Topic: Director of Football

[filopastry]

Comolli could have got hundreds of transfers right but he was a waste of space after his comments about analysing Xabi Alonso on his running ability and distance covered and being amazed at him being good based on those stats.

I'm not particularly defending him, but his record on signings doesn't look any worse than what we have had since he left

[killer-heels]

I'm not particularly defending him, but his record on signings doesn't look any worse than what we have had since he left

Oh no doubt but that illustrates how bad its been. Both structures in terms of a commitee, DOF or whatever seems plausible and are used i would imagine at most clubs. The problem is that between them and the managers they have all made bad decisions in regard to play transfers.

[Draex]

It's hard to blame the TC when they are obviously operating with 1 hand behind their back - we constantly low ball and take ages over negotiations. Until that changes we will always be getting the cast offs.

[GBF]

I think give him a really good striker and he'll know again. That's my feeling.

every manager dreams of a "really good striker" but unfortunately there is not a lot of them and there is a lot who have better chance in getting them when we do not have better things to offer those strikers.  Goals and clean sheets from the whole team and not from strikers and defenders only

[kcbworth]

This is a little speculative, but let's see what you reckon - breakdown of transfers under the current owners (my very subjective rating = value for money + impact to the team at time signed and since + ability):

Most probably DOF/TC Signings

• Stand on their own!
  
  • Luis Suarez   - £22,800,000 (11/10)
  • Philippe Coutinho - £8,500,000 (9.5/10)
  • Daniel Sturridge - £12,000,000 (9.5/10)
  • Jordon Ibe - £500,000 (8.5/10)
  • Emre Can - £9,750,000 (8/10)
  • Mamadou Sakho - £15,000,000 (8/10)
• Can be debated as successes
  
  • Kolo Touré - Free (7.5/10)
  • João Carlos Teixeira - £830,000 (7.5/10)
  • Raul Meireles - £11,500,000 (7.5/10)
  • Alberto Moreno - £12,000,000 (7/10)
  • Jose Enrique - £6,000,000 (7/10)
  • Stewart Downing   - £18,500,000 (6.5/10)
• Poor buys
  
  • Lazar Markovic - £19,800,000 (6/10)
  • Tiago Ilori - £7,000,000 (5/10)
  • Oussama Assaidi - £3,000,000 (4/10)
  • Sebastian Coates - £4,900,000 (4/10)
  • Mario Balotelli    - £16,000,000 (3.5/10)
  • Iago Aspas - £7,000,000   (3/10)
  • Luis Alberto - £6,800,000 (3/10)

Most probably Gaffer (Kenny/Hodgson/Rodgers Signings)

• Stand on their own!
  
  • Jordan Henderson - £16,000,000 (8.5/10)
• Can be debated as successes
  
  • Craig Bellamy - Free (7.5/10)
  • Adam Lallana - £25,000,000 (7.5/10)
  • Simon Mignolet - £9,000,000 (7.5/10)
  • Joe Allen - £15,000,000 (7.5/10)
• Poor buys
• Charlie Adam - £6,750,000 (5/10)
• Rickie Lambert - £4,500,000   (4.5/10)
• Fabio Borini - £10,400,000 (4/10)
• Brad Jones - £2,300,000 (4/10)
• Christian Poulsen - £4,550,000 (3/10)
• Danny Wilson - £2,000,000 (2/10)
• Joe Cole - Free (2/10)
• Paul Konchesky - £3,500,000 (1.5/10)
• Andy Carroll - £35,000,000 (1/10)
• Dejan Lovren - £20,000,000 (1/10)

For me... if I'm the current owners, there isn't much reason there for me to consider giving more control to the manager?

Edit: struck out buys came in just before the new owners bought the club

[Redman0151]

Craig Bellamy a poor buy?

He was one of our most important players in winning our only trophy since 2006. Would kill for somebody with his desire and passion right now

[Flaccido Dongingo]

No way would I judge Bellamy as 2/10.

