Author Topic: Saviour or urban myth?  (Read 20604 times)

Offline john_mac

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Saviour or urban myth?
« on: December 22, 2004, 09:24:03 pm »
I’m definitely here to be shot at, but I must admit that I just cannot see what others appear to see in Milan Baros. Hardworking, certainly, direct and awkward, most definitely but a team player and a player to build for the future on, I’m sorry but I just don’t see it.

To me, whilst being a superior player, he has more in common with Camara and Rosenthal than he ever has with the Michael Owen’s, Robbie Fowler’s, John Aldridge and Ian Rush’s of this world. All of those players understood the importance of their team-mates and while they all had an un-nerving knack of finding the net they never relied on unpredictability and every team mate in the squad knew their strongest points.

When Dalglish picked up the ball around the half-way line there was nothing more predictable than where Ian Rush would be, pushing onto the final defender, awaiting a through ball. As McManaman  hit the by-line there was nothing more certain than Robbie finding space around the penalty spot, and like it or not, with the ball at Sami’s feet Michael would go shoulder to shoulder with the opposition’s deepest defender.

Liverpool fans appear to have this peculiar knack of adoring strikers that are nowhere near the best. Aldridge was constantly compared to Rush, in a derogatory manner, during the 87-88 season. Only after his departure was he truly appreciated. Fowler’s partnership with Collymore was perhaps the most peculiar. Far and away the best striker circa 95–96, the Kop instead chose to idolise a player who consistently under-performed, often letting both himself and his team-mates down with a thoroughly unprofessional attitude. ‘Gifted but flawed’ could not have been more apt than for Stanley.

It was only with the departure of the dogger and emergence of the wonderful Owen that the Kop finally started to show Robbie some appreciation. Interestingly the timing corresponded ‘co-incidentally’ with feverous attacks from many toffees around the city on the Liverpool number 9. Support for Robbie reached fever pitch, when he was past his best, but for the idiots around there was always a Robbie versus Michael decision to make, which Michael inevitably suffered from. Even the correct decision to sell Robbie, was met with mass derision amongst some red fans.

Soon after his departure Milan arrived, with a massive reputation for one so young. I think he has set some record by playing for the Czechs at numerous levels within a number of months and scored at everyone. He arrived overweight, demanding a game, blaming the then coach Thompson for everything under the sun. The coaching team at Anfield were all keen to unload the player.

The following summer saw him return with a vastly improved attitude towards the coaching staff and his team-mates, many of them established internationals that he had shown little respect. His pre-season performances were amongst the best at the club. Although his performances were fleeting, he began to build a rapport with ‘the most knowledge-able fans in football’ (a self appointed title if ever there was one), at the same time they were virtually ignoring the European Footballer of the Year. Often his most successful performances would be coming off the bench; but support from the fans still grew even more, especially as derision at the choice of Heskey grew.

He started last season in good form. His performance at Goodison Park was easily his best to that date and he actually found his strike partner for Michael to bury a cracker. Of course, injury at Blackburn could not have been worse timed, but he never looked like being effective or worthy of a place on his return. Michael Owen was the main striker at the club, a world class player worthy of the title, even if Liverpool fans were only rarely to accept it, but whilst the players at the club had accepted this for a number of years, Milan never could. He struggled, like many had before him, to put together any sort of rapport with Michael, and was generally unwilling to play second fiddle to him, an attitude that some may see as admirable, but not if it is at the detriment of the team. Personally I believe this attitude was to both Milan’s and the teams detriment - the manager certainly saw it this way.

Milan’s performances in the summer were excellent, in a team with quality passing midfielders playing with a withdrawn striker, and given adulation and top billing he excelled. A lifelong Barcelona fan, of course he was interested in a move there, unfortunately they and their biggest rivals had eyes on bigger (or smaller) fish. Still Michael’s departure finally gave Milan the top billing he had craved since his arrival, at least till Barca come knocking again.

I don’t think that Rafa quite saw it this way, devasted at the loss of Michael and Camacho’s change of heart over Morientes he was left short. This was exacerbated by the refusal of Valencia to even speak to the Liverpool manager. Still he had a much sought after striker up his sleeve, one already written off by many of the ‘most knowledgable fans in football’. We’ll never know, but I suspect that Rafa would have kept Michael and sacrificed Milan at the drop of a hat.

