Author Topic: Rebuilding the Champions of Europe  (Read 11341 times)

Offline Paul Tomkins

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Rebuilding the Champions of Europe
« on: June 6, 2005, 09:50:14 am »
So who won Liverpool the European Cup? The manager? The players? Obviously, it was a mixture of both. Rafa's tactics were crucial, but it was the players –– many of whom were regarded as inferior to the standards Liverpool expect –– putting them into play. So how come this side who achieved something remarkable is being broken up? Is this wise? And to what extent will this side be reshaped and remodelled?

   One maxim holds true: it's always best to sign players when in a position of strength, and, unexpectedly, after defeating AC Milan, that's certainly the case now. Liverpool's stock on the continent is the highest it's been for two decades.

   Given that 12 of the 14 who featured in Istanbul were players Rafa inherited, it stands to reason that he would rather mould his own team than continue to remould Gérard Houllier's. That was always going to be the case. Weaknesses still exist in the side, but if the league inconsistency (partly down to the worst injury list the club has ever seen) suggests the team is nowhere near good enough, the European Cup victory tells otherwise.

   So the truth must be somewhere in between.

   The way AC Milan outplayed Liverpool in the first half highlights how far the team has to go to be considered the best footballing side around; the character it showed in the second half proves that something special exists within the squad: no other team in the Premiership came from behind at half-time to win as often as Liverpool (four times), and the Reds did it twice in the Champions League, too.

   Let's get one thing straight for starters: there was nothing fortuitous about this success. Some of the laughable attempts by Evertonians and others to discredit the achievement, and the moronic lengths they have been going to (some have said lucky), merely highlights how good it was. One Evertonian wrote to Uefa to say that Liverpool only won the competition due to a dodgy decision against Chelsea. He's on thin ice, especially as Zoo magazine's League of Justice –– where a "real" Premiership table is constructed to reflect what would have happened had referees not made grave mistakes –– had Manchester City above Everton, and both below Liverpool. In terms of refereeing mistakes, Liverpool were hardest hit in the league.

   This was one of the greatest European Cup wins of all time –– not just the final, but the whole campaign. The group stages pitted the Reds against two of last season's semi-finalists (neither of whom were as good this year, but still had bags of experience), and the best team from the country which had just won Euro 2004, with many of those very same players. Having looked set for a creditable draw in Monaco, which would make progress to the knockout stages a possibility, the referee allowed Saviola to control with his hand before scoring, and suddenly Liverpool had to beat Olympiakos by two clear goals in the final game –– and were 1-0 down at half-time. You know the rest...

   Bayer Leverkusen were finalists as recently as 2002, and were fresh from topping a group containing Real Madrid and Roma, both of whom they thrashed at home. Juventus were finalists in 2003, and Italian champions elect. Chelsea were the most bankrolled team in the competition, and confirmed as English champions between the first and second legs. They too were semi-finalists the year before. Finally, Milan, with their collection of ultra-expensive megastars: winners in 2003, reigning Italian champions, and the second-most bankrolled team in the competition.

   Let's put this in context. In order to reach the final in 1985, Liverpool played just eight games –– four ties. The teams beaten along the way? Lech Poznan, Benfica, Austria Vienna and Panathinaikos. This year's success was a monumental effort by comparison.

   So why the restructuring? This may not be an awesome team, but it has achieved something unbelievable. And how much will be different next season merely due to having (hopefully) a fully fit squad? This summer will feel like buying Cissé, Alonso,  Kirkland, Morientes and possibly even the Leeds-version of Harry Kewell, now his troublesome groin has finally been operated on. (I may be alone in that hope.) Sinama-Pongolle, given the progress he was making and how young he is, is another who can be expected to take his game to another level. Then there is Rafa himself, who now knows what is expected.

   I include Morientes in the above list as we'd be so excited if it was only now that he was signing. As it stands, he's now had that difficult six months to settle in, and come August he will have a proper pre-season's training behind him. We saw with Steve Finnan how even a move within your own domestic league can result in a period of uncertain form. The second season is always easier for overseas players.


Targets

I touched upon the issue of Peter Crouch last week, but I want to expand on the idea of tactical flexibility.

   One thing that impressed me about Everton was the way they could throw on Duncan Ferguson to change games; Moyes gave up on the idea of him as a first choice,  opting for the quicker, more skilful Marcus Bent, and used old 'Tampon' as a successful last resort. He won them lots of points, as hard as it was on the eyes of the purist. Peter Crouch is less aggressive (and certainly far less dirty), but he is taller, and has a better touch (so you don't have to go to his head all the time).

