Topic: FT: Liverpool 1 vs Palace 2 (Phil 23' Benteke 42' 73')

[mattD]

The issue with Lovren is that he's far too inconsistent. He often puts in a brilliant performance, only to follow it up with a wholly unacceptable performance.

The problem with Liverpool is that showing you're capable is not enough. It is all about consistency, and how many of this squad can be seen as consistent performers? Very few - and that sums up our squads under FSG's tenure. You get what you pay for.

[jillcwhomever]

That is what made yesterday so painful for me, as JK had gone public with how "exciting" he thought transfer targets thought the Liverpool project was.  Losing to CP, same reoccurring problems with a lead in the game and that performance would have shot most any deal for a quality player out the window.

Now, I know this is not how players, agents, and clubs make decisions, but this turd laid at the feet of the Anfield faithful yesterday may linger beyond (Watford, Soton, West Ham, and Boro).

The Southampton game?  When was the last time we scored against them, again?

Our attacking play will improve with Lallana coming back he is an important link between our Brazilians, and we will create more chances. We need to be more ruthless though with the chances we create.

[fewmin' bedwetter]

Is it time for Jurgen to think about a more standard 4-2-3-1 with a double pivot, a la Wanyama/Dembele or Matic/Kante, as opposed to one, with two more advanced, would it help with our conceding these "stupid" goals?

Does anyone know if he played that 4-2-3-1 at Dortmund? If so, why has he stuck with Brendan's inverted triangle here?

[Pistolero]

The double pivot and the inverted triangle....fuck me...I wondered what had happened to Andy Townsend's Tactics Truck

[fewmin' bedwetter]

The double pivot and the inverted triangle....fuck me...I wondered what had happened to Andy Townsend's Tactics Truck

Yeah, sorry, went into Brendan speak a bit there! You know what I mean... Or somebody does hopefully.

[jillcwhomever]

Is it time for Jurgen to think about a more standard 4-2-3-1 with a double pivot, a la Wanyama/Dembele or Matic/Kante, as opposed to one, with two more advanced, would it help with our conceding these "stupid" goals?

Does anyone know if he played that 4-2-3-1 at Dortmund? If so, why has he stuck with Brendan's inverted triangle here?

Yes he did play 4-2-3-1 at Dortmund. As for why he has stuck with the above formation, maybe he just feels it suits the players we have, a little better at the moment. 

[Thats So Dimitar]

Is it time for Jurgen to think about a more standard 4-2-3-1 with a double pivot, a la Wanyama/Dembele or Matic/Kante, as opposed to one, with two more advanced, would it help with our conceding these "stupid" goals?

Does anyone know if he played that 4-2-3-1 at Dortmund? If so, why has he stuck with Brendan's inverted triangle here?

Neither of those duos are played as a double pivot or in a 4-2-3-1. Wanyama-Dembele were played in a 4-2-3-1 for a few games and it produced absolutely dire attacking football.

[fewmin' bedwetter]

Yes he did play 4-2-3-1 at Dortmund. As for why he has stuck with the above formation, maybe he just feels it suits the players we have, a little better at the moment.

Thanks - I had a feeling he did.

[fewmin' bedwetter]

Neither of those duos are played as a double pivot or in a 4-2-3-1. Wanyama-Dembele were played in a 4-2-3-1 for a few games and it produced absolutely dire attacking football.

Well that dire attacking football hasn't done Spurs too much harm this season, has it?

My point was about how we might stop conceding soft goals.

[him_15]

Hugely disappointed, by both performance and result.

[vinothmct]

You know what frustrates me to the core?

The way we concede the first goal. A simple pass to lovren striker presses and panic sets in. Somehow we manage a corner but concede. I guess this happened in bournemoth game too.We have conceded 5-6 goals like this. Misplaced pass and opposition get an opportunity.

Top4 looks bleak. Even our GD is low now. Hightime FSG pull out money or fuck right off. We aint gonna win shit by buying toddlers.

