Author Topic: General Election on June 8th  (Read 414721 times)

Offline Alan_X

  • WUM. 'twatito' - The Cat Herding Firm But Fair Voice Of Reason (Except when he's got a plank up his arse). Gimme some skin, priest! Has a general dislike for Elijah Wood. Clearly cannot fill even a thong! RAWK Resident Muppet. Has a crush o
  • RAWK Staff
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 53,269
  • Come on you fucking red men!!!
  • Super Title: This is super!
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1360 on: April 23, 2017, 11:13:17 pm »
Dear Alan,

The General Election on 8 June gives us all a huge opportunity to elect a Labour government to make our country work for the many, not just the few. In the coming weeks we will be publishing our election manifesto setting out our proposals.

Labour is a movement and our strength is collective. So I want to hear your priorities for our manifesto. How do you think we can best deliver prosperity for all, end the crisis in our public services, and ensure that everyone gets the opportunity to unlock their potential?

Have your say on the manifesto here

The consultation period runs until Tuesday 2 May. I hope that members and supporters will take the opportunity to get involved in shaping our message, as well as getting out on the streets to deliver a Labour government.

Together, we can deliver a country for the many not the few.

Yours,

Jeremy Corbyn
Leader of the Labour Party


Cheers Jezza.

I had a quick look through some of the latest submissions to the Policy Forum. This gem was in the Justice section:

Posted on 21-04-17 by John Jack Number of votes: 0 | Number of comments: 0

crimes should be controlled with fines and labour

All these suggestions does NOT apply to people who  have done non-serious crimes and it was their first time.

Firstly, anyone hiding money or evading taxes should be fined not double but triple. Crimes involving murder, attempted murder and armed bank robbery would result in heavy labour along with fnes but the labour would be the main focus

Next, any crimes involving all kinds of robbery, drug dealing or human trafficking would result in heavy fines with labour but fines would be the main focus.

Also, if people do serious crimes and do not do labour a death penalty should be introduced. However, these are in rare occasions.

Finally, all criminals lose more rights the more crimes they commit. While that might go against human rights, criminals who will continue doing crimes do deserve less



I expect that to be Labour policy by the end of the week.


Seriously, the best reason for having a representative democracy is that we elect and pay MPs and their staff to get the best information, the best research and come up with policies that are well thought through and based on good foundations.

With all due respect, the crowning achievements of the Labour Party over the years were not developed by asking Twitter for 'likes' they were developed by people with intelligence and political nous.
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
09/03/2011 08:04
Give a man a mask and he will tell the truth, Give a man a user name and he will act like a total twat.
Its all about winning shiny things.

Online TepidT2O

  • Deffo NOT 9"! MUFC bedwetter. Grass. Folically-challenged, God-piece-wearing, monkey-rubber. Jizz aroma expert. Operating at the lower end of the distribution curve...has the hots for Alan. Bastard. Fearless in transfer windows with lack of convicti
  • Lead Matchday Commentator
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 93,679
  • Dejan Lovren fan club member #1
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1361 on: April 23, 2017, 11:14:51 pm »
That's what I replied....

Although slightly more rudely...
“Happiness can be found in the darkest of times, if one only remembers to turn on the light.”
“Generosity always pays off. Generosity in your effort, in your work, in your kindness, in the way you look after people and take care of people. In the long run, if you are generous with a heart, and with humanity, it always pays off.”
W

Offline classycarra

  • The Left Disonourable Chuntering Member For Scousepool.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 30,396
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1362 on: April 23, 2017, 11:15:51 pm »
If they've got a vision and think they can win an election then it's their moral duty to stand imo. If they're scared a few people in the audience might clap louder for Corbyn then they're not going to last fighting the Tories.

Owen Smith and Angela Eagle felt that duty, and acted on it.

Their actions required more stomach for conflict, and were probably more difficult than anything Corbyn has managed in a career that's decades longer than both of theirs. Disingenuous to act like they only received some discomfort based on audience's clapping performances. Even more so if you'd put forward that Corbyn is more of a fighter

Offline classycarra

  • The Left Disonourable Chuntering Member For Scousepool.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 30,396
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1363 on: April 23, 2017, 11:19:55 pm »
I expect that to be Labour policy by the end of the week.

Don't be daft Alan, did you not read that Corbyn's office recently realised they'd completely missed thousands of peoples emails?

What chances do his office of 30 people have of rehashing shit like that example into a manifesto in a couple of weeks? More likely they'll plagiarise Ed Milliband's manifesto homework and pass it off as theirs. It's most of what they've done to date

Offline Alan_X

  • WUM. 'twatito' - The Cat Herding Firm But Fair Voice Of Reason (Except when he's got a plank up his arse). Gimme some skin, priest! Has a general dislike for Elijah Wood. Clearly cannot fill even a thong! RAWK Resident Muppet. Has a crush o
  • RAWK Staff
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 53,269
  • Come on you fucking red men!!!
  • Super Title: This is super!
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1364 on: April 23, 2017, 11:21:38 pm »
If they've got a vision and think they can win an election then it's their moral duty to stand imo. If they're scared a few people in the audience might clap louder for Corbyn then they're not going to last fighting the Tories.