The tactical set up as stands now suits Milan, and we have seen that in recent weeks. He will excel as the main striker and he will benefit from good passing midfielders. He loves to be the ‘main man’ and the adulation he receives at Anfield and in is home country. He is a very good player, fast, strong, unpredictable, with an eye for goal and a determination to hit the back of the net as often as he can.

The question that we must answer is if he is good enough for Rafa to build around, perhaps to the detriment of others? There is no doubt that he had doubts at the start of the season, regularly choosing others to lead his line, but Milan has certainly played the best football of his Liverpool career, most notably in the games against Palace and Newcastle. I can’t help but feel that on too many occasions he chooses the wrong option, head down, being shepherded towards a corner flag by players with a fraction of the ability.

He remains young but could anybody honestly compare his progress to Rush, Owen or Fowler at the same age? I can’t, and as sad as it is seems, Erik Meijer owns the same number of championship medals as two of that illustrious trio. Of course he can improve, and he has done just that during his time at Anfield, but there are far, far better players around. I just cannot see players flourishing alongside him, I cannot see players coming through the way Robbie did next to Rushie or Michael in turn did next to Robbie.

It is not an attack on Milan, he is a very good player, but a player I cannot help but feel is seeing out time at Anfield, and perhaps a key to open up the treasure chest that Rafa wants to get his hands on. As good as he is, there are better around and a look at Cisse’s development often looking lonely and distraught does not give me confidence that he has learned how to become more of a team player, and you will never win the league without them. He must be so frustrating at time to play with - who of us were not surprised when he pulled the ball into Mellor’s path on Sunday?

I’m sorry but I just don’t see him as the world class striker some appear to; I certainly do not see him as the key to all our problems. He is the best we have available at the moment, but think that may not be the case for much longer and I certainly won’t be surprised if we don’t see him around in the longer term.

Rafa knows what he wants and knows what he needs. His hands may be more tied than he would like but whilst there will always be room for individuals within a team, Rafa will want players that play as individuals within the framework of the team. Too much unpredictability will never allow that; if your own players do not know what you are going to do, their life is going to be far more difficult, and their ability to dominate a game will be affected.

Go ed ……… tell me how wrong I am - I hope that Milan and Rafa prove I am.

© john_mac 2004
« Last Edit: December 23, 2004, 02:03:49 am by Rushian »
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Offline Hugh

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Re: Saviour or urban myth?
« Reply #1 on: December 22, 2004, 09:31:32 pm »
11 goals in 20 odd appearances this season. 23 years of age.

That'll do for me.

Offline Millsee

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Re: Saviour or urban myth?
« Reply #2 on: December 22, 2004, 09:41:49 pm »
An interesting take mate, and one I hadn't fully considered. Need to think about this more before a considered response.

However, it takes someone special to take the Golden Boot at the Euro Championships, and I see improvements in every game he plays.

Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: Saviour or urban myth?
« Reply #3 on: December 22, 2004, 09:45:22 pm »
He's a natural finisher - so sharp around the box. Would Ronnie Rosenthal have scored over 20 international goals by the age of 23, and been top scorer at a major tournament? The comparison is very unjust! You are also judging a player last season on his return from months out - never a fair time to assess someone.

I don't know what people doubt about Milan; how can you not see his quality? His record - when he's been believed in and given a run of games for club and country - is phenomenal. He works his socks off, and he scores goals. You can only judge strikers when they get a regular run of games.

He's also has this amazing knack of going past people when he has no right to - the tighter a defender, the more easily he worms his way past. He has his faults, but which player doesn't? You pick players for what they can do, you don't leave them out for what they can't do.

Baros' record for the Czechs far outstrips Fowler's for England, and indeed Owen's (and Rush's). Milan has also done something they haven't - excelled at a major international tournament. Sure, Milan needs more time in a red shirt to prove he's up with the greats, but at the same time he's proven his qualities in other ways.