Half a decade and we are still starting. Revenue wise we are one of the Top10 clubs in the world. Hope we start behaving like one

[Cormack Snr]

Right, and it's only because of this game? Nothing to do with his performances since joining?

If we want to take that next step Lovren is not good enough, he makes mistakes in every game and puts us under pressure. That can apply to most of the team. Klopp has got us close to the top table with a threadbare squad and average Premier players. Every team in the league has players on par with us, all these teams we have struggled against have looked as good as us on the day.

[Rush 82]

I think we will always be a little susceptible at the back simply because we always ask our full backs to bomb on hence why I think a top deep lying midfielder should be top priority. Kante has been so good simply because he can break up attacks before they become dangerous and get Chelsea back onto the attack with a simple pass (without necessarily being the most creative). His engine makes him a complete player. At the moment, both Hendo and Can have elements of the above but not the full package. We have missed this since Lucas done his cruciate (and Masch before him).

Everyone keeps saying this and yet most of the soft goals we concede are from set pieces - which have the square of zero to do with full backs bombing on. 

Oh and regarding being able to bomb forward, for  that first goal for instance, how the hell does the Benteke we saw last season outrun our FBs to get to that ball?

We need better defenders (our goals against column doth not lie) and another pacy intelligent forward like Mane.

[Fitzy.]

First post since the defeat. Didn't want to read the shit storm after the game.

Still gutted but I'm still operating on the presumption that everyone else will be perfect. Which is nonsense. Top 4 is very do-able. It's on.

[Groundskeeper Willie]

or not sold him to another premier league team so he could come back and bite us in the ass. More pathetic management by the club.

If there was another club from abroad willing to stump up £30m, I'm sure the club would've prefered that. But the market in England is a different beast. Many clubs can pay big money for players, even lower league sides, for players like Benteke. Besides, the player himself might've had the preference to stay in the PL.

[jillcwhomever]

You know what frustrates me to the core?

The way we concede the first goal. A simple pass to lovren striker presses and panic sets in. Somehow we manage a corner but concede. I guess this happened in bournemoth game too.We have conceded 5-6 goals like this. Misplaced pass and opposition get an opportunity.

Top4 looks bleak. Even our GD is low now. Hightime FSG pull out money or fuck right off. We aint gonna win shit by buying toddlers.

Half a decade and we are still starting. Revenue wise we are one of the Top10 clubs in the world. Hope we start behaving like one

No it doesn't look bleak, come Sunday it could be a completely different situation. So much could happen, don't get why people can only see the worst situation. The Manc derby is key, should United lose that, they have only to drop another point, and suddenly we're back in it. There is still everything to play for.

[Pistolero]

Tuesday morning....nope, doesn't feel any better

[redbyrdz]

We need better defenders (our goals against column doth not lie) and another pacy intelligent forward like Mane.

I'm not sure about this blaming of the defense, if I'm honest. How come they can cope with all the attacking power of the top six teams, but fail against the bottom teams?

I think our problem is more mental, we always concede when we slow the game down or try to keep it steady. We need to play with more intensity and focus. We do that quite well when attacking, but we switch off when defending or trying to see a game out. Against Palace you could feel both their goal coming, not because they got into the game better, but because we got sloppy and messy for minutes before that. We won't improve our record against bottom teams until we fix that.

[Groundskeeper Willie]

I'm not sure about this blaming of the defense, if I'm honest. How come they can cope with all the attacking power of the top six teams, but fail against the bottom teams?

I think our problem is more mental, we always concede when we slow the game down or try to keep it steady. We need to play with more intensity and focus. We do that quite well when attacking, but we switch off when defending or trying to see a game out. Against Palace you could feel both their goal coming, not because they got into the game better, but because we got sloppy and messy for minutes before that. We won't improve our record against bottom teams until we fix that.

