Author Topic: How do we adjust without Mane?  (Read 13516 times)

Offline -Daws-

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Re: How do we adjust without Mane?
« Reply #40 on: January 5, 2017, 11:26:06 pm »
Wouldn't surprise me if it's just like for like with Origi. Four reasons

He has that pace and power to force the back line back and allow Bob and Phil to drop off and inside the spaces, whilst Lallana and Gini support from deeper.

It keeps Phil and Bob in the positions where they have performed best, close to each other and able to link up as they did before. They also have familiarity around them in Milly and Gini.

Third, like Mane, Origi will want to get in behind, past players, and into goalscoring, although different in style and technicality, both have the qualities needed to do this, so the role could work for Divock.

Lastly, Coutinho whipping right footed crosses onto the back post with Origi's presence could cause teams major problems, especially with the knack Lallana and Bob have of latching onto second balls in the box. Origi making diagonal runs from right will also be a good target for Phil and Milner to play passes behind their backline.

I think it is the easiest way to keep to a system the players grasp.
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Offline Souness1

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Re: How do we adjust without Mane?
« Reply #41 on: January 6, 2017, 12:04:56 am »
what about pushing Wijnaldum further forward, leaving Lallana and Firmino in their best roles.

So;

              Hendo
     Can               Lallana
Gini        Firmino          Coutinho

I know Klopp has tried this with Gini on the odd occassion and it didnt look ideal but these 10 days before United working on it on the training ground might get us through the the month or so without Mane. Obviously putting Sturridge/Origi through the middle is a great option to have but I get the feeling he will go with Firmino through the middle initially at least. Its just weather Klopp wants to shift Lallana around like he did against City or keep him at 8 where hes been the best player in that position in the league this season.

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Re: How do we adjust without Mane?
« Reply #42 on: January 6, 2017, 01:52:21 am »
I am sure that Jurgen has an idea in mind for this, he talked about it in the pressers that we may switch formations . Non the less, whatever we do, I hope we don't see Lallana as the replacement because he is playing his best football of his career in midfield.


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Re: How do we adjust without Mane?
« Reply #43 on: January 6, 2017, 02:04:36 am »
I suspect we'll play Origi with Firmino and Coutinho either side.  Wouldn't want to move Lallana from his new central position but losing Mane's sheer pace for a month is going to be tough, Origi is quick but he doesn't have that same burst speed.

I suspect this is what we'll do in most games with Sturridge rotating in with Origi. For the most difficult games, I suspect we'll see Firmino go central and Sturridge/Origi make way for Wijnaldum playing in the front three with an added midfielder in the middle.
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Re: How do we adjust without Mane?
« Reply #44 on: January 6, 2017, 02:41:07 am »
I don't understand the need for adjustment. Klopp clearly expects the front three to be interchangeable. If you play in a Klopp front three then you have to be prepared to play across the front three positions. We may lose a certain explosiveness without Mane but that will be made up for in other areas.   
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Offline NeilR

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Re: How do we adjust without Mane?
« Reply #45 on: January 6, 2017, 07:17:36 am »
Its not his offensive work I am worried about replacing as I think we have very good options in Sturridge and Origi who can both score goals and cause the opposition problems, but its Mane's defensive work rate that may actually be the biggest loss. That guy puts in a hell of a shift up and down the pitch all match and doubles up nicely with Clyne.

Offline Joff123

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Re: How do we adjust without Mane?
« Reply #46 on: January 6, 2017, 12:51:33 pm »
what about pushing Wijnaldum further forward, leaving Lallana and Firmino in their best roles.

So;

              Hendo
     Can               Lallana
Gini        Firmino          Coutinho

I know Klopp has tried this with Gini on the odd occassion and it didnt look ideal but these 10 days before United working on it on the training ground might get us through the the month or so without Mane. Obviously putting Sturridge/Origi through the middle is a great option to have but I get the feeling he will go with Firmino through the middle initially at least. Its just weather Klopp wants to shift Lallana around like he did against City or keep him at 8 where hes been the best player in that position in the league this season.



Gini's best position is the engine, his work is unbelievable and vital to how we have learnt to tick. He won't change it for Utd with Gini further forward.

Suspect origi to come in and Can/Hendo, Gini and Lallana or if hendo is fit then Can/Hendo/Gini with Lallana further forward and Phil most likely off the bench

Offline Souness1

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Re: How do we adjust without Mane?
« Reply #47 on: January 6, 2017, 06:07:52 pm »

Gini's best position is the engine, his work is unbelievable and vital to how we have learnt to tick. He won't change it for Utd with Gini further forward.

