Author Topic: The art of leadership through Gerrard, Carragher and Lucas.  (Read 13721 times)

Offline hesbighesred

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Re: The art of leadership through Gerrard, Carragher and Lucas.
« Reply #120 on: March 6, 2012, 01:57:57 am »
I like a lot of your posts, but this is absolute drivel.

Gerrard has won more trophies than he should have for us given he's been played in some truly average sides.
In many individual games he's done more than you could reasonably expect of anyone to win games. His capacity to drag a team up by the sheer force of his own ability is absolutely unreal. But to what extent has his leadership style enabled lesser players to get as close to his level as possible? Did he lift them to his level and give them all the tools he could to help them stay their, or did he drag them in his wake, almost despite themselves?
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Re: The art of leadership through Gerrard, Carragher and Lucas.
« Reply #121 on: March 6, 2012, 02:00:36 am »
I like a lot of your posts, but this is absolute drivel.

Gerrard has won more trophies than he should have for us given he's been played in some truly average sides. He's a winner. Simple as that.

It's really hard to take you seriously on any matters concerning Gerrard and Carra (maybe it's just me?) when it's so blatant you have an agenda against the pair of them.

There is a huge difference between being a winner and being someone who can create a winning mentality amongst others.

Gerrard tends to win things on his own, he scores wonder goals like against Olympiakos or West Ham.

That is something a Souness would rarely do but what he would do is inspire those around him and that is something far easier to do on a consistent basis.

Over a League season it is your weakest links that often determine your fate. A Souness, a Gary Mac or a Lucas will try and help raise the level of a Traore whereas Stevie just gets annoyed and goes over and takes the ball of them.

If you read his book Stevie admits that from his teachers to Rafa people have always told him to treat players with less ability than himself with more respect.
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Re: The art of leadership through Gerrard, Carragher and Lucas.
« Reply #122 on: March 6, 2012, 02:05:44 am »
Don't blame him. Often he would look to the left to see Andrea Dossena bombing up the left flank, or to the right where you'd find Philip Degen wandering around like a total and utter tool.

What evidence is there that Lucas helps out other players more than Stevie? Or is that just an assumption?
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Re: The art of leadership through Gerrard, Carragher and Lucas.
« Reply #123 on: March 6, 2012, 02:06:38 am »
In many individual games he's done more than you could reasonably expect of anyone to win games. His capacity to drag a team up by the sheer force of his own ability is absolutely unreal. But to what extent has his leadership style enabled lesser players to get as close to his level as possible? Did he lift them to his level and give them all the tools he could to help them stay their, or did he drag them in his wake, almost despite themselves?

Lol what is he supposed to do, give magical powers to limited players?

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Re: The art of leadership through Gerrard, Carragher and Lucas.
« Reply #124 on: March 6, 2012, 02:12:08 am »
What a terrible thread
Just found it and I really wish I hadn't

Could someone explain to me the point of this kind of discussion?
I have no idea what it's supposed to achieve except to either find scapegoats for our decline in league position or to incite the same vitriol against 2 of our players that certain people on RAWK (and basically only on RAWK in the civilised world) constantly pedal

Gerrard and Carragher are both flawed - on and off the pitch. This shouldn't be a surprise - they are human. More than that they are working class lads who have been elevated / elevated themselves to leadership positions for which they cannot possibly be completely perfect. They have also given years to the club, played at a high level for most of their careers and won us trophies.
And yet despite those pretty obvious points people on here want to find things to twist the knife on. Want to score points on them. Prove just how flawed they are, how wrong they are, how they are to blame for failings at the club.

Criticizing them for the football they play is one thing (and much more valid these days) but writing a long argument as to how they fail as leaders, or ambassadors or anything else is really beyond the pale. They do some good things, they fail in other things - why would you expect anything else ....they're footballers not trained corporate CEOs or military generals.

