Topic: Round Table: Liverpool 0-0 Stoke City

[The 5th Benitle]

An afternoon of frustration at Anfield as Stoke got the point they came for.
 
Lots of talking points of course, including Huth's stamp on Suarez.
 
But talking about the football, and specifically our football. Did we play to the Rodgers system today? Or did we try and go a bit more direct? Steven Gerrard in particular was, to me, guilty of not keeping it simple. Do we think he was under instruction to do so or did he go off script?
 
Did we deserve to win a game in which we dominated possession but didn't really create manay chances from it?
 
A lot of the post match discussion has been about Joe Cole coming on for Suso. The last minute volley aside, what were your thoughts on his cameo, and what do you think the tactical reasons were for his inclusion over, say, Borini?
 
Finally, nice to see a clean sheet and a solid game from Pepe eh?

[archie]

I'm not one of those who has ever poured scorn on Stoke, but they got away with it today.
The ref was not good enough. Don't feel that needs to be elaborated on.

A welcome clean sheet and we restricted Stoke to very little which has to be a positive, although
2nd half they weren't exactly pouring forward in search of a goal.

This week was always going to be tough with the 2 teams wew were facing and we've seen positives
and negatives.
For me, it's the problems of having a relatively inexperienced squad. We knew the kind of problems we might face after the transfer window balls up. Today highlighted that. Suarez has scored the goals this season
and is our go to man. But, even so, when he doesn't score he is labelled as self indulgent by some which I find
a little bizarre.

Some of the players we let go, for all their faults had that knack of gambling on the loose ball/cross. They were also in the right place at the right time. But those players were experienced internationals.
I think those things will come as the players get more familiar with each other. It happened last week but it won't happen every week. We knew there would be highs and lows.

I think we should've won with the chances we created.
But because we didn't put them away we didn't deserve to win.

I watched the game on a fairly poor stream so I'll let our experts go more in depth on tactics.

J Cole esq could score a hat-trick against Everton but he will never be accepted by the fans.
He was alright I thought.

[Garstonite]

I'm fed up with referees at the moment. It's every game now and it's becoming tiresome.

There's no protection for players. Strip it down and you go to a football match to watch men do things with a football that the ordinary man is incapable of. Time and again today, Stoke players broke up our rhythm with cynical foul followed by cynical foul, breaking up the play and getting men behind the ball. And Lee Mason let them. I lost count of the amount of times people around me asked "Where's the advantage there?" And they were right. Suarez spins, plays a ball out to Suso or Sterling and is taken out. The referee signals for play to continue but we're a man light and you're counting down the seconds before whoever it is on the ball now is fouled. This isn't football.

From a tactical perspective, I was quite impressed with how high Stoke were willing to push up the pitch. Allen and Sahin struggled in the first half. Reina's distribution didn't help. We got going in the second half but we weren't clinical enough. Again. We do need patience but I'm sick to death of bang average sides mugging us of points at home. It's not Rodgers' fault, but one or two more of them and the fans won't be as forgiving at the final whistle, I can guarantee it.

As an aside: Joe Cole can fuck right off. Haven't detested a Liverpool player this much since El-Hadji Diouf. I hope to God someone throttled the window-licking jamook in the changies after that volley at the end.

[Juan Loco]

I fucking hate Stoke.

Usually I just hate them in the build-up and aftermath to us playing them, but take great pleasure in other teams struggling against them. No more. Maybe it's some newly found solidarity from other teams, or maybe it's just after however many years, I resent having to watch Tony Pulis' black arts. Like Sam Allardyce on Red Bull, trying to push the envelope and tour the ugliest back alleys for any way to get through a football match. Maybe each human being has a finite amount of space in their lives they can accept Stoke being part of, and I've exceeded mine. Whatever it is, I fucking hate Stoke.

I fucking hate their alehouse tactics. I fucking hate that a Stoke shirt seems to grant players a certain immunity. I hate that because referees expect Stoke to be overly physical, that seems to allow them - in their own tiny little minds - the excuse for Stoke to be overly physical. I'm sick of their fucking back four, all of whom look like proper Rugby League Town twats, smacking their way around the league. Wilkinson's elbows, Huth's stamp, Ryan Shawcross and his peculiar brand of footballing Jiu-Jitsu. In midfield you've got cynical shites fucking Whitehead, who takes great pleasure in mastering the poorly timed trip, or Charlie Adam who is just tugboat slow and reckless. Top it off with that twat Waters upfront. God I hate him. He's got the face of a badger baiter. Just a horrible, horrible collection players.

It's not a surprise though is it? In Tony Pulis you've got a really vile manager. Him and his stupid fucking baseball cap. All his pundit mates laugh off his teams; "well if you knew Tony as a player you'd know what his teams are like" - there's a fucking reason no one knows what sort of player he was. They simply don't care to remember some lower league yard dog, and cringe that they have to watch a team in his image. I'll give Pulis some credit though, never has a manager captured the essence of a town and it's people so well in how their team plays football than Stoke. He's such a horrible, overly macho twat. The poster boy for British footballing culture, where a dive is sneaky and insidious and thus far worse than breaking a players leg with a horror tackle, elbowing someone in the face or stamping on their chest. The man has managed to usurp Mark Hughes and Sam Allardyce as the Wannabe Alpha of the league.

The fans, in amongst it all, I have some twisted sense of sympathy for. Tony Pulis' own personal Volkssturm of outcasts, trudging along every (other) week out of some misplaced sense of duty. Duty to protect their birth place. All off on a march to their death. A football death. A football death that couldn't be further removed from the one Rodgers speaks of. Off to the windy vortex of misery, void of hope. the great architecture of schadenfreude. "If we can't enjoy football then neither can you". The essence of Stoke.

Stoke. That horrible fucking verb.

1) Stoke.
To remove joy and purpose from the occasion

Tony Pulis was delighted to stoke Liverpool at the football match


Just fuck off, Stoke. Not even down the lower leagues, because if that happens some poor twat will be stuck paying to watch his team run the Stoke gauntlet, being told to 'embrace' the challenge. Nah. Fuck that. Fuck this idea that defeating Dr Pulis' Monster is some kind of footballing achievement. They're removed almost entirely from the sport. Stoke a horrid mixture of shotput, 11 players cynically fouling on rotation, and set pieces. That's the fucking Stoke credo right there. If it's not a set play you can't control what's happening, so you foul, and get another set play.

I'm not against physicality in football. I'm not against the odd bit of cynicism. But I'm not having the defence of Stoke. It's pure anti-football. They routintely turn up to games against any team to make sure the ball is out of play as much as possible. That is not a worthwhile tactic. Wouldn't wish it on anyone.

Fuck off you oatcake munching twats.

[Hinesy]

Love that Juan Loco, and yes Garst mate I'm with you on Joe Cole at the end. He's an international footballer of long standing and he thinks in the heat of the moment, that's a good thing to do? A twat and a fat one at that. Why he and not Borini came on I'll never know.

Posted most of my thoughts in the eyewitness report, suffice to say Stoke can fuck off with their nonsensical shite and take the ref with them.

[BabuYagu]

Agree with all the above. I also hate this belief also that Stoke are a side we "should be beating". Like it is some sort of right. Nobody gets anything out of Stoke. Chelsea were damn lucky to get their 1-0 at Stamford Bridge. Manchester City, Arsenal.... both good footballing sides got a point. Swansea, probably very similar to us still stylistically speaking got nothing.