The back four we have isn't good enough personell wise though. We have a midfielder playing on the left and one of our starting CB's is prone to brain farts. It doesn't matter if you play well for 85 minutes, only to cause mistakes leading to goals.

 Those 2 positions need upgrading.

[Funky_Gibbons]

I'm not sure about this blaming of the defense, if I'm honest. How come they can cope with all the attacking power of the top six teams, but fail against the bottom teams?

I think our problem is more mental, we always concede when we slow the game down or try to keep it steady. We need to play with more intensity and focus. We do that quite well when attacking, but we switch off when defending or trying to see a game out. Against Palace you could feel both their goal coming, not because they got into the game better, but because we got sloppy and messy for minutes before that. We won't improve our record against bottom teams until we fix that.

Our system leaves our centre-backs exposed, look at what Allardyce said after the game:

"Liverpool at home play a superb attacking style in terms of football which means that both full-backs will go right up the pitch. It is very similar to Arsenal which means (Joel) Matip and (Dejan) Lovren are very exposed," he said.

If someone like Allardyce can spot this then it’s fairly likely everyone else has too.

The top teams play a more passing style of football so our press becomes more of weapon and helps us defensively but the lower teams bypass it will long balls through the channels. The concern is, given our record against the top teams, they will switch their tactics to a more direct approach to bypass our press, much like United did in both games.

[LiamG]

Solution would be to get some wingers and use them as width instead and not have our FB's bomb forward so much?

[The North Bank]

Or play 3 at the back, everyone else is doing it. Then the full backs can go forward knowing  there is an extra man protection behind them.

[Chris~]

Or play 3 at the back, everyone else is doing it. Then the full backs can go forward knowing  there is an extra man protection behind them.

We've tried it and had the same issues.

[Funky_Gibbons]

Solution would be to get some wingers and use them as width instead and not have our FB's bomb forward so much?

Look at the two teams who are probably the most ‘balanced’ in the league, Chelsea and Spurs. Chelsea play with three centre backs so they have a numerical advantage there but they also have Matip and Kante giving protection.

Spurs have played three at the back often and have two of Dier, Wanyama and Dembele protecting them. For most of the season we’ve had Henderson as our deepest midfielder who has never played there before. Lucas has come in recently but he’s not even playing as a true DM as he’s getting forward and hasn’t got the pace or stamina to get up and down. 

[redbyrdz]

Or play 3 at the back, everyone else is doing it. Then the full backs can go forward knowing  there is an extra man protection behind them.

We did that late on against palace - when Lovren went off we changed both full backs and went three at the back (two of them midfielders admittingly).

[ryan125]

If you are going to ask your fullbacks to bomb forward at every opportunity, they need to be far FAR better in attack. What is the point in them getting forward as an "outlet" only to pass back to Matip or Lovren everytime, and yet they are STILL risking the counter attack? All the risk with no reward.

We have really attacking fullbacks (systemwise) who aren't very good at attacking. This is easily what bothers me the most at LFC right now, and hope it's corrected on both sides. I like Clyne against tough teams, but against mid table teams at Anfield....we can do better.

It seems every team I watch in the Champions league has more exciting attacking fullbacks than us.

Other than that. Very disappointing game, although I liked our tempo. Would hate to lose out on a champions league place to United at this stage.

[Mighty_Red]

The issue with Lovren is that he's far too inconsistent. He often puts in a brilliant performance, only to follow it up with a wholly unacceptable performance.

Lovren is fast becoming just like Skrtel, brilliant at times, hopeless at others and seems to have similar issues on the turn. I think any CB we look at in the summer not only has to be a leader but an organiser as well. Even though Lovren & Matip have worked well as a partnership for the most part I don't think either is a leader/organiser which is often where we fall down. For the corner, nobody seemed to really know what their jobs and I find it hard to believe that it wasn't prepared for so it is up to one or two guys to remind everyone of their responsibilities. Carra used to do that but Lovren can't because he often loses his shit in these situations.