I don't think they're scared of people clapping louder, or even shouting them down. They just see the mindless zealotry of his supporters and as long as they have enough votes it's pointless standing. I;ve spent years studying conspiracy theorists and committed Corbyn supporters share all of the characteristics of a conspiracy theorist: they know they are right and everyone else is wrong; any evidence that their conviction is unfounded is evidence that there's a wider conspiracy; anyone who can't see the truth must be a shill or a sheep; the Main Stream Media are hiding the truth...
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
09/03/2011 08:04
Give a man a mask and he will tell the truth, Give a man a user name and he will act like a total twat.
Its all about winning shiny things.

Offline Danny55

  • Main Stander
  • ***
  • Posts: 214
  • Evertonian
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1365 on: April 23, 2017, 11:23:12 pm »
Owen Smith and Angela Eagle felt that duty, and acted on it.

Their actions required more stomach for conflict, and were probably more difficult than anything Corbyn has managed in a career that's decades longer than both of theirs. Disingenuous to act like they only received some discomfort based on audience's clapping performances. Even more so if you'd put forward that Corbyn is more of a fighter

It's the life of a politician, mate. Any vitriol they received was only coming at them ten times stronger if they'd won the election.

You say it's more difficult than anything Corbyn's handled. He's had it for two years now. You can say it's of his own making but to be told you're pathetic on a routinely basis in the public eye isn't a stroll in the park.

Offline Danny55

  • Main Stander
  • ***
  • Posts: 214
  • Evertonian
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1366 on: April 23, 2017, 11:25:02 pm »
I don't think they're scared of people clapping louder, or even shouting them down. They just see the mindless zealotry of his supporters and as long as they have enough votes it's pointless standing. I;ve spent years studying conspiracy theorists and committed Corbyn supporters share all of the characteristics of a conspiracy theorist: they know they are right and everyone else is wrong; any evidence that their conviction is unfounded is evidence that there's a wider conspiracy; anyone who can't see the truth must be a shill or a sheep; the Main Stream Media are hiding the truth...

I think you'll be pleasantly surprised come the next leadership election and see that the clear outstanding candidate will come out on top. It won't matter what spectrum they come from within the party.


Offline Alan_X

  • WUM. 'twatito' - The Cat Herding Firm But Fair Voice Of Reason (Except when he's got a plank up his arse). Gimme some skin, priest! Has a general dislike for Elijah Wood. Clearly cannot fill even a thong! RAWK Resident Muppet. Has a crush o
  • RAWK Staff
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 53,269
  • Come on you fucking red men!!!
  • Super Title: This is super!
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1367 on: April 23, 2017, 11:25:38 pm »
It's the life of a politician, mate. Any vitriol they received was only coming at them ten times stronger if they'd won the election.

You say it's more difficult than anything Corbyn's handled. He's had it for two years now. You can say it's of his own making but to be told you're pathetic on a routinely basis in the public eye isn't a stroll in the park.

I doubt he gets to hear that. He's got a whole organisation round him blowing smoke up his arse and telling him he's the new messiah.
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
09/03/2011 08:04
Give a man a mask and he will tell the truth, Give a man a user name and he will act like a total twat.
Its all about winning shiny things.

Offline Danny55

  • Main Stander
  • ***
  • Posts: 214
  • Evertonian
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1368 on: April 23, 2017, 11:27:26 pm »
There will either be a formal split, or the moderates will leave through natural wastage. Either way, Momentumite control of the party means the Labour party is done as an alternative to the Tories. They've got the platform and representative they've always wanted, but the Tories will be effectively unopposed until the new centre-left sets up a new base, at least a decade and probably two from now.

How many of the policies the Labour party are running on this election do you oppose? Owen Smith himself said on issues outside of Brexit he was with the current programme.

Offline Alan_X

  • WUM. 'twatito' - The Cat Herding Firm But Fair Voice Of Reason (Except when he's got a plank up his arse). Gimme some skin, priest! Has a general dislike for Elijah Wood. Clearly cannot fill even a thong! RAWK Resident Muppet. Has a crush o
  • RAWK Staff
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 53,269
  • Come on you fucking red men!!!
  • Super Title: This is super!
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1369 on: April 23, 2017, 11:28:14 pm »
I think you'll be pleasantly surprised come the next leadership election and see that the clear outstanding candidate will come out on top. It won't matter what spectrum they come from within the party.

I assume that's tongue in cheek. Have the £3 pounders all gone now? Did McCluskey lose the election? Are all the passionate Corbynistas on Twitter saying 'fuck me, you were all correct, he is a useless meff...'
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
09/03/2011 08:04
Give a man a mask and he will tell the truth, Give a man a user name and he will act like a total twat.
Its all about winning shiny things.

Offline Sangria

  • In trying to be right ends up wrong without fail
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 19,075
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1370 on: April 23, 2017, 11:28:33 pm »
How many of the policies the Labour party are running on this election do you oppose? Owen Smith himself said on issues outside of Brexit he was with the current programme.

Brexit.
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline Alan_X

  • WUM. 'twatito' - The Cat Herding Firm But Fair Voice Of Reason (Except when he's got a plank up his arse). Gimme some skin, priest! Has a general dislike for Elijah Wood. Clearly cannot fill even a thong! RAWK Resident Muppet. Has a crush o
  • RAWK Staff
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 53,269
  • Come on you fucking red men!!!
  • Super Title: This is super!
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1371 on: April 23, 2017, 11:29:57 pm »
How many of the policies the Labour party are running on this election do you oppose? Owen Smith himself said on issues outside of Brexit he was with the current programme.