We got them exact same result last season under Kenny. It isn´t ever a football match. More like an Australian rules football match but with ice hockey like challenges thrown in. Just fucking awful to watch and I just can´t imagine what it is like being a Stoke City fan because you never get to witness a game of football. That mid air body check on Johnson today was just shocking. The moment it happened I worried Johnson would do a Puyol on landing. Thank God he bounced straight up from that. Not even a yellow.

Anyway I have very little to say because for me the Round Tables are to discuss football and I saw very little of that out there. Well done to Suso and Sterling though who both stuck to task exceptionally well and neither wimped out of the battle. Watch and learn Downing!

To answer your questions though:-

"Lots of talking points of course, including Huth's stamp on Suarez." - That was shocking. I can fully understand how officials missed it simply because they follow the play and will miss things off the ball. This is where the FA need to step in and take retrospective action which I believe they can do as the ref did not "deal with it during the game".
 
"Did we play to the Rodgers system today? Or did we try and go a bit more direct? Steven Gerrard in particular was, to me, guilty of not keeping it simple. Do we think he was under instruction to do som or did he go off script?"  - I think we tried. At spells in the first half and also right at the start of the second half we had Stoke pinned back. However at some point we started losing the patience and instead of sticking with this, we started going more direct. Watching crosses thrown in for Sterling to battle out with Huth and Shawcross just hurts my eyes. I would much rather keep the ball and be accused of doing nothing by some of out impatient fanbase. However, in actual fact we just move it around in front of Stoke and see if we can make any gaps appear. With the quick feet of Sterling, Allen, Sahin, Suso and Assaidi in the team you could even draw a penalty/freekick when one of the neaderthalls lash out in frustration and chasing the ball side to side. If Lee Mason wasn´t the ref of course.

Rodgers system will get criticism I´m sure as being unable to break down the Stokes of this world. Truth is.... Stoke don´t get broken down very often. Plus when we have players who loose patiance and start playing hit and hope football which I'm sure is very much against the wishes of the manager, it's hard to criticise the system when it this method that created the few efforts we did have.... not the long balls and high crosses into the box which gave us nada!
 
"Did we deserve to win a game in which we dominated possession but didn't really create manay chances from it?" I think when a team turns up and plays the way Stoke do they deserve nothing. I can't imagine any neutral enjoys watching what they do. It is effective, though, unfortunately. We did create chances to win it but probably should/would have created more if we stuck to script instead of trying to be a mini-Stoke and thinking Sterling would be as effective as Crouch and Walters at a long ball game.
 
"A lot of the post match discussion has been about Joe Cole coming on for Suso. The last minute volley aside, what were your thoughts on his cameo, and what do you think the tactical reasons were for his inclusion over, say, Borini?" - The real worry for me is that Rodgers might actually rate him high enough to feature him frequently in our system. I think we will see the best of Joe Coles Liverpool career under Rodgers. I think Rodgers style of play suits his game far more than Hodgson. I also think by the time Kenny took over, the public laying of blame for what dimwit gave him the Liverpool contract had already destroyed his confidence and he continued to looked a bag of shit under Kenny too. Cole is very much a confidence player and while I don´t think he is anywhere near good enough to play for a top Premiership club any longer.... he is a better player still than what we have seen so far and I think (unfortunately) Rodgers will give him a run in the side.

As for why he replaced Borini. I think he is one of those players considered nibble footed and who could create something or win us a pen/FK. Didn´t happen though. He wasn´t totally shit out there though and was involved majorly in one good move when he worked it out to Assaidi. That shot though.... fuck me. Why?!? Never in a million years was that going to result in a goal.

"Finally, nice to see a clean sheet and a solid game from Pepe eh?" - I think the clean sheet is immensely valuable and definately something for the whole defence to finally start building upon. We needed that. I´m not worried about our attack as I´ve seen enough to know that we have the players to create and score goals. As long as the referee stops the opposition from taking them out of the game first.

PS - turns out I did have something to say. 12 hours have passed and I´m still very pissed off at that game. Would love Stoke to get relegated. Love seeing the likes of Swansea, Norwich, Wigan, Southampton, QPR etc come up and at least attempt to play football. Have no time for what I saw today! Just imagine some poor bastard takes his kid to his first Liverpool game and witnesses that. "Dad, I dont see the appeal in that game. Don´t make me go again!"

[BabuYagu]

Stoke a horrid mixture of shotput, 11 players cynically fouling on rotation, and set pieces.

Loved every word of your post Juan. This in particular had me winded. Good stuff. Thanks!

[royhendo]

Pulis is a clever man. They were coming, we knew what to expect, and we didn't take our chances. Shaun's shot hits Sterling, Johnson gets on to Gerrard's sumptuous through ball, Suarez weaves his way through and fires wide when it seems easier after all that to score.

We need to take our chances. I didn't feel we were bullied - the referee was an idiot, but we have to play in spite of it. I didn't feel downbeat about this - I've been arguing for several weeks that this wasn't a gimme - they're a bastard of a side to play, particularly if you don't take your chances. None of this "if we don't get 9 points out of Norwich, Stoke and Reading" business - 7 is reasonable with Stoke in that mix while we're still toying with the balance.

Pepe did better, and save for the Sahin brain fart, and Skrtel late on rampaging out to cause a collision, we looked better defensively.

It's coming. I'll say it every week, but it's inevitable.

[Vulmea]

Think its easy to just slate Stoke but they weren't a surprise  and for once Lawrenson said something I agree with (does make me question whether its right though) - we dont get anywhere near enough players forward - happened against Udinese as well - yes we could get a goal and the whole game shifts but we didnt and we generally dont.

we used to come strong in games at the end thats when we had players in the box occupying defenders - giving them choices, blocking the runs they needed to block passes or clear the ball  - we just dont do it - again and again yesterday we had just 4 players dotted across the 20 yard line with nowhere to go, waiting for a runner that didn't come because there was nowhere to run into.

against Udinese we had players looking up to see nobody waiting for the ball  - so they just kept it and passed it to death

we had the same issue when rafa used to control games - no goals

the best way to open teams up is to get an early goal - for that you need to start sharp, with a fast tempo, early pressure on nervous palyers - we dont we try to keep the ball which negates that advantage -

 
the beginning and end of games should be our time - thats when we dominate - the middle of teh game is where we pass teams to death - but for that to work we need goals

how do we use Suarez - he isn't Messi - he isn't Ronaldo - he's a different type of player - introduce a genuine striker and play Suarez wide and you lose part of what makes the wee man so effective - play somebody with him to make space for him and you maximise his threat -

for those who can see it coming, exactly what can you see coming because for me the plan is flawed in a couple of key areas  but what nees to happen to see the goals arrive?

When it was Dalglish any arguments for 'luck' where quickly torn down, arguments for time where turned into a transfer debacke - so where are we short - what needs to change, what positions need to be improved - what changes to make it work? Better passing, better runs?

what else is Suarez supposed to be doing?

what else are the wide players supposed to do, that they are not doing?

what else are the midfielders supposed to do that they are not doing?

the fulbacks?

the centre halves?

what is it that is going to change to create the goals that we are lacking - what makes you believe its not the system that needs tweaking?