If you want to know what's gone wrong with LFC over the last 20 years look to the management, the ownership and the constant financial failure and mismanagement of our business. By and large we've been run like a club of 'losers' without 'leadership' which is why we don't have a 'winning' mentality at the club it's not exactly a mystery - every Liverpool fan knows it.

And yet some would pin as much of it as possible on our captain and vice captain. I don't understand it - I'll never understand it and I think it's a shame that some of you want to spend your time looking at their failings, trying desperately to get others to agree to how flawed and damaging they are.
Sorry but I just don't get it
« Last Edit: March 6, 2012, 02:16:14 am by JackWard33 »

Offline hesbighesred

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Re: The art of leadership through Gerrard, Carragher and Lucas.
« Reply #125 on: March 6, 2012, 02:33:15 am »
sorry hbhr stuck with it to this point though I dont agree with a large chunk of it but I aint having this bit at all - its a travesty of a statement - dont waste your money just give it to me or charity.
OK, great post Vulmea, always nice to read one of yours. Maybe that example is going too far, but it does seem to me like lesser players struggle more here than they do there, maybe that's just untrue, maybe it's a product of success, or Ferguson, or the players themselves. If the players do have an influence in that sense, have ours had the best possible influence?
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didn't Flanagan say Carra talked him through the whole game on his debut (yeah I know he's best mates with his dad), hasn't Kelly expressly thanked Carra and plenty of youngsters spoken of how Gerrard has helped them?
OK, both Gerrard and Carragher have a mentoring side. No doubt. No doubt also Lucas can be an utter prick sometimes, on and off the pitch, but I can only go on what I (feel?) I've seen, and as I say it's the consistency that has bothered me more. Someone mentioned 'do as I say, not as I do' leaders, to an extent I think that's the problem with both Gerrard and Carragher. They undoubtedly do their best, but their frame of reference is their own performance/standards/ability. It isn't based on a genuine attempt at discovering the best possible way to win football games, and the best possible way they can help others to do that consistently, with or without them.
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sound like a broken record but the 90 mins we get to see are a  fraction of what actually happens at the club - now maybe training is worse - maybe at Melwood Carragher and Gerrard absolutely cane the youngsters destroy, their confidence and leave them as gibbering wrecks which may explain why no decent kids have come through for 10 years, on the other hand no decent kids might have come through for 10 years.
Not saying they're the cause of it - our youth system has been structurally shite. But it's not just youths I'm talking about, nor am was I trying to claim knowledge of behind the scenes stuff, I'm going by how I feel they've treated others on the pitch, and my memories of who they've praised in the media, and to be fair very probably who other sources have said they've praised.
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what about Reina balling out everybody - constructive or just not leadership material?
With this, and other examples of loud, authoritative leadership that can involve giving other players both barrels, it's not the style I have a problem with so much as the consistency, though for me leadership through encouragement is always better long term than through 'punishment'. Building good habits is a far better way of getting good habits long term than trying to eliminate bad habits.
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Are you really saying United have played in a superior spirit of mutual support for the last 20 years???
In terms of winning football games, yes. In terms of what I've seen of the way their senior players treat the youngsters and new players, and how that compares with their treatment of each other and of other more established players then also yes.
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Carragher is too highly strung on the pitch and rather than calming down he seems to be getting more frustrated, he organises and cajoles but I've often thought when captain its detracted from his game rather than added - he doesn't really need the armband to do what he does, Gerrard has always worn his heart on his sleeve and while he can be inspirational he can also be a very negative influence (we saw both in that classic game against Olympiacos) I'd agree that ideally you want a more consistent and determined leader than either of them. Someone that will be force of will make you believe you are going to win. That your next chance, and there will be one, wont go wide, wont  hit the post, that however well the keeper plays you will eventually beat him, that however young you are you've been selected to wear the red shirt and that makes you a very very very good player. I think both Carra and Gerrard would have been 10% better themselves if we'd had that type of player - to be honest I dont think we've had that type of 'winner' for a very long time.
This conclusion I totally agree with, and is what I was trying to get at, even if it came out too harshly. I also mentioned that I think Gerrard in particular would have been an astonishing captain if he'd had a different early manager (though he could undoubtedly also been a worse won too).

