Author Topic: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.  (Read 44059 times)

Offline millsymate

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #120 on: January 2, 2009, 11:01:50 pm »
I don't want to be too negative towards Babel.  The first time I watched him was in the under 21 Euros. Many on here hailed him from that performance.   Where he played more as a striker. 

I thought his performances were very a ordinary.

The one lad who stood out was Drenthe.

And, look how that turned out  8)


yeah i thought drenthe stood out.

Then again, I guess the jury is still out on the both of them.

Offline Need_a_bevvy

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #121 on: January 2, 2009, 11:05:11 pm »
Rafa is on record as saying that sliding tackles are the very last resort.  He doesn't like them as they take the tackling player out of the game and the occassions when they should be used are rare.

So I wouldn't draw the "soft" conclusion from that.

That is interesting.

I have to admit as a fan - There are few more exiting things in the defensive game, than to see a perfectely executed slide tackle where the tackling player ends up rising up with the ball at his feet.  :D

Though, I loved it against PSV how Lucas just kept nicking the ball away, and taking control.

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Offline Need_a_bevvy

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #122 on: January 2, 2009, 11:08:16 pm »
Thanks for replies folks. There's a lot to chew on there, but I'll pick out one or two points.

Mark Walters - agree with you completely that young players, like any workers, have to feel their way into a group containing dominant personalities. It can be hard. I don't know whether yours was an implied criticism of Gerrard's captaincy, but certainly I'd criticise it. Some of his body language is bloody awful, or at least it was. It's part of his job to fill young players with confidence. Not bitch at them when things go wrong. Having said that Lucas is clearly part of the club now. And Babel - interestingly - never got any crap from Gerrard.

<snip>
   

I think I remember an episode from last season where both Carra and Gerrard visibly shook their heads in disbelief when Lucas was brought on.   

As much as I love the both of them, that was not on.

Anyhow, great OP.

Always love your posts Yorkie.
« Last Edit: January 2, 2009, 11:54:29 pm by Need_a_bevvy »
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Offline Need_a_bevvy

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #123 on: January 2, 2009, 11:18:46 pm »
I would have loved to have seen the opinions on here a few months ago when Babel was ripping Chelsea & Utd apart while Lucas was looking a lost soul. A great game against relegation fodder like Newcastle and the tide has turned on the opinions. Guess it shows how fickle the couch fans can be.



I think some people, in their experience, have always seen the
Well put Gnurglan as I struggle to see how Lucas will ever get regular starts ahead of Alonso, Mascherano and SG. The lad is best suited for the hole beteen CM and Torres as that is where his talents will shine the best but him or SG? No contest and anyone that wants to play all 4 regularly is kidding themselves .....4 CMs in our lineup should occur as often as rednose should get addressed Sir.

Babel on the otherhand just has the likes of Riera as competition so should get more chance to shine. As I said before we could have started a thread several months ago on "What Babel brings to the team...wheres Lucas?" . Funny old game...football and it's fan's opinions. I still remember the few games we had this season that was crying out for a quick creative force to come on and while its great to just review Lucas on his one or two excellent games recently, the big picture demands a Babel or his future similar replacement to come on when we are chasing games rather than a central midfielder.

The thing is.

I guess many "Lucas supporters" saw already against Tolouse last year that there is a special talent there.

Even though he did not stand out in that game.   

He did all the little things right.

I guess as a former player.   I just really enjoy to see every little basic thing done right.

And, that was in his debut.
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Offline liverpoolfcmike

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #124 on: January 2, 2009, 11:20:27 pm »
Very good read yorky. I completely agree on both Lucas and Babel.

I've always maintained my position as a supporter of Lucas and have always hoped he would prove his doubters wrong, which is why i felt the Fulham game, where he was booed so cynically by some of our fans, was so important. His reaction could potentially have made or broken his early career. My concerns, however, were proved unfounded and we soon found Lucas in true 'russian doll' style bouncing straight back from adversity and has begun to show his true worth to those whom may otherwise have been blind to.
What will certainly stand Lucas in good stead is his movement off the ball and intelligence. These attributes are perfect for playing alongside such players as Gerrard and Alonso who have the ability to pick out a brilliant pass, and indeed thrive on it.
One thing that has surprised me recently is Lucas' tenacity in the air and in the tackle. Over the last year-or-so Lucas has shown vast improvement in his physical game, which is crucial to whether he will stand up to the test of the Premier League.
I'm glad my support in Lucas has been proven lately, and hope he continues to meet and maybe even surpass my expectations of him.

Babel, however, has always been a curious player. One with mercurial ability, showcasing sporadical moments of genius, coupled with the occasional "schoolboy error" which some may feel ought to have been ironed out by now.
I do feel however, that his sheer natural ability will be the deciding factor and that he should be able to build his game around that. This is what Rafa is indeed trying to do in my opinion, however this may take longer than many of us hope.
Babel is indeed a fine wine, hopefully a vintage one at that. I wish him success at our club and hope Rafa and his staff can turn this prodigal son into a footballing force.

Offline Need_a_bevvy

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #125 on: January 2, 2009, 11:20:57 pm »
He actually done it a couple of times. But the one to Carra, I forget the game was a disgrace. Just as disapointing was Carra's expression and how he turned away.

Yeah.