Labour haven't written their manifesto yet and Owen Smith said what he thought he had to to try and get elected by the members.
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
09/03/2011 08:04
Give a man a mask and he will tell the truth, Give a man a user name and he will act like a total twat.
Its all about winning shiny things.

Offline Sangria

  • In trying to be right ends up wrong without fail
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 19,075
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1372 on: April 23, 2017, 11:34:15 pm »
Labour haven't written their manifesto yet and Owen Smith said what he thought he had to to try and get elected by the members.

And the reaction of the audiences shows that it's not what is said or how it is said, but who says it that matters. Corbyn is the Labour party, due to the members, and because of the members, he or someone of his ilk will remain the Labour party. There is no best candidate. There is whoever the Corbynite membership want as their representative.
"i just dont think (Lucas is) that type of player that Kenny wants"
Vidocq, 20 January 2011

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=267148.msg8032258#msg8032258

Offline classycarra

  • The Left Disonourable Chuntering Member For Scousepool.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 30,396
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1373 on: April 23, 2017, 11:34:24 pm »
It's the life of a politician, mate. Any vitriol they received was only coming at them ten times stronger if they'd won the election.

You say it's more difficult than anything Corbyn's handled. He's had it for two years now. You can say it's of his own making but to be told you're pathetic on a routinely basis in the public eye isn't a stroll in the park.

Alan's preemptively responded to this far better than I could. Don't think either of them seemed that perturbed by the vitriol, and certainly didn't seem to knock Smith out of his stride. It's more the lack of rationality they faced from supposed Labour Party supporters.

Have you ever challenged someone who holds zealous beliefs, say about religion, and noticed they rationalise and spin absolutely everything, even criticism of abhorrent things, as some kind of virtue. It's one thing hearing stuff like this at your local scientology office, but imagine having to cope with that on a daily basis from apparent allies within a political party. Wouldn't you get fed up of it pretty quickly? I can relate to them, and Alan, in that frustration. Hard to be constructive in those situations.

I don't know about your last point, I think Corbyn revels in it. Obviously he occasionally struggles, and verbally attacks and sometimes literally lunges at some journalists who he doesn't like, but mostly he seems ok with it. He thinks it's virtuous that the 'mainstream' think he's an idiot and/or a nutter. It validates him.

A lot of people have it a lot harder than him, most of the unpleasantness he has to deal with is just hearing his own words quoted back to him, in order to allow him the opportunity to rationalise his nonsense with the benefit of hindsight
« Last Edit: April 23, 2017, 11:38:13 pm by Classycara »

Offline Danny55

  • Main Stander
  • ***
  • Posts: 214
  • Evertonian
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1374 on: April 23, 2017, 11:35:29 pm »
I assume that's tongue in cheek. Have the £3 pounders all gone now? Did McCluskey lose the election? Are all the passionate Corbynistas on Twitter saying 'fuck me, you were all correct, he is a useless meff...'

When the Tories win their landslide people will be desperate to get the party back in a position where it can win elections. A small amount of shortsighted people (save for saying something harsher) might gravitate to a Diane Abbott but nowhere near enough to be successful.

As I've mentioned previously... A leader without baggage, who's pragmatic. Centrist/left wing, it doesn't matter to me.


Offline classycarra

  • The Left Disonourable Chuntering Member For Scousepool.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 30,396
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1375 on: April 23, 2017, 11:40:30 pm »
Owen Smith himself said on issues outside of Brexit he was with the current programme.

Fair to say he (and the Labour party membership via a democratic vote) disagree with Corbyn on his Trident policy. Probably vast swathes of his defence and economic policy, if Corbyn ever volunteers any suggestions on what that is

Offline classycarra

  • The Left Disonourable Chuntering Member For Scousepool.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 30,396
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1376 on: April 23, 2017, 11:41:24 pm »
As I've mentioned previously... A leader without baggage, who's pragmatic. Centrist/left wing, it doesn't matter to me.



So do I take from that that you voted for Owen Smith in the second leadership election?

Offline The Gulleysucker

  • RAWK's very own spinached up Popeye. Transfer Board Veteran 5 Stars.
  • RAWK Remembers
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 11,496
  • An Indolent Sybarite
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1377 on: April 23, 2017, 11:45:10 pm »
.....Probably vast swathes of his defence and economic policy, if Corbyn ever volunteers any suggestions on what that is

The crazy thing is, the Tories are wide open to severe and just criticism of their atrocious and expensively wasteful handling of defence matters over the last 7 years.

They have presided over a quite staggering reduction in our armed forces capability, yet defence spend seems to have remained the same.

Labour should be questioning who's getting the money, as it isn't the front line troops.

The list is depressing.

Harriers prematurely sold off for scrap value to the US Marines who couldn't believe their luck.

Nimrod EW cancelled and airframes ground up(very TSR2'ish) and US aircraft purchased.

The carriers were meant to be designed to enable cats'n'traps to be installed and give us better options for aircraft but mysteriously it then became too expensive to do (BAE) thus committing ourselves to purchasing the questionable F35b at staggering cost, that will need air to air refueling to have any range or carry a useful payload meaning we'll probably also have to purchase Ospreys also from the US to do the task off the carriers.

