot error. Ken Rayment was dead so the finger of blame pointed firmly to just one man.

Captain Thain was suspended from work and made a scapegoat. He spent the next 11 years trying to clear his name.

Two German inquiries into the crash blamed him.

It was not until 1969 that the results of a British investigation revealed it was slush on the runway - the responsibility of the airport - and not ice on the wings - the responsibility of the pilot - that caused the crash. The British findings concluded: "Blame for the accident is not to be imputed to Captain Thain."

But the Germans never accepted this.

Thain never flew as a pilot again and died in 1975.

Sebuda, from Berkshire, cannot forget the impact on her family as her mother, a science graduate who worked as a meteorologist during the Second World War, began endless experiments to help their case.

"Dad's world was turned upside down. He had huge problems to sort out. He lost his job so my mother returned to work as a teacher at the school I attended.

"My father did have a smallholding where he kept chickens but it was never successful as all his time was taken up trying to clear his name. There was endless paperwork and everything took so long. We did not have emails and instant communication then.

"My mother was a tower of strength. Her experiments helped to prove the accident was caused by the slush on the runway, not nonexistent ice on the wings.

"My father's torment went on for years.

There were three inquiries into the crash but in between there were years of painstaking preparation.

"They found themselves dealing with three powerful organisations - the German and British authorities and BEA.

Mum and Dad often appeared to be the only ones prepared to continue trying to establish the real cause of the accident.

"It was hard for Dad because he found out vital evidence had not been heard in the German inquiry and important witnesses were not called.

"Eventually, the British authorities cleared him. It brought some relief but he knew the Germans still blamed him and that was not right.

"My father simply wanted everyone to acknowledge the truth.

He was grateful the British inquiry cleared him but he was still deeply troubled the Germans did not agree.

"He was never able to resume his career and, because he was sacked, he didn't qualify for his pension."

To this day, the German authorities refuse to accept the British findings on the accident. Sebuda Thain and her family find that difficult to deal with.

"It is upsetting that even today, many people believe the first German view that the crash was caused by ice on the wing was correct," she says.

"The trouble is, people remember their first impressions and recall that my father was blamed, not that he was cleared 11 years later.

"My father died aged just 54 believing that he was the victim of a great injustice. He was bitter and who can blame him? He was an honest man and a fine pilot, and the crash was not his fault."

Indeed, an investigation just last year by aviation historian Stephen Morrin for a new book on the tragedy pointed out that Thain was a hero who tried to rescue passengers from the wreckage.

Sebuda has always shunned publicity and had no contact with United until recently. She is speaking out now to ensure the truth about the accident is remembered.

But her deepest sympathies have always been with the victims and it will be their families she will be thinking of tomorrow.

"One minute talented players were on the crest of a wave and the next minute this unbelievably cruel disaster wrecked so many lives.

"I am very pleased I have been invited. As well as paying respects on behalf of my late father, I'll be able to pay my own respects to those who lost their lives and to their families.

"I have moved on and don't believe in hanging on to the past. But I will attend the anniversary because I believe my dad would have wanted me to do it for him."

My father had death threats and I was bullied

He died bitter and who can blame him?

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Offline 24/7

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #95 on: February 8, 2008, 09:46:09 am »
Just incase anyone wanted some more background on why there was injustice associated with Munich, here's a brief insight.
That is fucking fantastic, Shanklyboy, thanks so much - a fascinating and very enlightening read :thumbup

Offline PhilScraton

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #96 on: February 8, 2008, 10:08:50 am »
Thanks, Shankly Boy, ... here's the coverage from the Manchester Evening News. Sebuda Thain's account shows the long term price that the victims of injustice pay. It has taken 50 years for all this to come out.

The daughter of the pilot wrongly accused of causing the Munich air crash will today make her first trip to Old Trafford to pay her father's final respects.

After half a century of shunning publicity Sebuda Thain, whose father Captain James Thain is still held responsible for the tragic accident by the German aviation authorities, has decided to attend Manchester United's memorial service.

Sebuda, 57, realises this could be her last chance to represent her father - who battled to clear his name.

She said of her father: "He believed he was the victim of a great injustice. He was bitter and who can blame him. The crash was not his fault.

"I am very pleased that I have been invited to the service. It will be the first opportunity I have had to meet other people who were involved."