That was dissapointing from the two players I arguable admire the most.
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Offline Need_a_bevvy

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #126 on: January 2, 2009, 11:25:32 pm »
Mimi.

If I recall correctly.

Lucas played with Masch against PSV, Newcastle and Inter (both legs)

Case closed?
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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #127 on: January 3, 2009, 09:19:38 am »
I don't want to be too negative towards Babel.  The first time I watched him was in the under 21 Euros. Many on here hailed him from that performance.   Where he played more as a striker. 

I thought his performances were very a ordinary.

The one lad who stood out was Drenthe.

And, look how that turned out  8)

Then again, I guess the jury is still out on the both of them.


just watched the highlights of the under 21 world cup and I have to say what are you going on about? virtually everything goes through babel, he creates goals and makes goals if I'd never heard of babel and drenthe I definately would have gone for babel on the strenght of what I saw. opinions eh?

Offline Need_a_bevvy

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #128 on: January 3, 2009, 10:17:58 am »

just watched the highlights of the under 21 world cup and I have to say what are you going on about? virtually everything goes through babel, he creates goals and makes goals if I'd never heard of babel and drenthe I definately would have gone for babel on the strenght of what I saw. opinions eh?

That is the beauty of football  ;)

My opinions are not worth much though. So I defer to wiser people than me.

Like Rafa.

I am happy to sing and shout  ;D

Cheers.
« Last Edit: January 3, 2009, 10:20:03 am by Need_a_bevvy »
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Offline rafabenihill

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #129 on: January 3, 2009, 07:22:08 pm »
poor game babel today..
needs more games to get back his confidence..
can we afford to give him games?
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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #130 on: January 3, 2009, 11:55:55 pm »
poor game babel today..
needs more games to get back his confidence..
can we afford to give him games?

not sure mate, i think him coming off the bench against tired defenders is the best option. But we dont need him most games at the moment, he needs to stepup to at least equal his performances in teh 2nd half of the season
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Offline redmeanmachine

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #131 on: January 4, 2009, 01:38:15 am »
poor game babel today..
needs more games to get back his confidence..
can we afford to give him games?

We can't afford to give him starting line-up in league matches - only as sub appearance against tired defence. Totally agree with more games to get back his confidence.

Rafa should now let him play for reserves first to get back his confidence. What he needs are games. Perhaps also more 5-aside game, too improve on his touches, decision-making, runs, etc.

As Rafa mentioned before few months back, Babel is not ready to play as starting 11, but I'm sure Rafa already started coaching Babel. It's up to Babel to work his socks off and prove everyone wrong that he will not be another "Jason Roberts" in the making.
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Offline slimbo

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #132 on: January 4, 2009, 01:52:50 am »
Football opinions are what make the game so passionate for us all.

I have been a fan of Lucas from the start and likewise undecided on Babel, as my posts will support.

For me, Lucas does have a good football brain. His movement off the ball and capacity to find a man quickly with a short pass is excellent. He really is aware of what's around him.

Babel does have explosive pace and is very raw but for me, I don't think he has shown a lot of game intelligence and I don't think he has a great first touch. Often looks to be dragging the ball from under his body for his second touch.

Maybe he needs to be playing in a striker role but it doesn't seem Rafa is looking at that role for him. Personally, if he is not going to get a run up front I think he should move on for his own sake.

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #133 on: January 4, 2009, 02:03:25 am »
i think Babel will play up front, but Rafa is giving him education on the wings, he can become a much better striker after playing on the wing ala Henry style. At least at the moment being on the wing means he's involved in the game more, defensively as well, so when in the future he is up front, he can apply pressure from the front. he's still young, but needs to produce something now.
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Offline Remmi

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #134 on: January 4, 2009, 02:38:56 am »
In my opinion, i do not think Lucas is anything special.

Yes, he has football awareness and make good short passes. However, that is all he does. No runs, no left foot, no tackle, no shooting ability, and hops around in the field all the time making short passes.

I am not saying he has no talent, but if he has got to up his game a lot to shine in Liverpool.

Offline liverpooll

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #135 on: January 4, 2009, 03:55:46 am »
In my opinion, i do not think Lucas is anything special.

Yes, he has football awareness and make good short passes. However, that is all he does. No runs, no left foot, no tackle, no shooting ability, and hops around in the field all the time making short passes.

I am not saying he has no talent, but if he has got to up his game a lot to shine in Liverpool.

Nope, if you ever see our matches in more details, you will see lucas trying do something new but that our players slow it down or lose the ball and again we start from the beginning

The team has to be along lucas as well

Offline new-red

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #136 on: January 4, 2009, 06:00:10 am »
In my opinion, i do not think Lucas is anything special.

Yes, he has football awareness and make good short passes. However, that is all he does. No runs, no left foot, no tackle, no shooting ability, and hops around in the field all the time making short passes.

I am not saying he has no talent, but if he has got to up his game a lot to shine in Liverpool.

That is the most uneducated opinion i have seen in a while. He gets stuck in quite abit. His tackling is improving but he is also a lot more aggresive in the tackle now. He has a good shot as he showed against Arsenal, but hes not getting many opportunities right now to exhibit that part of his game. He makes splendid runs in every game. The reason why you don't see him doing that is because he rarely gets rewarded for his runs. I'm not sure what to tell you about the left foot. He hasn't had to use it yet.