I'm trying to edit as I go along - I'd actually appreciate it if you, Yorky and the other critical-but-actually-engaged-with-the-post folk would tell me if I've improved it or not. I'll look through it again tomorrow and at stuff like the Degen stuff or areas where maybe I have strayed into fantasy land (again this was initially just an off the cuff post, I should have put it in the writer's forum first but never mind)

Funny thing is you seem to be pretty close to where I am in terms of my worries about the captaincy/vice-captaincy slots.
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I am not sure Lucas fits the bill to be honest and I know you doubt the lad at your peril, I think what he has achieved has been fantastic but I'm not sure that makes him a captain - he breathes quiet determination, reliability, calmness, but I'm not sure that means leadership.

in the band of brothers analogy (which I'd agree is probably the best tv series around bar none) Winters is a combat leader - cool, calm and decisive, he controls and dictates events, he's proactive , he makes things happen Lucas will need to start dictating games rather than providing a platform for others to do so if he wants to step into that type of leadership role. Spears on the other hand just shoots people ( or does he? insider joke) I quite like that approach.
OK, so if not Lucas, who else? Though I'd rate the three qualities you rate him with pretty damn highly in terms of leadership, and I'd also credit him with being 'cool, calm and decisive'. I think Agger, Reina and Skrtel are all good shouts too, albeit again all of them have different styles.
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Offline hesbighesred

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Re: The art of leadership through Gerrard, Carragher and Lucas.
« Reply #126 on: March 6, 2012, 03:13:58 am »
***right, OP editeded again. I've tried to tone down the language a lot, to take out some poor or really divisive examples. Huge thanks to those who've responded with constructive criticism, like Jack, John_C, Vulmea, Yorky, Harinder and a number of others.***
Could someone explain to me the point of this kind of discussion?
It could be a discussion on leadership, and what leadership should be in footballing terms? Like it or lump it, but Gerrard and Carragher aren't 'just footballers'. No captain is, no senior professional is, and certainly no living, breathing, playing club legend is. Even if they weren't captain and vice-captain, and even if they didn't want to be, even if they begged not to be, both are and will remain leaders of this club while they remain here. Are they really the best we have? If they aren't, what kind of person/skills/style of play are we looking for? If they are, why are they so ideal? What makes them better than their rivals, both at the club and at other clubs?
« Last Edit: March 6, 2012, 03:17:26 am by hesbighesred »
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Re: The art of leadership through Gerrard, Carragher and Lucas.
« Reply #127 on: March 6, 2012, 03:32:35 am »
Surely editing your initial choice of title as well as some of the actual piece totally undermines the point as a whole?

Stick to it mate.
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Offline hesbighesred

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Re: The art of leadership through Gerrard, Carragher and Lucas.
« Reply #128 on: March 6, 2012, 04:04:26 am »
Surely editing your initial choice of title as well as some of the actual piece totally undermines the point as a whole?

Stick to it mate.
OK, help me out for when I wake up again then:

Better title? I changed it so that it was a better reflection of the content. Should make it general again, and try take out all references to specific players, or do I need more players? It started as a response to a post on a different thread, so it all clearly came from my personal views on those players. Wouldn't it lose something if I tried to take all that out? Maybe I could incorporate posts from the thread directly? I don't know. Help me out, if I honestly think it'll make it better, I'll try and include it.
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Offline tea_tree

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Re: The art of leadership through Gerrard, Carragher and Lucas.
« Reply #129 on: March 6, 2012, 08:19:46 am »
To be fair I think there was nothing wrong with the initial un-edited OP. The fact of the matter though is that when you taken on not just one but two sacred cows, then you will ruffle a fair few feathers. The premise of the post and the evidence provided seemed pretty reasonable to me however as always whenever it comes to discussing the 2 stalwarts currently at the club, nothing but empirical academically verified and peer-reviewed data will suffice. Or in the absence of that, signed affidavits and video evidence to back up every single claim you make.