[DonkeyWan]

If you are going to ask your fullbacks to bomb forward at every opportunity, they need to be far FAR better in attack. What is the point in them getting forward as an "outlet" only to pass back to Matip or Lovren everytime, and yet they are STILL risking the counter attack? All the risk with no reward.

We have really attacking fullbacks (systemwise) who aren't very good at attacking. This is easily what bothers me the most at LFC right now, and hope it's corrected on both sides. I like Clyne against tough teams, but against mid table teams at Anfield....we can do better.

It seems every team I watch in the Champions league has more exciting attacking fullbacks than us.

Other than that. Very disappointing game, although I liked our tempo. Would hate to lose out on a champions league place to United at this stage.

I agree on this, a lot of the problems at the moment stem from our fullback positions. I think its no coincidence that Liverpool's erratic form has coincided with Milner tiring and going off the boil a little. Both fullback positions are a priority for the summer, but so too is the midfield and with Sturridge essentially broken a striker will also be needed. Can't see FSG spending big on 5 or 6 players either, so I suspect next year will be another incomplete year.

[Mighty_Red]

We did that late on against palace - when Lovren went off we changed both full backs and went three at the back (two of them midfielders admittingly).

Considering we provided almost zero threat for 20mins I'm not sure that was a success!!! 3 at the back can work in certain situations and for certain teams, but I'm not sure that it can ever be a long term option. When Rodgers did it, it was a brilliant success for a while until somebody tore it apart and it collapsed dramatically. Chelsea are helped due to the fact that they have Kante and that Conte is far better at organising a defence than Klopp will ever be (not a slight on Klopp).

[Funky_Gibbons]

Considering we provided almost zero threat for 20mins I'm not sure that was a success!!! 3 at the back can work in certain situations and for certain teams, but I'm not sure that it can ever be a long term option. When Rodgers did it, it was a brilliant success for a while until somebody tore it apart and it collapsed dramatically. Chelsea are helped due to the fact that they have Kante and that Conte is far better at organising a defence than Klopp will ever be (not a slight on Klopp).

The three at the back under Rodgers worked fine up until it came out that Sterling wasn't going to sign a new contract. He was our main attacker in that formation and his lack of effort after that ruined our season.

[Day1983]

Our attacking play will improve with Lallana coming back he is an important link between our Brazilians, and we will create more chances. We need to be more ruthless though with the chances we create.

We shouldn't be having to wait for a player to come back so we can be creative again, we should have someone to come in whilst he's out.

[Redric1970]

Oblak
Clyne
Van djik
Matip
Sessegnon
Kieta
Henderson
Costa
Mane
Coutinho
Lacazette

Subs
Karius
Gomez
firminio
Winjaldum
Milner
Lallana
Ings


There you go easy peasy lol it's a carlsberg dream but if your gonna dream dream big, I'm trying to be positive and I do think Utd and Arsenal will drop points, I'm just not confident that we won't drop just as many.

[proudred]

Oblak
Clyne
Van djik
Matip
Sessegnon
Kieta
Henderson
Costa
Mane
Coutinho
Lacazette

Subs
Karius
Gomez
firminio
Winjaldum
Milner
Lallana
Ings


There you go easy peasy lol it's a carlsberg dream but if your gonna dream dream big, I'm trying to be positive and I do think Utd and Arsenal will drop points, I'm just not confident that we won't drop just as many.

Clyne still in the lineup have you seen his performances the last couple of months ?

[Redric1970]

Clyne still in the lineup have you seen his performances the last couple of months ?

I still think although his form has dropped he's a good player, and I'm still hopeful he will turn good, and I think someone like Keita would make a massive difference to us defensively sitting in front of the back four along with Henderson.

[liversaint]

No it doesn't look bleak, come Sunday it could be a completely different situation. So much could happen, don't get why people can only see the worst situation. The Manc derby is key, should United lose that, they have only to drop another point, and suddenly we're back in it. There is still everything to play for.