Captain Thain's co-pilot Ken Rayment, who was at the controls when the plane crashed, died from his injuries.

Thain was blamed by the German authorities because he had not ordered the wings cleared of ice.

His death, in 1975, came six years after he'd spent 11 years fighting to clear his name.

Thain proved to a British inquiry that the accident was caused by slush on the runway, the responsibility of the airport, not the non-existent ice on the wings.

Cleared

Sebuda, a teacher who lives in Berkshire, said: "The British authorities cleared my father of all blame and that brought him a certain amount of relief but in his heart of hearts he knew that the Germans still blamed him and that was not right."

Sebuda was only seven when the tragedy happened and her family tried to protect her from the angry public reaction which included hate mail and death threats.

She said: "I was bullied and tormented at school over dad's involvement with Munich.

"It was very upsetting and difficult to avoid. Children can be very cruel."

She has great sympathy for the families who lost loved ones in the crash. Her father died - crushed by his ordeal - aged just 54.

"My father was a very straight person. Things to him were always black and white. There were no shades of grey. Something was either right or it was wrong and deep inside he knew it was still wrong.

"I have moved on and worked hard to build a good marriage and a happy family life and I don't believe in hanging on to the past.

"But I will attend the anniversary memorial service because my dad would have wanted to go and pay his final respects and I'll be able to pay my own respects to those who lost their lives and to their families."

As part of the tributes throughout the day, Steve Rayment - son of co-pilot Kenneth Rayment who lost his fight for life six weeks after the crash - will be presented with part of the wreckage by Stockport author Steve Morrin.

Mr Morrin has written a book about the Munich crash and managed to track down part of the BEA Elizabethan airliner to present to Steve, who has followed in his father's footsteps to become a commercial pilot.
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Offline Hank Scorpio

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #97 on: February 11, 2008, 06:53:44 pm »
Forgive the ignorant but do United have a minutes silence for this tragedy every year?

Offline Roughie Scouse

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #98 on: February 11, 2008, 06:54:31 pm »
RIP
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Offline shanklyboy

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #99 on: February 11, 2008, 07:17:42 pm »
Forgive the ignorant but do United have a minutes silence for this tragedy every year?

No.
The great enemy of the truth is very often not the lie — deliberate, contrived and dishonest — but the myth — persistent, persuasive and unrealistic.

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Offline LFCsnoopz

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #100 on: February 12, 2008, 05:12:43 am »
R.I.P from a young, though not immature red.

been learning alot over the last week or so, terrible thing to happen.
« Last Edit: February 12, 2008, 12:51:57 pm by hinesy »

Offline Romford_Red

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #101 on: February 20, 2008, 07:58:18 pm »
Liverpool and?


Liverpool reserves, obviously ;)

Joking aside, respect to anyone who has died in the service of football.

Offline I_hate_Mancs!

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #102 on: March 29, 2008, 07:18:20 pm »
I wuld feel terribly sorry for them but if they sing "96 wasnīt enough" then I donīt think I could feel sorry
"Oh Manchester is full of shit, oh Manchester is full of shit, oh shit, shit and bullshit, oh Manchester is full of SHIT!
Der der der der der der der derrrrrrrrr
der der der der der der der derrrrrrrrr
They donīt care about Rafa, they donīt care about fans, Liverpool Football club is in the wrong hands!
Amen

Offline jake-milroy

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #103 on: March 29, 2008, 07:44:36 pm »
I wuld feel terribly sorry for them but if they sing "96 wasnīt enough" then I donīt think I could feel sorry

some of our fans are just as bad, mate

Offline 24/7

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #104 on: March 30, 2008, 01:32:25 pm »
I wuld feel terribly sorry for them but if they sing "96 wasnīt enough" then I donīt think I could feel sorry
There's good and bad in all sets of supporter. Therefore it's a question of choice on your part and remember that two wrongs do not make a right. Instead of retaliation, try education. HFD! :)

Offline CONFIAMOS

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #105 on: April 24, 2011, 10:45:21 pm »
Probably worth a bump - Ive just been sent the link after watching 'united' on bbc2 and personally ive learnt a few things from the OP that a lot on here now might not have seen