Offline harrytrow

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Re: Saviour or urban myth?
« Reply #4 on: December 22, 2004, 09:45:38 pm »
Whether you are right or wrong ( and I tend to agree with most of your argument) this is what we have got.
No good analysing moaning or writing too many essays on the subject, until the situation changes, it's Milan and we have to back him even to the point of overestimating his quality.
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Re: Saviour or urban myth?
« Reply #5 on: December 22, 2004, 09:47:30 pm »
He has so much ability but despite his prodigious record at international level, he still seems not quite the finished article. He does appear though to be gaining more awareness of his teammates (sp?), as Sunday showed. If he can start to form a true partnership with whoever, he'll be pushing for top scorer in the Prem soon.
But as Rushian and Paul T have said, let's get him tied to a long contract first!

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Re: Saviour or urban myth?
« Reply #6 on: December 22, 2004, 09:50:38 pm »
You cant compare any striker to Fowler and Owen be it Baros, Cisse or Mellor, we hit the jackpot when they came through the ranks, true world-class strikers (although we know that even with the no of goals hes scored, Robbie has still massively underachieved for his talents)

Top 10-15 strikers dont come cheap, thats the big problem now you have to be mighty clever to get hold of that kind of talent without spending £20m+ Cisse was expensive enough!

I regard Milan as one of the talented strikers at the club, but pre-Euro 2004 he was just a very good striker who deserved more than to be stuck behind Heskey
the problem overall was that with Owen leaving we lost a proven world-class striker and now Milan has been promoted to no 1 probably too quickly

Only time will tell whether Milan can develop into world-class but you have to agree that he's done well this season, and has improved in all areas of his game. In the last 5-6 games hes played with much more consistency over 90mins, and has started to link up better with others
Against Newcastle he couldve had an assist after 2 min as well

Best thing you can say is that Rafa wont let Baros do his own thing, he'll make sure that all players are team players and if not, use them to finance better players
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Re: Saviour or urban myth?
« Reply #7 on: December 22, 2004, 09:50:40 pm »
There’s very little I can say to this other than I agree on most counts – I find Milan one of the most frustrating players I’ve watched – undoubtedly talented but just as selfish.  Never been a big fan and often found the adoration he receives as strange considering he hadn’t done a tap to actually deserve it…

However I also watched some great performances from him in the summer and the Newcastle game at the weekend was for me one of his best in a Liverpool shirt – maybe he’s learning, maybe Rafa will make him better…. either way it’s a win win situation for us, if we’re a stepping stone then so be it – lets make a few quid form him and move on…. if he’s here to stay great, on the understanding that he delivers.
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Offline ratcatcher

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Re: Saviour or urban myth?
« Reply #8 on: December 22, 2004, 09:50:44 pm »
I’m definitely here to be shot at, but I must admit that I just cannot see what others appear to see in Milan Baros. Hardworking, certainly, direct and awkward, most definitely but a team player and a player to build for the future on, I’m sorry but I just don’t see it.


Totally agree with you John. I don't understand or follow the cult status too many easily have bestowed on Baros. Those people who quote Baros' goal record at international level as some kind of unarguable pointer to him being world class need to get a reality check (Czech?). Don't they realise Vladimir Smicer has a goal record at international level of a goal virtually every other game (check the stats)? Do they proclaim Smicer as a natural finisher, world class etc, etc? Somehow I doubt it.

But as with all things, the belief is with the believer. Perhaps thats why many of them dont rate Owen or claim he 'engineered' a move away from Liverpool too?
These are my own opinions. They are not meant or intended as a criticism of anyone else's opinion just because they are different but if you can't see past that, then tough shit!

Offline Alf

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Re: Saviour or urban myth?
« Reply #9 on: December 22, 2004, 09:50:47 pm »
Baros has pace, he's good in the air, he runs at defenders with the ball which they hate and whenever he's played for LFC he's scored goals. However there is room for improvement and he needs to improve his 1st touch, look up when he's on the ball
and stop overrunning the ball.

I have never believed that he's a better player for Czech Republic than he is for us and firmly believe he can become one of the world's top strikers given the oppurtunity.

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Re: Saviour or urban myth?
« Reply #10 on: December 22, 2004, 09:51:48 pm »
He also appears to be more confident and more of a team player, now that he seems to get the odd player alongside him, taking a bit of pressure away.

About time we played with two strikers together, rather than the miles apart they were at the start of the season, and that was before we started playing with one up, instead of taking the risk of another young forward.

