Topic: Liverpool 0-2 West Brom - Round Table

[Mr Dilkington]

West Brom without a win in 8, Liverpool coming to the boil after two impressive away performances to Arsenal and Man City. The script was there, but then, when did football ever care about what the script says?

The first half brought about total domination, but we lacked the composure and structure to make anything of it. Second half, things start to open up and you're thinking, "Aye aye, we'll get chances here." By this point, West Brom have yet to register a single shot on goal. Despite things opening up, we still lacked any kind of clarity and quality. Then with 15 to go the referee grants us the get out of jail card we were looking for by awarding a penalty for a (soft) foul on Suarez. Foster has played a blinder, but it's Gerrard, he'll score. He doesn't. And from that moment on, it unravels.

If we were looking scruffy and disjointed before the penalty miss, we looked a lot worse after it. Panic set in, and with West Brom setting loose their barrel chested beast for the last 20, they were always going to carry a threat. Bad marking from a corner, and they go 1-0 up. It was the only way they were going to score, and after that Lukaku got the space he needed and we got punished again.

Questions...

If Skrtel has been dropped because of poor form, do we start the next game with Carragher and Sama at centre back? In all seriousness, Agger was at fault yet again tonight. Are his mistakes born more from a fault in the system, or is it just pure sloppiness on his part?

What the hell happened to Glen Johnson, and was tonight the real Jose Enrique, or just a bad game?

Gerrard and Lucas looked extremely sluggish tonight - a consequence of the Brazil game on Wednesday perhaps? Lucas still looks off to me too, and you do start to wonder whether he'll ever be the same player again. There was one moment in particular when Brunt just ghosted past him, and despite his best efforts, Lucas couldn't get back in to close him down again.

Was Shelvey's performance due to a lack of game time, or a general problem with his game, or both? You can see the potential in him, but there is so many ragged edges on him still. He often got in the way of others tonight, and he was slack off the ball too.

Downing MOTM. After taking a lot of criticism during his time here, a bit of praise due surely?

Suarez had an off night tonight. Dwelt on the ball and ran down dead ends. Nice rabona though.

Given how much he struggled to get into the game, can we rely on Borini as a replacement for Sturridge when he's not available, or do we have to change things around like we did tonight?

[royhendo]

It was deja vu all over again wasn't it? Dominate them, keeper has a great night, squander gilt-edged openings (penalty obviously, but others too), then start looking impatient and expose soft underbelly with errors and lack of power to deal with their ability on the counter. It's nothing new. But man, you'd think it was evidence of our being chronically shite, a week on from folk saying we were gonna get 4th and blah blah blah. We're worth maybe 6th or 7th spot, like we thought at the start of the season. We're growing as a side.

But...

we lacked the composure and structure to make anything of it

I'd start Skrtel and Agger and persist. They're good defenders. But that's me. We play a system that exposes them and that's the one area we need to nail. People call it balance, but it's no longer an issue of balance - Lucas held it firm for a long time tonight. It's concentration.

The full backs struggled but they sat deep and compact and they were well organised, which made it difficult to penetrate.

Shelvey isn't gonna last long-term for me. He'll be upgraded.

Downing did well I thought but again, like Shelvey, long term he'll be upgraded.

Borini needs to assert himself I reckon. It was annoying to feel we missed Sturridge that much.

But mostly, bollocks to missing penalties that would kill the game. That changed everything.

[royhendo]

I'll say it again and again. Unless you let a side and a manager learn and get things right, you'll play snakes and ladders with your progress.

Kenny never got time to get it right. Rodgers will inevitably see his side have off nights, and he'll make mistakes. The hysterical reaction seems to get worse every time there's a negative result from prominent fans. It's high time we knocked it on the head. Hightown Phil is the man to emulate for me. I wish everybody was a little more like Hightown Phil.

[Hinesy]

I said this in the post match whirlpool but it bears repeating.

Johnson was tired, nay knackered and/or distracted. Thinking about the Pope, or the England game, or the trip to Russia, either way he wasn't there in mind.

Gerrard tried too hard at times hence the over kicking and lack of finesse he usually has, later on in the game.

Clarke knows LFC inside out, he was brought in as a tactician and left with all the secrets, so its no surprise he talked us up before the game and then played the way he did. He knew how to play us because we set out the same team as we did against them at the start of the season. One up front, etc etc.

But the goalie did what many many goalies do at Anfield and have the game of their lives. I saw Jasskalinen (sp I know) have an incredible game when he played for Sunderland against us, and I've seen it many times and I'll see if again.

But the biggest thing for me tonight was the line up, it was like we were playing West Brom at the start of the season again. We are a one man team, and that man is Sturridge, because clearly we'd forgotten how to play with one striker, whilst still making all the same errors and game plays as we did til the 2nd striker arrived. Possession, without lots of penetration, and missed chances.

Unlucky not to score, unlucky to face a goalie on Sunny D and 4 packets of Refreshers, but naive not to suspect Clarke knew how to play against the inevitable barrage and naive not to react to Lukaka's substitution. What did we think would happen?

Frustration. But still, even its 2 steps forward, one back, one forward, 4 draws and a step sideways, we're slowly making headway. Slowly mind.

[PhaseOfPlay]

West Brom without a win in 8, Liverpool coming to the boil after two impressive away performances to Arsenal and Man City. The script was there, but then, when did football ever care about what the script says?

The first half brought about total domination, but we lacked the composure and structure to make anything of it. Second half, things start to open up and you're thinking, "Aye aye, we'll get chances here." By this point, West Brom have yet to register a single shot on goal. Despite things opening up, we still lacked any kind of clarity and quality. Then with 15 to go the referee grants us the get out of jail card we were looking for by awarding a penalty for a (soft) foul on Suarez. Foster has played a blinder, but it's Gerrard, he'll score. He doesn't. And from that moment on, it unravels.

If we were looking scruffy and disjointed before the penalty miss, we looked a lot worse after it. Panic set in, and with West Brom setting loose their barrel chested beast for the last 20, they were always going to carry a threat. Bad marking from a corner, and they go 1-0 up. It was the only way they were going to score, and after that Lukaku got the space he needed and we got punished again.