Suspect origi to come in and Can/Hendo, Gini and Lallana or if hendo is fit then Can/Hendo/Gini with Lallana further forward and Phil most likely off the bench

But Lallanas best position is more central and Firminos is through the middle as the 9. At the end of the day someone is going to have to fill in in a less suited role and as far as I'm concerned having Adam and Bobby in their best positions is more vital than Gini (as much as I love him). Who knows what Jurgen will go with tho, he seems to come up with the answers more often than not.

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Re: How do we adjust without Mane?
« Reply #48 on: January 6, 2017, 07:39:39 pm »
Everybody look to their left
Everybody look to their right
Can you feel that, yeah
We're paying with love tonight
It's not about the Mane Mane Mane
We don't need your Mane Mane Mane


we'll be fine.
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Re: How do we adjust without Mane?
« Reply #49 on: January 6, 2017, 07:57:33 pm »
We just adjust to life without Mané

Simple
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Offline SerbianScouser

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Re: How do we adjust without Mane?
« Reply #50 on: January 6, 2017, 08:04:11 pm »
Considering how often teams park the bus against us it'll be more about our combinations upfront rather than having a chance to use pace. He'll be badly missed at OT but not that much in other games in January.

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Re: How do we adjust without Mane?
« Reply #51 on: January 6, 2017, 10:05:37 pm »
Considering how often teams park the bus against us it'll be more about our combinations upfront rather than having a chance to use pace. He'll be badly missed at OT but not that much in other games in January.

He has been a big part of picking those locks.
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Offline Phil M

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Re: How do we adjust without Mane?
« Reply #52 on: January 6, 2017, 10:06:21 pm »
He missed one league game, that game was Burnley. :)

9 goals in 19 games.

He's a huge loss no matter what way we look at it, would be good to see us strengthen and bring someone in but I think with Coutinho and hopefully Sturridge back fit we still have the options and quality to cope.
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Re: How do we adjust without Mane?
« Reply #53 on: January 6, 2017, 10:42:12 pm »
Was it a surprise as to how well he fit in?
"All the lads have been talking about is walking out in front of the Kop, with 40,000 singing 'You'll Never Walk Alone'," Collins told BBC Radio Solent. "All the money in the world couldn't buy that feeling," he added.

Offline ThePeetmix

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Re: How do we adjust without Mane?
« Reply #54 on: January 6, 2017, 10:47:50 pm »
Was it a surprise as to how well he fit in?

No surprise he fit in. Surprising how quickly though. It literally seems like he's been part of the team for a few years now.

Offline LCapitane81

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Re: How do we adjust without Mane?
« Reply #55 on: January 6, 2017, 11:16:50 pm »
Ok, so I've just watched all our goals so far this season to see what impact Mane has had in them (if any):

Arsenal - x1 (his solo goal)
Burton Albion - x4 (sets up Origi, latches onto poor goal kick and slides in Clyne, plays 1-2 with Milner, sets up Sturridge)
Leicester - x2 (his goal and setup for Firmino)
Hull - x2 (his goal and pass to Coutinho for handball+pen)
Swansea - x2 (gets the foul that wins the freekick phase we score from, crosses the ball to Firmino and we win a pen)
West Brom - x2 (his goal, sets up Coutinho)
Palace - x1 (plays the ball to Hendo who sets up Firmino)
Watford - x2 (two goals)
Sunderland - x1 (wins the pen)
Bournemouth - x2 (his goal and sets up Can)
West Ham - x2 (sets up Lallana, sets up Origi)
Middlesborough - x3 (passes to Clyne, cross, goal, starts the slick move that Origi scores from, pivotal in Lallana 2nd)
Everton - x1 (Merrrrrrry Chrisssstmas Everrrrton)
Stoke - x2 (sets up Lallana, forces the own goal)
Sunderland - x1 (scores)


So, he has been involved in 28 goals directly, and that's from edited clips on youtube that don't show any build up play at all. How much are we going to miss him? I'd say a hell of a lot.

I noticed the same thing with Suarez and then watched THAT season back on youtube and saw that he was directly involved in nearly everyone of our goals in some capacity.

I haven't answered the opening post - will have to have a think on that.

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Re: How do we adjust without Mane?
« Reply #56 on: January 6, 2017, 11:24:57 pm »
So you're saying we should be alright?
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Offline LCapitane81

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Re: How do we adjust without Mane?
« Reply #57 on: January 6, 2017, 11:30:17 pm »
So you're saying we should be alright?

 ;D

Indeed, just fine.