I appreciate this is all negative but i think the lad is close to making something happen.  I'm just worried that close may just stay close unless he changes things I dont think he wants to change.

[Cpt_Reina]

Im going to praise Stoke.

They did exactly what they do. They spread out the bookings, they strong armed us, they played very little football and they got exactly what they came for. If their supporters want to pay what we know it costs to follow a Premier League club home and away to watch it then more fool them.

But there was nothing that Stoke did that was surprising. We knew exactly what was coming. And we did very little to counter it.

Rodgers’ system provides many a good soundbite, but is it becoming increasingly the case of it providing little actual bite?

The passing, the moving, the passion stats. They’re all well and good. And they make for good football to watch. But is that enough in and of itself?

Ive been on record from the very beginning that Rodgers’ teams tend not to score enough goals. I said it when he was hired and I believe it still to be the case now..

We’re low on attacking talent, this isn’t a team fully in Rodgers’ own image and its still early days. But you manage what’s in front of you and I cant honestly say that Brendan’s getting it all right at the moment.

We’re still persisting with playing a striker who doesn’t spend enough time in goal scoring positions. We’re playing wide forwards who dont appear to have that knack of scoring goals at this level to their game, not that they should be expected to given their age like. But if they’re not getting in to those positions then teach them to do it. Or don’t play them so much. Gerrard still isn’t close enough to goal. And to a large extent is being indulged (he should have been subbed off yesterday).

I just cant see where Rodgers is looking to address these matters. Im sure he is (or I hope he is) but I just cant see it.

Stoke can be a rather specialist fixture. Particularly at home. They take the ‘park the bus’ philosophy to its nth degree. But therein lies a possibility to evolve and attempt to overcome. And we never really looked like doing it.

It’s one thing to deflect and blame them for their style. But we need to look at ourselves. Why didn’t we beat them? Why couldn’t we score? Rather than “look what big bullies they are” or “the ref wasn’t good enough”.

They’re good enough excuses. You make your own luck and you beat what’s in front of you. Instead of complaining about Huth’s stamp or Pulis pointing out that Suarez dives (which he does) take a look at how many good goal scoring chances we created. Take a loot at how many shots on target we had. Everything else is smoke and mirrors and simply clouds the mind.

You wont score goals if you don’t have players in the box, you wont score goals if your plan isn’t working and you’ve got no alternative to try and you wont win matches unless you score goals.

In the Norwich round table I said that that result should be looked at in and of itself. Norwich are a truly awful team. This was a proper test of our attacking intent. And we came up well short. Suarez came up short as a no9 and his supporting cast failed to make up for it. Sterling and Suso are exempt from criticism. Everyone else, including Rodgers for playing them, not so much.

Stoke executed their plan perfectly. They knew what they wanted, they knew how to get it and they took it home with them.

How often can the same be said of us?

Much more work needs to be done. There’s no skirting around it.

[Flaccido Dongingo]

While I don't like to see theatrics, and it was wrong of Suarez to do it, I can understand his motives for doing so,
having been kicked from pillar to post by those so called footballers, with no sanction from the referee, maybe he feels it's his only way to win fouls now,
given that referees seem so intent on not applying the rules of the game where he is concerned.

Pulis then criticising him, while completely ignoring his own teams questionable tactics really was the icing on the cake.

As for Joe Cole, he's not a player any of us rate, and to see him coming on, to try and develop chances for us to win a football match was particularly disheartening,
as much as I try not to criticise our players too much, I really think he has very little to offer, has poor match fitness, and doesn't have the pace or guile to beat a man.

[MichaelA]

Now is the winter of our discontent
Made glorious summer by this son of York;
And all the clouds that low'r'd upon our house
In the deep bosom of the ocean buried.

Or son of Antrim. The winter ahead is going to be a cold and dark place for many Reds, especially those fans who have a Top Four mentality and expect our team to roll teams like Stoke over and collect three points. It hasn't been happening for us for a while, so why anyone would have expected it to happen on Sunday is beyond my comprehension. I always 'hope' that we win, but I don't 'expect' it. Especially not these days.

Nevertheless, the clouds that have gathered over Anfield in recent seasons have shown the odd glint of sunlight in recent weeks. There is a style of play evolving that promises much, but currently delivers only sporadically at best. There is talent in the wings (literally), and the prospects are looking good if everyone can keep their nerve. 'Everyone' means the manager and the playing staff, the owners and administrators, and the fans. If any of them lose faith, lose focus, then the clouds will darken again, and Anfield will take on the grey and defeated hues of a Villa Park, or an Elland Road. We simply cannot allow this project to falter at such an early stage in the season. Next summer, the clouds could be revealing a golden sky.

[scared_person]

I agree with Garstonite, Stoke pressed our defenders and made playing it out from the back a difficult business. We never really got into a rhythm in the first half and I think Stoke's pressing had a lot to do with it.

It's something that opposition managers will no doubt have noticed and we're going to have to learn to deal with it quickly. The good news I suppose is that if you can pass round pressing forwards then you're going to open up space further up the pitch.

[LFC at first sight]

I've put some of my 2 cents in the Eyewitness thread earlier, but just wanted to talk a bit about the point made by Cpt_Reina: "We’re still persisting with playing a striker who doesn’t spend enough time in goal scoring positions. We’re playing wide forwards who dont appear to have that knack of scoring goals at this level to their game, not that they should be expected to given their age like. But if they’re not getting in to those positions then teach them to do it. Or don’t play them so much."

I tried working that out too, when Borini started on the wings instead of the spearhead. But when BR explained Suarez's role as a loose forward, in that he squirms and burrows and creates his space in the front on his own, then I reckon the onus shifts from him as the main striker to score goals to the other 4/5 players supporting him to get on ahead when the ball breaks to put the ball into the net. We saw yesterday how many times the ball ricocheted around the box when Suarez tricked his way in, but the ball inevitably falls to a Stoke player.

The one time that I watched Borini played upfront, against Udinese, he made the runs but he couldn't escape his marker in 1-v-1 situations--the lack of speed/guile put paid to his best intentions. This is why I think BR is putting him on the wing, to add the ability to escape from markers into his repertoire. He is not a bad player, by a long shot, but the next step in education is a steep one for him. I hope he makes it, and soon.

The younger wingers, Suso and Sterling, I can't wait for them to mature into goal-scoring threats. They already have so much in their locker, including guts and learning the "body work"--something BR clearly values a lot. But goal-scoring takes confidence, and knowing that after you have tried and failed, the senior fellas don't holler at you for giving it a go. Stevie is the main man, and I'm sure if he encourages them more, they will give it a go for their Cap'n.

[Flinstone]

captain reina's post sums it up.

i feel as a team we are still a bit short in terms of creativity.i like skrtel but there are times on the ball when he's just going through the motions and the pace slowed down  a bit.coates must be pushing him

andre wisdom is a fabulous prospect but not at right back and not with suso in front of him.if we're going for this system we need to really go for it and a right back who's reluctant to attack doesn't really fit.

why was cole in the line-up?no seriously he was ok but i hoped we'd seen the last of him.there's no point of him playing given the project building and his age.

[helmboy_nige]

But talking about the football, and specifically our football. Did we play to the Rodgers system today? Or did we try and go a bit more direct? Steven Gerrard in particular was, to me, guilty of not keeping it simple. Do we think he was under instruction to do so or did he go off script?