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Re: The art of leadership through Gerrard, Carragher and Lucas.
« Reply #130 on: March 6, 2012, 08:34:12 am »
Houllier making Gerrard captain was the difference between us talking about him in the terms of Stevie G and a Danny Murphy. I’ve said it many times on here that when he’s on the field we as a team always have a chance.

I can think of no other player who has worn our jersey over the past 9 years who epitomises Liverpool’s drive to win than Stevie G. Carra is who I think of when we don’t want to lose, Stevie when we need to win.

 
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Re: The art of leadership through Gerrard, Carragher and Lucas.
« Reply #131 on: March 6, 2012, 09:51:52 am »
Don't blame him. Often he would look to the left to see Andrea Dossena bombing up the left flank, or to the right where you'd find Philip Degen wandering around like a total and utter tool.

What evidence is there that Lucas helps out other players more than Stevie? Or is that just an assumption?
Evidence is hard to come by, but over the past year I can count Robinson, Flannagan, Spearing and Shelvey praising Lucas for his help, one of those was even in direct competition with him...
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Offline subroc

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Re: The art of leadership through Gerrard, Carragher and Lucas.
« Reply #132 on: March 6, 2012, 10:14:02 am »
Gerrard has certainly led from the front with the number of times he has pulled the entire team through by the force of his performance alone.  Other players clearly respect, admore and even hold or held him in awe at his ability - and quite rightly so. However, there is evidently something lacking in his personal charisma or ability to cause the team to look to him which particularly comes out when he is in England colours. Perhaps he is less forceful than a Terry or a Ferdinand? Why else (apart from the perennial anti-Liverpool bias) would a Johnny come lately like Parker possibly be given the captainship over Gerrard who is not only England's most experienced player but also the best English player of the last decade? As well, I cannot recall how many times I expected him to speak up on behalf of a teammate (for instance in the Suarez affair) or the team or the manager but he stayed silent. Instead, it would be a foreign lad like Reina or Kuyt who would speak up.

Has Carragher really been a leader according to the best traditions of that word? I am not convinced. He does a lot of screaming at others when mistakes (sometimes by him) are made. He speaks up now and then. He evidently holds a lot of influence in the corridors of power in the club. He has gone a long way since the days when he was ejected from Paul Ince's private party for being disorderly... but I cannot forget the silence he kept when Benitez - the manager who put him in the CB role where he bcame accepted as being good - was hounded out of the club, and the lack of support he gave to Benitez even after wards and even now, unlike Gerrard who at least said that he wanted to say something but was asked by Benitez not to. I cannot forget the sweetheart deal that Purslow gave him on the last day when the latter had the power to do so. Was that, and the rumours that surround it, a coincidence? I do not know but they are troubling.

Lucas has clearly been through at least 2/3rds of the arc in a movie storyline or plot where the hero would go through many travails but emerge at the end having gained the respect of all and having continued to behave impeccably in the face of adversity and opprobrium, thus confirming his true nobility of spirit. The injury put a temporary halt to the plotline progressing to the triumph that will stamp his place as a leader but that can and probably will still come in time.

 

Offline rossipersempre

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Re: The art of leadership through Gerrard, Carragher and Lucas.
« Reply #133 on: March 6, 2012, 10:27:22 am »
I'm not exactly a fan of the Huyton & Bootle Collective, but I struggled to read through this bloated meandering OP. It doesn't help either that it seems you're constantly editing on the fly. Better to leave it untouched and revise in subsequent posts.

But the main problem I have with it is that it doesn't serve any purpose as such, essentially it's just a character-based thread looking at future captaincy/vice candidates clearly proposing Lucas. And in that respect, it could have been served much better with a much clearer to-the-point narrative.