   You need to understand the mentality of a tired back four. Sometimes something different can upset their rhythm: be it a quick striker replacing a targetman, or a super-tall forward to change the angle of attacks. Anything to knock the opposition from their comfort zone.

   Everton were getting nowhere against Liverpool at Anfield in March, until they resorted to long balls. They did so too early in the game, and from too deep at times, but late on it started to cause problems. They were totally outclassed for 70 minutes, but came close to snatching an unlikely point.

   It doesn't mean I want to see the Reds resorting to punt after punt, and I don't for one moment expect Rafa to make us 'long-ball' after he (thankfully) made us a passing side again, but it's nice to have the choice. At times last season, substituting Baros, Cissé and Sinama-Pongolle for one another was a case of swapping like-for-like. You got the freshness of the new player, but not necessarily one who posed a new problem.

   William Gallas, for example, is a supreme defender. I've seen him match Thierry Henry stride for stride, and mark him out of games. But could he, given his height, deal with Peter Crouch? That's the beauty of football: different players have different strengths, and as such, lesser talents can at times prove equally as effective as their betters. An awkward customer has his uses. We all mocked Didier Drogba as he stumbled about and missed chances, but I keep harking back to how, at times, Chelsea just lumped it forward to him, and then had their tricky midfielders pick up the pieces.

   Although they amassed 95 points, I keep hearing how Chelsea would have finished with 110 had they possessed a striker like Shevchenko. But he's a different type of player. Sheva may have scored 40 goals for himself from through balls, but the Chelsea midfield would arguably have scored far less. Chelsea's three goalscoring midfielders –– Lampard, Robben and Duff –– don't possess a great physical presence, so someone to hold the ball up or win headers was what they fed off. They arrived into the box as the ball fell their way. Drogba was a key part of Chelsea's tactics –– they won the league with him, not in spite of him.

   How would Luis Garcia fare with a player like Crouch to play off? Far better than when playing with Baros (a better 'individual' footballer than Crouch), I suspect. So much of Benítez' gameplan is about getting midfielders to support the lone striker. Maybe Crouch could help in that regard. Luis Garcia scored 13 goals from open play –– our top scorer in those terms. Take away Frank Lampard's free-kicks and penalties, and I doubt he scored many more.

   As I always said of Emile Heskey, if Liverpool had gone on to win the league with him in the side, it wouldn't have mattered if he scored just one goal a season –– I'd say he was good enough. It's not what the individual does as an individual, it's what the team achieves with him in the side. The problem with Heskey was that without enough goalscoring midfielders, it fell upon his shoulders to score 20 a season –– as only Owen was regularly weighing in. In leaving Owen and Heskey marooned up front with the midfield 40 yards behind, the two forwards were often the only two within striking distance of goal.

   As perverse as it sounds, I'd be no more excited by seeing Raúl at Liverpool than Crouch. The Spaniard is possibly ten times the player Crouch will ever be. But other doubts exist about him. His understanding with Morientes would present the greatest reason for optimism. But a superstar who has had two poor seasons is not necessarily the way forward. Either way, I'd trust Rafa on who he buys, as only he and his staff know why he is signing someone. It's not to win a game of Championship Manager or Fantasy Football, that's one thing we can rest assured on.

   Raúl's name was probably mentioned because he is Spanish, and therefore he must be destined for Liverpool. Jose Reina of Villarreal seems the most likely La Liga target, and he's clearly a very special young goalkeeper. That he faced Liverpool for Barcelona in 2001, as an 18-year-old, tells you that he has been highly regarded for some time. Is he better than Kirkland? Well, after his back operation, the young Englishman should finally be fit to take his place in goal.

   There will be a few signings from Spain, as that's the market Rafa knows best, and where his reputation holds most sway over the players. Vicente, Aimar and Ayala remain players everyone would like to see at Liverpool, but with Kluivert going to Valencia it lessens the chance of a swap deal that would see Baros going the other way. Elsewhere, Real Zaragoza defender Gabriel Milito is very highly regarded, and I can believe the reported interest there: centre back remains an area where we lack options. Meanwhile, Fernando Torres and Joaquin are Spaniards we will surely be interested in, if the price isn't too obscene.