I hope we can take forward the good things from sunday, a better team playing against us would help to sort out whether he will continue improving.
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Offline Gnurglan

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Re: Saviour or urban myth?
« Reply #11 on: December 22, 2004, 09:52:49 pm »
I believe it's only a case of us finally giving him a chance. The quality is there. It has always been there, but we haven't been able to use it. Now we are. He may not be the Rush, Fowler or Owen, but he's good enough. Not only does he bring goals, he also adds a certain enthusiasm and he's always up to something. Maybe he's too eager to get involved, but that's a fault I can live with.

If we can direct his qualities even more, he'll take yet another step up in his game. No worries.

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Re: Saviour or urban myth?
« Reply #12 on: December 22, 2004, 10:01:49 pm »
He scores goals and win us games and more importantly points. But i still don't like the kid, it's just something about him i've never taking a shine to him i don't think i ever will.
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Re: Saviour or urban myth?
« Reply #13 on: December 22, 2004, 10:02:57 pm »
OK, out of all those who have written above in the post, how many has played as a forward week-in, week-out, in a league (any league)?

Please also remember that the game as it is played today is very different from what it was even 5 years ago.
Milan is an outstanding forward, end of.

Offline koolkamal

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Re: Saviour or urban myth?
« Reply #14 on: December 22, 2004, 10:04:07 pm »
I actually think that with some time Milan could be ranked up there with the greats, he has alot of good qualities that outway the bad. Granted that sometimes you'd just wish he'd look up and pass the ball,  but being a team player is something you can learn. Look at that pass for Mellor the weekend, if this was earlier he may have tried to score himself. I tend to like that selfishness abit, because he has the ability to go pass defenders that alot of striker cant do.
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Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: Saviour or urban myth?
« Reply #15 on: December 22, 2004, 10:12:29 pm »
Don't they realise Vladimir Smicer has a goal record at international level of a goal virtually every other game (check the stats)? Do they proclaim Smicer as a natural finisher, world class etc, etc? Somehow I doubt it


Smicer's record for the Czechs is one in three (24 goals in around 70 games). It doesn't mean Vladi is a bad player, just that perhaps he doesn't have what it takes to succeed in the English game.

Baros' is approximately two in three. If you think that you can score 21 goals in 34 games for your country - and against good teams - then you know nothing about football. Did you see his goal against the Dutch in qualifying? It was sheer genius. Then he scored five over the summer, when it mattered most. All were quality finishes.

Since when has Smicer come to close to scoring regularly for us? He hasn't even hinted at it, alas.

Milan, however, is now doing just that - starting games, scoring goals (and natural finisher's goals at that). I know a natural finisher when I see one, and Baros is just that. His header at home to West Brom two seasons back is a goal I could talk about for days. The way he reacted to a loose ball in the box away at Fulham and at home to Palace prove his predatory instincts. (Neil Mellor looks like another natural, but he doesn't have Milan's mobility or experience, and hasn't gone anywhere near as far as to proving it).

I don't know, Milan's having a great season, he had a great Euro 2004, he had a great qualifying campaign for the Czechs. Why the fuck can't people give him credit for that?

As for being selfish - while he needs to improve on his awareness, give me a selfish striker (a Van Nistelrooy or Shearer) over an unselfish one (a Heskey).

Offline coltmanaman

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Re: Saviour or urban myth?
« Reply #16 on: December 22, 2004, 10:16:29 pm »
There’s very little I can say to this other than I agree on most counts – I find Milan one of the most frustrating players I’ve watched – undoubtedly talented but just as selfish.  Never been a big fan and often found the adoration he receives as strange considering he hadn’t done a tap to actually deserve it…

However I also watched some great performances from him in the summer and the Newcastle game at the weekend was for me one of his best in a Liverpool shirt – maybe he’s learning, maybe Rafa will make him better…. either way it’s a win win situation for us, if we’re a stepping stone then so be it – lets make a few quid form him and move on…. if he’s here to stay great, on the understanding that he delivers.


tend to agree with this - a talented but very frustrating player.   

Agree with Paul T though that he has a canny knack of turning/beating  defenders.