Oh, and it's Captain Agger for me. See, it really can be that simple.
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Re: The art of leadership through Gerrard, Carragher and Lucas.
« Reply #134 on: March 6, 2012, 10:38:26 am »
I think this post raises some interesting issues although I do think it is a little unfair on Gerrard and Carragher, and perhaps overestimating Lucas. 

I do think that for too long the balance of power has rested with the players.  I don't think that is a healthy situation.  If there is one thing the club and most importantly Dalglish need to do is wrestle that power back in the next few years.

If you look at title winning sides, ourselves included, there has been a tight control over the influence that players have, a group that are so integral to your overall success.

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Re: The art of leadership through Gerrard, Carragher and Lucas.
« Reply #135 on: March 6, 2012, 11:05:23 am »
Evidence is hard to come by, but over the past year I can count Robinson, Flannagan, Spearing and Shelvey praising Lucas for his help, one of those was even in direct competition with him...
There was an article on Kuyt roughly a year ago where he basically couldn't praise Gerrard enough for his effort with players off the pitch and his concern that they settled in. I can't seem to find the article but it was interesting hearing someone's perspective who is qualified to have a view on such things, for a change.

Offline montysmum

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Re: The art of leadership through Gerrard, Carragher and Lucas.
« Reply #136 on: March 6, 2012, 11:10:14 am »


In many individual games he's done more than you could reasonably expect of anyone to win games. His capacity to drag a team up by the sheer force of his own ability is absolutely unreal. But to what extent has his leadership style enabled lesser players to get as close to his level as possible? Did he lift them to his level and give them all the tools he could to help them stay their, or did he drag them in his wake, almost despite themselves?

That is surely impossible to assess.  On the one hand you say he has an unreal ability to drag a team up but then question his ability to 'enable' lesser players.

Given that in the teams he has played in there have been numerous 'lesser' players wouldnt the fact the he has dragged them to success indicate that he has inspired them to achieve more than they should?

Gerrard isn't a bloody cartoon character is he, he doesn't have magical fairy dust that he can sprinkle over players to get them to maintain a certain level.

On the one hand you say he gets them to play well, surely after that it is up to the player himself to figure out if he wants to stay there or has the ability to do so.

You criticise both players for yelling at players on the pitch, but then say of Reina when he does it ' loud, authoritative leadership that can involve giving other players both barrels is perfectly fine.

Your OP was based purely on your feelings towards the three players mentioned and since posting it you have apparently backtracked, changed or amended your thoughts because others have disagreed with you.  It hardly makes a reasoned debate possible does it?

If you wanted to have a discussion on whether Lucas would make a good Captain after Gerrard retires it could have been done without the personal comments you made regarding court cases, possible racial bias etc.

The following post says it pretty much spot on -

I'm not exactly a fan of the Huyton & Bootle Collective, but I struggled to read through this bloated meandering OP. It doesn't help either that it seems you're constantly editing on the fly. Better to leave it untouched and revise in subsequent posts.

But the main problem I have with it is that it doesn't serve any purpose as such, essentially it's just a character-based thread looking at future captaincy/vice candidates clearly proposing Lucas. And in that respect, it could have been served much better with a much clearer to-the-point narrative.

Oh, and it's Captain Agger for me. See, it really can be that simple.
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Offline hesbighesred

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Re: The art of leadership through Gerrard, Carragher and Lucas.
« Reply #137 on: March 6, 2012, 01:58:19 pm »
I'm not exactly a fan of the Huyton & Bootle Collective, but I struggled to read through this bloated meandering OP. It doesn't help either that it seems you're constantly editing on the fly. Better to leave it untouched and revise in subsequent posts.
What's the difference between 'editing on the fly' and 'revising in subsequent posts'? You mean I should have left the OP alone and then added more thoughts in subsequent posts? Well, to be fair I did that, but it's also fair to say a lot of people inevitably ignore the 'susequent posts' and simply go by the OP. So I've tried to make it better than it was. Any help or advice on that front would be gratefully received - an offer I've put out a number of times now. If I can make the OP better, then I want to try - should I try and totally take out all reference to individuals?