   One name mentioned in recent weeks has been Owen Hargreaves, and he's the kind of player the squad could use. Although he's not used to the Premiership (bizarrely, for an Englishman), he has pace, stamina, commitment, a professional 'winning' attitude, and is a fine passer of the ball –– all for £4m or less, given he has only one year left on his contract at Bayern. Not a 'glory' player, but the kind of footballer who acts as the glue to hold a team together. Crucially, he has big game experience (Champions League final, World Cup), and has spent his entire career at a major club: I'm always happier when we buy players used to the unique pressure of playing for clubs like Bayern Munich, Barcelona and Real Madrid.

   Which takes me to another Owen: Michael. I can't see him being eager to leave Madrid, having eventually proven himself in La Liga. But much depends on who Madrid sign over the summer, and where he features in the manager's plans; any further down the pecking order, and he might be packing his bags. If there's one player who we can feel 100% sure would settle at the club, it is Owen.

   Shaun Wright-Phillips is another much-coveted player, but his price tag would leave little spare cash for any other players. Matthew Upson is a talented defender, and is yet another example of a centre back who has come of age in his mid-20s, having struggled at Arsenal as a youngster. Like Ledley King and Jamie Carragher, he has emerged as a top defender upon reaching footballing maturity. He is looking to leave Birmingham, and he is well worth a look.

   Although the price is often prohibitive, I expect Rafa to sign some players from the Premiership. In cases like Upton, a contract dispute is often the route in.
   

Heading for the exit

So is it too obvious to say that with better players, Benítez can achieve better things? Of course, it doesn't have to mean better players, just players better suited to the system Rafa likes to employ. More natural talent is always welcome, and the addition of world-class flair is never to be sneezed at, but it is the manager's overall masterplan which matters most.

   Make too many changes and you risk losing continuity. If players like Igor Biscan, Jerzy Dudek and Djimi Traore need improving upon (they seem to be three of the more frequently mentioned players), then you risk losing a long-established element of the squad. Those three, for example, have been in the English game, and at Liverpool, between four and six years. In fact, you could argue that Igor Biscan has only just settled.

   I don't have the slightest problem with Rafa buying players to improve upon those, and others in the squad. But it may lead to a second transitional season (not that the first was a disaster, after Istanbul!). The new players will need to acclimatise, adjust to the pace, blend with their colleagues' games, and learn to understand the way Benítez works –– not all will settle as quickly as Alonso. As I said, I don't have a problem with that. But others may: winning the European Cup might lead to some fans getting carried away.

   If Rafa has to rebuild, then there may be more transitional blips. One thing I feel is that even if Traore, Biscan, and one or two others, have left doubts in the manager's mind, you cannot deny that they have proved very valuable squad players. If your reserves are too good then you just end up with a collection of unhappy players rocking the boat and looking to leave at the first opportunity. If squad players still meed to have the desire and ambition to play, they also need to be patient enough to bide their time.

   So, much depends on who Rafa buys and how quickly they settle. Whatever happens, this time next year I expect to have seen a marked improvement in the league, and a Champions League place secured without too many worries. We may well end up empty-handed, though: a better team who ends up less covered in glory.

   If we finish 3rd, ten points behind the champions, will everyone be happy?

© Paul Tomkins 2005

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« Last Edit: June 6, 2005, 11:11:09 am by Rushian »

Offline Indi

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Re: Rebuilding the Champions of Europe
« Reply #1 on: June 6, 2005, 10:24:50 am »
Good article. I agree that we cant afford to sell too many players because a) they are settled to the premiership b) What if we have another injury crisis? I think next year we should aim to close the gap significantly to Chelsea by about 15 points, it will take time for our new signings to settle in.

Offline Hattori Hanzo

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Re: Rebuilding the Champions of Europe
« Reply #2 on: June 6, 2005, 10:26:16 am »
nice post, i think the reason why people get worried about some of the signings we are linked with (crouch, hargreaves et al) is because they think they are being bought for the first team, but i dont think they are, they are squad players (that doesn't mean players that sit on the bench btw ;))

i think we need three/four first team players and 4/5 squad players/crouch quality and then we will have a fantastic mix

as for SWP, i consider his price a bargain at 20 million. we will be mugs and regret it forever if we miss out and he goes to another club

and about next season, i want to be at most 5 points behind chelsea, is it that unrealistic? i dont think so we are pretty much fortress anfield and if we cut out just 8 of those 11 away defeats (teams like southampton/everton/bolton/birmingham/etc etc) then that is a massive gap closed.... with some more fit players and some new signings i think it will be reduced bigtime
« Last Edit: June 6, 2005, 10:29:11 am by Prongsy »

Offline mercury

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Re: Rebuilding the Champions of Europe
« Reply #3 on: June 6, 2005, 10:30:40 am »
As good as ever.