Questions...

If Skrtel has been dropped because of poor form, do we start the next game with Carragher and Sama at centre back? In all seriousness, Agger was at fault yet again tonight. Are his mistakes born more from a fault in the system, or is it just pure sloppiness on his part?

Sloppiness a little. The first goal, he lost his man for, but it was also a good run. McCauley ran across another West Brom player, who stepped into the run and picked off Agger, and that gave McCauley a free header at goal. Delivery good, run good, finish good. But Agger shouldn't have lost his man. Our marking and screening at set-pieces is terrible. It's not just a coaching issue - it's a lack of common sense issue too.

What the hell happened to Glen Johnson, and was tonight the real Jose Enrique, or just a bad game?

Johnson - International football. Same as Gerrard. Why they played 90 minutes in a meaningless friendly is beyond me. Plus, with Hodgson, you know they are doing needless fitness work at the training sessions too. So there is probably a fatigue factor involved.

Enrique - Too flashy. Tried too many complicated things, flicks that were never on, passes he couldn't play, and dribbles that were ineffective. After the news stuff this week about how he agreed with Rodgers criticisms but not the way he did it, he left himself on a ledge with that performance. It was brainless more than effortless. It's not that he didn't work hard, he just didn't work smart.

Gerrard and Lucas looked extremely sluggish tonight - a consequence of the Brazil game on Wednesday perhaps? Lucas still looks off to me too, and you do start to wonder whether he'll ever be the same player again. There was one moment in particular when Brunt just ghosted past him, and despite his best efforts, Lucas couldn't get back in to close him down again.

International football again. Gerrard is not really physically set for midweek friendlies at full speed and then an important league game 5 days later. He has to do a lot more running under Hodgson than he probably does at Liverpool, and his recovery time is greater than it used to be, because of his age.

As for Lucas - he only got a half a game for Brazil, I think? But he is recovering from a bad injury. I don't think he did too badly, but he lost some pace with the knee injury. You'd have to assume some degree of atrophy having been out for so long. As painful as it might be to some fans on a sentimental level, it might be a position that needs looking at sooner rather than later. It could also be that he's not set up to play in an attacking system the way he could play in a compact one under Rafa and Kenny.

Was Shelvey's performance due to a lack of game time, or a general problem with his game, or both? You can see the potential in him, but there is so many ragged edges on him still. He often got in the way of others tonight, and he was slack off the ball too.

He's not a top 4 player. He lacks quickness, vision (possibly literally), timing, concentration and passing technique. He underhit or overhit passes, switched off when a passage of play broke down (hence the offsides), and looks to have a lot of tunnel vision, whereby when he's under pressure, he only sees what's straight in front of him. I don't necessarily think we see potential in him. I think we're seeing the whole package. It won't get much better than this on a consistent enough basis, for me. He had a great chance to make a claim for himself on the team, but I think he failed that audition badly tonight. He seems a nice lad, but challenging for top 4 requires realism, and Rodgers can't bank his job on players who might be good in a few years time. He might have to do some more ruthless pruning in the summer.


Downing MOTM. After taking a lot of criticism during his time here, a bit of praise due surely?

He was excellent. I'm not sure on why he was subbed, but there might be a case for Coutinho providing a bit of magic on his debut, and Downing was tiring because of the work he did. Other than that, though, he was excellent and made a huge contribution.

Suarez had an off night tonight. Dwelt on the ball and ran down dead ends. Nice rabona though.

International football again. It's amazing how when players get fatigued, they regress to their bad habits. "Fatigue makes cowards of us all", as Vince Lombardi once said. He certainly wasn't a coward, but we was very sub-par, and played like the whole result depended on him and him alone.

Given how much he struggled to get into the game, can we rely on Borini as a replacement for Sturridge when he's not available, or do we have to change things around like we did tonight?

Borini has the same issue as Lucas - he's coming back from a bad injury. I'm not sure we should think of him as a goalscoring threat in the way Sturridge and Suarez are - but more like a tireless worker, in the way Kuyt was (or Park Ji-Sung was for United). A good squad addition, but he should be used more from the bench to close a game down rather than to chase a needed goal. That doesn't seem to be his game. Again, though, another one who is probably not top 4 standard, and may need to be a part of any ruthless summer pruning.

I had lovely diagrams at the ready, my notebook, my Excel spreadsheet ready to click the X's and O's, etc. But we didn't lose this game from a tactical standpoint. We lost it through a combination of fatigue, key players performing badly and one tricky substitution (there was a logic to putting Sterling on - we weren't really getting true width on the left side, and so our attacks were dominated by right side play, which made it predictable for WBA. As soon as Sterling came on, our shape and possession changed and became more cohesive. Henderson going off though, and Borini coming on didn't work, and if we just made the one change - Sterling for Shelvey - we might not have conceded any goals. Henderson going off allowed them to go at us more through the middle). So no diagrams for me. It was 80% a player's problem, and maybe 20% a managerial problem. Fatigue and mentality were below standard, and I'm not too worried for the future, but the result was disappointing.

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

Football is all about tiny margins much as those who lurch, like the crew of the Enterprise in a meteor shower, from polar extremes on the whim of each result would tell you otherwise.  Losing at home tonight does not tell you that we're shite any more than winning successive home games convincingly tells you that we are going to finish in the top four.

We pressed well and dominated the game but our passing was sloppy and we were not quite on top of our game as we had been in recent weeks.  Yet, we still had plenty of chances to put the game to bed long before West Brom scored from almost their first foray forwards.

Once that goal was conceded with ten minutes left then 2-0 was always as likely as 1-1. 

[Corkboy]

If Skrtel has been dropped because of poor form, do we start the next game with Carragher and Sama at centre back? In all seriousness, Agger was at fault yet again tonight. Are his mistakes born more from a fault in the system, or is it just pure sloppiness on his part?

He got bullied for the first and was made to look slow and awkward for the second. Gary Neville was right in his analysis. Agger took a chance that Lukaku would turn back inside and shifted his weight. It wasn't a stunning first touch, Agger had already showed him the way. As for his general performance, he didn't have much to do, as Long seemed to target Carragher, and they had nobody else up there. Credit to Clarke for putting Lukaku on, it was a ballsy move.