Offline ratcatcher

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Re: Saviour or urban myth?
« Reply #17 on: December 22, 2004, 10:19:18 pm »
Paul, come on. Baros is an out and out striker, Smicer is not. (And I did say virtually a goal every other game. Is it a pre requisite to be pedantic now?) His goal tally is therefore as good as Baros considering the position he plays. Baros is a good striker. I'm not and never have disputed that. But as for being in the same class as Owen or even World Class, that's not a description I'd subscribe to.

If Baros does it season in, season out for 5 or 6 seasons, then I'll tend to agree with you and others about his status.
« Last Edit: December 22, 2004, 10:20:58 pm by ratcatcher »
These are my own opinions. They are not meant or intended as a criticism of anyone else's opinion just because they are different but if you can't see past that, then tough shit!

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Re: Saviour or urban myth?
« Reply #18 on: December 22, 2004, 10:19:52 pm »
agree, good points raised ref build a team around, in my book you cant with milan, hes not in that class of the manager wanting to build around, at the moment milan is no1, not long ago he wasnt even no3, he is a good player, i love his energy and aggression, but there are better suited out there, because i believe rafa is more of a football manager, unlike houlier who youd think baros would of been more suited to his methods of kick & run but couldnt get a look in, how many goals away in the prem has he notched.
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Re: Saviour or urban myth?
« Reply #19 on: December 22, 2004, 10:24:16 pm »
In a far less reasoned post than John's:

He tries hard, he's scored some crucial goals - but I don't feel anything towards him in comparison to the likes of Owen, Fowler etc etc.  I see flaws every time I see him play, and I don't think he's ever going to be the finished article.
Finally - I don't think he'll be at the club in a year's time, and I don't think he gives a toss about us.

No reason for that mind...but still...it's there.
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Re: Saviour or urban myth?
« Reply #20 on: December 22, 2004, 10:40:54 pm »
46 games started for us have seen 21 goals from him.

And defenders are scared shit of him.

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Re: Saviour or urban myth?
« Reply #21 on: December 22, 2004, 10:51:35 pm »
he's definitely improving, probably 'cos of rafa's philosophy on the way the game is best played. still has a lot to learn and i agree he needs to be more of a team player but as we saw with the pass through to mellor for his goal against newcastle, he is obviously listening to what the boss has to say. you would have thought he would have taken that on himself, especially after him being pissed off earlier on when mellor took a shot himself when baros was wide open. one thing i don't like, is he goes down to easy sometimes looking for freekicks and pens, he doesn't want to get himself a name for diving, also fuck barca he needs to realize he should feel privileged playing for Liverpool F.C. we are not a stepping stone, it doesn't get any better than this
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Re: Saviour or urban myth?
« Reply #22 on: December 22, 2004, 10:58:02 pm »


Liverpool fans appear to have this peculiar knack of adoring strikers that are nowhere near the best. Aldridge was constantly compared to Rush, in a derogatory manner, during the 87-88 season, only after his departure was he truly appreciated.

Don't quite get this part of your argument, John. You seem to be making one point, and trying to support it with an example of the opposite?

Largely, I agree with your view of Baros. I certainly don't see him as the long term answer to our striking needs. I was much more excited about Cisse. I only hope he makes a full recovery.
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Re: Saviour or urban myth?
« Reply #23 on: December 22, 2004, 10:58:09 pm »
First season as first choice, he knocking them in lets just see what he does with a run this year.

I would take a shit player scoring 20 a year rather than a class one scoring 10- give him chance and lets see the outcome...
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Offline Holiara

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Re: Saviour or urban myth?
« Reply #24 on: December 22, 2004, 11:01:06 pm »
I can't help it, but I like the way he plays even though sometimes he can be frustrating. En plus, I think that he is very talented and the run he gets right now is exactly what he needed. Like many strikers Milan too is a confidence player and when he plays well and the crowd cheer him on I truly believe that he gets a real push. Concerning the team work I see improvement every game - one reason might be that he has more confidence and doesn't feel so much pressure to impress. He is not the finished article yet which is hardly a miracle at his age, but I think in Rafa he has the right manager to teach him without changing him too much. Are there better strikers out there right now? Yes. Does Milan have the talent to be truly great? Yes, I honestly think so and hope we will see some of that at LFC and not against some other club in a CL game.  I want him to stay.

I wouldn't want to build a team around any kind of single player. If he gets injured that disrupts everything. Other teams are bound to know and do everything to stop that player. A team would be nearly perfect, if they could perform top class no matter who is on the field together.