I think you need to watch him again, but more closely. You are missing a lot of what he offers to the team.
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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #137 on: January 4, 2009, 02:40:32 pm »
Yesterday's match against PNE offered us the opportunity to see Babel for the full 90 minutes. Starting line-up, on the right. Yes, not his usual place for us, but didn't people say playing on the left didn't suit him as a right-footed player?

Interestingly, we also played Riera on the left, often seen as competing with Babel for a starting place. (I don't really agree with that, I think the two offer very different qualities and selection of one over the other is more due to tactical reasons.) However, if there was a secret competition between the two in yesterday's game, then Riera certainly put his marker down, capping an excellent performance with a cracker goal.

Babel, not so much. Some good moments, but also disappeared for about an hour of the game. (Another sign that he's having trouble with the mental part of the game?) Frustrating decision-making again, particularly deciding when to pass/cross. There were moments in yesterday's match when I dreaded passes to Babel almost as much as I used to dread those to Voronin.  You had this feeling he was going to waste them. He got himself into some good positions, but seemed to run out of ideas what to do once he got the ball.

To me, Babel looks like a player who is used to bossing opposition players through sheer power and pace.  This approach might have worked in youth teams, where his physical abilities made this easy for him. Not anymore. Sadly, he seems to have no back-up plans when the first approach isn't working. And he lacks the trickery and dribbling abilities (those Riera has) to buy him time for another try.

I would agree with those who say he's lacking game intelligence. This can be a natural ability, but it can also be learned, as experience contributes massively to it. The question is whether Liverpool's first team is the place to learn, or if he would not be better suited with more regular football in a less demanding team or league.

One thing that always puzzled me was the amount of time Babel seems to need to settle in (that was the line the media were given all of last season). Yes, he is a young player moving to a foreign country with a different style of football, but he likely spoke fluent English before he came here, and has probably watched English football on TV ever since he was three years old. Compared to young South Americans or eastern Europeans like Skrtel, he should have found it much easier to settle.

Maybe we signed him at the wrong moment of his life and career. A year earlier and he would have been placed in the Academy, buying him time to settle in and develop without the added pressure of having to shine in a world-class team. A year or two later, and he might have developed his game, and his confidence, to really show all of his ability.
« Last Edit: January 4, 2009, 02:59:06 pm by redbyrdz »
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Offline buchigo!

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #138 on: January 4, 2009, 02:48:11 pm »
great read yorky and everyone.

with most, i've always been a supporter of lucas, despite his off form in the early part of the season and i've had doubts with ryan- as with many, excited when i signed him but i'm now of the opinion that he's a great athlete but a good footballer and needs to improve (yes i'm also fearful he might go the thierry way, with us playing juventus...)

in re: lucas' footballing brain- try to dissect stevie's second, if i'm not mistaken, against newcastle recently. lesser beings, like me (thus not being a pro, but i digress), would have passed it first time... and that would have allowed the defender (taylor?) to have the ball cleared or at least, it gets stuck in his legs. he waited, until stevie was almost offside- if it was done a moment later- and boom. goal. perfect. that said, i think he's getting the grasp of the team which is really great for us.

ps. someone answer me please- our present lineup allows for:
                                                <------ masch----->
                                                              :
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                                                               :
                                                           gerrard

during the early part of the season, did lucas replace masch or xabi? if it was masch, i think the cleanup role el jefecito provides isn't suitable to lucas (thus the numerous passbacks and his "off-form"), as opposed to playing in xabi's position of being a metronome and giving outlets to  stevie/nando/robbie.
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Offline manifest

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #139 on: January 4, 2009, 03:06:50 pm »

"Lucas brings the traditional Liverpool qualities of pass and move to a team that is slowly re-learning something that used to be its birthright."

occams razor in action yorky.......bravo

Offline manifest

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #140 on: January 4, 2009, 03:47:20 pm »
about ryan, posted a few days ago in conversation with royhendo:

What I will say is that there is something about his body that is "off". He is too rigid, too hard, better to say that there seems a lack of 'yield' in him......babel gets compared to thierry henry, right? ......well there is the difference between them. henry is relaxed and fluid, something so far ryan most certainly is not.

The first thing I would want to do with him would be to get him, funnily enough you mentioned it above roy, some alexander technique.....you know they help to retrain the body into being pivoted at just the right place to be in balance, because babel always looks to me like he is leaning forward too much.

This has the following consequences.....because he is leaning forward, he is often too close to the ball when he passes/crosses it, and as a result he has trouble 'lifting' the ball, making it easier for defenders to cut it out. this works for him when he is shooting, for his body shape  enables him to get terrific power AND keep the ball down......but football is mainly passing not shooting.

The same is true with dribbling, the ball gets constantly stuck under his feet, and defenders can shepherd him easily into cul de sacs.
Whenever he gets the ball, I get a thrill of 'go on ryan, attack!", and I imagine I am not alone in this......and it is partly his posture of leaning forward that encourages this feeling in me....rooney has it when he is on, so does ronaldo, and henry, and, god how could I forget, the best example of this of all, our nando, that slight tilt forward that makes defenders instantly distrust their own balance....but all of them keep the ball further from them as they are running in possession, and ryans close control just isn't that good.