I thought for the first half we were playing to the script.  It changed as the second half wore on and became a much more Gerrard-led attempt to be direct which simply didn't work because Stoke setup in numbers to defend against it.  If anything we needed more movement in an effort to break up their blocks so we could get in behind.  We achieved it a number of times and were stopped far too many times to remember due to cynical fouls.

No idea if he (Gerrard) was under instruction to go direct... I doubt it, but then who knows?
 
Did we deserve to win a game in which we dominated possession but didn't really create many chances from it?

I actually don't think we did deserve to win.  We played well, we controlled, and we had some good chances which we should have finished, but we didn't test the keeper anywhere near enough.  Our players from 60 mins onwards seemed afraid of going into the box when we had a guy on the wing about to cross.  The last 30 mins felt like a Kenny game from last season.  Lots of huffing and puffing but with no joy.

The again, if we'd knocked one in on 94 mins of Hendersons arse from an offside position I'd probably be sat here saying we absolutely deserved to win. 
 
A lot of the post match discussion has been about Joe Cole coming on for Suso. The last minute volley aside, what were your thoughts on his cameo, and what do you think the tactical reasons were for his inclusion over, say, Borini?

I wasn't the only one to groan when Cole came on, but you know what?  I thought he put in a very good shift.  He was pressing throughout the midfield for the ball and trying to impress.  I'm not sure it should have been Suso that made way though.
 
Finally, nice to see a clean sheet and a solid game from Pepe eh?

Delighted for him.  he was strong on crosses and made some nice saves.  But... his distribution in some cases was awful and he had to pull off one very good save in the first half because of a poor pass.  Anyway, I don't want to dwell on it, he played well and am so pleased he got a clean sheet to hopefully help his confidence.

Disappointed with the result.  More disappointed than I was after Man U, which is weird for me.  I think it was because of the final 30 mins.  We just looked out of ideas and if we had scored I'd have been surprised.

[Crosby Nick]

I'm someone who has also never 'minded' Stoke until now. Parttly because I never watch them unless I really have to. And maybe because of that I've looked at their 'hard to beat' results and not really paid attention to how they got them and been mildly impressed. Ultimtaley, you know how they're going to play and it's up to the opposition to find a solution.

That said - Juan's diatribe was great to read.

And actually, reading my first paragraph again, maybe it isn't 'just' up to the other team to work out the way to beat them. A strong ref is a necessity too. Good luck finding one of those. A couple of early cards, an early goal and we'd soon see that Stoke have very little to offer. The trouble is they grow stronger with every misplaced pass, groan from the crowd or I daresay 'tumble' from the opposition.

Still, we take the point, be thankful for a clean sheet and then batter Reading (please God) in a fortnight and the ntalk about how 7 points from the last 3 is a positive step in the right direction (and it would be, didn't mean that to sound overly negative).

[Mashy-rawr!nooo]

It's coming. I'll say it every week, but it's inevitable.

Key point there, we will reach it. Take it step at a time. I know we've been in this process for 3-4 years now, but every game I watch under rogers there is at least One positive aspect I can take from the game (even arsenal).

As for stoke, well let a team who wants to grab 21 points away and 36 points at home most seasons play like that. 6 yellow cards. SIX. thats outrageous and while suarez is being crucified, the media should really pick up on Stoke and what a shithouse team they are. They say Preimer league is about excitement, what the fuck is exciting about stoke. I bet an spanish fella doesn't go, 'Stokes on? Alright!' they probably go get a tan on the beach for all they care.

They seem like one of those fairy tale teams. You have your powerhouses, your shithouses, your averagehouses and then you have stoke. The uruk-hai,The killer kroc the fucking dementors  of the BPL, that no-one likes but have to fight against them on a regualr basis

[Resurrected]

As with the second half against Udinese, we allowed the opposition to impose their style on us. We stop playing to our strengths and start playing to theirs. We need to look to our more experienced players to lead but unfortunately, the likes of Gerrard, Skrtel, etc were the worst culprits. When a team presses us like Stoke did yesterday and as Udinese did in the second half, we responded by hitting it long and running into blind alleys. We need to increase our movement and speed of passing. Let the other team run themselves into the ground and stop making it easy for them.

Unfortunately, we lack the quality up front to open teams up when they park the bus. This desperately needs to be addressed in January, but in the meantime we have to make every goal count and stop giving away soft goals ourselves.

[myrlas]

As Lucas is getting closer to a return, my only huge concern is what will happen to the midfield when he returns.

Will Gerrard finally be played where ha can impact results - aka in the front threee linking up with Suarez?

I hope it will happen, meaning I'm most likely will be disappointed.

Enough of that and back to the game. We really, really have an issue with the balance when Johnson is bombing forward and we misplace a pass. It's a dangerous game getting too predictable. That can become suicide by football, instead of death by football.

Looking behind the results, I still see loads of positives - and it will most certainly be some interesting weeks and months ahead.

PS! I would loved to read Juan's rant on Stoke if they still had Delap doing the long throw ins.

[Johnny Foreigner]

Think people are going over-board on the stoke-issue..

I have no problems watching them kicking united or the fancy dans at chelsea all over the place, but feels outraged when they do it against us..

The challenge is to make them look like a pub-team and expose them.. Huth should have been sent out yesterday but he was there for the taking regardless.. When he finally got the booking, he should have been gone in 15 minutes - but that would have been dependent on quicker passing/movement and setting up our front players facing him with the goal in front of them.. Instead we had to settle for playing towards a marked top three where stoke could play their rugby tricks..

[Flaccido Dongingo]

Is there anything to be said for having Andy Carroll in our squad yesterday?, yes I know it's irrelevant as he's not here and that he doesn't "fit in to the system" of Rodgers, but (hypothetically) having a player of his physical presence on the field with about 20 minutes left, an alternative, given that the usual passing game was getting nowhere.

It's a shame as he would have been really effective yesterday.

[redman1974]

We always seem to struggle against stoke but yesterday it was clear only one team really wanted to win it and hitting the post 4 times in the game shows it was clearly us that deserved the 3 points. Since the first game of the season v west brom its clear to me slowly but surely BR ways are starting to work with us,we are right up there as the best footballing\passing side in the country. We may lack a little cutting edge at the minute and once we cut out the silly mistakes we will be fine. Its going to take time to get back to where we want to be but we all need to have patience. Along the way we will have bad and frustrating results but we will also have some great ones to.

[redbyrdz]

Think I disagree with some one here, and especially the post-match thread. I thought we never got our game together. Never managed to string passes together coherently - obviously Stoke did everything to stop us from doing so, but I thought we could've kept the ball more out of their reach. I felt we let them rattle us, instead of playing to our strength.

Sahin especially I thought was out of sorts - he's had frequent misunderstandings with other players and even mishit the ball at least twice.  Think there's something to it, him not playing well with Gerrard (yet, hopefully), because both think the game should go through them. Also I wouldn't have played him ahead of Gerrard, but maybe his recent goalscoring streak convinced Rodgers he's right for that position. Gerrard played well with Alonso, so maybe once those two click, we'll be more fluent. Still when Sahin went off, and desperation was getting worse, we mostly stopped creating from midfield altogether, so he did do something right.