Offline SerbianScouser

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Re: How do we adjust without Mane?
« Reply #58 on: January 6, 2017, 11:45:35 pm »
Timing of Phil's return really couldn't be more perfect. We'll practically fill Mane's spot with our best player.(Imagine if we were without them both for this month).

With Phil it's not just what he brings on his own but also that Bob will be moved to his best position where he should get back to his best football because on the left we haven't seen 30% of what he's capable of. That double effect should go a long way of softening the blow of Mane's absence.

Without Mane our front 3 will never be as perfectly balanced but with Phil, Firmino, Origi and Sturridge there's enough quality there for Klopp to work with so we could keep scoring goals and get through this month.

Offline Souness1

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Re: How do we adjust without Mane?
« Reply #59 on: January 7, 2017, 12:09:44 am »
Considering how often teams park the bus against us it'll be more about our combinations upfront rather than having a chance to use pace. He'll be badly missed at OT but not that much in other games in January.

pretty much it, for me

Offline kkhaku

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Re: How do we adjust without Mane?
« Reply #60 on: January 8, 2017, 02:42:43 am »
The starting front three when everyone is fit will likely be Coutinho, Firmino and Lallana, with Can, Hendo and Wiijnaldum behind them.

If Klopp feels Can isn't up to it, or that we need a little more pace and presence up front, Lallana can come back into midfield, with Origi or Sturridge central and Firmino out wide.

Don't see anything other than that happening unless Klopp suddenly decides to give Gomez a go at leftback and move Milner to midfield, or even use Grujic there.
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Offline CallumLFC

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Re: How do we adjust without Mane?
« Reply #61 on: January 21, 2017, 08:12:13 pm »
I had a bad feeling about his loss and it's showing. We have absolutely no capable alternative for him. A new signing would have been the advisable thing to do when it came to replacing him.

Out of all the possible options, my greatest fear was having Lallana back in the front three. Really not liking the current set-up with him out there.


Offline SerbianScouser

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Re: How do we adjust without Mane?
« Reply #62 on: January 21, 2017, 08:17:40 pm »
I had a bad feeling about his loss and it's showing. We have absolutely no capable alternative for him. A new signing would have been the advisable thing to do when it came to replacing him.
It's much more complicated than that. We had Mane for City and Sunderland games and it's been exact same performances as all others in January - meaning we literally don't create clear cut chances from open play in games at all. Midfield is the main issue, ever since we started tinkering and moving Lallana around it is so noticeable we can't penetrate through the middle because the midfield is thoroughly unbalanced lately.

Offline rowan_d

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Re: How do we adjust without Mane?
« Reply #63 on: January 21, 2017, 08:19:57 pm »
Poorly

Not just his absence itself that is doing damage, but the domino effect its had with Lallana moving out of his good position and being replaced with vastly inferior options.

Having said that, we had already tailed off a bit before he went.
« Last Edit: January 21, 2017, 08:22:18 pm by rowan_d »

Offline MinnyRed

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Re: How do we adjust without Mane?
« Reply #64 on: January 21, 2017, 08:34:25 pm »
Poorly

So far, sadly.   We've tried to compensate with essentially a straight swap - Can for Mane, which is a tremendously bad idea on more than one level.  First, it's pushed Lallana out of position (he's so much more effective from midfield).  Second, a midfield 3 of Can, Hendo, Gini is more than a bit blunt.  Third, with Hendo nursing a heel, we're leaving the back 4 more than usually exposed.   

We need to adjust formations / tactics.  We simply do not have a replacement for Mane.  But, we do have some quality on the bench...Sturridge and Origi most notably.

I'd do the following...

Migs

Clyne Matip Lovren Milner

Lallana Gini Hendo Phil

Sturridge Firmino 

Alternative...

Migs

Clyne Matip Lovren TAA/Moreno/Gomez

Lallana Hendo Phil Milner

 Origi Firmino 




Offline Zlen

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Re: How do we adjust without Mane?
« Reply #65 on: January 21, 2017, 09:02:08 pm »
Looks like we really don't adjust at all.
Also looks like we're unprepared for it, as if it happened by surprise, like we had no notice of him leaving.