I am all excited with the "rumours" of Upson, Owen Hargreaves, and more recenty Scott Partker, all good players to have, and as you said, who would help glue the team.  It's great that of the bunch you mentioned Hamann and Traore look like staying.  With them, and with some first choice in this summer, finally we'll have some depth in the squad.  As for Igor, I'd love him to stay as well, but he probably deserves first team football in a leagie more suitable for him.

Some questions on the striker line up though.  A target man like Crouch certainly has his use - it's all about balance and options as you rightly pointed out - but isn't Morientes supposed to be our target man?  Many close followers of La Liga vouch for Raul's revivial in the past six months as the team finally play to his strength.  Imagine something like this, which I pluck from YNWA forum:

Raul:  intelligence, link man
Morientes:  strength, good in air
Cisse:  power and pace
Sinama Pongolle:  tricky, fast

The options there for us!!  All except Sinama, who is yet to prove as a striker, can easily do a double figure each season!!  There's not much chance of signing Raul really but I can't help but excited when he is is linked to us.  And mind you, he's only 27!

(and a word about Drunken, he is a fine footballer with a surprisingly good touch and I doubt Crouch is better than him in this regard.  His temperament, as we all know, is his downfall.)

cheers  :wave
« Last Edit: June 6, 2005, 10:32:37 am by mercury »

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Re: Rebuilding the Champions of Europe
« Reply #4 on: June 6, 2005, 10:36:01 am »
Bloody advertising :p (just wait till I start selling the t-shirt line ;))

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Offline ghandi

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Re: Rebuilding the Champions of Europe
« Reply #5 on: June 6, 2005, 10:54:44 am »
After Istanbul i would,t mind if we won a cup and finished 2nd/3rd closing the gap to around 5 to 10 points . I would see this as a successful season if we actually didn't win the thing. The following year will be the one we really make a bid for top slot. Although after Istanbul rafa can pull anything out of the bag! ;D
« Last Edit: June 6, 2005, 12:42:02 pm by Rushian »

Offline mercury

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Re: Rebuilding the Champions of Europe
« Reply #6 on: June 6, 2005, 10:58:19 am »
After Istanbul i would,t mind if we won a cup and finished 2nd/3rd closing the gap to around 5 to 10 points . I would see this as a successful season if we actually didn't win the thing. The following year will be the one we really make a bid for top slot. Although after Istanbul rafa can pull anything out of the bag! ;D

same view and sentiments here  :P :wave
« Last Edit: June 6, 2005, 12:42:15 pm by Rushian »

Offline Xabi-Pure art

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Re: Rebuilding the Champions of Europe
« Reply #7 on: June 6, 2005, 11:22:40 am »
i think we need three/four first team players and 4/5 squad players/crouch quality and then we will have a fantastic mix

I totally agree, but we can't afford to buy squad players for 5 mill and more each.
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Offline sunilo

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Re: Rebuilding the Champions of Europe
« Reply #8 on: June 6, 2005, 11:35:10 am »
Good one again. Writing what some of us are thinking but lack the ability to put into words. :)

Offline Gnurglan

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Re: Rebuilding the Champions of Europe
« Reply #9 on: June 6, 2005, 12:40:37 pm »
We are the Champions of Europe.

That means we must strengthen the team, more than ever. While I recognise the need for time, I also think it's dangerous to hide behind it. It's time for us to put our flag down and be prepared to defend our position as Champions. Instead of seeing it as our cause to catch up with Chelsea, we need some "let them worry about us, we are the European Cup winners". Not because we are an overall better side than them. We just need to have that belief. It would be wrong to stand back and claim we are not ready as a team. It's not about being overconfident, it's more a case of using the belief that made us win the CL. If we can turn 0-3 vs Milan, we can do anything. And everyone knows we can do it. Let's use it to gain an advantage. Use the momentum. It may be a bit hollow, but I reckon it will work. If we retreat to rebuild, we may avoid getting a few bruises, but it's better to defend our position and fail. At some point we need to act like Champions. There can be no better time than this.