What the hell happened to Glen Johnson, and was tonight the real Jose Enrique, or just a bad game?

I wouldn't go that far. Neither was at his best but they weren't the problem.

Gerrard and Lucas looked extremely sluggish tonight - a consequence of the Brazil game on Wednesday perhaps? Lucas still looks off to me too, and you do start to wonder whether he'll ever be the same player again.

Nope. Not feeling you there either. I thought they both did fine.

Was Shelvey's performance due to a lack of game time, or a general problem with his game, or both? You can see the potential in him, but there is so many ragged edges on him still. He often got in the way of others tonight, and he was slack off the ball too.

Too often we cast him as a centre forward, or he just ends up there anyway. I don't think he can play anywhere across the top three with any assurance, and I don't think he is anywhere near a mid three berth given the competition. Bit of a misfit right now.

Downing MOTM. After taking a lot of criticism during his time here, a bit of praise due surely?

He did fine. Ben Foster was MOTM, followed fairly closely by Mulumbu, who was outstanding.

Given how much he struggled to get into the game, can we rely on Borini as a replacement for Sturridge when he's not available, or do we have to change things around like we did tonight?

He needs a run, maybe Rodgers will start him during the week.

This game was a perfect wave. We build momentum all through the first half, their keeper is making save after save but there's no way he can keep it up and we come out second half even stronger, and when Lucas starts dispossessing people in the final third with that glorious tackling style, where he cleans out the ball and leaves a little on the man for luck, you think, yes we're in here, this is on.

And then we get a lavishly generous penalty decision and we're cresting the wave as our skipper steps up to the plate, buzzin' and we know what happens now. The goal is already safely tucked under the shirt and thoughts turn to how the Albion will have to come out now and then we'll skewer them. Job done. Game over. Floating on the top of that wave, gravity banished.

And Foster saves. No problem. Resume the surge. But now we're teetering a little on the top of the wave and then they get a corner and whoosh. Freefall. Down we hurtle, scrambling to get hold of water, and now the deft cushioned touch becomes a clunky swipe and where we mopped up before now we're slipping and sliding. Sure as night follows day, we hit the bottom with two thirds of our team out of position and a please do attitude in defence, and Mr Lukaku graciously mashes our faces on the gravel beneath the waves.

I accept that I watched this game and I acknowledge what happened. This is what adults do. I am almost tempered by it. It happens to all teams, even the big ones. We got mugged. We came on strong all night and got kicked in the balls for our trouble. Well done, the Albion.

[royhendo]

Once that goal was conceded with ten minutes left then 2-0 was always as likely as 1-1. 

That's a real gripe of mine - the fact that a lot of folk watching football at the minute just don't seem to understand that basic fact Kev.

[Hazell]

It was deja vu all over again wasn't it? Dominate them, keeper has a great night, squander gilt-edged openings (penalty obviously, but others too), then start looking impatient and expose soft underbelly with errors and lack of power to deal with their ability on the counter. It's nothing new. But man, you'd think it was evidence of our being chronically shite, a week on from folk saying we were gonna get 4th and blah blah blah. We're worth maybe 6th or 7th spot, like we thought at the start of the season. We're growing as a side.

Yeah agree. I don't even think we played that well, our passing was sloppy all over, a number of players had their worst games in a while and we didn't really create as much as we have done at home recently. But we were still on top for the majority of the game and then they score from from virtually their first attack after a lapse by us. That's more the concern for me, the lapses and bad errors we're making at the back. We've generally been fine going forward recently and sometimes we'll get performances like yesterday, where it doesn't click. At the back though, I'm not sure if it's simply concentration, players going through a bad patch or coaching (Agger's lost his man a few times recently). The second goal, I'm not too worried about but the first was just poor from Agger. However, going forward, at least this season, I'd still prefer Agger and Skrtel at the back, I don't think they've been as poor as has been made out.

Still, Henderson and Downing played well, it was one of the latter's best games in a Liverpool shirt and Sterling looked bright when he came on. Overall though, the performance was out of keeping with how we've played generally so hopefully, we'll get back to that against Swansea.

[ashleyrose-66]

Rodgers now has a problem.  Carragher has played well since he came in to the side, but let's not forget, we have conceded 2 goals in each of our last 3 games, and won none of them, losing winning positions in two of them, and also conceding late last night. 
Agger's form has dipped, just as Skrtel's did, and yet, for the last couple of years, they have looked a good centre-back pairing. 
So does Rodgers now leave Carragher out and try to get the Agger/Skrtel partnership working again, which would be unfair to Carragher as he has done nothing to warrant being dropped.  Or does he perhaps bring Skrtel back in and take Agger out of the side?
He has to make a decision, because at the moment, we are not keeping clean sheets and as a result dropping points.

I think Glen Johnson had "one of those nights" last night.  He just seemed to make the wrong decision time-after-time.  When he needed to go outside, he came inside and lost the ball.  When he needed to come inside he went outside and over-ran it.  When he did decide to play the pass, it ended up at the feet of a West Brom player... And so on.  It was about as bad as I can remember seeing Glen play, but I'd like to think it was just a bad night, rather than something to worry about.

Shelvey gets a lot of stick on RAWK, Twitter, in the pub and at the ground.   Some times it's completely justified, but last night I felt a bit sorry for the lad.  I genuinely don't think he actually knew what his position was last night, and without wanting to turn this in to a Rodgers' burning paragraph, it's clear the manager got his selection of that player, in that role, badly wrong last night.
It doesn't mean Shelvey is a bad player.  Far from it.  I think there is a hugely talented footballer in there, but he is 20 years old, and being asked to play in a role that he clearly is not comfortable in.  Was he supposed to lead the line last night?  Was he supposed to drop deep and allow Gerrard to make surging runs in to the box?  I'm not sure he knew what to do.
I suspect the system was flawed last night and not the player.