Must be nice having shares in BAE, Lockheed and Grumman.

I think in years to come, the whole F35 programme will make the Lockheed corruption scandal of the 70's look small time.

Then there's the matter of the half cocked privatisation of the in flight refueling for the RAF that half our aircraft can't use as it's for the US inflight system.

Our Challenger tanks need replacing/upgrading if they are to survive any serious opposition.

We purchased a fleet of heavy lift Airbus transports that the new AFV's don't fit inside when they have their applique active armour fitted.

We still don't seem to have enough trained helicopter pilots so many of our helicopters are cocooned.

The new destroyers make more noise than John Bonham at full pelt whilst driving Coco the clowns car on a cobbled road with flat tyres, and that's when the engines can be made to work.

As far as I'm aware, there are no attack subs currently at sea or certainly there's a much reduced activity.

It's a total shambles, we are completely unprepared for anything serious, yet somehow the Tories are portrayed as being strong on defence matters.

And the biggest problem is, non of Corbyns team have the slightest understanding of any of it as they have total antipathy to defence matters.

It's a wide open goal, but Labour have no-one who can kick the bloody ball into the net.
I don't do polite so fuck yoursalf with your stupid accusations...

Right you fuckwit I will show you why you are talking out of your fat arse...

Mutton Geoff (Obviously a real nice guy)

Offline zero zero

  • Karma's a bitch. Innit.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,475
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1378 on: April 23, 2017, 11:45:35 pm »
Seriously, the best reason for having a representative democracy is that we elect and pay MPs and their staff to get the best information, the best research and come up with policies that are well thought through and based on good foundations.

With all due respect, the crowning achievements of the Labour Party over the years were not developed by asking Twitter for 'likes' they were developed by people with intelligence and political nous.
Little did we know that all the time we've been watching PMQs was giving us a preview of how they were going to write the manifesto!

Jeremy: We have a Mrs Miggins, from Nuneaton... and she would like us to drop a smart bomb on the head of a Mr. Al Baghdadi in Syria... err... let's put that on the backburner for now.

Has this approach ever worked? Taking a collection of ideas from a variety of sources and throwing them together in the hope they coalesce into a coherent whole?

This is what you get when people believe that the ideal leader would be one who's never led anything before and it turns out will abdicate his leadership responsibilities to The Movement.

Offline Alan_X

  • WUM. 'twatito' - The Cat Herding Firm But Fair Voice Of Reason (Except when he's got a plank up his arse). Gimme some skin, priest! Has a general dislike for Elijah Wood. Clearly cannot fill even a thong! RAWK Resident Muppet. Has a crush o
  • RAWK Staff
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 53,269
  • Come on you fucking red men!!!
  • Super Title: This is super!
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1379 on: April 23, 2017, 11:47:55 pm »
When the Tories win their landslide people will be desperate to get the party back in a position where it can win elections. A small amount of shortsighted people (save for saying something harsher) might gravitate to a Diane Abbott but nowhere near enough to be successful.

As I've mentioned previously... A leader without baggage, who's pragmatic. Centrist/left wing, it doesn't matter to me.

I don't think you've grasped what's been happening. Who are these 'people'? The people that re-elected Corbyn after his first disastrous stint and his appalling shambolic performance during the referendum campaign? The people that still support him on Twitter and talk about' chicken coups', who slag off Tom Watson as a traitor to the party, who think the PLP is the enemy...?

Maybe you're right, maybe enough of those people have seen sense. But then anyone with any sense would have seen that Corbyn was always going to be a disaster.
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
09/03/2011 08:04
Give a man a mask and he will tell the truth, Give a man a user name and he will act like a total twat.
Its all about winning shiny things.

Offline Lush is the best medicine...

  • FUCK THE POLICE - NWA
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 40,806
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1380 on: April 23, 2017, 11:48:33 pm »
When the Tories win their landslide people will be desperate to get the party back in a position where it can win elections. A small amount of shortsighted people (save for saying something harsher) might gravitate to a Diane Abbott but nowhere near enough to be successful.

As I've mentioned previously... A leader without baggage, who's pragmatic. Centrist/left wing, it doesn't matter to me.


can a leader from the left be pragmatic though?

Offline Danny55

  • Main Stander
  • ***
  • Posts: 214
  • Evertonian
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1381 on: April 23, 2017, 11:54:02 pm »
So do I take from that that you voted for Owen Smith in the second leadership election?

No, because I thought the idea of a second referendum would've been a complete disaster. As it happens, what's ensued has obviously been just as bad, if not worse. I'll hold my hands up, I was naive from the moment Corbyn was elected a couple of years ago. Lesson learned, I can't say more than that.

Offline classycarra

  • The Left Disonourable Chuntering Member For Scousepool.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 30,396
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1382 on: April 23, 2017, 11:57:44 pm »
I don't think you've grasped what's been happening. Who are these 'people'? The people that re-elected Corbyn after his first disastrous stint and his appalling shambolic performance during the referendum campaign? The people that still support him on Twitter and talk about' chicken coups', who slag off Tom Watson as a traitor to the party, who think the PLP is the enemy...?

Maybe you're right, maybe enough of those people have seen sense. But then anyone with any sense would have seen that Corbyn was always going to be a disaster.