Offline andy07

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Re: How do we adjust without Mane?
« Reply #66 on: January 21, 2017, 09:52:26 pm »
Its not just about Mane (acknowledged he is a big loss).   We failed to register a shot on target in the first half today against the bottom team in the league.  Yet we spent an eternity racking up the possession stats by passing the ball across the front of our back four.    What do our players have against shooting?    Are they told not to shoot and to pass the ball around endlessly?   If we don't shoot we don't score.   I would have expected our players to be really up for this today, getting on the pitch and going straight for the jugular, shot at the Swansea goal in the first 2 minutes to rattle them and get the crowd going.   
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Offline Kopite B205

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Re: How do we adjust without Mane?
« Reply #67 on: January 21, 2017, 11:06:49 pm »
In response to the question? I would expect our owners to back the manager and throw a good amount of top wedge on another pacey attacker. Not only is Mane a unique talent in our team, if he's injured and misses any games upon his return we will find ourselves struggling to replace the qualities he brings to the team.
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Offline SerbianScouser

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Re: How do we adjust without Mane?
« Reply #68 on: January 21, 2017, 11:11:08 pm »
In response to the question? I would expect our owners to back the manager and throw a good amount of top wedge on another pacey attacker.
Why would any team give us a Mane level of a player mid-season? For me this has nothing to do with money and everything to do with availability.

Offline RedForeverTT

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Re: How do we adjust without Mane?
« Reply #69 on: January 21, 2017, 11:24:05 pm »
Its not just about Mane (acknowledged he is a big loss).   We failed to register a shot on target in the first half today against the bottom team in the league.  Yet we spent an eternity racking up the possession stats by passing the ball across the front of our back four.    What do our players have against shooting?    Are they told not to shoot and to pass the ball around endlessly?   If we don't shoot we don't score.   I would have expected our players to be really up for this today, getting on the pitch and going straight for the jugular, shot at the Swansea goal in the first 2 minutes to rattle them and get the crowd going.

We were so exposed when we lose one piano player. And we have the other one- Coutinho, just returning from injury and trying to find form. Other than Firmino, Milner and Lallana, all others have gone into their shell and hardly took any risk. Aimless passing and predictable play like the Liverpool of Hodgson's and Roger's final year with us.

Offline Zlen

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Re: How do we adjust without Mane?
« Reply #70 on: January 21, 2017, 11:37:25 pm »
Why would any team give us a Mane level of a player mid-season? For me this has nothing to do with money and everything to do with availability.

We lavish them with moolah, lot of moolah, like, really, really lot of it?
Or we kind of do our fucking job and discover a great available player eager to go to us.
Like we did with Suarez, like many other teams do and have done since the dawn of football.

Not like it's fucking rocket science.

It looks more like we didn't really try that hard and that is ok as well, until we get well beat at home by the dead bottom team of the league, then we kind of look stupid and cheap.

Offline SerbianScouser

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Re: How do we adjust without Mane?
« Reply #71 on: January 21, 2017, 11:40:36 pm »
It looks more like we didn't really try that hard and that is ok as well, until we get well beat at home by the dead bottom team of the league, then we kind of look stupid and cheap.
If we lost a game at home to a dead bottom team of the league just because we missed one single player then there's no helping us.

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Re: How do we adjust without Mane?
« Reply #72 on: January 21, 2017, 11:59:24 pm »
I think Klopp can be criticised here. Firmino is consistently poor off the wing, Lallana is almost toothless out wide. With both of them central we're a menace, and with them out wide, we have no penetration whatsoever. Losing Mane and Coutinho should have resulted in like for like swaps, or at the very least, bringing in a striker and keeping Lallana in his best position. Which other wide attackers do we have, you ask? I'm fine with Klopp not pushing youth into the team, but he should have at least tried Divock out wide. And if that wasn't good enough, then a two striker formation with Firmino as a 10 and Lallana as an 8 seemed pretty straightforward too.

It doesn't help that Klopp's nominated 12th man, Emre, has had an atrocious season, and shown himself clearly unsuitable for the #8 role. At some stage, Klopp needs to accept that Can can't keep getting game time. I generally appreciate Klopp's ideals of trusting his players (leading to both long term and short term gain), but we have needed more tactical flexibility for the here and now, and Emre has been a huge negative.

On November 6th, we put 6 past Watford. Since then, we've produced one 90 minutes where both the result and the performance has been something to be proud of (away to Boro). That Watford win was the last time we started Coutinho, Firmino, Lallana and Mane together. We could definitely do with another wide attacker, but ultimately, Klopp has decided his targets, Klopp has the final say on all transfers, and Klopp would have done something about it in January, if he wanted to. I don't think a weak squad is something that goes in his favour here. We are breathtaking with our best players, but we've not had them all together for a while now, and I don't think Klopp has responded brilliantly.

I'm not criticising his transfer strategy btw, I completely agree with him on waiting for the right player. But should he decide to take that course of action, and he has (both last summer* and in January) he can't be devoid of the criticism. Put it in the context of Liverpool being a long term project and it's understandable, but it will be damning if we miss out on the top 4 this year because of that.