So I would work to make him lean back ever so slightly, which would have of course the added bonus of making him lift his head up and enable him to better see the field and his teammates around him....something many on here have noticed as having poor game sense/awareness.

Second I would make him, in this posture, deliberately work on softness, perhaps practicing crossing by chipping the ball instead of doing the gerrard "drive" cross that is all that he has right now, and work at breaking down the brittleness of his body....he seems unnaturally tense to me......even his celebration when he scored vs. newcastle was like he was fighting for his life on the ropes.......psychologically I might work with him on his 'out' breath, all the way out.....it's like he is holding his breath all the time....and now I think of it, I do the same when he gets the ball....it's exciting, but he is somehow blocked from fulfilling his promise.

I think a tai-chi type thing might be really good for him, it's like he uses only force to go past people, but hasn't learnt to use a balance of force and yield that knows how to let an opponents own force act against them. aikido operates on the same principles as you know, but that form might heighten, and not soften this rigidity that I perceive.

Would any of the above make any difference? I always thought he was wrong for us and our controlled style, but if we could turn some of this he is an awesome specimen of an athlete. He reminds me a bit of agbonlahore......amazing athlete, not a particularly good footballer. without their speed,......

But mostly he reminds me of pre chelsea joe cole , who for all his talent had never learnt to kick a football prior to his arrival at chelsea. It's like coaches see this great dribbler and powerful athlete and think 'lets not mess with this natural talent too much', and so he has become locked in some really bad habits and no-one's thought to undo them.

 if.........if.....

oh yes, spot on about lucas.......lovely footballer, beautifully captured yorky and VDM.
« Last Edit: January 4, 2009, 04:23:18 pm by manifest »

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #141 on: January 4, 2009, 04:36:25 pm »
Very perceptive post Manifest. The thing you write about his body being "off" - too rigid as you say -is something that's particularly noticeable when he receives the ball. Or at least it's like this when he's low on confidence. It was painfully like this yesterday I think. He loses a second every time. He reminded me very much of Johnny Barnes.....Johnny playing for England, that is.

I'm not convinced however that it's much to do with him leaning into the ball. The second best cross of all yesterday was Babel's to Gerrard in the second half when he was almost at 45 degrees! You can get disguised elevation with that technique of course - as he did then. You can get greater accuracy too. Clearly, he also exaggerated the lean when he totally miskicked in the first half but I can forgive him that because it's a style of shooting that brings enormous rewards (ie power without apparent back-lift) if he gets it right. Yesterday he bungled it because his knee deflected the ball as it was dropping into the very odd zone he likes to shoot from: i.e. a yard further back than the coaching manuals advise.

As for yesterday's performance from Babel. Well it was poor. But I'd like to rescue something from it. The first thing is that he continued to worry the Preston defence throughout the game. Maybe that's because they're not very intelligent and they couldn't quite believe how harmless he was. But the result was the same as it had been v Newcastle. Gerrard benefited enormously. Babels' ability to draw defenders to him does create space for others. With Babel playing in the team Gerrard consistently gets beyond him into the corners, stretching both the length and the width of the pitch. I don't see that happening when Dirk plays on the right wing. I get the impression that Gerrard rates Babel very highly and enjoys playing alongside him. It's possible, too, that Gerrard might have scored from another Babel assist at the start of the second half when Babel feinted and put one into his path with the outside of his foot. The goalie then made his best save of the match.

But I would like to hear from those who went at Deepdale - in particular what they thought about Babel's movement off the ball. From the TV it looked very good when he moved into the middle near the end. And the lad was as instrumental as Gerrard in winning the second goal for Torres.

Am I being too kind?

 
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Offline Growler_LFC

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #142 on: January 4, 2009, 04:53:44 pm »
I agree, Lucas looks like a new player now, i still feel he could contribute more, but he looks, fitter, faster, and stronger this season...

But Ryan Babel! I'm sorry, but he is shit! When he first came to Liverpool he looked an exciting prospect, but he is crap! he either fouls, looses the ball, or blazes the ball over! Some  say he doesnt get enough of a chance, but Rafa sees what he is like in training, and if he doesnt go this month, then he will surely have to go come the end of the season!

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #143 on: January 4, 2009, 05:06:33 pm »
I cant agree with people who say that he is shit or will never come good. This is a young, very talented footballer....you just dont give up on talent like that.


I will attack it from the baby steps angle.
He has started to try aggressive things on the pitch in the past few games. He has began to attack the fullback more and even try shots off the dribble.
Now, it has very very rarely came off for him but the first step is that he is at least trying to do these things.

He is the prime example of the young player who dominated his age groups because of his physique and was never coached into developing his footballing brain or technique. Now, we dont know what they are doing behind the scenes but it actually looks like his technique has gotten worse from where it was. ( Remember his goal against Derby last season, he could not pull that off right now, IMO ).


Speaking as someone who watched Henry when he was at Juve. You cannot underestimate at just how quickly a player of this ability can just turn it around overnight and become what everyone expected him to be.
Thierry was 22 when he joined Arsenal and 24 when he became a great player. Now, I'm not saying Ryan will become a player on that level but it just shows that you need to be extra patient with this style of player. He will sink or swim with us and 22 years old is not the age to write his final chapter.