Reina was another player who seemed to get his communication wrong - four times we ended up with short passes in the area, where Stoke tried to pounce (twice Sahin, once Johnson and Gerrard). Not all of those where his fault, but I think it showed a level of confusing in our team that shouldn't be there.

We created very little over the wings, which also had to do with nobody getting ahead of play or into the box. Suarez had no service for the beginning of the match, and then decided to drop into midfield to get the ball, leaving the attack empty. Some of our midfielders did run into the box, but they lurk about like midfielders do - hoping for a shot from the edge of the area instead of making themselves the target of attack. Sterling had some brilliant runs, but he usually get overlooked when he does.

I really think we need a real CF - even playing Morgan or Yesil there would help imo, because they'd focus the attack. I know Barca don't play like that, but they have Messi. And as much as I like Suarez, he's not Messi.

[Funky_Gibbons]

It's very difficult to discuss questions of players, formations and tactics when you are playing a team whose game-plan centred on stopping us playing first, stopping any of our players performing by using any method available and then at some point if you do find yourself in possession of the football, hoof it forward and fight for any scraps that develop. We all know what Stoke are about, we have seen it all too often in the past, but it still angers you every time you have to watch it.

In fact, they are a worse version of the Everton team of the mid 90’s with Duncan Ferguson up front and the ‘dogs of war’ midfield, and I can’t think of a worse insult than that.

But to try and answer some of the questions:

Did we play to the Rodgers system today? Or did we try and go a bit more direct?

As we have seen with other games this season there appears to be a majority of players playing to the Rodger’s system and a few players who have their own ideas. Gerrard is the prime example of this, his passing stats of 59/81 is simply not good enough in a possession based system. Time and again he kept looking for the killer pass as soon as he had possession and would usually result in a long pass that was gobbled up by the Stoke defenders.

Stoke were very good at closing down the midfielders who were dropping deep to receive the ball when Pepe was in possession, this lead to a couple of mistakes and some good chances to Stoke. But it is a tactic we need to keep at. We saw against Norwich how effective this can be for the 5th goal when Allen received a pass deep in his own half but with one turn he had lost the entire midfield. Against Stoke we seemed to lose confidence in this tactic quite early and started to hit it much longer.

Did we deserve to win a game in which we dominated possession but didn't really create many chances from it?

Look at the Chelsea game against this lot and you will see a left-back who scored in the last few minutes to give his side the victory. Stoke are a tough nut to crack. We did have the chances, our own left-back missed a presentable chance and Suarez missed a good chance that he created for himself. In both instances the keeper should have been made to work. Sterling also had a decent opportunity that he must hit across the face of goal rather than the near post.

We may have hit the post three times but none of them were unfortunate as they were all the outside of the post and never really threatened going in.

A lot of the post match discussion has been about Joe Cole coming on for Suso. The last minute volley aside, what were your thoughts on his cameo, and what do you think the tactical reasons were for his inclusion over, say, Borini?

I would have preferred Borini to have come on as his movement would have made Stokes big lumbering centre-backs to have moved with him and this may have created space for someone to run into. If you take away Cole’s history with us then he didin’t do anything wrong in the time he was on, he had a couple of shots which must have been why he was introduced.

The thing is, a Joe Cole type player is exactly what we could do with right now (as well as a goal scorer), someone who plays wide but plays across the lines rather than down the lines. Quite a few times when he received the ball yesterday he was coming inside and this gives him the option of shooting or creating something. Unfortunately we need the Joe Cole form 6-7 years ago rather than the one we have now.

[lukeb1981]

We dont have the right balance at the moment and teams are puting pressure on Pepe with his kick outs or when he has the ball because they know what he is going to do next , we were too predictable against stoke, if you are going to play tikka tack football it has to be done with pace and speed with good movement you drag a team all over the field and when one of team moves out of position or looses position you take advantage.
Our play yesterday was very laboured playing the ball from the left to defence and then to the right and likewise the other way  all stoke had to do was keep their position and then foul us outside the box knowing that we could not penatrate them.
Some of them fouls were GBH ,pack of shite hawkes stoke same as their six finger fans, but we knew that it would be like that.
Got sick to the teeth of the hollywood balls and the constant loss of posession by Gerrard yesterday it goes against everything that Rodgers is trying to do here so the question is what is Rodgers going to do about it...It is not the first game this season were he has been like that ,when he keeps coming back demanding the ball it took sahin and allen out of the game beacuse what was their purpose then if the idea is to build from the back , time and time again he came back demanded the ball then hit a hollywood pass which gave stoke back posession and then didnt close down to win the ball back, im sure Rodgers sees it but what is he going to do about it.
I think when Cole came on everybody got dishartend it was a poor move, should have been Gerrard going off with Henderson coming on and sahin or Allen moving forward to try unlock the defence.
If we are going to keep this style of football then giving the ball away cheaply and trying to force play will have to be stamped out you could see how easy it was for stoke to set up against us yesterday they knew if they stay organised then the issue would be forced and they would get the ball back and be able to hoof it up the field.
The way the young lads played against West brom in the cup was the way to play this football quick passing and closing down when they lost the ball.
Luis well what can you say ,the belly flop was a joke but he was getting kicked all over the pitch and getting no protection as usual,thought that hatrick and free during the week would have gave him more confidence in front of goal but he just tries the hard shot when he could have slotted that shot in the bottom right corner after that run instead of trying to blast  it into the top left.
The positive it was a clean sheet but if a team comes to park the bus that is to be expected.
Still some more work for Brendan to do maybe a striker in January and Lucas coming back might help.

[RooiBefok]

We play at Home, at Anfield, in front of our ‘so-called’ vociferous and passionate supporters and what do we do?  We bend over and allow ourselves to be Rodgered by Pulis’ Team and their Supporters both on and off the field.

For all those who decry Rodgers for not having a Plan B that was it, and may we never see it played again.  What happened to the ‘Death by Football’ and ‘Tika-Taka’ approach that we have so readily played and enjoyed in our previous thirteen games thus far?  The fact that we change our entire approach to a HOME game against fucking Stoke is beyond comprehension.

If ever there was a Team who deserved no recognition or respect it is Stoke.  If ever there was a Team who should be played off the field by our ‘Death by Football’ approach, given their physicality, size and lack of an above average combined IQ, it is Stoke.  But No!  Not us, we change everything that has worked thus far for us and introduce a game plan that encompassed tactics of Rafa, Hodgson and Kenny, all rolled into one.  We had Allen, Sahin, Gerrard and Sterling all camped in the centre circle (see attached ‘Average Player Positions’) kicking, not passing, long balls up to Suarez who was placed much further up the pitch.  This coupled with Reina and our Centre Backs also hoofing ‘Hail Mary’ long balls up to Suarez added to the malarkey.  Had we set-up and played how we have for the last thirteen games, three points yesterday would have been a given.

As for the decision to take off Suso, our third best performer in the 67th minute and replace him with Cole has got to be Rodgers’ worst Brain Fart since taking over the Liverpool reigns.  For the 12 minutes that he played as our ‘Attacking Left’ all I witnessed was him running towards the corner flag.  How that is supposed to help our cause, only he must know.  When moved into Midfield once Sahin was replaced all he did was get in the way of Gerrard.  How this man is reintroduced after injury into a ‘must win’ Premier League game and at the expense of Suso was ludicrous.