I said in the pre-match thread that this was a game "on paper" we should expect to win.  However, we have lost a lot of "on paper" games this season, last season and the season before that.  We have all been here so many times in the past lamenting over a result that left us with zero points from a game we have absolutely dominated, it's a problem we have to try to find the solution to, and quickly. 

[Vulmea]

Well I enjoyed the pens at half time especially Robbies trip.

I am still totally bemused by the whole game - bemused in as much as I want to write it off as a freak but unable to because we've had such freak results for years now on a regular basis that the term freak can't really apply can it - can a coin keep coming down on heads -  well yes but there are niggles about the whole thing which suggest something else is wrong.

The idea that Clarke did well is a travesty he took the opportunity  in the last 15 minutes but they were there for the taking, they failed in basically everything and we let ourselves down very badly.

We are light weight both physically and mentally - the goal from the corner ok - they had two giants in their side and a plan to score from a set piece they offered next to nothing in open play until we gave up but their goal did exactly that – we stopped trying – it was unacceptable. Players and manager alike deserve any bit of criticism hurled their way.

Hindsight and  I thought we lost before a ball was kicked – no Sturridge left you thinking what will that do to our fragile mental state - I'm not Desmond Morris but watching the lads warm up didn't inspire me it was - well it was uninspiring - Luis nicked the ball off Gerrard’s toe at one point when they were doing the drill  where the coach lays it off player on the edge of the box, who whacks it against the post ( we must have hit the woodwork 8 or 9 times in that drill alone) - anyway Luis nicks it – Stevie’s run and shot are spoiled and instead of a laugh and a giggle its angry faces, finger pointing and apologies - that wasn't good - Mike Marsh does a little juggle and instead of laying it along the turf he chips it up for Sterling to volley - he doesn't volley it, he bottles it and asks for another pass  ... small things but small things that leave you uneasy and thinking crap you shouldn't.

We started slowly, both halves but WBA really aren't very good - we had them there for the taking at the start of the 2nd half they were terrible and we still couldn't score - we missed twice from a yard and yet I never felt we would score - the Penalty you knew Foster would dive long and low, you knew SG had to go high - he didn't and it was saved but by then the feeling in your water already told you even if we scored they'd equalise

Shelvey was shocking and the groans from the crowd added weight to his legs he got worse and worse - he needed support he got none - we are a terrible crowd. I thought Borini needed to come on I was wrong , he was poor, the crowd had to encourage him to run - he was static as were most of our players the whole game but we replaced an ineffective Shelvey with an ineffective Borini

Henderson was brilliant - for me he was running the game - we took him off - was he injured? being saved for Thursday?  I dont know Rogers thinking but it was a poor poor decision. Sterling did his usual flatter to deceive.

But by far the biggest fault was our complete lack of spirit after their goal - 10 minutes to go and we gave up - no fight, no effort no chances - absolutely pathetic - Reina and Suarez looked interested the rest jesus that was bad - maybe that explains these results more than luck - we gave up after one goal totally against the run of play - we played like we would hide if things went wrong - we played like we expected something to happen rather than wanting to make it happen.

I dont remember Foster making any outstanding saves - some decent ones but nothing you wouldn't expect a decent keeper to make

Johnson had his man beaten every time but insisted on cutting back trying to play through the edge of the box - mainly because there was no one to cross to if he  - tactically we looked clueless against a side that was poor

We deserved to concede the second.

Thoroughly cheesed off – systems – schmystems without heart they don’t mean anything

[Veinticinco de Mayo]

And opened to all

[Anywhichwayicant]

I'll keep it brief.

If Skrtel has been dropped because of poor form, do we start the next game with Carragher and Sama at centre back? In all seriousness, Agger was at fault yet again tonight. Are his mistakes born more from a fault in the system, or is it just pure sloppiness on his part?

If anyone wants to see my thoughts on Agger, go into the Skrtel and Agger Partnership thread, they are well documented in there, no need to harp on about it in here.


What the hell happened to Glen Johnson, and was tonight the real Jose Enrique, or just a bad game?

Glen looked as though the missus promised him a bit after the game, and he couldn't wait to get home. I think it was just a bad game for Enrique. His passing was sloppy, but defensively he did some good things.

Gerrard and Lucas looked extremely sluggish tonight - a consequence of the Brazil game on Wednesday perhaps? Lucas still looks off to me too, and you do start to wonder whether he'll ever be the same player again. There was one moment in particular when Brunt just ghosted past him, and despite his best efforts, Lucas couldn't get back in to close him down again.

I thought Lucas began the game well, but as it progressed, became more of a passenger. Gerrard looked like a 32 year, who has played every minute of 26 league games this season. I'd like to ask Brendan why a fresh, 22 year old Henderson, was hauled off, while both Gerrard and Lucas remained on.

Was Shelvey's performance due to a lack of game time, or a general problem with his game, or both? You can see the potential in him, but there is so many ragged edges on him still. He often got in the way of others tonight, and he was slack off the ball too.

I've said before, I can't understand the hype around Shelvey, but he's a 20 year old bit-part player, trying to find his way. I don't think he'll ever be the star many think he will be, but criticism of him last night was unfair and unbalanced.

Downing MOTM. After taking a lot of criticism during his time here, a bit of praise due surely?

Probably been the pick of our players since the beginning of December. Last night, I thought Foster was MOTM, followed by Mulumbu.


Given how much he struggled to get into the game, can we rely on Borini as a replacement for Sturridge when he's not available, or do we have to change things around like we did tonight?

We have him here, and paid substantially for it, we need to persist with him.

[murdell]

If Skrtel has been dropped because of poor form, do we start the next game with Carragher and Sama at centre back? In all seriousness, Agger was at fault yet again tonight. Are his mistakes born more from a fault in the system, or is it just pure sloppiness on his part?

Concentration I would put it down to with Agger.


What the hell happened to Glen Johnson, and was tonight the real Jose Enrique, or just a bad game?

Johnson has been fantastic this season and I think we can put this one down to the odd game most players of his caliber will have once in a blue moon. Enrique for me is poor in possession and I would like to think we can improve on him in the Summer.


Gerrard and Lucas looked extremely sluggish tonight - a consequence of the Brazil game on Wednesday perhaps? Lucas still looks off to me too, and you do start to wonder whether he'll ever be the same player again.