Offline john_mac

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Re: Saviour or urban myth?
« Reply #25 on: December 22, 2004, 11:06:14 pm »
Don't quite get this part of your argument, John. You seem to be making one point, and trying to support it with an example of the opposite?

Largely, I agree with your view of Baros. I certainly don't see him as the long term answer to our striking needs. I was much more excited about Cisse. I only hope he makes a full recovery.

The point is that it does not seem to matter how much some players do, they are never appreciated in the way that others are. aldridge was excellent in that first season but all anybody wanted to talk about was how many Rush would have scored in that team.

I would take a shit player scoring 20 a year rather than a class one scoring 10- give him chance and lets see the outcome...

I'm sorry, I don't agree its how the team perform, always above the individual David Johnson outscored Kenny in 79, was he more important to the team? John Aldridge outscored both Barnes and Beardsley in 87, more important? Not in my eyes.

Its about how individuals work within the team and what they they bring to that team.

It was something that I felt about McManaman, even though he was the best player in the team for  aperiod, he dictated the pattern of play too muchand the team overall suffered as a result of Evans insistance on building the team around his strengths.

I just feel that Milan, good a player as he is, not good enough to carry us forward at the expense of teh style of the team.
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Re: Saviour or urban myth?
« Reply #26 on: December 22, 2004, 11:14:43 pm »
I have to say I'm really surprised with some responses so far. I'm happy to wait and see what happens this season, but from what I've seen we have a 23-year old who is only this season getting a good run of games to prove himself, has been generally excellent so far this season making a key difference in some games and has a world-class scoring record with a European country including top-scorerin a major international tournament, in the only other area (internationals) that he can prove himself in. He's got a good shot, guile with his finishing, enough pace, he's strong, very hard working, can beat his man, is a decent header of the ball...sure he's got some weaknesses, such as his head-down play, but these are areas he can work on - he's only 23! And he's shown he's working and improving.

I'm sorry, I just don't get it. I'm with Paul Tomkins here. I'm not calling him a world-beater just yet, but I'm amazed that people can be doubting his excellent qualities at this stage. I for one am perfectly happy for us to build around him as a focal point for our attack. If it doesn't turn out well, then so be it, but on the evidence so far, he absolutely deserves to be where he is - as our number one striker.
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Re: Saviour or urban myth?
« Reply #27 on: December 22, 2004, 11:18:16 pm »
The point is that it does not seem to matter how much some players do, they are never appreciated in the way that others are. aldridge was excellent in that first season but all anybody wanted to talk about was how many Rush would have scored in that team.

I follow now, John. Sorry, I've had a few.

Having watched him play a bit at Tranmere as well after his return from Sociedad, I can honestly say that Aldridge was THE most natural finisher I've ever seen play the game, bar none (Fowler and Rush included). He still has the league goal scoring record to prove it.

In an age where every pundit going is creaming their kecks over Thierry Henry's silky skills, there's a lot to be said for a player who'd rather score 400+ goals than do 400+ keepie-ups.
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Re: Saviour or urban myth?
« Reply #28 on: December 22, 2004, 11:22:16 pm »
Farman it’s all about opinions, what don’t you get?  We’re all entitled to them, even the ones that don’t match yours.

No one is slaging the lad, no one wants him dropped/sold only some are not as convinced s others with regards to his ability, simple.
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Re: Saviour or urban myth?
« Reply #29 on: December 22, 2004, 11:27:06 pm »
Farman it’s all about opinions, what don’t you get?  We’re all entitled to them, even the ones that don’t match yours.

No one is slaging the lad, no one wants him dropped/sold only some are not as convinced s others with regards to his ability, simple.


Of course its opinions, its the opinions I don't get! Fair enough if people aren't convinced (as I said I'm not totally convinced he is THE answer) I'm just surprised people have reached those conclusions based on the fact that they've been seeing the same things I've been seeing.
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Re: Saviour or urban myth?
« Reply #30 on: December 22, 2004, 11:30:52 pm »
Of course its opinions, its the opinions I don't get! Fair enough if people aren't convinced (as I said I'm not totally convinced he is THE answer) I'm just surprised people have reached those conclusions based on the fact that they've been seeing the same things I've been seeing.

