Author Topic: Rafa an autocrat? Let's drop that and have a rethink eh?  (Read 21342 times)

royhendo

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Rafa an autocrat? Let's drop that and have a rethink eh?
« on: September 28, 2007, 10:43:22 pm »
If it's OK with you guys, I'd like to get a nagging gripe of mine off my chest. Before I start...

Disclaimer
To misquote Brian's ma: Rafael Benitez is not the messiah (although arguably he's a very naughty boy for not starting Fernando Torres in every league game against all comers).

Rafa drives us all mad with some of his selections - you see the team sheet and you think "eh?". And sometimes when he changes things during a game (for example, in Athens) you're just as flummoxed. At least we're not thinking "Zenden?!" any more.

That's a given - Rafa's not perfect, he's not the messiah, and sometimes he gets it wrong. But it's not the issue this thread is about, and I'm digressing, so I'll get to the point...


In recent months, things like the departures of Paco Ayesteran and Steve Heighway from the club, the post-Athens outburst, and so forth... have led high profile figures who commentate on the club, the media, and many on this board to suggest we have a textbook autocrat at the helm of our beloved club.

I've seen that very word used on these boards, I've heard it on radio shows, and I've seen it hinted at in almost every newspaper that mentions Benitez, and this club.

This was the example that wound me up the most:

http://www.thisisanfield.com/columnists/2007/09/the-fool-on-the-hill/

Quote
What I saw was the ultimate autocrat referring to his assets/players by their surnames when instructing them to warm-up. “Crouch, run” was one example.

That label and its many variants is now being extended to supplement criticism of Rafa's devotion to squad rotation.

I mean, we're all experts, and we want a first choice 11 out each game, and it's in the papers and on the telly every other hour, so if he isn't prepared to listen or change, then, well, he's a control freak, a Bond villain - an autocrat. He won't listen to reason and the league title, the side, and all of us are going to hell in a handcart. It'll be like "Downfall".

Quote
http://en.wiktionary.org/wiki/autocrat
autocrat - A ruler with infinite, or absolute, power; a despot, dictator.

The gist of this is roughly:

  • Benitez has no people skills
  • Benitez doesn't build good relationships with his players / Benitez can't motivate players
  • Benitez doesn't like people telling him he's wrong / isn't prepared to accept that he's ever wrong / can't accept other people's views when they differ from his

And so forth. You get the gist.

I think this suggestion is out of order given the way the man comports himself every time we see him representing the club. It's probably fair to  say that Benitez is a micromanager, but an 'autocrat'? That takes things too far, to an almost slanderous degree.

Most important of all, I think it misses the point entirely of why he is the way he is, and why things at the club are the way they are.

I'd argue that things are happening for a reason, and that that reason is the long-term dominance of Liverpool football club.

So, taking each of the bullets above in turn...

Benitez has no people skills

The man's character - some observations:

  • This week we heard Rafa admit in a press conference that his players travelled more than "Willy Fogg", and there's a thread on here that's ample testament to the man's self-deprecation and wit.
  • Again, this week we've seen him on LFCTV interviewed by the Claire Rourke with a smile on his face, customarily enigmatic but polite, affable, and dare I say, charming. What's not to like about the bloke?

When you see or hear Benitez interviewed, or hear him speak in front of the assembled media, what impression do you get? Do you sense an air of fear, where the assembled media pap their pants in case he takes exception to one of their questions (as, say, another prominent manager is well known for)?

For me, there is generally light heartedness and openness - a willingness to talk about football and to get along. I get the impression of an understated man who is basically warm and polite. In fact, he's a model of politeness.

He sometimes appears enigmatic, and I suppose you could argue that betrays an awkwardness with people who ask him tough questions; however, I think that's wide of the mark.

He may be many things, but Benitez is a football man through and through. We have plenty of testimony of his long-term vision for how he wants things to work, and how he wants his team to play (the template seems to be Sacchi's Milan) and other than his family, you get the impression he's not that interested in anything else. He mixes with football people, he talks football in his spare time... you get my point.