I think you may be right, Lucas seems to have lost a yard of pace. I thought Gerrard gave a below par performance for his standards, but the whole team were sloppy in possession throughout.

Was Shelvey's performance due to a lack of game time, or a general problem with his game, or both? You can see the potential in him, but there is so many ragged edges on him still. He often got in the way of others tonight, and he was slack off the ball too.

Shelvey has obvious talent but I wouldn't have him in my side as an attacking midfielder. It's purely tactical, I don't think he has the mobility or speed of thought to play attacking midfield and I am not sure these are attributes that can be improved on.

Downing MOTM. After taking a lot of criticism during his time here, a bit of praise due surely?

He had a good game but again, like Enrique, you feel we can upgrade here too. However, I would like to keep him as a squad player because he can be very useful in that kind of role. His wages may well decide his fate though.

Given how much he struggled to get into the game, can we rely on Borini as a replacement for Sturridge when he's not available, or do we have to change things around like we did tonight?

Borini looks to me like a player that will need a very good set up around him. He doesn't look like one who can conjure up something all by himself. I think he has to lead the line when Sturridge is unavailable because Suarez drifts out of the box too much to spearhead an attack. We lose that presence in the box.

[dublindan]

A team's star striker doesn't bring his shooting boots and the only other decent striker is injured, they're always going to struggle to get anything out of the game.

Add to that the opposition keeper playing a blinder.

[El Lobo]

Anyone think we looked at the results at the weekend, with Spurs and Arsenal winning tough games, and thought 'Ahh fuck it thats definitely 4th gone' and that contributed to the lack of any real spark?

We're too easily defeated. Easy to say I know, and I don't think we can blame the manager. Under Ged in the later years we rarely came from behind to win. In fact the only time in recent memory I can remember a good amount of comebacks was 08/09 under Rafa.

[PhaseOfPlay]

(snip)

Gerrard and Lucas looked extremely sluggish tonight - a consequence of the Brazil game on Wednesday perhaps? Lucas still looks off to me too, and you do start to wonder whether he'll ever be the same player again. There was one moment in particular when Brunt just ghosted past him, and despite his best efforts, Lucas couldn't get back in to close him down again.

I thought Lucas began the game well, but as it progressed, became more of a passenger. Gerrard looked like a 32 year, who has played every minute of 26 league games this season. I'd like to ask Brendan why a fresh, 22 year old Henderson, was hauled off, while both Gerrard and Lucas remained on.

(snip)

You have to go through the thought process.

WBA were playing compact and disciplined, and we weren't scoring from our shots.

Lucas was the anchor in front of the defence. Removing him would have opened a space up in front of Agger and Carragher. As soon as Lucas went off, Lukaku would have been thrown on, and the damage could have been worse.

Gerrard is both the captain and a goalscoring threat. Taking the captain off sends the wrong message to the team, and a positive one to the opposition. Also, his potential to score goals keeps WBA on their toes.

Shelvey wasn't playing well at all, but we needed someone up front with Suarez, otherwise there would be no depth to the attack when Suarez moved out of that zone

Downing was having a man of the match performance

Henderson was playing very well and had energy, but isn't a real goalscoring threat.

We had no width on the left side, and we needed support in the centre forward position for Suarez. Borini was a replacement for Shelvey. That was the solution to the support up front problem. We needed width on the left though, as our attacks were too predictably coming down the right and were easy to defend from that side. So we needed to get somebody onto that side of the field.

Lucas - midfield anchor; we can't take him off or it would compromise our defence more than necessary at that stage of the game

Gerrard - captain and goalscoring threat; we can't take him off for both of those reasons

Downing - best Liverpool player on the field on the night, and attacks were filtering through him.

That left Henderson. As good as he was, he was the only logical choice for the shape we were playing, in order to get some width on the left and stretch the West Brom defence a little more than they were. Our possession became more constructive after that change, I think, and Sterling helped us to move the ball a lot more fluidly, but the goal from the corner meant we had to go for broke just to get the equalizer, and that exposed us to the counter for the second.

[Paul JH]

In all seriousness, Agger was at fault yet again tonight.

I'm glad this question has been asked, because for me, I think he's been at fault a lot this season, either his marking, concentration or whatever. Agger is one of these players who tends to get a lot of people saying how great a defender he is, because he can play football, and likes to come forward with the ball. But his defending lately, and a fair few times for me, has been awful. Switches off, terrible marking, whatever, but either he needs to be more alert or there is something wrong with the way we are defending as a team.

[redk84]

A mental fragility which has gone on for almost two complete seasons has seen us witness many performances last night.

The lack of composure in front of goal and the quick surrender once we go behind, in what started at the beginning of last season as what i thought of as a freak run of form which would gradually change has become somewhat of a nightmare at times.

I still believe performances like last night are gradually becoming less frequent...but it truly is the worst way to lose when you look so much like winning for the most part of the game.

Work in progress indeed. The rest of this season and definitely the main objective for next season is to fuck off these "moral victories" and battering teams to draw or lose.....and to just win. Just do what it takes to win. There's work to do but we can get there.

[redmark]

If Skrtel has been dropped because of poor form, do we start the next game with Carragher and Sama at centre back? In all seriousness, Agger was at fault yet again tonight. Are his mistakes born more from a fault in the system, or is it just pure sloppiness on his part?

Hinesy said Clarke knows us inside out; I wonder if he timed the introduction of Lukaku - who seemed to target Agger - just right; frustration in players and crowd, Agger getting forward more and perhaps losing focus when he is back in position defensively. I have some affinity with the (minority) view that we, at times, over-rate Agger defensively, due to his ability on the ball.


What the hell happened to Glen Johnson, and was tonight the real Jose Enrique, or just a bad game?

You wait all season for a truly dreadful fullback performance, and two come along at once! Unfortunately, that was probably something we'll see several times a season from Enrique. I wouldn't expect to see so poor an offensive performance from Johnson in the rest of his career...