But isn’t that how football works? No one stands in agreement as one....

I've been far from convinced right from the off - I seen nothing other than a bloody frustrating player, of late I'm changing my mind somewhat - he's getting better and long may that continue.
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Re: Saviour or urban myth?
« Reply #31 on: December 22, 2004, 11:45:06 pm »
The overwhelming adoration of Milan is indeed a strange thing. In our club's colours he has yet to prove it. Not to say he won't, just that he hasn't yet. So why should he be such a cult favourite? He's no Mad Eric personality wise, and as yet he hasn't proven he's up there with Fowler and Owen on the pitch.

All strikers have their different assets and styles of play - as far as I'm concerned comparing Milan to Kenny is unfair in the sense that Kenny was a creative type player, Milan is a goalscorer. Both types of player are needed in a team. I understand the point you're making that the team is far more important than the individual, but great teams have been made up of such a different range of player types that what can make up a great team, and what is likely to is very much a matter of opinion.

This season, Bolton aside, Milan has impressed me with a lot of what he's done. He has learnt to hold the ball up consistently and bring others into the game, he has got his head up more, he can play a pass every once in a while, he still causes terror down the channels and his scoring record has been above 1 in every 2. He has scored crucial goals against Blackburn and Palace. He has played well in both good and indifferent team performances - he has never gone missing. This is the first time he's had a regular run in the side, so you need to cut him a little slack if he's not up there with Fowler/Owen yet. I see evidence that his game is progressing this year and his goal record this season is certainly impressive.

As I see it, my view is probably somewhere between the various views expressed here. I don't see that Milan warrants being a fans' favourite yet. I believe he does have things to prove and flaws in his game that do need addressing if he's to be a first choice striker for us long term. However, I see signs that the flaws are being addressed, that his potential is starting to be fulfilled, that my confidence in his ability as a fan is improving and that he can certainly score goals. I also see more signs that his teammates are beginning to accept him.
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Re: Saviour or urban myth?
« Reply #32 on: December 22, 2004, 11:45:27 pm »
I know you're entitled to your opinion, but that's a really strange post, John. You've clearly thought about it alot, but.....

Hard-working, direct, awkward - absolutely. Classy and skilful as well IMO. Controls the ball well, has it at his feet, can twist and turn and pull players all over the place. Attributes that Rush, Aldridge, Owen, and Fowler never had. Well, maybe Owen had it - for a time though not anymore. Doesn't naturally score as well as any of them but not his natural game - he's not naturally an 'out and out' goalscorer. He's in different league to the likes of Rosenthal and Camara - both of whom were nothing more than squad players - who albeit added something to the team when they came in.

I have to admit that I've never seen a player like Baros before in terms of the way he plays. You have your 'out and out' goalscorers, your target men and your withdrawn strikers but Baros is none of them. He drops off, but his natural game isn't necessarily to supply the other striker or feed passes (though this is something he occasionally does). He's not a Litmanen or Bergkamp.He pops up and scores goals, but neither is he naturally an out and out goalscorer. He runs the channels but in no way is he a wide man. In fact, when he does that, he reminds me of the way that Shevchenko and Rebrov used to play for Kiev when they first came onto the scene. They'd start out wide and run in towards goal, slaloming through defences. But neither is he a Shevchenko or a Rebrov.

When he first came onto the scene, I have to admit that I couldn't decide what sort of a player he was. I just wonder whether your doubts are because of the difficulty in pigeonholing him?

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Re: Saviour or urban myth?
« Reply #33 on: December 22, 2004, 11:47:57 pm »
John..i'm with you. I agree Milan is a good striker. But one to build a team around or be the team player Rafa may require to fully put into effect the attacking style he has in mind still is a question mark.

People are quoting Milans goal stats. Fair enough. He's done well for his Country. He's banged a few in for us this season.

But get a little deeper into Milan and his goal scoring. He does it best when there are 2 strikers on the pitch. He plays off Koller and scores at a very good rate. He did well with Mellor on the pitch because Mellor, like Koller plugs up the middle and occupies two central defenders.

When Milan has been the single striker, and that's Rafa's preferred system, He finds himself marked out of the match and running into blind corners. His goal scoring drops off considerably.

So the question is, Milan works hard in the channels, beats people on the wings, chases over the pitch, but can he adapt to how Rafa wants to play?