Offline Liver4pool Rubberbandit

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #106 on: April 24, 2011, 11:33:45 pm »
There's good and bad in all sets of supporter. Therefore it's a question of choice on your part and remember that two wrongs do not make a right. Instead of retaliation, try education. HFD! :)

exactly!!!!!! RIP MUNICH 1958

Offline PhilScraton

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #107 on: April 25, 2011, 01:16:34 am »
While respecting Matt Busby's son's criticisms of the depiction of his father, United is a powerful drama. It's not a documentary and, no doubt, there will be inaccuracies but I hope it contributes to an understanding of the consequences of the disaster, the injustices that followed and the long-term impact on so many people's lives. The players who died were part of a really talented team. Other than that, I have nothing to add to the final paragraphs of my initial post.
« Last Edit: April 25, 2011, 01:34:03 am by PhilScraton »
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Offline SpartanTree. No deccies or lights.

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #108 on: April 29, 2011, 07:08:05 pm »
Excellent post.

Does anyone know if the drama about the incident is being repeated on any of the BBC channels ?

RIP Munich '58.
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Offline kopiteinexileinburnley

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #109 on: April 29, 2011, 08:31:19 pm »
I never liked the "Munich" chants, it showed a side of our support that was ugly - but having just read the OP I've learnt an awful lot more about events and shows how we should have far more in common. As much as I always want to beat them down the East Lancs, I hope that more of our respective tragedies becomes knowledge on both sides. And then our disagreements can be over football and nothing more.

RIP

Offline mattsant

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #110 on: April 29, 2011, 10:01:34 pm »
still need to watch this programme

Offline rusty-la

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #111 on: April 29, 2011, 10:29:51 pm »
Probably worth a bump - Ive just been sent the link after watching 'united' on bbc2 and personally ive learnt a few things from the OP that a lot on here now might not have seen

Deffo' worth the bump

Any Reds that laugh at Munich are fkn nobs. The type that would be offended over Hillsborough chants.

Just don't do it.

Off topic, reading Shanlyboys post reminded me why I miss  the fella so much.

Offline vicgill

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #112 on: April 29, 2011, 11:02:48 pm »
february 8th 1958, I was 14yrs and 4 months old and a trainee at Liverpool FC. I cried myself to sleep on the night the accident was anounced on the news. Great footballers killed and one of my heroes Duncan Edwards seriously injured in hospital, I have never been really religious but I prayed every night that he would make it and when the news finally came through that he died, again I cried myself to sleep.

Manchester United received many offers of help from other clubs, if i remember rightly Aston Villa loaned them Vic Crowe, Blackpool loaned them Ernie Taylor, Stan Crowther was another loanee, these are just three of the players and clubs I remember, I am sure there were many more, Manchester went on to reach the final of the FA Cup that same year only to lose- 2-0 to Bolton Wanderers.

RIP ......YNWA
« Last Edit: April 29, 2011, 11:04:28 pm by vicgill »
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Offline koptommy93

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #113 on: April 30, 2011, 06:27:32 pm »
I don't understand how some of our so called fans could be so cruel in the face of such tragedy. Disaster's such as Munich and Hillsborough should transcent footballing allegiance.

RIP Munich 1958 YNWA
I for one welcome our new insect overloads

Offline BobbyDavro

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #114 on: May 1, 2011, 02:18:39 pm »
 I tell you now, that all that would be needed was for us to stop singing Munich and to make some gesure on the anniversary of the disaster.
Instantly, the whole murderers bollocks and Hillsborough chanting would stop.

Or, we could foam at the mouth and jump up and down and let everything carry on as it is now.

Offline DougLFC94

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #115 on: May 1, 2011, 07:54:06 pm »
Still tet to watch United, Isit on iPlayer?

Offline phil_1010

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #116 on: May 1, 2011, 07:56:46 pm »

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #118 on: May 2, 2011, 03:37:39 am »
I don't understand how some of our so called fans could be so cruel in the face of such tragedy. Disaster's such as Munich and Hillsborough should transcent footballing allegiance.

RIP Munich 1958 YNWA

This.  :'(
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Offline brenh

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Re: Munich 1958
« Reply #119 on: May 2, 2011, 12:17:11 pm »
I tell you now, that all that would be needed was for us to stop singing Munich and to make some gesure on the anniversary of the disaster.
Instantly, the whole murderers bollocks and Hillsborough chanting would stop.

Or, we could foam at the mouth and jump up and down and let everything carry on as it is now.

it would never stop from them scabs ever i never have agreed to sing munich songs and never