Steven Gerrard was brought on in the 65th minute of our Udinese game and upset the apple cart by ignoring the game plan and reverting to his paradigm of long ball ‘Hail Mary’ passes.  In my opinion that in itself resulted in us loosing at Home to Udinese and would have expected Rodgers to have a quiet chat with Gerrard after said game with regards to ‘doing his own thing’.  Obviously this was wishful thinking on my part because from the first whistle yesterday, Gerrard played his game and not that of what we have come to expect from the Rodgers approach.

Whilst I was grateful and respected Gerrard for confronting the Ref on one occasion yesterday, I just wish that he would have done it at every occasion (fouls won) and would do it on a much more regular basis in all our games.  Whilst I imagine it to be Rodgers instruction and philosophy for the players not to surround and hound the refs, perhaps he should review his stance in this regard because whilst acting like respectful gentleman, the Refs still laugh us off and side with the opposition no matter who they are.

Lastly, how Rodgers can categorically state his thanks to the Supporters for their support at yesterday’s game has fractionally lessened the esteem in which I currently hold Rodgers.  The support for our Team was non existent at Anfield and every single Supporter should hang his head in shame.  The support from our Travelling Kop away at West Brom and Norwich was streaks ahead to that of our dismal home support yesterday.

I’m dreading playing Reading at home and would much prefer if it was an away match …

[Fat Scouser]

I sat and watched it again on me todd, last night on LFtv. I'm still confused. What was the system and plan, there then?

For all our passing and moving, an individual slalom, a Hollywood ball, and a speculative thump from distance, were still our best chances of scoring.

While I'm on that, never mind bring back red nets, can we get posts that don't move, and stop our decent efforts and flukes going in. We hit wood more than a lumberjack. But anyway, rather than moan about anything or anyone, I'm putting it down to teething troubles.

If and when this clicks into place, we're going to start battering teams. We've struggled to get round the bus parking outfits for a long time. Nobody, never mind a new manager in his first few games, is going to sort that out overnight.

I stand by what I've said in other round tables. Cut the needless risk taking out at the back. If Charlie Adams was a better footballer, we'd have lost that game. Find a plan B. But having said that, I'm sure Brendan is capable of doing both.

Joe Cole... please just leave.

[redbyrdz]

To be honest, I thought bringing off Suso and Sahin was always going to happen. I was dreading that, because I really like the two, but when we neared substitution-time, I had a think and came to the conclusion that it was most likely those two to be sacrificed. They seemed to fade a bit and neither had their best game - even though Suso had some good moments, it was quite a way off from his performance against Norwich. I would have liked to see Borini and Henderson to come on instead, or maybe Borini and Assaidi (with Suarez dropping deeper). Cole didn't do too badly in all honestly, but the sheer sense of deflation when he came on must've made it clear to everybody including Rodgers (and Cole...) that it was the wrong move.

[jooneyisdagod]

I don't mind Stoke.  They can play the way they please.  If they intend to play a hard, physical game, they have every right to do so.  I think Pulis has done a good job with them to get them up into the league and to keep them there.  But they were aided and abetted in one of the most dirty performances I have witnessed on the pitch by an incompetent and gutless referee.  Stoke finished with 6 yellow cards and this after numerous fouls were not even called and several really rough ''tackles'' that were clear yellows at the very least were just about fouls.  Huth's stamp of course went completely unpunished.  The referee did not afford our players any protection and I don't feel like picking the bones out of this performance given how I think the referee influenced the game. 

That said, I do think we need to improve our finishing.  Gerrard really needs to pack in his superman, hollywood ball act.  He has to learn to trust his teammates and let them grow as players.  The days of him being capable of dragging us through the mire himself are gone and in a team that is so reliant on possession and keeping possession is the ultimate team effort, we simply cannot have Stevie losing the ball so frequently and bringing the pressure on ourselves.  It makes provides our opponents an opportunity to counter attack while simultaneously causing our play to become disjointed.  He really needs to pack it in.  If not, he should be dropped. 

Suarez was again battered and clobbered all over the pitch and still he shined.  How I wish he had the opportunity to play alongside Torres.  But we've got to make do with what we've got and we need Suarez to be more composed in and around the box and that seems to happen when he doesn't have to beat 5 men to get a sight at goal.  Sterling and Suso have made an impact in this respect and against Stoke, Suso in particular showed that he could hack it against the big boys and personally I was very surprised to see him come off for Joe Cole although Cole wasn't too bad after he came on.  Still, I do think we'll be alright.  We are still learning.  It will be difficult but we are trying to integrate at least 4 new players into the team and an entirely new system as well.  It will take time but personally I think the signs aren't bad. 

[John Zac]

I thought there was very little penetration from the right, with Suso always looking to come inside and Wisdom not really being adventurous. I feel Johnson would be better playing as RB. With Suso coming inside looking to shoot or release players into space, Johnson at RB, could have added a bit more penetration to our attack. In fact Johnson is more unpredictable on the right. Suso with his movement could have easily dragged the FB out of position making room for our RB. Johnson and Sterling on the left, with both of them almost making the same kind of runs, it was kind of predictable for Stoke defense.
Steven Gerrard appears to be so desperate at times, to make things happen. IMO his mentality doesn't go well with the possession based game that Rodgers is trying to implement. Every time he got the ball, he is trying to make things happen. He is always looking for the one-twos/through balls/crosses which are actually not there. REad some where that he lost possession more than 25 times, which is way too much for a possession based team. Gerrard has almost curbed his instincts in the ManU and Norwich matches. He is back to his old self, as evident from the last 2 matches.
Introduction of Joe Cole was a surprise. Would have preferred Borini/Assaidi in his place.
Agger with his excellent interceptions and surging runs and Skrtel with aerial dominance and tackles played wonderfully well.
Finally, its not a bad result considering the fact that teams like Arsenal and Swansea who are more similar to us, used to struggle against them.

[Eeyore]

The interesting thing for me is the reaction to Stoke's tactics, it's nothing new it's what they do and other teams manage to cope. Is the reaction down to us being so ill equipped to deal with them. The crazy thing is five foot nothing's Raheem Sterling and Luis Suarez showed more aggression than the rest of the team put together. Yesterday reminds me of the old adage that in England you have to win the battle to earn the right to play. We simply don't have the players with the attitude to win the battle.

Suarez had a running battle with Huth a player twice his size, Sterling was in the face of Cameron for ninety minutes, they turned up for their personal battles no one else in a red shirt did. I am struggling to think of a meaningful challenge put in by Gerrard, Allen or Sahin. Stoke are a huge side, you use that to your advantage you stand toe to toe with them and then punish them when they run out of steam.

In Mourinho's first season they won the League by wining an absolutely brutal battle at Ewood park and celebrated at the end by throwing their shirts into the away fans. United came of age by going toe to toe in brutal battles against Arsenal's George Graham led thugs. We knocked Stoke out of both Cups last season by having the bottle and the physicality to match them early on and then punish them.

Yesterday we were forced to play the ball out from the keeper to marked players because we didn't have a hope in hell of winning the ball from a clearance because we had a front three of Suso, Suarez and Sterling. That is quite simply breathtaking arrogance and a total disregard for the League you play in. If we continue to do that then the message will go out loud and clear that we are a soft touch and especially away from home we will be bullied.