I believe we have the squad players. We have too many of them. We need first picks. There are a few areas where we are sorted. For example, our least qualified keeper, Carson, was last seen in the England squad. Up front our main problem is said to be Milan Baros, who ironically finished our top scorer. He's a luxuary problem in comparison. In central midfield (should Didi and/or Igor stay), we are well covered (our 3rd pick - Didi- turned the CL Final around). You all know where I think we need to strengthen. It's about a real first pick LB, the next great CB and the winger or the central creator, depending on where we play Garcia.

While I understand the need for options such as Crouch and Upson, I'm against signing them this season. We can sign them any year. We should aim higher. Much higher. Let's fax to get Joaquin/SWP/Aimar/Raul/Owen & Co and see what happens. (Yes, if we can get Owen, I'll happily sacrifice either Baros or Cisse if necessary). I believe top clubs across Europe fear a bid from LFC for one of their stars. I really do. We won the CL (feels good to repeat that). No-one can have failed to be impressed by our comeback. People are aware we have money and they know we have Benitez. Not least will players have been impressed by the supporters during our CL campaign.

        * * * * * *


"The key isn't the system itself, but how the players adapt on the pitch. It doesn't matter if it's 4-3-3 or 4-4-2, it's the role of the players that counts." Rafa Benitez

Offline BCCC

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Re: Rebuilding the Champions of Europe
« Reply #10 on: June 6, 2005, 12:42:01 pm »

A good read that. One worry for me is the emphasis on a big (as in height) player. Yes it's good to have the option but only of use in the PL though. I'd hate to think that we would've opted for someone like Peter Crouch at half time in the CL final and I'm pretty sure we wouldn't have won if we did. I'm not saying that Rafa would even have gone for that option if available but it was just good to see that with a little tactical re-organisation we were able to take the game to Milan.

Everton did use Ferguson effectively last term but it didn't work the season before that when they were almost relegated. Quality center backs don't normally have a problem with a big physical player but most of them do have a problem with pace and direct running.

The biggest priority for me is to replace Owen, and by that I mean a 20+ goal a season striker.
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Offline Emperor

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Re: Rebuilding the Champions of Europe
« Reply #11 on: June 6, 2005, 12:55:25 pm »
As far as 20 goal a season strikers go, Kuyt IS the solution. Watching him for Holland and scoring reaffirmed my long standing faith in the lad from Utrecht, and I hope Benitez gets him before his price rockets to 20 million next season.
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Offline sunilo

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Re: Rebuilding the Champions of Europe
« Reply #12 on: June 6, 2005, 01:15:32 pm »
I haven't seen Kuyt play, but I like dutch players. They always seem to be technically very good.

Hopefully we can get Zenden too, which would be a good signing on a free.

Offline GingerRed

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Re: Rebuilding the Champions of Europe
« Reply #13 on: June 6, 2005, 01:17:39 pm »
BCCC,

You only have to look at Chelsea again, really. The 'big man upfront' tactics worked a treat against Bayern Munich. I'm not saying it's pretty football - it isn't - but if the target man can win balls and either have a decent effort himself, or bring other players into the game, then he's a very good asset for the club.
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Re: Rebuilding the Champions of Europe
« Reply #14 on: June 6, 2005, 02:16:35 pm »
As far as 20 goal a season strikers go, Kuyt IS the solution. Watching him for Holland and scoring reaffirmed my long standing faith in the lad from Utrecht, and I hope Benitez gets him before his price rockets to 20 million next season.
hm a big friend of mine - Feye's and Dudek's fan does believe that Kuyt - fantastic player and so on... BUT he don't know if EPL is his league. He also thing that he'll play not better than Kluivert or Tomasson...
So I'm not sure is it right to give even 10 mil for him... as far as I concern - he will move to some attacking club like Barcelona... 'cause EPL is too rough for him

Offline Bluto-clause

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Re: Rebuilding the Champions of Europe
« Reply #15 on: June 6, 2005, 02:23:38 pm »
In reply to the question asked in the first sentence of the article, who won the cup, the players or the manager?
I would like to add to that, The fans.

At half time we were all holding our scarves in the air, singing You'll never walk alone. we took up 80% of the stadium, most of us were in tears. but at the end of the song we gave ourselves a huge cheer which kept growing louder. in my opinion the genius that started the chant "were gonna win 4-3". deserves a load of credit for us winning the cup. we kept that up untill the teams returned, and from then on every time a milan player touched the ball we gave him a roasting. That one moment for me was when the atmosphere in the stadium changed and the tables were turned.
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Offline Red-juvenated

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Re: Rebuilding the Champions of Europe
« Reply #16 on: June 6, 2005, 02:27:43 pm »
Good call Paul.