The biggest difference since the second leadership election is that some of the younger and less entrenched among the new members have seen Corbyn for his duplicitousness on brexit - which was the only other single political issue to pique their interest (and capture their imagination) as much as this shiny new (70 something year old) politician and his movement of decades old/tired 'ideas'. That's been the silver bullet that's knocked a few of my mates out of their trance like adherence anyway.

Still worry that after the election, when Corbyn is clinging on after overseeing our obliteration, that the members who remain will still vote for him once someone starts the inevitable new leadership election required to depose the vainglorious Dear Leader

Offline classycarra

  • The Left Disonourable Chuntering Member For Scousepool.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 30,396
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1383 on: April 23, 2017, 11:59:49 pm »
No, because I thought the idea of a second referendum would've been a complete disaster. As it happens, what's ensued has obviously been just as bad, if not worse. I'll hold my hands up, I was naive from the moment Corbyn was elected a couple of years ago. Lesson learned, I can't say more than that.

Fair dos mate. Genuinely appreciate the insight into the decision. Like you, I feel I've learned a few lessons in the last few years

Offline Alan_X

  • WUM. 'twatito' - The Cat Herding Firm But Fair Voice Of Reason (Except when he's got a plank up his arse). Gimme some skin, priest! Has a general dislike for Elijah Wood. Clearly cannot fill even a thong! RAWK Resident Muppet. Has a crush o
  • RAWK Staff
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 53,269
  • Come on you fucking red men!!!
  • Super Title: This is super!
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1384 on: April 24, 2017, 12:00:38 am »
The biggest difference since the second leadership election is that some of the younger and less entrenched among the new members have seen Corbyn for his duplicitousness on brexit - which was the only other single political issue to pique their interest (and capture their imagination) as much as this shiny new (70 something year old) politician and his movement of decades old/tired 'ideas'. That's been the silver bullet that's knocked a few of my mates out of their trance like adherence anyway.

Still worry that after the election, when Corbyn is clinging on after overseeing our obliteration, that the members who remain will still vote for him once someone starts the inevitable new leadership election required to depose the vainglorious Dear Leader

I hope you're right but I'm still worried there's enough mindless zealotry embedded in there.
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
09/03/2011 08:04
Give a man a mask and he will tell the truth, Give a man a user name and he will act like a total twat.
Its all about winning shiny things.

Offline Danny55

  • Main Stander
  • ***
  • Posts: 214
  • Evertonian
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1385 on: April 24, 2017, 12:03:05 am »
I don't think you've grasped what's been happening. Who are these 'people'? The people that re-elected Corbyn after his first disastrous stint and his appalling shambolic performance during the referendum campaign? The people that still support him on Twitter and talk about' chicken coups', who slag off Tom Watson as a traitor to the party, who think the PLP is the enemy...?

Maybe you're right, maybe enough of those people have seen sense. But then anyone with any sense would have seen that Corbyn was always going to be a disaster.

The reason why Corbyn won the first leadership contest was down to the fact the other three candidates offered so little in terms of vision. I myself voted for Burnham but could fully understand why people were looking for something different. Sure, there's people out there who are obsessed with the Labour Party reigniting the memories of Militant but the vast majority just want to win elections and see left wing ideas implemented across the country.

We come to the second vote and all we'd had over the past year was relentless attacks from the PLP. From the word go they were obsessed with undermining Corbyn's leadership. Was that down to the fact him and his team were incompetent? Probably, but did they really need to play it all out in public showing a party that was split at its very heart? Running to the BBC with their leaks at every given opportunity...

In your average Labour Party member's eyes it gives the perfect reason for maintaining your support of Corbyn. "We're only polling badly because you lot won't get behind your leader" was a sentiment echoed throughout. Throw in the fact that Owen Smith was hardly a political giant that could rescue us from our impending demise and it's easy for me to see why we reached the outcome that prevailed.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2017, 12:06:10 am by Danny55 »

Offline classycarra

  • The Left Disonourable Chuntering Member For Scousepool.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 30,396
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1386 on: April 24, 2017, 12:15:45 am »
We come to the second vote and all we'd had over the past year was relentless attacks from the PLP. From the word go they were obsessed with undermining Corbyn's leadership. Was that down to the fact him and his team were incompetent? Probably, but did they really need to play it all out in public showing a party that was split at its very heart? Running to the BBC with their leaks at every given opportunity...

In your average Labour Party member's eyes it gives the perfect reason for maintaining your support of Corbyn. "We're only polling badly because you lot won't get behind your leader" was a sentiment echoed throughout.

The PLP consisted of over two hundred MPs of all different shapes and sizes. They did not as a group conspire against Corbyn from the off. Yes, some were against him from the start. Some in quite unreasonable ways, and some in ways that hindsight shows they were correct.

The only problem was that it played well for Corbyn's office and his cronies. They are very comfortable in the 'noone likes us but we don't care' wing of politics, but they pounced on the opportunity to create a siege mentality 'everyone is conspiring against us' that people lapped up in an undescerning manner.

Throw in the fact that Owen Smith was hardly a political giant that could rescue us from our impending demise and it's easy for me to see why we reached the outcome that prevailed.

In his brief as a Shadow Minister he outdid anything Corbyn did in his entire career before being accidentally elected leader. Even simply holding that position was more than Corbyn ever achieved or had the courage to pursue.