[Redman0151]

Funny I was going to qualify that rating as "second time around". I prob shouldn't have given him a rating at all. This was when he was brought back in but didn't have the chance to make an impact under Kenny

His impact was being one of the most important players in winning a trophy. If you're going to claim Joe Allen and Adam Lallana as potential successes then Bellamy should be 10/10

[CraigDS]

Poulson, Wilson, Cole and Konchesky were signed in the summer before FSG came in.

[CraigDS]

Ok ta... will annotate that.

So was Meireles.

[Redman0151]

To reiterate, this is signings under FSG.

Yes, we bought him on a free in 2011, then he went on to be one of our key players in winning the Carling Cup, I don't see how that can be classed as a failure

[kcbworth]

Yes, we bought him on a free in 2011, then he went on to be one of our key players in winning the Carling Cup, I don't see how that can be classed as a failure

Really? My mistake! Thanks. Will clean up my previous replies from thread

I have to be honest I don't recall him playing much at all under Kenny before he left for Cardiff on compassionate grounds, but my mistake.

[CraigDS]

Also, why is Ilori considered a bad buy, but Origi not even on the list? Both are pretty much in a similar position, a youth player bought and loaned out for experience.

Surely would make sense for youth players like that that the jury is out?

[kcbworth]

Also, why is Ilori considered a bad buy, but Origi not even on the list? Both are pretty much in a similar position, a youth player bought and loaned out for experience.

Surely would make sense for youth players like that that the jury is out?

Ilori cost £7m, 3 seasons ago and unfortunately still hasn't had the opportunity to make an impact. He may go onto to be a good buy, but I couldn't rate him higher than 4/10 right now after such a long time offering no return on such a hefty investment. He may turn out to be a great buy in time, but I feel enough time has passed to warrant that rating. Origi I didn't bother rating because he wasn't bought for an immediate impact and hasn't spent a day with the team. I genuinely felt that was an unrateable buy.

But point taken, some of those TC future investments could turn out pretty well. Only more damning for the Gaffer buys sadly.

[Fromola]

I'm not particularly defending him, but his record on signings doesn't look any worse than what we have had since he left

Comolli is a fraud but he's still better than this regime that have pissed away the bulk of 225 million.

[CraigDS]

Ilori cost £7m, 3 seasons ago and unfortunately still hasn't had the opportunity to make an impact. He may go onto to be a good buy, but I couldn't rate him higher than 4/10 right now after such a long time offering no return on such a hefty investment. He may turn out to be a great buy in time, but I feel enough time has passed to warrant that rating. Origi I didn't bother rating because he wasn't bought for an immediate impact and hasn't spent a day with the team. I genuinely felt that was an unrateable buy.

But point taken, some of those TC future investments could turn out pretty well. Only more damning for the Gaffer buys sadly.

He only signed about 18 months ago ago (Sept 13), spent 6 months getting experience at the club then the rest on loan as was the plan according to a couple of interviews.

Plus the fee was more in the £5.5m range (was €7.5m) and no doubt that is a max fee after various clauses are met.

Not saying he is a good buy, but think it's a bit harsh to label him a poor buy when he is clearly a youth prospect.

[kcbworth]

He only signed about 18 months ago ago (Sept 13), spent 6 months getting experience at the club then the rest on loan as was the plan according to a couple of interviews.

Plus the fee was more in the £5.5m range (was €7.5m) and no doubt that is a max fee after various clauses are met.

Not saying he is a good buy, but think it's a bit harsh to label him a poor buy when he is clearly a youth prospect.

Ok you've convinced me - you're making an argument I have before actually

I'll bump him to a 5 Hasn't yet done enough to get into the category above though

[lgvkarlos]

Would love Dirk in his prime again, one of our best Team signings ever.
DOF,  anything would be better than what we have now.

[CraigDS]

Ok you've convinced me - you're making an argument I have before actually

I'll bump him to a 5 Hasn't yet done enough to get into the category above though

Nah, he is certainly far from a success, or even enough to argue he has been, just don't think he is yet a poor buy either - is in a separate group which I'd actually put a few other more recent purchases in.

[killer-heels]

I think several of this seasons signings also need to be put in the 'jury is still out' category, including the likes of Illori.