*he was interested in Pulisic last summer, showing that clearly he believed that there was space for another wide attacker in our squad.

edit: I would also rather that nobody responds with 'our defence is a bigger issue', which it blatantly is, but I can't attach much blame to Klopp on that front. There isn't just one issue with the team, and Klopp's approach to not having his full front four available is one of those issues.
« Last Edit: January 22, 2017, 12:04:09 am by Shaved Crossbar »

Offline GreatEx

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Re: How do we adjust without Mane?
« Reply #73 on: January 22, 2017, 12:08:16 am »
Ojo ?

Yep. It's time. May be raw or whatever, but otherwise allows us to play our best players in their best positions.

Offline JackWard33

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Re: How do we adjust without Mane?
« Reply #74 on: January 22, 2017, 12:32:10 am »
Why would any team give us a Mane level of a player mid-season? For me this has nothing to do with money and everything to do with availability.

There was a chronic lack of pace in our side last season. Klopp said since day one we lack 'wingers' (he means wide forwards)
We bought 1 in the summer. (And let Ibe go - correctly but still he was our only player of that type). So we didn't fix the problem
433 needs generally needs pacy wide forwards. Klopp needs pacy wide forwards.

It's not an availability problem it's a planning and execution problem.
For whatever reason we haven't been able to get Klopp the players the squad needs.
 

Offline Binomial

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Re: How do we adjust without Mane?
« Reply #75 on: January 22, 2017, 12:34:23 am »
We're not coping well at all like Jurgen said we would.
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Offline jooneyisdagod

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Re: How do we adjust without Mane?
« Reply #76 on: January 22, 2017, 12:46:37 am »
There was a chronic lack of pace in our side last season. Klopp said since day one we lack 'wingers' (he means wide forwards)
We bought 1 in the summer. (And let Ibe go - correctly but still he was our only player of that type). So we didn't fix the problem
433 needs generally needs pacy wide forwards. Klopp needs pacy wide forwards.

It's not an availability problem it's a planning and execution problem.
For whatever reason we haven't been able to get Klopp the players the squad needs.
 

The lack of pace isn't just last season though. We've suffered from a lack of pace for as long as we remember. For a period, it felt like we were afraid that a combination of pace and skill would lead us to a title or something, and we kept getting skillful but slow or fast and average players. 13/14 is the only time when we've had genuine pace in the side. Even this season, Mane is the only one that really provides pace. Origi is fast too but his acceleration isn't quite the same.
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Offline bodhisattva

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Re: How do we adjust without Mane?
« Reply #77 on: January 22, 2017, 04:40:48 pm »
Watching the game yesterday and it was apparent that all of the space was out wide with Clyne and Milner, yesterday Clyne had a poor game by his own standards, he looked reluctant to run into the space he had and get balls into the box, on the other side Milner had a similar amount of space in front of him but because he's playing on the opposite side he checked onto his right foot a lot or when he did deliver with his left the quality was poor.

Very early in the game I would have looked to have made a change in those positions, I would have switched Milner to RB and you could have moved Clyne to left back or put Moreno on the left if you wanted both fullbacks very high up the pitch.

What that would have allowed us to do is take better advantage of that space Swansea gave us, and having Milner who has played plenty as a winger on his strong side he could have made better use of that space he was given or Swansea would have had to adapt opening up space for someone else. I think that is something we should look to do more, take advantage of Milner's versatility and ability as a winger and he can be a great outlet against teams that defend deep and narrow which frees up the space out wide.

In terms of who replaces Mane, I think it's going to be difficult but what is hurting us is moving Lallana from the midfield 3. Can isn't playing great so I don't see how we lose out playing Lallana in the midfield and using one of Origi, Ojo, or even Wilson or Woodburn out wide. But I also think that switch of Milner to RB (or you could play AA who is a more offensive threat than Clyne) would help us get back that width that Mane gives us.

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Re: How do we adjust without Mane?
« Reply #78 on: January 22, 2017, 04:48:58 pm »
Easy......

1)Drop Firmino

2)Play Sturridge, Origi and Coutinho up front

3)Go back to Gini, Hendo and Lallana combo in midfield...

Its not rocket science....
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Re: How do we adjust without Mane?
« Reply #79 on: January 22, 2017, 04:50:14 pm »
Easy......

1)Drop Firmino

2)Play Sturridge, Origi and Coutinho up front

3)Go back to Gini, Hendo and Lallana combo in midfield...

Its not rocket science....

Drop Firmino? He has been streets better than Sturridge and Origi.