I'm glad that Rafa started him on the right wing last night. In the long run it should limit the amount of thinking that Ryan has to do out there and should enable him to just get after a full back and put in crosses.
Lets be honest right now, he could have very easily had a goal ( the miss-kick ) and an assist ( Ste's header and his shot ) last night.
Baby steps my friends, its all about baby steps.

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #144 on: January 4, 2009, 05:08:45 pm »
buchigo - I dont think Lucas replaced either of them. We changed our style slightly and allowed for Lucas to do what he does best and Xabi to do the same.

It makes me laugh when the media folks talk about 2 holding players when Lucas and Xabi play together. They are clearly anything but holding players.

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #145 on: January 4, 2009, 05:08:56 pm »


I'm not convinced however that it's much to do with him leaning into the ball.

am I being too kind?


watch his posture in the game yesterday .....he's off balance a lot......you are right about the one good cross......that's what I 'm saying, he has this ONE shape to kick a ball, and when it works, as with his shooting, it is a weapon, but footballers need many different body shapes to hit different passes/crosses, and he seems limited to this one shape.

not too kind......I take it as read we are talking about this not to trash him, but to understand what ails him in the hope that if we can figure it out, then rafa will too.....that he is our player and only want him to be the best he can be ( shit that sounds like a fucking ad for joining the marines )

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #146 on: January 4, 2009, 05:35:30 pm »
Manifest, dont you think thats a mental thing though. Like when you watch players who dont have great technique, they just stare at the ball when they have possession of it.

Like you said, his close control isnt great. So the natural tendency to overcome that is to play with your head staring right at the ball. Leading to slumped shoulders etc

I'm watching Robben at the moment...The difference is clear to see. Chest out, head up, ball on the string etc

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #147 on: January 4, 2009, 05:45:40 pm »
Manifest, dont you think thats a mental thing though. Like when you watch players who dont have great technique, they just stare at the ball when they have possession of it.

Like you said, his close control isnt great. So the natural tendency to overcome that is to play with your head staring right at the ball. Leading to slumped shoulders etc


But then one of the first things that Babel did in a Liverpool shirt - which blew everybody's mind - was that soft-shoe shuffle with the ball in a tight spot next to the Sunderland touchline.
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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #148 on: January 4, 2009, 06:32:20 pm »
Thats where the confidence comes to play. All the talent and skills are there...the pace, the size, the power, the trickery, the shooting.

Stan Collymore - Emile Heskey - Ryan Babel. All 3 had otherworldly potential but 2 of them didnt have the mentality to step forward.
We cant let Babel follow in the footsteps of the previous 2.




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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #149 on: January 4, 2009, 08:10:42 pm »
Manifest, dont you think thats a mental thing though. Like when you watch players who dont have great technique, they just stare at the ball when they have possession of it.



yes and no.....If it was mental then we would have seen a time when he didn't do this, and I haven't yet....though last season he was more relaxed and more effective to be sure, but he's always had this 'limitation' that I've seen. what I'm saying doesn't stop him from being effective and threatening in his own way, it's just that he could be so much more.....well, in my dream of him anyway.....in the meantime, he does bring a certain power and pace which we lack, ( especially in torres absence ) which gives rafa a good "option".

in truth, I'm just trying to make guesses as to how he might improve, and guesses they remain.

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #150 on: January 4, 2009, 08:18:43 pm »
But then one of the first things that Babel did in a Liverpool shirt - which blew everybody's mind - was that soft-shoe shuffle with the ball in a tight spot next to the Sunderland touchline.

great example......his close control can be breathtaking on occasion, it's not these moments that limit him....I'm wondering if episodes like this growing up made coaches 'not rock the boat' for fear of spoiling him.....but it's the other parts of his game that need to be trained and loosened.

basically, he needs to be taught to kick a football properly. anyway, I'm starting to argue this as though I'm right, and you're wrong, which in this context is ridiculous....


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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #151 on: January 4, 2009, 08:35:16 pm »
Thats where the confidence comes to play. All the talent and skills are there...the pace, the size, the power, the trickery, the shooting.

Stan Collymore - Emile Heskey - Ryan Babel. All 3 had otherworldly potential but 2 of them didnt have the mentality to step forward.
We cant let Babel follow in the footsteps of the previous 2.

I think that the Collymore comparison is beginning to look more accurate than the usual Henry one. Incidentally, I was a massive fan of Stan because, when his head was right, he could destroy teams. Babel needs a run as a striker but won't get one here (barring a string of unfortunate injuries) and he seems to be running out of patience.
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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #152 on: January 4, 2009, 08:36:21 pm »
Funny talking about Babel and rigidity. The first I saw of him live was when we played Derby last season. I was right in line with his goal and I still can't fathom how he did it- every time I watch the goal I still think he's about to hit it with his left. His body shape to con the defenders as to his movement, and the subsequent finish (which I think sent the keeper the wrong way) was anything but rigid. It was about as tricky a feint as I've seen in fact- brilliant move and gave the defenders 0 chance of defending him.

It's a massive confidence issue. He thinks Rafa has no faith in his abilities as he's not starting regularly, and perhaps he can't handle that well at all.

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #153 on: January 4, 2009, 08:37:15 pm »
But then one of the first things that Babel did in a Liverpool shirt - which blew everybody's mind - was that soft-shoe shuffle with the ball in a tight spot next to the Sunderland touchline.