Can is the only one this season that you can label as a succcess. Moreno, Markovic, Lallana all go in the middle category. Balotelli, Lovren have been terrible.

Not sure which category Lambert goes in.

[JJ Red]

I doubt there is one aspect of the TC that works efficiently. For me it is probably divided into 3 elements;

1. Scouting and analyzing targets - includes drawing up a shortlist
2. Decisions on said shortlist and prioritizing targets based on all aspects (availablity, suitability, cost etc.)
3. Financial negotiations with other teams and players/agents.

Which is why, for me, there is no way that any portion of that model can escape the pointing finger of John Henry.

[Gnurglan]

I'd imagine most clubs have some sort of transfer committee, where the CEO/Chairman, head of scouting, sporting director, Manager and Assistant Manager etc meet frequently to discuss transfer policy and targets, with the Manager having the final say.

Genuine question, What is the difference at Liverpool and why is it such a big deal?

I believe you're right. Most clubs have it.
The big deal is our people seem to be having different agendas. I'm basing this on what I see, which is a rather lazy transfer policy. Posted in a thread earlier today that when Chelsea trim their squad and offload Mata and Schurrle, we have room for everyone. Chelsea have been using few players and they've offloaded big players. We just keep everyone, even those we have no intention of using. It's been the case for years and it's poor work. The only reason for us to have it this way is, we're not clear with what we want. Or we're too lazy to get things done.

[CraigDS]

I believe you're right. Most clubs have it.
The big deal is our people seem to be having different agendas. I'm basing this on what I see, which is a rather lazy transfer policy. Posted in a thread earlier today that when Chelsea trim their squad and offload Mata and Schurrle, we have room for everyone. Chelsea have been using few players and they've offloaded big players. We just keep everyone, even those we have no intention of using. It's been the case for years and it's poor work. The only reason for us to have it this way is, we're not clear with what we want. Or we're too lazy to get things done.

There are shit loads of examples of us making a call and getting rid of players.

The problem is a lot of the players we are getting rid of are due to them being failures, so are likely to only be wanted by 'lower' clubs which will pay smaller wages - so getting rid of them is a lot harder.

[PhaseOfPlay]

I doubt there is one aspect of the TC that works efficiently. For me it is probably divided into 3 elements;

1. Scouting and analyzing targets - includes drawing up a shortlist
2. Decisions on said shortlist and prioritizing targets based on all aspects (availablity, suitability, cost etc.)
3. Financial negotiations with other teams and players/agents.

Which is why, for me, there is no way that any portion of that model can escape the pointing finger of John Henry.

[clinical]

Players like griezmann should of been signed last summer. Instead we went for an over priced lallana. Have we not proved now how premier league experience is a load of shite. Means nothing. Lovren, balotelli, Lambert and lallana to a degree have been failures. Many called it in the summer too. Markovic was never worth £20m either

[Gnurglan]

He only signed about 18 months ago ago (Sept 13), spent 6 months getting experience at the club then the rest on loan as was the plan according to a couple of interviews.

Plus the fee was more in the £5.5m range (was €7.5m) and no doubt that is a max fee after various clauses are met.

Not saying he is a good buy, but think it's a bit harsh to label him a poor buy when he is clearly a youth prospect.

He's a poor buy in the sense that we are reluctant to use him. I really have no clue of his qualities, but I'd like us to treat him in a different way. What I suggest is we make room for him as one of four CBs. He's expected to fill a role. If we plan to loan him out, let's use shorter loans. Like we did with Ibe and before him Shelvey. The effect from that would be that we'd need one CB less. So we could offload a senior player. We'd have Skrtel, Sakho and one more, plus Ilori. We're buying senior players to keep the likes of Ilori out.

Would a DoF help with this? I don't know. Maybe, maybe not. I'm not against a committee, nor a DoF. We need to make sure we align our thoughts and plans in some way. The benefit I see with a DoF is continuity. But the one I've pictured for myself in that role is Kenny. Meaning he's more of an Ambassador. He's there to oversee the style of play, as support for the manager, perhaps for the owners and even as a wise man for coaches at lower levels. We're talking transfer of knowledge here, more so than a man with a lot of executive power. And five, ten years from now, he'd still be there.