Gerrard and Lucas looked extremely sluggish tonight - a consequence of the Brazil game on Wednesday perhaps? Lucas still looks off to me too, and you do start to wonder whether he'll ever be the same player again. There was one moment in particular when Brunt just ghosted past him, and despite his best efforts, Lucas couldn't get back in to close him down again.

As PoP hints at, if Lucas is to have a place in a more fluid offensive Liverpool under Rodgers, he needs to play his simple game quickly, with good passing tempo and near flawless 'mopping up'. The DM purists will implode, but a game or two seeing Gerrard sitting behind a pair like Henderson and Allen (or Shelvey) would be interesting.


Was Shelvey's performance due to a lack of game time, or a general problem with his game, or both? You can see the potential in him, but there is so many ragged edges on him still. He often got in the way of others tonight, and he was slack off the ball too.

I felt a little sympathy for Shelvey. Not his position, but he tried to keep things simple and not overdo it; laying the ball off, passing and moving quite well at times - but as we lost possession regularly, he never saw it twice in the same move. There are some very rough edges on him, but they're not going to be smoothed playing off the striker.


Downing MOTM. After taking a lot of criticism during his time here, a bit of praise due surely?

It's interesting to see many posters bemoan, again, our mental strength, yet not account for our supposed 'mentally weakest' player being our best player on the night.


Suarez had an off night tonight. Dwelt on the ball and ran down dead ends. Nice rabona though.

Poor. But off the back of a run of form better than anything we've seen in two years, and few players in Europe can match, we've suddenly changed his role three times in three games and brought his confidence and form to a grinding halt. Coincidence?


Given how much he struggled to get into the game, can we rely on Borini as a replacement for Sturridge when he's not available, or do we have to change things around like we did tonight?

I don't know, but it would have been fairer to assess after starting him in the role, than bringing him into a tense and failing situation as we did.

[Crackerjack Sam]

Anyone think we looked at the results at the weekend, with Spurs and Arsenal winning tough games, and thought 'Ahh fuck it thats definitely 4th gone' and that contributed to the lack of any real spark?

We're too easily defeated. Easy to say I know, and I don't think we can blame the manager. Under Ged in the later years we rarely came from behind to win. In fact the only time in recent memory I can remember a good amount of comebacks was 08/09 under Rafa.

I thought the opposite. I really thought we'd win yesterday. The results didn't throw me because it's up to us to get the results we need to get that spot and we still have to play Spurs and Chelsea.

After the result yesterday, we have a snowball's chance in hell to get 4th.

Rodgers needs another season because he won't achieve a damn thing in this one.

[The G in Gerrard]

Was Shelvey's performance due to a lack of game time, or a general problem with his game, or both? You can see the potential in him, but there is so many ragged edges on him still. He often got in the way of others tonight, and he was slack off the ball too.

Downing MOTM. After taking a lot of criticism during his time here, a bit of praise due surely?

Suarez had an off night tonight. Dwelt on the ball and ran down dead ends. Nice rabona though.

Given how much he struggled to get into the game, can we rely on Borini as a replacement for Sturridge when he's not available, or do we have to change things around like we did tonight?

Some quick points. Shelvey looked like a player who hasn't played regularly. I still think long term Downing isn't good enough and I don't think anyone was outstanding for us last night. We were competent and should have won.

Think your being far too harsh on Borini. He didn't start the game. He had a tiny cameo and often made runs forward and never got it.

I don't see the point in playing Carragher and Agger as a centreback partnership now if we are to build for next season.

[Crackerjack Sam]

I don't see the point in playing Carragher and Agger as a centreback partnership now if we are to build for next season.

Sentiment

[LucasLeiva]

Missed Sturridge for goalscoring, we created a lot of chances, perhaps unfortunate not to score any of them.
Shelvey clearly has the ability but his attitude isn't great at the minute. He will come good but needs to sort his head out.
Borini is also one who has the ability, he always comes close to scoring but never quite does it.
Hopefully Sturridge is back next game, if not I think Borini and Coutinho could feature because Downing isn't a good enough goal threat and Shelvey was poor last night so others should get the chance.

Agger needs to sort himself out, been at fault for about 4/5 out of the last 6 goals we've conceded

[Vulmea]

Exactly what did Downing do to be our best player on the night?

Did he ratchet up our goal and assists total? Did he make use of the acres of space he was presented with?

Please explain I was there , I watched the game with some interest, I saw Downing was playing but what did he actually do to merit the tag?

[swordfishtrombone]

That left Henderson. As good as he was, he was the only logical choice for the shape we were playing, in order to get some width on the left and stretch the West Brom defence a little more than they were. Our possession became more constructive after that change, I think, and Sterling helped us to move the ball a lot more fluidly, but the goal from the corner meant we had to go for broke just to get the equalizer, and that exposed us to the counter for the second.

It also left Enrique as a possible withdrawal, with Johnson moving to his position and Henderson playing from right back. That would have been a muh better change for me.

[Greyfox]

If Skrtel has been dropped because of poor form, do we start the next game with Carragher and Sama at centre back? In all seriousness, Agger was at fault yet again tonight. Are his mistakes born more from a fault in the system, or is it just pure sloppiness on his part?
Agger, lack of concentration, yes…but also a certain naivety. He got blocked off by Olsson as he used one of his “dark arts” for their first goal, (and out foxed by RVP at Old Trafford too with the “step in, then out” routine…) He is a very good footballer, but his main job is to defend and be a destroyer, that bit sometimes seems to get a bit lost. The emphasis on the “footballer” bit is to do with playing out from the back, and as such,  the system and a “flaw” (in the most moderate of terms) …somehow this seems to be negating the “defender” bit.
Carragher’s years mean his pace is now faded, and I don’t know enough of Sama to comment…but is/was Skrtel’s form really that bad to warrant the dropping?

What the hell happened to Glen Johnson, and was tonight the real Jose Enrique, or just a bad game?

Johnson looked like he had a niggle that he wasn’t letting on about to me…and I did attend the match. Just the way he sort of ran on for the second half, the running action itself, just seemed odd, and the way he took the ball that Bishop had put into the Anfield Road net, and did some foot to foot passes with it prior to kick off, almost as if he was convincing himself he was firing on all cylinders.
Enrique, raging bull or loon..?? Poor in possession and massively frustrating in that he was having one of his “turn inside” days…but then again, when he doesn’t turn inside, he can’t seem to cross a ball. 