Given Corbyn's performance so far, he probably won't have any successes at the end of his career/life to look back on apart from the two leadership election victories that harmed the party more than almost anything else post-war
« Last Edit: April 24, 2017, 12:17:24 am by Classycara »

Offline Danny55

  • Main Stander
  • ***
  • Posts: 214
  • Evertonian
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1387 on: April 24, 2017, 12:22:42 am »
The PLP consisted of over two hundred MPs of all different shapes and sizes. They did not as a group conspire against Corbyn from the off. Yes, some were against him from the start. Some in quite unreasonable ways, and some in ways that hindsight shows they were correct.

The only problem was that it played well for Corbyn's office and his cronies. They are very comfortable in the 'noone likes us but we don't care' wing of politics, but they pounced on the opportunity to create a siege mentality 'everyone is conspiring against us' that people lapped up in an undescerning manner.

In his brief as a Shadow Minister he outdid anything Corbyn did in his entire career before being accidentally elected leader. Even simply holding that position was more than Corbyn ever achieved or had the courage to pursue.

Given Corbyn's performance so far, he probably won't have any successes at the end of his career/life to look back on apart from the two leadership election victories that harmed the party more than almost anything else post-war

It was what doubtlessly swung it for Corbyn imo. I know it seems to be the consensus that Labour has been infiltrated by rabid left wingers but I'm convinced the majority who voted for Corbyn are people like me who regret the decision.

Don't be confused by the vocal minority on Twitter who are playing out their last few days of relevance. Come the next leadership election it will credible candidates only taking the party forward.

Offline Alan_X

  • WUM. 'twatito' - The Cat Herding Firm But Fair Voice Of Reason (Except when he's got a plank up his arse). Gimme some skin, priest! Has a general dislike for Elijah Wood. Clearly cannot fill even a thong! RAWK Resident Muppet. Has a crush o
  • RAWK Staff
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 53,269
  • Come on you fucking red men!!!
  • Super Title: This is super!
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1388 on: April 24, 2017, 12:23:42 am »
We come to the second vote and all we'd had over the past year was relentless attacks from the PLP. From the word go they were obsessed with undermining Corbyn's leadership. Was that down to the fact him and his team were incompetent? Probably, but did they really need to play it all out in public showing a party that was split at its very heart? Running to the BBC with their leaks at every given opportunity...

In your average Labour Party member's eyes it gives the perfect reason for maintaining your support of Corbyn. "We're only polling badly because you lot won't get behind your leader" was a sentiment echoed throughout. Throw in the fact that Owen Smith was hardly a political giant that could rescue us from our impending demise and it's easy for me to see why we reached the outcome that prevailed.

Didn't the fact that Corbyn was a useless leader cross your minds? That the PLP wanted him out because he betrayed them over Brexit and they'd seen him and his team up close? That The media 'attacks' were just journalists repeating Corbyn's words and statements and behaviour?

If what you're saying is right then the average Labour Party member shouldn't be in the position to have the major say in who the leader is.

You and others seem to have finally come round to the idea that Corbyn is not the right leader of the party. That's taken eighteen months but there are still far too many who still think because 'us lot won;t get behind our leader...' Eighteen months that have seen the party tank in the polls, the UK vote to leave the EU with Corbyn at best equivocal and to cap it all, the Tories calling as snap election because they are worried that their biggest electoral asset (Corbyn) might step down.

Oh and anyone who pointed out the bleeding obvious from the beginning has been called everything under the sun by people who supported the man who has quite possibly, destroyed the Labour Party as an electoral force for the foreseeable future.

Not having a go at you personally Danny - I understand that people have to make their own journeys - it's just been infuriating and soul-destroying to watch.
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
09/03/2011 08:04
Give a man a mask and he will tell the truth, Give a man a user name and he will act like a total twat.
Its all about winning shiny things.

Offline Danny55

  • Main Stander
  • ***
  • Posts: 214
  • Evertonian
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1389 on: April 24, 2017, 12:45:46 am »
Didn't the fact that Corbyn was a useless leader cross your minds? That the PLP wanted him out because he betrayed them over Brexit and they'd seen him and his team up close? That The media 'attacks' were just journalists repeating Corbyn's words and statements and behaviour?

If what you're saying is right then the average Labour Party member shouldn't be in the position to have the major say in who the leader is.

You and others seem to have finally come round to the idea that Corbyn is not the right leader of the party. That's taken eighteen months but there are still far too many who still think because 'us lot won;t get behind our leader...' Eighteen months that have seen the party tank in the polls, the UK vote to leave the EU with Corbyn at best equivocal and to cap it all, the Tories calling as snap election because they are worried that their biggest electoral asset (Corbyn) might step down.

Oh and anyone who pointed out the bleeding obvious from the beginning has been called everything under the sun by people who supported the man who has quite possibly, destroyed the Labour Party as an electoral force for the foreseeable future.

Not having a go at you personally Danny - I understand that people have to make their own journeys - it's just been infuriating and soul-destroying to watch.

No worries, I get the passion- it'd be more concerning if you weren't thoroughly pissed off with the way the last couple of years had panned out.

Throughout Corbyn's first term (can we call it that?) I went with the thought that we're 5 years away from a General Election and there'll be tests along the way to see what direction the party is heading. The results in council elections last May were far from spectacular but they're not the levels of catastrophe we're seeing now. By-elections played out okay as well. Considering the disharmony that was resonating throughout the PLP you could argue Labour actually over performed in this period.