[OperationIvy]

The thing that disturbed me the most was that our best chances were created by either individual dribbling or that long ball that Gerrard played. We still are struggling to get a decent passing move together in the final third.

On another note, I couldnt help but laugh when the Stoke fans started singing "Swing Low, Sweet Chariot" after Joe Coles rugby kick.

[has gone odd]

difficult game to assess, the result wasnt great but stoke did make it a very difficult physical game all day. you park 8 people back defending and thats what happens but we should have had the skills to break them down.

the stamp was a disgrace as was the comical dive from suarez and the ref was too soft on both.

all those bemoaning the inclusion of cole are frankly out of their minds, heard as much about that yesterday as anything else and wonder why. hes on our wage bill and looking to get some game time, hes passed fit to play so why not? he actually seemed to play quite well when he came on bar 'that shot'. its not his fault he was given such a stupid contract and wheelbarrow of cash. his career here hasnt been great due to injury, form and a particularly suspect decision in our opening game against the arse last season which disrupted his game further... ahh, should save all that for the cole thread i guess

in short, i enjoy watching us play, its great we have a real attack minded team but our lack of good strike options is really showing now. was most pleased at keeping a clean sheet which will hopefully pick pepe up a bit.

[Carlos: Very Kickable]

With each game things become clearer:

1. The referees (almost) let Stoke get away with murder because that's what expected of them, They let Suarez get away with nothing because it's expected he'll dive. We need to drastically change how we are managing the referees in the matches - either so the refs can expect the players are their best friends and are sympathetic or that they can expect to get surrounded and get earfuls of abuse if they give a throw-in wrongly. Our hands-off policy trusting the refs has not worked sadly. The captain and manager need to change the strategy,

2. We are doing better in terms of keeping possession but still not working hard enough tracking back and "earning the right to play" as BR put it after Udinese. Add to that the fact that Downing has come out and publically said that bustling and tackling "is not my game" and we have a situation where the next stage of our eveolution relies on the players putting in the hard graft to work now, In that light Borrell has last week given an interview on LFC.com praising Joe Cole's enthusiasm in the reserves and he was nailed on to get an appearance for me - sensible decison by the manager with all talk of tactics aside.

3. Finally we get a clean sheet - fair enough they came for a draw but we need to rebuild Pepe's confidence. If he carries on in the same vein till December we need to be scoping out keepers for the January window - hope it doesn't come to that but goodwill only takes you so far at this level.

4. Pulis is a disgrace. You look at the prematch conference we gave and Brendan Rodgers was right to say there is no "correct" way of playing football and that Pulis has done a good job. Whatever you think of that opinion (and I happen to think its right) it shows class when a lot of other managers in the league are denigrating how Stoke play. And what do we get back? Pulis's smalltime comments about Suarez. FFS, Suarez is on his way towards being a global footballing star and was hacked and kicked all over the pitch by Stoke's team. At least show some respect. Didn't dislike Pulis beforehand but I actively do now.

5. But we also need to get a grip too. There's no use moaning about the likes of Stoke being physical. It reminds me of Arsenal's whinging. First and foremost football is a contact sport and if someone knocks you down in this game you pick yourself up, dust yourself of and knock them down harder until they learn who is boss. The tika-taka football comes second to that. When we dominated the league and in Europe it was because we played beautiful football in combining the power of an English League with the prettiness of a continental passing game. Our teams in the past would never be outmuscled by teams like Stoke. Souness, Mcmahon, Case would have put them on toast and eaten them for breakfast. For me, its why Barcelona still have a way to go to be the greatest ever team  - they are pretty but lack power. This is Liverpool Fucking Football Club. If some jumped-up team wants to mix it let's take the fight to them and bully them before we pass them to death.

EDIT: What's also clear is just how much money we wasted under Kenny / Comolli. Downing was NEVER a Liverpool player no matter what tricks he could do with a ball - character has to come first for our club. Kenny's first signing as manager was Steve Mcmahon and one of his last was Stuart Downing on whom we spunked 20million. Could there be two footballers further apart?

[Buck Pete]

Juan, in amongst that collection of abject and scathing observations was a wonderfully joyous post

As I read through, I initially found myself nodding in respectful agreement to your points and murmuring phrases such as 'aye' and 'agreed'. As your Stokie diatribe reached its crescendo I found myself punching the air and screaming 'YES' at the screen.

My car pass is for the Stanley Rd car-park, this coupled with a foolhardy display of laziness I took a Lower Annie Rd ticket in place of my usual Kop ticket yesterday. After last season I swore I would never sit near their fans again.  True to form my recklessness was once again punished severely.

I can just about handle Stokes unflattering, agricultural style of football as it does get their own desired job done.  However, their particular job is to bulldoze their way to a point then celebrate the said point fervently even if this point was earned against a team who moments earlier featured in such classics as "Charlie Adam thinks your shit", "You’re not famous anymore" ,"Luis Suarez..he looks like a horse" and not forgetting the seminal classic "Steven Gerrard..he hits like a girl".

If we did a Eurovison style competition for football chants I have no doubt the outcome would be..Stoke City...Nil Point.

[Fat Scouser]

The interesting thing for me is the reaction to Stoke's tactics, it's nothing new it's what they do and other teams manage to cope. Is the reaction down to us being so ill equipped to deal with them. The crazy thing is five foot nothing's Raheem Sterling and Luis Suarez showed more aggression than the rest of the team put together. Yesterday reminds me of the old adage that in England you have to win the battle to earn the right to play. We simply don't have the players with the attitude to win the battle.

I loved Souness and McMahon as players, as much as I hate them now as pundits. But like you said Al, we don't have them type of players. So, we've no choice but to try and outplay the likes of Stoke and pass them off the park.

That's why I was confused by yesterday's performance. Out of all the games we've played so far, this one was the furthest away from Brendan's plan. And our best opportunities came from dribbles, long balls, and balls over the top, when maybe we'd have created more by sticking to the script.

I know one thing though, Brendan's only been here ten minutes. If he's going to suceed he'll need time for himself, patience from us and a few bob from the owners. So, all I can do is, see this as teething troubles and hope he gets it right.

Of course I'll talk about the football and the faults I see. There's nothing wrong with that, but we're going to have to give the lad a bit of leeway, an all. His head must be wrecked this morning, and I know he gets paid big bucks to sort them headaches out. And like anyone else who thinks about the club, I'm going to have me doubts. But I'm not going to judge anything until he's had a bit of time, and got some more players in. Hopefully, he can find a half ways decent striker in January for the sort of money he'll be given and he'll have Lucas back. If he had that from January to May, it would be still too early to fully judge, but it would give us a better idea of whether he will suceed in the long run.

It's impossible to jude anything on a game of murder ball between fully grown grocks and a handful of kids.