It was and it is disappointing to not see the kind of ball that we know he is capable of. At the moment, his first, second and third tough is more like Kuyts. This kid can do wonderful things with a football, but he doesn't seem to quite know what he should do in a given situation. There have been too many times where he has taken on a defender, and goes inside/outside where another defender is and we all can see he will not get through both of them and he simply loses the ball. Often it is obvious to us what the better option was (either go the other way or look for a pass).

In the end, we must not give up on Babel, and Rafa must not let Babel take the easy option of going back to Ajax or whatever hairbrained scheme he cooked up. He needs to work hard, and maybe even look at Lucas as an example of someone struggling who is looking much better now. Although the purchase of Riera has possibly hurt Babels immediate progress, it does mean than we are not reliant on Babel to deliver this season and we can afford to wait for him to mature.
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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #154 on: January 4, 2009, 08:44:36 pm »
I also think that Babel can be a bit of a flat track bully. Against Derby he was up against some poor arl fella at left back (poss Andy Griffin?) and absolutely destroyed him. It took him two or three runs to realise that he could just knock the ball past him and then outsprint him but once the penny dropped he couldn't get enough of the ball.

Maybe "confidence player" is more positive than "flat track bully" but the point still stands.

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #155 on: January 4, 2009, 09:13:11 pm »


Maybe "confidence player" is more positive than "flat track bully" but the point still stands.


He has played and beaten plenty of good defenders in International football. Heck, there is a reason why the majority of teams were interested in him 2 years ago.

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #156 on: January 4, 2009, 09:18:00 pm »
Reading this interchange between yorky and manifest is a distinct pleasure....

Manifest - beyond the scope of our little footballing microcosm, Babel has had a pretty odd life. I can't remember if he was three or six years old when it happened, but he grew up very near Schipol airport and witnessed a passenger jet plough into the apartment block next to his, where some of his little mates lived.
Edit: he was almost 6.

I get the impression of an introspective kid who's fighting to find some expression of himself that fits - this MC thing he has going for example - it's toe-curling from an outsider to his own upbringing's point of view, and it's hard to square with the overtly religious thing he has going on.

It may be off topic to a massive extent, but he does have the air of someone who, as you suggest, is a bit fragmented - a bit of a humpty dumpty who's fallen off a Dutch Dyke (if you will, matron).

On the subject of his shooting technique Yorky, it was interesting shortly after he moved here to read about him quizzing Gerrard on his shooting from distance and wanting to master the same technique, because he talked about similar things to the stuff you describe (very little backlift, ball quite far back in the 'address', low and rising 'jonny metjod' trajectory).

Honestly you've got a real insight into the particulars of ball striking and the finer points of technique mate. I wish I could get you coaching my toddlers when they learn to strike a ball properly.
« Last Edit: January 4, 2009, 09:38:53 pm by royhendo »

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #157 on: January 4, 2009, 09:26:16 pm »
Here's one of the interviews... I got it wrong - he learned the technique from an Ajax reserve...

http://www.ft.com/cms/s/0/b9e827a2-6320-11dc-b3ad-0000779fd2ac.html

---

Towering Babel unawed by Liverpool's football temple
By Simon Kuper

Published: September 15 2007 03:00 | Last updated: September 15 2007 03:00

Ryan Babel still lives alone in Liverpool - or accompanied only by the Lord, as he sees it - but he needs company. "We're still deciding whether my mother will join me, or my girlfriend," the footballer confides. "In Holland I hadn't moved out of my parents' home yet. That's a big step." Can he boil an egg? "No, that doesn't work."

Though Liverpool paid £12m for him this summer, the Dutch striker still seems something of a naïf. Above that big body is a little boyish face, with slight buckteeth and the faintest beard. His hair is shaven into a neat square.

Babel is 20, but you would guess him to be younger. Talking in the Dutch national team's beach hotel beside the dunes the other day, he offered a refreshingly innocent view of England and its football - a game he has all the qualities to conquer.

Babel was born in Amsterdam, but his accent reveals family origins in Surinam, the former Dutch colony on South America's northern tip. There are only 70,000 Amsterdam Surinamese, but they produce more footballers per capita than possibly any other ethnic group in the world. Their stars - Ruud Gullit, Frank Rijkaard, Clarence Seedorf, Patrick Kluivert and Edgar Davids - would staff half a world 11, and behind them are many other Dutch internationals and hundreds of good professionals.

Babel joined Ajax Amsterdam aged 11. Everyone saw his gifts - the big kid who moved like a gymnast and did wonders with the ball - but he rarely scored. Nobody could quite work out what he was for. Criticism was unceasing. Two Ajax youth coaches told me about a kid by the weird name of Babel, who, when the legend Marco van Basten had arrived to help coach his team, remained entirely blasé. "Aren't you pleased Marco has come?" one coach asked him. Babel just shrugged beneath his baseball cap. "Mwaaa," he said.

Nonetheless, by 18 he had become the youngest man to score for Holland since the war. Yet when Van Basten, by this time Holland's manager, inquired after his career plans, Babel replied: "I'm going to go into music, coach." A devoted rapper, he has approximately 5,000 songs on his iPod.