Though honestly, what's really so wrong with using a 'character based' approach to discussing our on-pitch leadership, and what that should be? It's a little less dry than a de-personalised version, isn't it?

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But the main problem I have with it is that it doesn't serve any purpose as such, essentially it's just a character-based thread looking at future captaincy/vice candidates clearly proposing Lucas. And in that respect, it could have been served much better with a much clearer to-the-point narrative.

Oh, and it's Captain Agger for me. See, it really can be that simple.
As for the purpose, if you follow your suggestion (or what I think it was) and look at subsequent posts then there are a lot of areas the debate could go and has gone that's much more interesting than just proposing a player for captain and leave it there. At least delve a bit more into why Agger's such a good leader for you. What's his leadership style? How does it differ from what we have? Why would that be an improvement?
There was an article on Kuyt roughly a year ago where he basically couldn't praise Gerrard enough for his effort with players off the pitch and his concern that they settled in. I can't seem to find the article but it was interesting hearing someone's perspective who is qualified to have a view on such things, for a change.
If you can find it it would be great to post a link to it, thanks.

That is surely impossible to assess.  On the one hand you say he has an unreal ability to drag a team up but then question his ability to 'enable' lesser players.

Given that in the teams he has played in there have been numerous 'lesser' players wouldnt the fact the he has dragged them to success indicate that he has inspired them to achieve more than they should?
It wasn't that complicated. In a match, when Gerrard's on form, he is, or usually can be, a massively positive influence, dragging a whole team up to a higher level. Fine. What about when he isn't there? Or when he's off form? Does his forceful type of leadership help the other players then? I don't think so.

Compare that to, say, the environment achieved at Ajax in the 70's under Cruyff and Michels, where you get the feeling it was hugely mututally supportive on and off the pitch - players as well as the manager working to encourage and improve each other.
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Gerrard isn't a bloody cartoon character is he, he doesn't have magical fairy dust that he can sprinkle over players to get them to maintain a certain level.

On the one hand you say he gets them to play well, surely after that it is up to the player himself to figure out if he wants to stay there or has the ability to do so.
If someone shouts at me then I might work harder, and thus get more done, for a bit. When the boss goes again I revert back to what I was doing. If he shows me ways I can work quicker, or if he gives me praise when he spots me doing something the right way, then I keep on doing things better even when he isn't around.

In a footballing sense if a captain understand's what the manager is trying to achieve and why he's trying to achieve it then he can transmit that to the other players, and thus help them improve whether he's there or not. If a captain leads only or mainly through his own personal performance/charisma then he can lift with his presence, but doesn't ultimately give the other players foundations to help build them into better players. Of course, that's mainly the managers job, but I do think the players have a big part to play too.
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You criticise both players for yelling at players on the pitch, but then say of Reina when he does it ' loud, authoritative leadership that can involve giving other players both barrels is perfectly fine.
I criticise both players for being INCONSISTENT. For example for shouting at others for their own mistakes. I've seen Reina get angry at himself as well as other, I've never seen him shout at the defence when it's clearly his mistake.
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Your OP was based purely on your feelings towards the three players mentioned and since posting it you have apparently backtracked, changed or amended your thoughts because others have disagreed with you.  It hardly makes a reasoned debate possible does it?
No, I've changed and amended my thoughts to try and make it more about leadership, while still being honest about where the thread started.
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If you wanted to have a discussion on whether Lucas would make a good Captain after Gerrard retires it could have been done without the personal comments you made regarding court cases, possible racial bias etc.
I never made comments regarding possible racial bias FFS. Anyway, if you actually read the OP again, those are exactly the kind of things I've been trying to take out of the OP, precisely because they don't really add to the argument and are only like to lead to defensive/aggressive comments from people.

Besides, I didn't want to just have a discussion on 'Lucas 4 captain'. I've written that post and stuck it in the Lucas thread a few times. It only takes a line to say I want him as captain, easy, done.