[steveeastend]

Think its easy to just slate Stoke but they weren't a surprise  and for once Lawrenson said something I agree with (does make me question whether its right though) - we dont get anywhere near enough players forward - happened against Udinese as well - yes we could get a goal and the whole game shifts but we didnt and we generally dont.

we used to come strong in games at the end thats when we had players in the box occupying defenders - giving them choices, blocking the runs they needed to block passes or clear the ball  - we just dont do it - again and again yesterday we had just 4 players dotted across the 20 yard line with nowhere to go, waiting for a runner that didn't come because there was nowhere to run into.

against Udinese we had players looking up to see nobody waiting for the ball  - so they just kept it and passed it to death

we had the same issue when rafa used to control games - no goals

the best way to open teams up is to get an early goal - for that you need to start sharp, with a fast tempo, early pressure on nervous palyers - we dont we try to keep the ball which negates that advantage -

 
the beginning and end of games should be our time - thats when we dominate - the middle of teh game is where we pass teams to death - but for that to work we need goals

how do we use Suarez - he isn't Messi - he isn't Ronaldo - he's a different type of player - introduce a genuine striker and play Suarez wide and you lose part of what makes the wee man so effective - play somebody with him to make space for him and you maximise his threat -

for those who can see it coming, exactly what can you see coming because for me the plan is flawed in a couple of key areas  but what nees to happen to see the goals arrive?

When it was Dalglish any arguments for 'luck' where quickly torn down, arguments for time where turned into a transfer debacke - so where are we short - what needs to change, what positions need to be improved - what changes to make it work? Better passing, better runs?

what else is Suarez supposed to be doing?

what else are the wide players supposed to do, that they are not doing?

what else are the midfielders supposed to do that they are not doing?

the fulbacks?

the centre halves?

what is it that is going to change to create the goals that we are lacking - what makes you believe its not the system that needs tweaking?

I appreciate this is all negative but i think the lad is close to making something happen.  I'm just worried that close may just stay close unless he changes things I dont think he wants to change.

Great post mate.

Kenny suffered from the same problem, we simply need more and better quality in our attacking play. Better players. The young lads shouldn´t carry the weight here. At the end we have only Suarez and Gerrard left when it comes to senior players in attack. And that´s simply not enough. Not under Kenny and not under Rodgers.

You rightly pointed out that we controlled the game just as under Rafa. Although we for sure do it differently than under Rafa, I think it´s very good sign considering the number of youngsters. The game was very good, we dominated, had chances and gave them little to nothing, from a tactical point of view that´s all you could ask for I think.

What is missing is what has been destroyed in recent years transfer wise. This game didn´t change my positive thoughts on Rodgers at all, we will be fine next season, I am very sure of this. Just as I was sure that Kenny could have been successful when buidling on the squad he had in his first couple of month. Why we, he, or whoever changed this and brought in all those midtable players like Adam, Downing, Carroll, Enrique I will never understand and we are suffering from exactly these mistakes in transfers and no manager in the world could make us winning on a regular basis at the moment. We are missing so much in our attacking play that a 17 year old kid has to step in which says it all really.

To take this even further, I think the harsh truth is that we suffered in our attacking play probably since Athens and Torres just deflacted from this. Everything was build arround Gerrard, there was simply no room for someone else to gradually step in as he was just too dominating all these years. Now Gerrard is about to retire and there is nothing left, really, besides Suarez. We just failed to look for the right substitute(s) to gradually bring in over the years, or we shipped them out for whatever reason.

I am always for a short term plan, concentrating on being succesful the very next game, but at the moment we don´t have any other choice as the backbone of Rafas heritage in attack and midfield is gone which make some sort of short term thinking impossible. For that, implementing a philosophy of play before bringing in new top players is the best we could go for at the moment and I rather have this than trying to "save the season" with the likes of Downing, Adam and Spearing.

[Groundskeeper Willie]

Did we play to the Rodgers system today? Or did we try and go a bit more direct? Steven Gerrard in particular was, to me, guilty of not keeping it simple. Do we think he was under instruction to do so or did he go off script?

I don´t think we did. The style struck me as more direct, but I can´t imagine that being the instructions from Rodgers. The main culprits were Gerrard and Suarez I felt. Sahin got shut out of the game as some players were impatient. Had he seen more of the ball and if we had passed it more patiently I felt that we could have opened them up more. As it were, Huth and Shawcross had a very comfortable game. To unlock these teams we need to pass, pass and pass to make them move from side to side and eventually space will open up. I know this is controversial for some, but I was really disappointed in Gerrard´s performance yesterday, mainly because it felt like he played his own game and not within the system.
 
Did we deserve to win a game in which we dominated possession but didn't really create manay chances from it?

I really think we did. But yet again bad finishing and poor decision making in deciding moments cost us. Johnson´s miss from Gerrard´s glorious pass was shocking, as was Suarez's when clean through. Could have been goal of the season, but the finish felt rushed. Also, if Sterling had made a better decision to square the ball to Sahin, the Turk could have tapped it in. So we created enough clear cut chances to win absolutely.

A lot of the post match discussion has been about Joe Cole coming on for Suso. The last minute volley aside, what were your thoughts on his cameo, and what do you think the tactical reasons were for his inclusion over, say, Borini?

He was by no means any worse than any other player. I just don´t get the rationale behind putting him on to change anything, having been out injured so long, meaning he was nowhere near match fit. We needed more movement in the final third and Borini would have provided that with his intelligent runs. I would also have kept Suso on and brought Sterling off as I think Suso´s better equipped to bypass the parked bus than Raheem.

Finally, nice to see a clean sheet and a solid game from Pepe eh?

Agree.

[Eeyore]

I loved Souness and McMahon as players, as much as I hate them now as pundits. But like you said Al, we don't have them type of players. So, we've no choice but to try and outplay the likes of Stoke and pass them off the park.

That's why I was confused by yesterday's performance. Out of all the games we've played so far, this one was the furthest away from Brendan's plan. And our best opportunities came from dribbles, long balls, and balls over the top, when maybe we'd have created more by sticking to the script.

I know one thing though, Brendan's only been here ten minutes. If he's going to suceed he'll need time for himself, patience from us and a few bob from the owners. So, all I can do is, see this as teething troubles and hope he gets it right.

Of course I'll talk about the football and the faults I see. There's nothing wrong with that, but we're going to have to give the lad a bit of leeway, an all. His head must be wrecked this morning, and I know he gets paid big bucks to sort them headaches out. And like anyone else who thinks about the club, I'm going to have me doubts. But I'm not going to judge anything until he's had a bit of time, and got some more players in. Hopefully, he can find a half ways decent striker in January for the sort of money he'll be given and he'll have Lucas back. If he had that from January to May, it would be still too early to fully judge, but it would give us a better idea of whether he will suceed in the long run.

It's impossible to jude anything on a game of murder ball between fully grown grocks and a handful of kids.

It's not even Souness or McMahon Leo how long ago was it that we had the likes of Riise, Sami, Soto, Mascherano, Alonso, Sissoko, a young Gerrard, Kuyt or Bellamy. Players who could stand up to a physical onslaught and then kick on and play the opposition off the park. What summed it up for me was Huth stamping on Suarez and Walters flattening Johnson whilst he was in the air and our players standing for it.

If Stoke had done that at Old Trafford or Stamford bridge there would of been twenty players going toe to toe. At one stage Gerrard got jolly angry with the Ref and that was it. If someone stamped on Suarez whilst he was playing for Uruguay would his team mates look the other way would they fuck. It's not the Ref's that will force Suarez out it will be his team mates if they don't start sticking up for him.

You look at Torres giving Carra the all talk sign during the Goodison Derby and think back to Lusitao kicking Torres six foot up in the air and Babel getting sent off for sticking up for him whilst his team mates looked the other way. Would you want to go into the trenches with our lot. It's not down to Rodgers we have been a soft touch since 08/09 when we stopped thinking and playing as a team.