In the beach hotel, Babel recalls the chastisements of Ajax's coach Henk ten Cate, another Surinamer. If Babel got too intricate trying to dribble past a defender, Ten Cate would scream: "Ryan, you're the fastest in Holland, dammit! Just kick the ball and run."

Babel never became a key player for Ajax, but over this summer he improved quickly. "Purely because of confidence," he told me. In June he led Holland to victory in the European Under-21 Championships, during which the Dutch football journal Hard Gras noted this vignette: Babel, at a gymnastics training session, standing on a balancing bar with a ball on his foot.

Rafael Benitez, Liverpool's manager, had had Babel watched since the boy was 16. This summer Benitez signed him. Entering Liverpool's legendary Anfield stadium, Babel was unawed. "At first it did nothing to me. It still doesn't." Doesn't he like legendary grounds? "It doesn't matter to me. I feel happiest if the stadium looks decent." He does admit to touching the legendary "This is Anfield" sign before taking the field, but only because his team-mates do.

His bigger priority in Liverpool was finding a church. "I drove past a couple, but in principle you can't understand people in Liverpool. It's a very strange dialect."

Stranger still were British taboids. Benitez, who is "like an uncle", instructed him: "If they ask something, they want to hear A, but you think B, and you say C."

In training, Babel noticed that Liverpool's players didn't berate each other as was customary at Ajax. If he screamed, "Where's your control?" everyone looked at him uncomprehendingly. Another surprise was how much Liverpool practised defending. "We are very compact, and then we come out with two, three passes, like madmen, and shoot."

Yet judging by his first, good performances, he has Benitez's licence to run with the ball. "Of course. When it comes to attacking in matches, he has said almost nothing to me. I have tasks only when we defend."

At Ajax, Babel had learned his trademark but ineffective "hip shot", struck from underneath the body with almost no backlift, from Gaston Sangoy, an obscure Argentine reserve. At Liverpool, he imitates a more celebrated team-mate. "I just use Steven Gerrard as my shooting coach. He really can shoot."

Physically, surely, Babel is already complete? "A big body doesn't mean you're strong. I understand from Robin van Persie at Arsenal that Julio Baptista isn't strong at all, even though he's a massive guy." Is Babel strong? "I feel strong."

Are Liverpool, top of the league, strong enough to win their first title since 1990? "At first, when people said we had to be champions, I thought, 'Well, I don't know about that.' But now we're growing." Not half as fast as Babel is, though.

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #158 on: January 4, 2009, 09:28:43 pm »
And this one from Northcroft...

http://www.timesonline.co.uk/tol/sport/football/premier_league/liverpool/article2604396.ece

Won't post the whole thing...

---

At Anfield, Babel is finding out about expectation all over again. He says today’s game with Tottenham is crucial, given Liverpool’s curious slump since beating Toulouse 4-0 and Derby 6-0 consecutively. Babel, with clever control and icy finishing, would have pleased even Van Basten with the goal he scored – his first in England – in the rout of Derby but he has not played a full 90 minutes since, nor has he been involved at all in Liverpool’s past three matches.

Another of Rafael Benitez’s selection mysteries? “I’m relaxed,” smiles Babel. “I knew before I signed the contract he was working with rotation and it was up to me to go with that or not. I’m trying to work very hard every day and I’m ready if he needs me.

“Right now, I just see the beginning in terms of how I want to develop as a player. I see this as a learning year. In Ajax I grew up playing with 4-3-3, I only know that system. Liverpool is something new. I was a left-winger at Ajax, here I’m a winger and a midfielder, and have to do more defensively.

“I’m learning a lot about what the movements are in each position in midfield and up front, and things seem to be going faster than I’d imagined. After, I will try and focus on one position. I prefer to play as a striker and hopefully I’ll get the chance one day. And I will take it, definitely.”

In training he studies others. “Alonso, Sissoko, Crouch, Kuyt . . . their movements and visions. Gerrard is great to watch if you want to learn how to shoot properly and I’ve already asked him a couple of times how he can manage to keep the ball low from long distance. Torres is good for seeing his movement and his finishing. Rafa is very patient and talks a lot about my game.”

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Re: What Lucas brings to the team. What Babel might bring.
« Reply #159 on: January 4, 2009, 09:32:59 pm »
And this (sorry it's like a denial of service attack this eh?)...

Headstrong yet insecure... technically prodigious yet unbalanced and clumsy... he's a gordian knot for someone like you manifest, no?

http://www.guardian.co.uk/football/2008/nov/15/liverpool-premierleague

---

With a little help from above, Babel aspires to central casting
Liverpool's thoughtful Dutch forward says he is in a hurry to succeed - and in his favourite role
Daniel Taylor   The Guardian, Saturday 15 November 2008
 
Ryan Babel has released a number of rap songs in Holland under the name 'Rio'. Photograph: Christopher Thomond /Guardian

A biting November's day on Merseyside. A kettle is boiling in the background and the windows are beginning to steam up as Ryan Babel takes his seat and offers a polite handshake. First impressions? That he seems remarkably unassuming for a star footballer at one of Europe's bigger clubs. But then there is the story of him berating a team-mate - "where's your touch?" - in one of his first training sessions at Liverpool so maybe there is more to him than meets the eye.