I can understand MPs being irate if they were seeing ridiculous levels of incompetency on a daily basis but their strategy to get rid of him played right into his hands. It seemed the likes of Jess Phillips were more obsessed with downplaying Corbyn than fighting the Tories, not a great look when he'd been elected by a landslide just a few months earlier. In hindsight surely their tactic should've been to let him fall on his own sword.

Talking about taking votes away from members won't help. The reason we got Corbyn in the first place was so little to do with him and more to do with how lacking in ideas other sections in the party were. People needed to have something to believe in. After Brown and Miliband, what was going to be at all different about Burnham/Cooper/Kendall? There was a malaise and in desperate times, people seek desperate measures.

Rather than talking about taking members right to vote away, the more centrist/pragmatic MPs should be thinking about developing their vision for a Labour election win because right now they've failed to do so.
« Last Edit: April 24, 2017, 12:48:43 am by Danny55 »

Offline Jiminy Cricket

  • Batshit fucker and Chief Yuletide Porcine Voyeur
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,952
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1390 on: April 24, 2017, 12:52:18 am »
It's impossible to keep the triple lock.

Effectively it means an above inflation rise for pensions every single year... for ever..

That would mean that the value of pensions would rise and rise and rise compared to wages.

Not that I'm saying you shouldn't increase the value of pensions, but you can't do so in perpetuity.

You also need to look at the disposable income of different sectors of society. For the first time pensioners have come out on top.  Personally I would have two or three tiers of state pension depending on other income..

People get pissed off when I suggest this to them (even people where we agree on just about everything else), but the retirement age has to rise. It is the only thing which will protect pensions in the long run.

Though, other things need to occur too. A shorter working week to increase employment levels (probably of limited effect unless the working week is radically reduced), and/or redistribution of wealth via some other mechanism (I favour experimenting with guaranteed basic income). Basic income would also have great benefits for the disabled, being able to work where they can, but with the knowledge/assurance that they always have basic income to fall back on.

Since the health of an average 65 year old is far better than  it was when state pensions were introduced, and average life expectancy has risen dramatically, a rise to the retirement age is the only thing which makes financial sense. Especially as the UK population has decided that they no longer wish young Johnny Foreigner to live, work and contribute there.

But, no. It will be just more of the head-burying nonsense, across the political spectrum, with no meaningful leadership in this matter. There are no big ideas any more. I despair.
would rather have a wank wearing a barb wire glove
If you're chasing thrills, try a bit of auto-asphyxiation with a poppers-soaked orange in your gob.

Offline Danny55

  • Main Stander
  • ***
  • Posts: 214
  • Evertonian
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1391 on: April 24, 2017, 12:57:05 am »
People get pissed off when I suggest this to them (even people where we agree on just about everything else), but the retirement age has to rise. It is the only thing which will protect pensions in the long run.

Though, other things need to occur too. A shorter working week to increase employment levels (probably of limited effect unless the working week is radically reduced), and/or redistribution of wealth via some other mechanism (I favour experimenting with guaranteed basic income). Basic income would also have great benefits for the disabled, being able to work where they can, but with the knowledge/assurance that they always have basic income to fall back on.

Since the health of an average 65 year old is far better than  it was when state pensions were introduced, and average life expectancy has risen dramatically, a rise to the retirement age is the only thing which makes financial sense. Especially as the UK population has decided that they no longer wish young Johnny Foreigner to live, work and contribute there.

But, no. It will be just more of the head-burying nonsense, across the political spectrum, with no meaningful leadership in this matter. There are no big ideas any more. I despair.

Difficult in a lot of jobs to see how that pans out though. As a teacher could I really see myself coping with a class at the age of 70? Probably not.

Offline Jiminy Cricket

  • Batshit fucker and Chief Yuletide Porcine Voyeur
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,952
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1392 on: April 24, 2017, 03:24:52 am »
Difficult in a lot of jobs to see how that pans out though. As a teacher could I really see myself coping with a class at the age of 70? Probably not.

Well, taking my previous argument(s) to their natural conclusion, if we have basic income, I could as well argue against any state pension and set retirement age.

Automation will continue to increase, and at an accelerating pace - that's going radically impact the number of jobs/hours available in the coming decades. I know that's been predicted in the past, but I think it is different with the advances being made in AI and better automation. When food production (I mean harvesting, really) is more fully automated, I think that will be the real game changer, and the results will be global in their effect.
would rather have a wank wearing a barb wire glove
If you're chasing thrills, try a bit of auto-asphyxiation with a poppers-soaked orange in your gob.

Offline Flaccido Dongingo

  • A Daily Mail plant. Don’t swing at the king!
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,362
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1393 on: April 24, 2017, 06:15:26 am »
No matter who the Labour leader/candidate is, I just don't quite understand how anyone, ANYONE from a working class background could vote Tory.

Offline Jiminy Cricket

  • Batshit fucker and Chief Yuletide Porcine Voyeur
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,952
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1394 on: April 24, 2017, 06:34:47 am »
No matter who the Labour leader/candidate is, I just don't quite understand how anyone, ANYONE from a working class background could vote Tory.