Saved me pointing it out. Serial moaner, with added dig at FSG

[JackWard33]

Considering we provided almost zero threat for 20mins I'm not sure that was a success!!! 3 at the back can work in certain situations and for certain teams, but I'm not sure that it can ever be a long term option. When Rodgers did it, it was a brilliant success for a while until somebody tore it apart and it collapsed dramatically. Chelsea are helped due to the fact that they have Kante and that Conte is far better at organising a defence than Klopp will ever be (not a slight on Klopp).

Nah it's a myth that 3 at the back has a limited life span and teams figure it out  - Conte has won title after title with it now with different personnel 
There's nothing magical about it though it's just a different system it can be good or bad depending on personnel or organization.
We can't play it because we don't have the personnel - we don't have ball playing centre backs and we don't have players who can be effective at wing back

[JackWard33]

The three at the back under Rodgers worked fine up until it came out that Sterling wasn't going to sign a new contract. He was our main attacker in that formation and his lack of effort after that ruined our season.

That's not true though - it never didn't really work.  It worked extremely well apart from one game where we played horribly agaisnt united and rodgers inexplicably abandoned it.
But it worked because he had Sakho and can in the back 3 who were good on the ball. And Moreno is a good wing back. It also suited Coutinho and Lallana really well
We shouldn't be doing it now because our personnel is different but it was a great set up for that team

[LallanaInPyjamas]

That's not true though - it never didn't really work.  It worked extremely well apart from one game where we played horribly agaisnt united and rodgers inexplicably abandoned it.
But it worked because he had Sakho and can in the back 3 who were good on the ball. And Moreno is a good wing back. It also suited Coutinho and Lallana really well
We shouldn't be doing it now because our personnel is different but it was a great set up for that team

Didn't Rodgers abandon it after the Arsenal game? Again, mostly due to personnel. Skrtel and Can were both suspended and that system never really suited Lovren or Toure.

If you are going to ask your fullbacks to bomb forward at every opportunity, they need to be far FAR better in attack. What is the point in them getting forward as an "outlet" only to pass back to Matip or Lovren everytime, and yet they are STILL risking the counter attack? All the risk with no reward.

Agreed. Klopp needs to make Coutinho and Firmino (or whoever is out wide) stay wider. They have the talent to move inside with the ball rather than constantly moving inside without it, but in my opinion they're both completely indisciplined and I wonder if Klopp bollocking Firmino was related to this.

[Funky_Gibbons]

That's not true though - it never didn't really work.  It worked extremely well apart from one game where we played horribly agaisnt united and rodgers inexplicably abandoned it.
But it worked because he had Sakho and can in the back 3 who were good on the ball. And Moreno is a good wing back. It also suited Coutinho and Lallana really well
We shouldn't be doing it now because our personnel is different but it was a great set up for that team

No, that’s not true.

Sterling’s agent announced he wasn’t going to sign a contract on 21st May, the day before we lost 2-1 at home to United, our first defeat in 13-games. Up until then we’d played 14 games with three at the back, winning ten of them and were 5th in the league. We then lost to Villa in the FA Cup semi-final and to Arsenal. We played it twice more that season and lost both of them.

Sterling was probably our main player at that time and his drop off in form after that announcement cost us big time. 

[LallanaInPyjamas]

No, that’s not true.

Sterling’s agent announced he wasn’t going to sign a contract on 21st May, the day before we lost 2-1 at home to United, our first defeat in 13-games. Up until then we’d played 14 games with three at the back, winning ten of them and were 5th in the league. We then lost to Villa in the FA Cup semi-final and to Arsenal. We played it twice more that season and lost both of them.

Sterling was probably our main player at that time and his drop off in form after that announcement cost us big time.

He didn't pick himself at right wing-back against Manchester United to be fair.