He is an intriguing character. Babel is 22 next month, but you could easily think he was younger. He has a boyish, slightly buck-toothed smile and you want to put an arm round him when he explains how, before moving to Liverpool, he had never lived away from his parents and how, 16 months in, he is still trying to find a church where he feels totally comfortable. Babel often carries a copy of the Bible and has a routine before every match where he finds a quiet spot for his prayers.

But Babel is streetwise. He had to be to survive in the Bijlmermeer, the unloved district of Amsterdam where he was brought up. Just click online and watch the videos of him rapping. Babel has a studio at home and has put out a number of records under the name Rio, including one collaboration with his Holland international team-mate Royston Drenthe. His lyrics could make Eminem blush - sample: "you can see this nigga with number 19/I can't even spend all my money/keep your daughter inside or you will be my family" - but the Dutch seem to like it. "The last one was called Eeyeeyo and went to number one in Holland over the summer," he says. "Music has always been an important part of my life."

The Biljmermeer, or colloquially Bijlmer, is a cluster of tower blocks close to the Amsterdam Arena and home to many of the city's 70,000 immigrants from the former Dutch colony of Surinam. "I don't want to use the word 'ghetto' but that is one way people describe it," says Babel. "I was lucky. My parents were very strict and had rules for me and, if ever I was playing outside, I always had a set time to come back in. But the Bijlmer had a lot of problems and I had other friends who chose the wrong road. There were a lot of drugs and crime and when you get into that scene it can be difficult to get back out."

This was also the place where El Al flight 1862, on the way from New York to Tel Aviv and having refuelled at Schiphol airport, crashed in 1992. "The plane came over our flat [he uses his hand to show how close it was] before crashing into the next high block. It could easily have been us." Thirty-nine people from his neighbourhood were killed, along with the three crew members on the plane and the only other person on board, a non-paying passenger. "It's a horrible memory. I was very young at the time [two months short of his sixth birthday] but I can still remember it. There was this almighty bang and when we ran out we could see all the flames and smoke. We were so close to it we had to leave our flat because it was not safe and we ended up at my grandma's. Then, when we were allowed to go back, I can just remember this terrible scene of complete devastation. It was like something out of a film."

His upbringing makes him more interested in real life than celebrity life. Babel is not just an accomplished footballer for Liverpool but a fine ambassador. He has been involved in an anti-racism workshop run by the Anthony Walker Foundation and this week devoted himself to another of the Premier League's Creating Chances events, at the launch of Liverpool's Respect 4 All centre. The project, funded in part by the Premier League Professional Footballers' Association, is for 12- to 16-year-olds with different types of disabilities.

Babel moved easily among the children, starting off with a game of wheelchair basketball before a target-practice routine with visually impaired children and a penalty shoot-out with youngsters with severe learning difficulties. Two hours of what would ordinarily be post-training rest time had elapsed by the time he had finished, but he was happy. "It's always a good feeling if you can make these kids happy. Not everyone has the life they expect but I still think they can make the best of it and, with this kind of centre, we want to help to inspire them."

Babel has sporting genes. His father, Guno, is a basketball coach. His mother, Asta, was an accomplished athlete and his sister, Janice, almost made it to the Olympics as a 100m and 200m sprinter. As fast as her brother? "Close," he smiles.

His own athleticism was first spotted by Ajax when he was 11, although it was not a straightforward process. "They used to have selection days for all the local kids and I went to these trials three times and got turned down every time," he recalls. "On the third time I was so upset because I thought I was not good enough. I was eight years old and I had the feeling, 'That's it, I don't want to play for Ajax any more!' But I kept doing well at my amateur club and, in the end, Ajax came to me."

No community on the planet, per capita, produces more top footballers than Surinam. In their day, Ruud Gullit, Frank Rijkaard, Clarence Seedorf, Edgar Davids and Patrick Kluivert - all of Surinamese heritage - could all fit in a world XI. Babel is seen as the latest in a long distinguished line. He made his debut for Ajax shortly after his 17th birthday and, at 18, became Holland's youngest international goalscorer since the 1930s.

He cost Liverpool £11.5m and, in his first season, won their young player of the season award. Yet there are glimpses of frustration. Babel made 20 of his 48 appearances last season from the bench and, since the start of this one, has found himself on the edges even more. Of his 14 appearances, 10 have been as a substitute, making it difficult for him to fulfil the great Marco van Basten's prophecy that he could be "the next Thierry Henry".

"I'm satisfied with my level of performance but the situation is clear - that I'm not going to be one of the regular 11 starters," says Babel. "It's difficult. I do get frustrated. I can tell myself that I'm still only 21 and at the start of my career. But it is making it hard for me because, as time goes on, they keep telling me that I'm young and that my time will come. Well, OK, but I'm not a player who wants to wait. I want to be involved now rather than in three or four years' time."

While Rafael Benítez has used Robbie Keane to partner Fernando Torres, Babel has mostly been employed on the wing. His pace could trouble any full-back, but Babel is a reluctant wide man. "I have always said that I want to play as a striker," he says. "Of course, it would not help me improve if I wasn't able to play, or train, in another position a couple of times. But all the time? I used to play as a striker in Holland. I grew up as a striker. That's the position I want to play.

"But I'm working on it. I look at myself before I blame others. I'm going to do something about it. It's not something I'm scared about." As the children at Respect 4 All know, Babel likes a central role.