That's not so difficult to understand when it is someone who ends up doing well for themselves (self-interest mostly out- trumps loyalty to one's routes). What I cannot fathom is why someone from a working class background - who has not done very well (by all objective measures) - ends up voting Tory. I envisage them as the type to willingly tug their forelocks and are probably the kind of people who collaborate with an invading enemy. The same kind of people who are 'hunt enthusiasts' (not 'good enough' to join the hunt, but desperate to support - and run along after - those who look down upon them). 21st century Baldricks (but nowhere near as funny). They are the very definition of 'having no self-respect'. Pathetic.  I am less than half-joking. /diatribe.
would rather have a wank wearing a barb wire glove
If you're chasing thrills, try a bit of auto-asphyxiation with a poppers-soaked orange in your gob.

Offline hide5seek

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,300
  • We all live in THE 5 EUROPEAN CUPS
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1395 on: April 24, 2017, 08:01:14 am »
People thinking Corbyn supporters are going to turn their backs on him aren't facing reality. Momentum have a face book page, you don't have to join, you can just pop in and read. There actually mental (or Tories pretending).There already making excuses for the GE loss, it's the MSM fault, It's Blairs fault, it's never anything to do with Corbyn. You only have to look at Trada on here, there proud in their stubbourness. There going to go for deselection's after this GE. Corbyn and his gang are going to destroy Labour totally after this GE and then blame everyone else.

Offline SP

  • Thor ain't got shit on this dude! Alpheus. SPoogle. The Equusfluminis Of RAWK. Straight in at the deep end with a tube of Vagisil. Needs to get a half-life. Needs a damned good de-frag.
  • RAWK Staff.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 36,042
  • .
  • Super Title: Southern Pansy
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1396 on: April 24, 2017, 08:11:06 am »
People thinking Corbyn supporters are going to turn their backs on him aren't facing reality. Momentum have a face book page, you don't have to join, you can just pop in and read. There actually mental (or Tories pretending).There already making excuses for the GE loss, it's the MSM fault, It's Blairs fault, it's never anything to do with Corbyn. You only have to look at Trada on here, there proud in their stubbourness. There going to go for deselection's after this GE. Corbyn and his gang are going to destroy Labour totally after this GE and then blame everyone else.

Momentum's Facebook page will be full of the zealots. It is only a tiny minority of the new membership, and it the place that is likely to show any dissent last. Corbyn could lose majority support of the members without any particular obvious public sign.

Polling of the membership is not great - the polling companies do not have membership data access. Even at the point a challenger thinks Corbyn has lost the party, it will still be a gamble.

Offline redmark

  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 21,395
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1397 on: April 24, 2017, 08:25:58 am »
People thinking Corbyn supporters are going to turn their backs on him aren't facing reality. Momentum have a face book page, you don't have to join, you can just pop in and read. There actually mental (or Tories pretending).There already making excuses for the GE loss, it's the MSM fault, It's Blairs fault, it's never anything to do with Corbyn. You only have to look at Trada on here, there proud in their stubbourness. There going to go for deselection's after this GE. Corbyn and his gang are going to destroy Labour totally after this GE and then blame everyone else.

Yet people make mistakes. Corbyn has never seemed to really want this job (initially, it was just 'his turn' to challenge). He may hang on until a rule change at conference, to allow a challenger with 5% rather than 15% PLP backing and stand down for another lefty to challenge.

But much of Corbyn's support comes on the back of his commitment to various campaign groups (not least Stop the War) over the years. None of his likely successors have quite the same pedigree and would lose some of that support. I don't think McDonnell has huge support even within that constituency. It's a scary prospect, but perhaps Abbott (!) or Thornberry would offer the Momentum-wing's best chance, and could tap into the idea that it must finally be a woman's turn within the party. Both certainly have flaws and (hopefully) are useless enough to put off even the new membership, but you never know.

Stop whining : https://spiritofshankly.com/ : https://thefsa.org.uk/join/ : https://reclaimourgame.com/
The focus now should not be on who the owners are, but limits on what owners can do without formal supporter agreement. At all clubs.

Offline Kashinoda

  • More broken biscuits than made of crisps
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,827
  • ....mmm
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1398 on: April 24, 2017, 09:09:59 am »
No matter who the Labour leader/candidate is, I just don't quite understand how anyone, ANYONE from a working class background could vote Tory.

But the modern Tory party (especially under Cameron) is a lot more appealing to the working class compared to a Thatcher-like government, a few things:

If you look at the personal tax allowance for example, when Labour were in power from 1997 to 2010 (13 years) it jumped from £4,045 to £6,475.
In almost half the time (7 years) under the Tories it's gone from £6,475 to £11,500

The rich pay more tax under the Tories than they did under Labour:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/news/uk-politics-39641222

Then you have things like Universal Credit which can be very beneficial to some when it works (but a mess when it doesn't).

:D

Offline hide5seek

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 10,300
  • We all live in THE 5 EUROPEAN CUPS
Re: General Election on June 8th
« Reply #1399 on: April 24, 2017, 09:10:08 am »
Momentum's Facebook page will be full of the zealots. It is only a tiny minority of the new membership, and it the place that is likely to show any dissent last. Corbyn could lose majority support of the members without any particular obvious public sign.

Polling of the membership is not great - the polling companies do not have membership data access. Even at the point a challenger thinks Corbyn has lost the party, it will still be a gamble.
Yes, but how much of the new membership are Tories? Have the rules changed so no one new can elect the leader?