Rafa has always maintained that he needs players with the right mental attitude - mainly that of being a team player. Since he needs good quality depth in squad for the seasonlong campaign, his players must be willing to sit out some games. It is very unlikely that 'star' players would be happy with that, so I think the type of players he wants to bring are unlikely to be established stars, more like 'stars-in-the-making'. Very difficult to find such players, but those that see the long term benefits of playing for LFC know they could become legends. Player changes have to be made gradually to enable a rhythm to be built (something we couldn't achieve last term, mainly due to injuries).

Agreed again about players leaving. The likes of Biscan and Traore would preferably be retained as quality squad players, very essential to the plan. Rafa would have a clear idea of those players who lack that mental attitude or are not fit to mount a challenge, and they would essentially be shipped out.
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Offline SMD

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Re: Rebuilding the Champions of Europe
« Reply #17 on: June 6, 2005, 02:46:43 pm »
I'd rather Kuyt over Raul because while experience is all nice and lovely, sometimes you have a set up that flourishes on raw hunger. Gerrard, Alonso, etc - they have that hunger and now they have big game experience. Re-signing Hamann would be great for the midfield, while Morientes can play that role for the strikers and funnily enough, Hyypia and Carra have now won almost everything going. Just need that league winners' medal to complete the collection.

Then we can do it all again ;D
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Offline Darren Page1

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Re: Rebuilding the Champions of Europe
« Reply #18 on: June 6, 2005, 02:48:27 pm »
I agree with Gnurglan --as crazy as it may seem to expect the Premier league this year--we are champions of Europe. And shouldnt feel second best or inferior to anyone

Offline sunilo

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Re: Rebuilding the Champions of Europe
« Reply #19 on: June 6, 2005, 03:00:11 pm »
Yes I agree, if we are in the Champions League again I think a lot of teams will fear us. Especially the Italian and Spanish sides. We are getting our reputation back. Anfield is considered a fortress once more.

We shouldn't fear anyone, but build on what we have achieved this year. That means improving our Premiership form and at least being up there challenging for the title for some part of the season, and trying to do well again in Europe where we now have some experienced players.

Offline BazC

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Re: Rebuilding the Champions of Europe
« Reply #20 on: June 6, 2005, 03:28:44 pm »
well in, brilliant analysis and comments on transfers etc.

you never cease to amaze tompkins  ;D :wave
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Offline Red Lozza

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Re: Rebuilding the Champions of Europe
« Reply #21 on: June 6, 2005, 04:25:49 pm »
Interesting read as ever, Paul!
William Gallas, for example, is a supreme defender. I've seen him match Thierry Henry stride for stride, and mark him out of games. But could he, given his height, deal with Peter Crouch? That's the beauty of football: different players have different strengths, and as such, lesser talents can at times prove equally as effective as their betters.

Good point, that. Rafa already knows how to make effective use of a giant striker too - I remember Valencia's 6ft 5 John Carew knocking Arsenal out of the Champions League a few years back when Rafa was in charge. Carew, like Drogba, is hardly the best striker in the world, but he proved effective for Rafa.

Quote
One thing I feel is that even if Traore, Biscan, and one or two others, have left doubts in the manager's mind, you cannot deny that they have proved very valuable squad players. If your reserves are too good then you just end up with a collection of unhappy players rocking the boat and looking to leave at the first opportunity.
Yeah I agree. I'm delighted it sounds as if Djimi has been offered a new contract because he's improved immensely this season, can play full back or centre half and will be brimming with confidence after winning the CL - nothing should faze him now. At the very least he's a superb squad player.

Offline Vinay

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Re: Rebuilding the Champions of Europe
« Reply #22 on: June 6, 2005, 04:42:06 pm »
A couple of things:
1. Crouch is a better player than Ferguson.  Crouch was playing for England at the the youth level when Mellor, who was banging in 30 goals in 35 games at that time, wasn't even getting a look in.  Crouch, who I have previously described as the most ungainly striker to grace the Premiership, has recently shown some surprisingly deft touches.

2. I wouldn't replace Cissé by getting Owen.  We haven't seen Cissé at his best yet. 

3. I don't believe in Owen Hargreaves (And he is Canandian really, isn't he? I did not think he actually lived in England).  There are better players out there in England, and yes, some of then will be exhorbitantly expensive.