Successful or not, I'm trying to take that player comparison and turn it into a wider discussion, and it would be great if you could help me take it in that direction too.

P.S. Seeing as some of the key criticisms you make are actually stuff I've tried to improve in the OP if you could be bothered to read it again I'd really appreciate the feedback, though of course it was a long OP so I understand if you don't! ;)
« Last Edit: March 6, 2012, 02:00:50 pm by hesbighesred »
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Offline NigelManx

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Re: The art of leadership through Gerrard, Carragher and Lucas.
« Reply #138 on: March 6, 2012, 02:10:41 pm »
Im my experience great leaders are often born as such be it in sport or life. These people have a aura about them that earns respect and makes them a great leader. In football as often or not the best player ability wise is deemed the captain. That is a flawed process as so many other qualities are needed in a good captain or leader. In the marketplace  or the military im sure this is not the case . Im sure we have all been in situations in life where we have looked for a leader and its not always who we would think who comes to the for.
Im my opinion if you have a great leader/captain you have so much more than 'the best player'.

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Re: The art of leadership through Gerrard, Carragher and Lucas.
« Reply #139 on: March 6, 2012, 02:14:24 pm »
Im my experience great leaders are often born as such be it in sport or life. These people have a aura about them that earns respect and makes them a great leader. In football as often or not the best player ability wise is deemed the captain. That is a flawed process as so many other qualities are needed in a good captain or leader. In the marketplace  or the military im sure this is not the case . Im sure we have all been in situations in life where we have looked for a leader and its not always who we would think who comes to the for.
Im my opinion if you have a great leader/captain you have so much more than 'the best player'.
Yeah I agree with this. Sometimes the most ability = the best leader but not usually not by any means. But is it true that in football the captaincy tends to go to the best player? It often does, but it also often goes to a Ferdinand or a Puyol, for example. But I do agree that great leadership ends up with a team greater than the sum of it's parts, which is not something we've had all that often in the last 20 years or so - a team that performs better than it's parts would suggest, that is.

P.S. Welcome to RAWK Nigel!
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Offline NigelManx

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Re: The art of leadership through Gerrard, Carragher and Lucas.
« Reply #140 on: March 6, 2012, 02:16:52 pm »
also reading HBHR post above in relation to the shouting at players discussion there is a place for cajoling a player but definately the player who shouts the most or loudest does not!! make the best captain. Whats right and wrong is always going to be a subject of debate but in my view great captains/leaders are mainly born not created and demand and receive respect because of lots of elements that they are blessed with.

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Re: The art of leadership through Gerrard, Carragher and Lucas.
« Reply #141 on: March 6, 2012, 02:17:03 pm »
What's the difference between 'editing on the fly' and 'revising in subsequent posts'?

If I may answer that HB. When the OP is constantly revised it can make a mockery of the posts that follow it. To a new reader their objections to the original post can seem illogical or unreasonable or just plain confusing. You have a responsibility to your own argument, for sure, but I think if you start a thread you have a certain responsibility to the arguments of those who follow you too. I don't mean the purely abusive ones, obviously.
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Re: The art of leadership through Gerrard, Carragher and Lucas.
« Reply #142 on: March 6, 2012, 02:19:17 pm »
HBHR   thank you I've tried along time to get in but register was always declined so I look forward to joining in where I can :wave

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Re: The art of leadership through Gerrard, Carragher and Lucas.
« Reply #143 on: March 6, 2012, 02:39:26 pm »
If I may answer that HB. When the OP is constantly revised it can make a mockery of the posts that follow it. To a new reader their objections to the original post can seem illogical or unreasonable or just plain confusing. You have a responsibility to your own argument, for sure, but I think if you start a thread you have a certain responsibility to the arguments of those who follow you too. I don't mean the purely abusive ones, obviously.
Ok, I take your point. Should I acknowledge that at the bottom of the OP then? Probably best I guess, I don't have the original to go back to!
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