[PhaseOfPlay]

Here is a basic diagram of a basic traditional model:



Here is a basic DoF model:



Here is what we seem to have:



We have too many people with an equal say when it comes to spotting, proposing and acquiring players. We also have too much duplication of roles. In a world where you can stream a Turkmenistan 3rd division match in HD on your mobile phone, there is no need to have both a head of performance and a performance analyst, and any assistants they might have. And a head of opposition analysis. There are too many voices for what is essentially a Two-man job: Manager and Chief Scout

For me, despite not really being in favour of a DoF originally when Rodgers came in, the current mess would be much better served by having one single person liaise with the manager who filters all the information through him. Then, between the two of them and the Chairman/whoever signs the cheques, they will get a decision on players either way (either all agree, or 2:1 agree). That way, everything is more streamlined towards the football. It seems to me that our current set up is in severe danger of becoming a fight for territory - or "Little Kingdoms", as Michels called it.

[Miltonred]

I think DoF works great when you buy the very best players in the world. Its a no brainer. Director of Football buys Ronaldo, Bale, James, Modric, Benzema ... I could go on. Then the teams swaps and changes the manager, whose style of play might alter a little, but it matters not because the best players just go out and beat other teams.

But wait, even at Madrid, where the coach is changed every two years, and the President buys players like billionaires buy new Bentley's, just 'coz, the team can underperform, fail and have to reset.

I am a traditionalist. The manager knows how he wants to play the game, and provided he has a chief scout who he cna clearly communicate this too, between the two of them targets are found and then the clubs secretary, chairmen or whatever the fuck that motor bike riding dick wants to call himself, gets the job done.

The only real argument should come in when the managers desire for a player outstrips the clubs willingness to make the fee/wages. The    likes of Ian Ayre should simply be helping Brendan get the players he wants, within the clubs financial constraints. He should never be picking targets.

A director of football? That means we will have two people thinking about the type of player that suits us, and the DoF will be thinking about whether a player will fit in if the current manager gets fired - a variable that is not going to be all that helpful.

[lionel_messias]

I think DoF works great when you buy the very best players in the world. Its a no brainer. Director of Football buys Ronaldo, Bale, James, Modric, Benzema ... I could go on. Then the teams swaps and changes the manager, whose style of play might alter a little, but it matters not because the best players just go out and beat other teams.

But wait, even at Madrid, where the coach is changed every two years, and the President buys players like billionaires buy new Bentley's, just 'coz, the team can underperform, fail and have to reset.

I am a traditionalist. The manager knows how he wants to play the game, and provided he has a chief scout who he cna clearly communicate this too, between the two of them targets are found and then the clubs secretary, chairmen or whatever the fuck that motor bike riding dick wants to call himself, gets the job done.

The only real argument should come in when the managers desire for a player outstrips the clubs willingness to make the fee/wages. The    likes of Ian Ayre should simply be helping Brendan get the players he wants, within the clubs financial constraints. He should never be picking targets.

A director of football? That means we will have two people thinking about the type of player that suits us, and the DoF will be thinking about whether a player will fit in if the current manager gets fired - a variable that is not going to be all that helpful.

Yeah but I think having a DoF at least puts somebody senior in the mix who gets to question/quiz the manager. Someone who might ask, "Why do you want Lovren, when you have Sakho?". Rodgers wanted closer to the Alex Ferguson model where he controls everything, yet he does not have the accomplishments or clout to merit that. We struggle to understand the model where a DoF finds players and a manager has to kind of use them in his system but I don't have a problem with that. The coach is still an employee of the club. I'd also favour the DoF as transfer fixer, I know its not quite what he did but someone like David Dein has clout and a contacts book to get transfers like the Sanchez one sorted (not talking about him specifically).


A DoF is also entitled to come in and ask, in nicer language, why the fuck can't we defend Brendan?