4. Good analysis re: Drogba there Paul.  You are right about him.

:wave
« Last Edit: June 6, 2005, 04:44:03 pm by Vinay »

Offline Emperor

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Re: Rebuilding the Champions of Europe
« Reply #23 on: June 6, 2005, 04:56:45 pm »
hm a big friend of mine - Feye's and Dudek's fan does believe that Kuyt - fantastic player and so on... BUT he don't know if EPL is his league. He also thing that he'll play not better than Kluivert or Tomasson...
So I'm not sure is it right to give even 10 mil for him... as far as I concern - he will move to some attacking club like Barcelona... 'cause EPL is too rough for him

Rough? Have you seen the guy's build? He'd wrestle Rooney if he was given the chance.

Also, Kluivert has been fading now for a while, and Tomasson was shite anyways. Guess who they played for though? Newcastle. Besides Shearer, there hasn't been one prolific striker at that club in the past 10 years.

Vinay, you don't believe in Hargreaves probably because you watch his England performances more than anything. He after Carra is probably the most versatile English player around. He can play across the back four and midfield four. Though he's best in the holding role which he does well in for Bayern. He's no worldclass left mid, the position that he's thrown into for England.
« Last Edit: June 6, 2005, 04:59:15 pm by Justice For All »
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Offline SMD

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Re: Rebuilding the Champions of Europe
« Reply #24 on: June 6, 2005, 05:01:45 pm »
Besides Shearer, there hasn't been one prolific striker at that club in the past 10 years.

Ferdinand?

Cole?
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Offline Emperor

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Re: Rebuilding the Champions of Europe
« Reply #25 on: June 6, 2005, 05:06:20 pm »
30 goals a season? Nope.
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Offline SMD

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Re: Rebuilding the Champions of Europe
« Reply #26 on: June 6, 2005, 05:38:23 pm »
30 goals a season? Nope.

You're kidding, right?
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Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: Rebuilding the Champions of Europe
« Reply #27 on: June 6, 2005, 05:57:21 pm »
2. I wouldn't replace Cissé by getting Owen.  We haven't seen Cissé at his best yet. 


I don't think anyone is suggesting that. I still have high hopes for Cissé. But I'd settle for Moro, Owen, Cissé and Crouch as our four main strikers, with Pongolle pushing them hard.

I certainly expect us to be in the market for two strikers if Baros leaves.



3. I don't believe in Owen Hargreaves


I can assure you that he does actually exist!  :P

Santa Claus, however...

Offline JPS

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Re: Rebuilding the Champions of Europe
« Reply #28 on: June 6, 2005, 06:05:45 pm »
A couple of things:

....numbered 1-4.  :)

Offline Ole Gunnar

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Re: Rebuilding the Champions of Europe
« Reply #29 on: June 6, 2005, 06:15:32 pm »
As Always Paul, great read, just wish I had the same ability as you to put my thoughts on to paper.

A couple of thoughts:

Champions of Europe:
If it makes the Evertonians sleep better at night, convincing themselves that we won the CL by luck, well fine by me. Yea, there was luck involved, but we where unlucky at times as well, but what hell, that’s football!

Regarding the summer transfers:
A lot of people get a bit carried away I think, yes we are the champions of  Europe, but does that mean that we can go out and get Joaquin, SWP, Raul and players like that?
One thing is to aim high when you go shopping; another thing is to be realistic. Champions of Europe or not, I don't think we can spend £20M on one player. And I'm not sure that is the right way to improve either, I think one or two "big signings", and 4-5 "unknown" players might be a better way to go.
In my opinion we need a player like Hargreaves, he would come cheap, he’s 24, he has 24 caps for England (I think), and CL experience. He would not join as a certain starter; he would join as a squad player. And we don’t have the strongest CM midfield, and I don’t think Gerrard and Alonso would be the best partnership in all games. At Anfield, they will be great, but I think we might need to have a Hamman type in some away games, and against the top teams. And I don’t think Biscan can cut it in the premier league, so Hargreaves would fit well into the picture.
When it comes to the goalkeeper situation, I think Kirkland’s days are over. He has never done anything to convince me that he is a future nr 1.
But no matter who Rafa brings in this summer, I will support them. And even if I’m not the biggest Crouch fan (at least not for £5-6M), if he comes, Rafa and his team have seen something they can fit into their system, at least to offer possibilities.


This will be a second transition season, getting us one step closer to the top. I didn’t see us challenging for the title until Rafa’s third season, and I’ll stick with that.
If we finish 3’rd, ten points behind the league winner, then yes I will be happy.
The great thing is, if we are in the mix when there is lets say 10 games left, then anything can happened.