Gerrard and Lucas looked extremely sluggish tonight - a consequence of the Brazil game on Wednesday perhaps? Lucas still looks off to me too, and you do start to wonder whether he'll ever be the same player again.

Lucas seemed to have get better in the second half to me, and I think Gerrard and he gave flashes, but seemed to suffer from international duty in the week and  were sloppy in possession bdue to tiredness of thought , as did Luis BTW.

Was Shelvey's performance due to a lack of game time, or a general problem with his game, or both? You can see the potential in him, but there is so many ragged edges on him still. He often got in the way of others tonight, and he was slack off the ball too.

I can’t see Shelvey’s obvious talent, he is often a buil in a china shop, and seems to have little first touch a la Dirky. Rumours of a proto Gerrard are just that, rumours.

Downing MOTM. After taking a lot of criticism during his time here, a bit of praise due surely?

Downing was indeed decent, and was possibly our MOTM. Henderson did well too, perhaps a bit of north eastern grit that others lacked for once.

Given how much he struggled to get into the game, can we rely on Borini as a replacement for Sturridge when he's not available, or do we have to change things around like we did tonight?

No…leave Luis as the point but have Sterling/Coutiniho as his foils and suppliers...particularly at big central defenders like WBA who hate being ran at with pace and trickery. When Sturridge is available, plays with Luis, and Sterling/Phillippe as wide attacker too…Downing maybe to full back, Henderson as the legs in the middle with SG and Lucas.

[redmark]

It also left Enrique as a possible withdrawal, with Johnson moving to his position and Henderson playing from right back. That would have been a muh better change for me.

Or 3 at the back, remove both Johnson and Enrique, drop Lucas into the back three, bring on Sterling (for example) and Borini.

Borini
Suarez
Downing   Henderson   Shelvey   Sterling
Gerrard
Agger   Carragher   Lucas

etc. In short, there were options. And one good rule for substitutions should be to withdraw those playing poorly, rather than those playing (relatively) well.

[Eeyore]

Football is all about tiny margins much as those who lurch, like the crew of the Enterprise in a meteor shower, from polar extremes on the whim of each result would tell you otherwise.  Losing at home tonight does not tell you that we're shite any more than winning successive home games convincingly tells you that we are going to finish in the top four.

We pressed well and dominated the game but our passing was sloppy and we were not quite on top of our game as we had been in recent weeks.  Yet, we still had plenty of chances to put the game to bed long before West Brom scored from almost their first foray forwards.

Once that goal was conceded with ten minutes left then 2-0 was always as likely as 1-1. 

Isn't that what separates the ordinary from the exceptional though Kev that ability to identify those small margins the key moments of a game and the ruthlessness to exploit those opportunities. Last night for me there were three key moments Borini's chance, Gerrard's penalty and the corner after Reina has made a great save. We were like Andy Murray of a couple of years ago there was almost a resignation about it, we didn't look confident of dealing with the moment.

The exceptional players and exceptional teams grow into the moment and raise their game accordingly. The team knew the importance of the moment, WBA knew the importance of the moment and so did the crowd but there was an inevitability about it. We accept it is going to be one of those nights far too easily and crumble when the opportunities to display a killer instinct arrive.

Whilst that continues nights like last night will continue to occur. We have a remarkable aptitude for snatching defeat from the jaws of victory, as the last three games have shown. It's not the manager that needs changing it is the mentality. 

[Teamboca]

Cannot believe how much we missed Sturridge this game.

I also believe the game would've could've been completely different had shelvey not been offsides on the goal, remember that was a glen Johnson strike that was rebounded.
Not to mention gerrards missed PK.

Yes we had a bad game, but great teams can beat out teams with a bad game, hard to accept we arnt a great team.. Hardly even a good team unfortunately.

[Quaid]

I wasn't to surprised to see Henderson taken off; he's played a lot of matches recently, given 100% each time, and is going to play 2 more within the next 6 days.

Downing for me was the big disappointment. He was having a superb game, and looked dangerous and creative every time he got the ball. On top of that, both of their full backs were booked, so with the remaining 10 minutes (plus 5 stoppage) he really could have tested their full-backs.

[redmark]

Last night for me there were three key moments Borini's chance, Gerrard's penalty and the corner after Reina has made a great save. We were like Andy Murray of a couple of years ago there was almost a resignation about it, we didn't look confident of dealing with the moment.

I thought we had that lacklustre mindset from the start, but if we're looking at key moments, Foster's earlier save from Gerrard (which was a poor effort at the centre of goal, but a stunning save given he was going the wrong way) may have been the one that had the bigger mental impact.

[Rohit]

Exactly what did Downing do to be our best player on the night?

Did he ratchet up our goal and assists total? Did he make use of the acres of space he was presented with?

Please explain I was there , I watched the game with some interest, I saw Downing was playing but what did he actually do to merit the tag?

That's very interesting point to be honest. He saw alot of the ball and was always open but he didn't do much damage for me. Its the pennant in athens scenario where he also saw alot of the ball but had little to no end product the whole match.

Downings overall game was good but he needs to adding more cutting edge to his game.

[Crosby Nick]

This result has really bugged me, more than almost all our other defats combined. Generally I am quite accepting when we lose, more than a lot on here. I understand we're still developing and that patience is required. Last night was a game we had to win, a game we certainly should have won but once again we're left bemoaning luck/fragility/whatever else it was that stopped us from winning, let alone losing. There's only so many times you can ask those questions without going crazy!

We didn't play very well with several below par individual performnaces yet we still created enough decent chances (and the penalty) to have eked out the win. Our football wasn't great but to take an isolated example, the move in the first half that started with Enrique doing his raging bull act (twice), two or three first times passes, a crossfield switch, Downing skinning his full back and whipping in a dangerous cross was exceptional. Had we scored that we'd have been purring. Same with the other chances we really should have taken.