[CraigDS]

Yeah but I think having a DoF at least puts somebody senior in the mix who gets to question/quiz the manager. Someone who might ask, "Why do you want Lovren, when you have Sakho?". Rodgers wanted closer to the Alex Ferguson model where he controls everything, yet he does not have the accomplishments or clout to merit that. We struggle to understand the model where a DoF finds players and a manager has to kind of use them in his system but I don't have a problem with that. The coach is still an employee of the club. I'd also favour the DoF as transfer fixer, I know its not quite what he did but someone like David Dein has clout and a contacts book to get transfers like the Sanchez one sorted (not talking about him specifically).

A DoF is also entitled to come in and ask, in nicer language, why the fuck can't we defend Brendan?

I'm not sure if a DOF is there to question the manager at all, I'm not even sure, in the most part, a DOF would have any input on how the team side of things is run.

From my understanding, and from most examples out there, a DOF tends to deal with the 'business' side of the football part of the club so the manager doesn't have to - so is sort of a mix between a business guy and a football guy and will be well connected and versed in negotiating transfers and new contracts along with other people at the club.

[Mutton Geoff]

As Pop said sometimes going back to basics works and the old Chief Scout and the Manager alone who decide on signings works you only bring the money men when you want he contracts sorted. If there's a hitch with getting the player the Chief scout and manager will have another player to approach.
non football men making football decisions is doomed to failure and this committee proves that.

You generally get a camel when a committee tries to create a horse ! Simple as that.

[CraigDS]

As Pop said sometimes going back to basics works and the old Chief Scout and the Manager alone who decide on signings works you only bring the money men when you want he contracts sorted. If there's a hitch with getting the player the Chief scout and manager will have another player to approach.

Surely that is what happens now?

We have Rodgers and his football guys (so presumably his stats guy and the head scout) who decide on what players to look at, who to continue looking at, etc.

Then the money guys, so Ayre and whoever else, work with them to fit those players into the budget and then go and do the negotiating.


I don't know for certain, but I'd be shocked if Ayre and whoever is sat in on meetings between Rodgers and them lot talking about players and giving his input into their footballing ability.

[Banquo's Ghost]

You generally get a camel when a committee tries to create a horse ! Simple as that.

True - but in our set up, who got the hump? 

[lionel_messias]

I'm not sure if a DOF is there to question the manager at all, I'm not even sure, in the most part, a DOF would have any input on how the team side of things is run.

From my understanding, and from most examples out there, a DOF tends to deal with the 'business' side of the football part of the club so the manager doesn't have to - so is sort of a mix between a business guy and a football guy and will be well connected and versed in negotiating transfers and new contracts along with other people at the club.

Is that David Dein then? I understand he is not currently working for any club...

[CHOPPER]

Wish we had one on Sunday - he could of shouted 'action' and we may have started acting like a football team that wanted to win a game of football and go to the FA cup final.

[lionel_messias]

Wish we had one on Sunday - he could of shouted 'action' and we may have started acting like a football team that wanted to win a game of football and go to the FA cup final.

Or "Cut".

[CraigDS]

Is that David Dein then? I understand he is not currently working for any club...

I'm sure I've read in the past we'd approached him, but I highly doubt he wants anything more full time which is a. outside of London and b. not Arsenal.

Brian Barwick was approached too I believe (who is also a Liverpool fan), again though I'm not sure if he is after such an involved role.

[CHOPPER]

Or "Cut".

The 'n' is not working on your keypad fella.

Its seeing threads like this that fuck me off with football. People talk all the shite in the world abar tactics,players,wages, training techniques, strategy, the works - if a team can't be arsed trying, then none of that other stuff makes a blind bit of difference.

[lionel_messias]

The 'n' is not working on your keypad fella.

Its seeing threads like this that fuck me off with football. People talk all the shite in the world abar tactics,players,wages, training techniques, strategy, the works - if a team can't be arsed trying, then none of that other stuff makes a blind bit of difference.

but who would that be directed at! Yeah, I guess you are right. It doesn't take a motivator to work on Liverpool players during an FA cup semi final.

Ok I gave up:


Klopp KloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKloppKlopp. And breathe.

[Bunter]

Too many nerds with laptops making decision out of our managers hand and no proper "football" man in a position of power. We have a wheeler dealer salesman for a CEO.