Can’t wait for the new season to start, and to see who Rafa brings in this summer.
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Offline BCCC

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Re: Rebuilding the Champions of Europe
« Reply #30 on: June 6, 2005, 06:47:26 pm »
BCCC,

You only have to look at Chelsea again, really. The 'big man upfront' tactics worked a treat against Bayern Munich. I'm not saying it's pretty football - it isn't - but if the target man can win balls and either have a decent effort himself, or bring other players into the game, then he's a very good asset for the club.

I agree a big man would be an asset and we should have that option. I just feel it's an easy out sometimes. Teams effectively stop playing football when the "big man" is introduced and go totally one dimensional. I agree that Drogba had one or two good games, particularly against Munich. He did however have a very poor game against us in the semi at Anfield. Chelsea's tactics were wrong that night, our center halves coped easily with Drogba. I am however talking about European Cup winning center halves ;D ;D ;D
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Offline GingerRed

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Re: Rebuilding the Champions of Europe
« Reply #31 on: June 6, 2005, 06:57:00 pm »
I am however talking about European Cup winning center halves ;D ;D ;D

:lmao

I do agree that Chelsea got their tactics badly wrong against us. If we do sign Crouch, I hope that it is only as an option, rather than the only way we'll play. Punting long balls up the pitch isn't going to worry many well-drilled defences, however it always provides something different. Against any team without real height at the back, a 6'7'' forward is always going to cause major problems, particularly if we can get our hands on some decent wide players who can whip crosses into the box.

I certainly wouldn't pay a huge sum for a Crouch type player, but I think he would be worth some money, if only because he will always give opposition defences a worry at the back of their minds.
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Offline Taksim Square

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Re: Rebuilding the Champions of Europe
« Reply #32 on: June 6, 2005, 07:21:17 pm »
....numbered 1-4.  :)

...exactly like the FA have allocated places for next season's Champs league, eh JPS? ;)
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Offline JPS

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Re: Rebuilding the Champions of Europe
« Reply #33 on: June 6, 2005, 08:32:14 pm »
...exactly like the FA have allocated places for next season's Champs league, eh JPS? ;)

:) Exactly. But don't get me going about that on another thread.

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Re: Rebuilding the Champions of Europe
« Reply #34 on: June 6, 2005, 09:00:28 pm »
Yet to see any valid reason to sign Crouch.

Comparisons with Ferguson are pointless seeing as Crouch lacks the arial ability, strength or agression to play the same role. He may have a decent touch but if we're chucking him on with the intention of hitting long balls to mix it up he's not going have room to display his control with the ball on the ground.

If you think we need a player to mix it up late in the gamewhen passing through/around them hasn't worked why not take a striker who has the attributes to deal with that. A player dominant in the air with a physical presence, and an agressive streak that he'd need to take on some of the premierships clogger defenders. Crouch isn't that player, if anything Crouch is a younger, less talented, taller version of Morientes.

 

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Re: Rebuilding the Champions of Europe
« Reply #35 on: June 6, 2005, 09:40:42 pm »
a zoo reader Paul?

knew you were plagiarising from somewhere. ;)

Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: Rebuilding the Champions of Europe
« Reply #36 on: June 6, 2005, 10:03:15 pm »
a zoo reader Paul?

knew you were plagiarising from somewhere. ;)



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Re: Rebuilding the Champions of Europe
« Reply #37 on: June 6, 2005, 10:07:30 pm »
Deffo agree with not breaking up the squad, a few players will leave naturally, theres no need to kick lots of players out the door just for the sake of it.

Not sure on Crouch to be honest, dont think we should be going down that route, if he offered pace & power like Drogba (without the massively over-inflated price tag) then maybe he would be a good addition. Then again, we had those assets in Heskey, he just never used them often enough

would be well happy to be within 10 points of the winners, if that doesnt get us 2nd place, then u'll have to give dues to whoever does finish 2nd

Need another cup run, and if it is in the same competitions as this year then I'll be well happy  ;D
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Offline Paul Tomkins

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Re: Rebuilding the Champions of Europe
« Reply #38 on: June 6, 2005, 10:08:49 pm »
Comparisons with Ferguson are pointless seeing as Crouch lacks the arial ability...


 ???

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Re: Rebuilding the Champions of Europe
« Reply #39 on: June 6, 2005, 10:22:19 pm »

 ???

Just because he's tall people take it for granted that he is but the truth is, for his size, his aerial ability isn't great