Had we done so we'd be sitting talking about routine home wins, our good recent home form, the chance of catching 4th. As it is we're once again questioning the mental strength of this group, the poor set piece defending, the lack of ruthlessness.

We're a strange old team at the moment, and have been for a while now. I so want to believe we're moving forward and will get there but for every step or two forward, we're taking one back. At times it feels like we're destined to be like this forever. We can still finish the season strongly, we can certainly still catch Everton  and then go from there but I have to say I'm not relishing a match against a bogey team next weekend.

[robgomm]

I thought our passing wasn't up to scratch to be honest, we've moved it a lot better recently. The game felt like one to be wary of with their need for a result and Clarke with perhaps something to prove. But we set up in such a way that we didn't help any of that. Was disappointed to see Shelve in there, mainly because it didn't suit the balance of the team.

We needed a first half goal and we didn't get it. It was much more like last season or like Villa and underlines our two problems:

1) That we still aren't there yet in terms of what Rodgers wants to do and that our squad isn't good enough yet.

2) That if we don't score we can't rely on the defence to hold firm.

The first he can do little about now, only progress with each window. The latter needs attention now.

[gerrardlfc]

The result yesterday really got to me, still can't understand how we lost that game . Considering our performance vs Arse and City i thought this was the time the team was really going to push on. Tiredness may have played apart, i'm not really sure but to be honest we didn't really create that many clear cut chances. The truth is we've played West Brom twice and lost 5-0 on aggregate over the two games, now there has to be a problem somewhere because we haven't beaten a team in the top half all season which to be honest is disgraceful. At the moment we are a mid table team and our results against the teams in the top half show this.

[Anywhichwayicant]

You have to go through the thought process.

WBA were playing compact and disciplined, and we weren't scoring from our shots.

Lucas was the anchor in front of the defence. Removing him would have opened a space up in front of Agger and Carragher. As soon as Lucas went off, Lukaku would have been thrown on, and the damage could have been worse.

Gerrard is both the captain and a goalscoring threat. Taking the captain off sends the wrong message to the team, and a positive one to the opposition. Also, his potential to score goals keeps WBA on their toes.

Shelvey wasn't playing well at all, but we needed someone up front with Suarez, otherwise there would be no depth to the attack when Suarez moved out of that zone

Downing was having a man of the match performance

Henderson was playing very well and had energy, but isn't a real goalscoring threat.

We had no width on the left side, and we needed support in the centre forward position for Suarez. Borini was a replacement for Shelvey. That was the solution to the support up front problem. We needed width on the left though, as our attacks were too predictably coming down the right and were easy to defend from that side. So we needed to get somebody onto that side of the field.

Lucas - midfield anchor; we can't take him off or it would compromise our defence more than necessary at that stage of the game

Gerrard - captain and goalscoring threat; we can't take him off for both of those reasons

Downing - best Liverpool player on the field on the night, and attacks were filtering through him.

That left Henderson. As good as he was, he was the only logical choice for the shape we were playing, in order to get some width on the left and stretch the West Brom defence a little more than they were. Our possession became more constructive after that change, I think, and Sterling helped us to move the ball a lot more fluidly, but the goal from the corner meant we had to go for broke just to get the equalizer, and that exposed us to the counter for the second.

I've pondered all that mate, and I understand that line of thinking, but neither Lucas, Gerrard nor Suarez were having good nights. Henderson and Downing were having better games, and both were removed.

I think taking Henderson off was the easy way out, a less glamorous name. Time after time, when Henderson isn't on the field, we fall apart, and it happened again last night.

[PhaseOfPlay]

It also left Enrique as a possible withdrawal, with Johnson moving to his position and Henderson playing from right back. That would have been a muh better change for me.

I agree, and that's the change I was hoping would be made when the boards went up. Maybe even Downing as left wingback and keep the midfield three in place, and put Skrtel on as a safety measure for the last 15 minutes. But that's splitting hairs. I thought we could go three at the back, press with 5 in midfield, and get someone close to Suarez (Borini OR Sterling) to share the work and add some threat to the WBA central defence. If we were intent on keeping our shape though, and not losing Enrique's defending at left back, then Henderson was the logical (but not the overwhelmingly CLEAR) choice. Enrique's issues were on the ball, rather than in defence, for me. He tried to complicate things rather than simplify. He'd have almost been better just playing long passes all night, for all the times he lost it with a bad pass or dribble. The same for Johnson - his problem was in attack, rather than defence, because he really didn't have much to do when we lost the ball.

[PhaseOfPlay]

I've pondered all that mate, and I understand that line of thinking, but neither Lucas, Gerrard nor Suarez were having good nights. Henderson and Downing were having better games, and both were removed.

I think taking Henderson off was the easy way out, a less glamorous name. Time after time, when Henderson isn't on the field, we fall apart, and it happened again last night.

I'm not saying that the decision wasn't "Wrong", and I agree with what you and others are saying. I'm just explaining that there is an internal "logic" to these decisions, and it's far easier for us on the outside to say "I don't understand that" or "I would have done this", without first going through what the manager is thinking. Before the subs were made, Rodgers was in deep conversation with Pascoe and Marsh. I'm pretty certain it wasn't an off-the-cuff decision, and they thought it was the best decision they could have made at the time to change the game in our favour in terms of scoring that much-needed opening goal.

[itsgunnabebarnes!]

"All over them" is just an excuse, I'd argue being all over a team and not scoring is poor attacking play. Last night showed that with Suarez being quiet we still struggle to break teams down.

Shelvey has the touch of an oxe and in honesty does not have quick enough feet to be playing the role he did especially the way we play.  To add to this his inclusion shoved Henderson into a foreign position. Major fuck up Rodgers. There was no flow to our play, and two of our better attacking players Suarez and Johnson had average games at best.

The defenders we have give any team a chance of a goal as witnessed last night and recently at Oldham. The reason... Quite simply our defenders dont do the basics right. Whether its Agger who is incapable of marking, skrtel getting bossed by a journeyman striker or Johnson falling asleep at a back post.

These things should not happen to good players. Simple things that happen too often. That says to me not good enough. Two centrebacks are a must in the summer. Coates really should get a run or wisdom there as Agger needs dropping.