Can he beat central defenders and get goals? So far he beats people out on the wings where defenders know they have help in the middle. Name the goals he's scored when he's taken a pass near the top of the box, turned, beat defenders, and scored? This is something Cisse was doing in France. It is something Owen could do. And St Mike wasn't the biggest of strikers. He'd burst past them with his speed. Milan can beat defenders when he's got the ball 30 yards from the goal and runs at them but rarely does he do it with his back to the goal from the start.

He needs to improve his ability to play off the shoulder of the last central defender, control the ball ( and not let it bounce 10 yards away) and beat him. Then he'll fit better into Rafa's system.

Naturally we all hope Milan improves, Rafa teaches him, he takes what he needs to on board, and his improvement helps us secure more victories.
 
Otherwise, Milan will be more frustrated with Rafa's system. Rafa wants not only strikers to score but he's requiring our midfield to get forward and help. As seen with Didi getting forward. Even Carra's been getting into the box. Which is why Rafa prefers a 4-2-3-1 system. It's what he will use the most. It's what he beat Real Madrid and Barca with to win the League.
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Re: Saviour or urban myth?
« Reply #34 on: December 22, 2004, 11:48:58 pm »
It was something that I felt about McManaman, even though he was the best player in the team for  aperiod, he dictated the pattern of play too muchand the team overall suffered as a result of Evans insistance on building the team around his strengths.

I just feel that Milan, good a player as he is, not good enough to carry us forward at the expense of teh style of the team.

Good point on Macca, and its one of the reasons why he never truly blossomed for England - he couldnt dictate how he wanted to.

I dont personnally think the Baros has that much influence overall to the teams style of play. Esp not to Rafa's team.

I can see Rafa's influence beginning to show on Baros and he seems to be fitting to our system rather than the other way round.

Also, I dont think the supporters in general rate him quite as highly as you think (i.e as being better Owen). Some of his popularity has been cult-based, and that he tends to make things happen.

Its only this season that we've seen a real end product to the talent

Dont worry if hes not the best player long-term, we've still got Cisse and another top striker to come. Either way he's worth way more now than we paid for him both in contribution and in resale value  :wave
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Re: Saviour or urban myth?
« Reply #35 on: December 22, 2004, 11:53:25 pm »
Consigliere, just wanted to say that I really enjoyed your response to John's thoughts. You reasoned it out really well, and raised an interesting question about the "pigeonholing" of strikers. Nice one.
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Re: Saviour or urban myth?
« Reply #36 on: December 23, 2004, 12:03:50 am »
Ok maybe he isnt an owen fowler, but few are, and it is silly trying to compare players of other years like rush n dalglish to players now. Yes, they are true legends, but u cant judge which players are the best in the world today, agaisnt the best in the world yesterday. We have to see milan against the rest of the strikers today, and for me, he does compare favourably. John mentioned relying on his predictabilty as a negative asset, but i think thats what makes milan so great, excitement, and more and more often these days, he does have something to deliver at the end. He's still only young too, and he's got goals in him, he's improving all the time, and for me, he has got the will to win, a huge asset. Even if he did lack ability, which i dont think he does, at least he does chase lost causes and makes something otu of nothing, things that strikers like henry might not do, run 30 yrds just to see a ball out for a corner. Also, in the baros-contract thread, there was a quote from paolo maldini about baros being a very difficult player to play against, and that was the start of 2 seasons ago. If im unqualified to comment, i think paolo deserves a say.
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Re: Saviour or urban myth?
« Reply #37 on: December 23, 2004, 12:08:40 am »
He scores goals and win us games and more importantly points. But i still don't like the kid, it's just something about him i've never taking a shine to him i don't think i ever will.
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Re: Saviour or urban myth?
« Reply #38 on: December 23, 2004, 12:09:02 am »
Rafas gonna flog him this summer or next jan.
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Re: Saviour or urban myth?
« Reply #39 on: December 23, 2004, 12:11:20 am »
Ok maybe he isnt an owen fowler, but few are

I've never had the pleasure of seeing this Owen Fowler geezer play. With a name like that, he's got a lot to live up to.
If im unqualified to comment, i think paolo deserves a say.

Speak up for yourself Paulo lad!
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