Now, when asked questions on issues like "Will you play Torres in the next match?", he's confident enough to hold his ground, because (and this is my opinion) he doesn't want to show his hand. The media hate that, and with no clues on how to read the man and his decisions, they respond that he's a control freak.

There's nothing really strange about beign tight lipped with the media in footballing circles (Kenny Dalglish anyone?). Being tagged 'enigmatic' generally means a manager won't show his hand when prompted by the media.

None of us (as far as I know) are on the staff at Melwood, and none of us is a jobbing journo with a tape recorder shoved into his face, so none of us knows for sure, but the idea that Benitez lacks warmth as a human being is cobblers for me. Every piece of evidence we have suggests the contrary.


Benitez doesn't build good relationships with his players / Benitez can't motivate players

Some observations:
  • We saw Carra on LFCTV tell Digger that Rafa's a hands on coach with the players, unlike Houllier who stood back from things, and that he gives Carra videos of AC Milan from the late 80s and early 90s to help him analyse the play.
  • When Mascherano signed, he met the player personally and gave him an appraisal of the way he'd played for Argentina in several recent games, and impressed the player with his insight into him personally.
  • He's protective of Torres and trying to manage people's expectations (hard as that is)
  • Babel's talked of his tips on dealing with a hostile crowd.
  • Voronin told of how welcome he was made to feel.

Some examples of natural warmth there. Attempts to actively build relationships with players? Who knows? All I'm suggesting is he comes across as a good bloke who's decent with his staff and players - he's considerate up to a reasonable point. The point is that he considers professional football 'work', but even beyond that, these examples hint at someone who's decent in a working context, where the goal of their collective work is gradual footballing improvement.

On the other side of the equation, you get the impression from some players that they want a more 'hands on' approach.

Bellamy is a recent example of this (you got the feeling he grudgingly admired Benitez - he had to admit that Rafa was good and that he learned a lot, but at the bottom of it, Bellamy wanted to hear how good he was, and he wanted to play every week).

Steven Gerrard's former incarnation is probably the best example there is. The storm that blew around the whole 'will he won't he leave for Chelsea' saga centred largely around the idea that Rafa didn't have a great relationship with him (see the misquote in my signature). Gerrard has grown since then, but at that time, he was unhappy, so it is an issue.

It's probably a fair profile to say that Rafa's a decent bloke, and that he's decent, polite, and fair with his players. As such, to cast him as purely 'bad cop' to Ayesteran's good is probably well wide of the mark.

However, with some players it's clear that this approach only takes things so far. He's no Harry Redknapp, and he won't lavish praise on those who demand it. Some players can't perform to their highest potential without that kind of treatment, so it's clear some players won't last long at Liverpool under Benitez.

But here's where the significance of his demeanour comes in for me. He might not feel he needs to bother with motivation, but there's a reason for that. He's setting the system and the squad up to let motivation take care of itself.

We're getting closer every year to having two quality players in every position. We're not there yet, but we're close. For every game now, there's a growing number of players who aren't sure if they're going to play - and they all want to play. They find out on the day of the match whether they've made the team. Everyone knows they have to maintain their standards, and as a result, consistency becomes more natural.

How do you maximise your chances of a starting slot at Liverpool under Benitez? You train hard, show commitment, show a willingness to learn, and conduct yourself professionally. You get up every morning, you look yourself in the mirror, and you tell yourself you're going to improve and improve and improve.

Part of that is taking pride in your level of professional performance, and that involves giving everything you have (physically and mentally) in every training session, and in every game, regardless of the situation or the opposition.

A manager who 'puts his arm around a player' is prepared to put matters like that aside, and while that's fine, and it raises certain players' games when they need that extra 10%, it's also a short-term thing. It's potentially divisive for the squad, and it's a potential hinderance to long-term improvements in performance.


Benitez doesn't like people telling him he's wrong / isn't prepared to accept that he's ever wrong / can't accept other people's views when they differ from his

This one's a bit more compelling. Ayesteran and Heighway are two words that for many people close the case versus Rafa here.

However, there's evidence to the contrary. He's clearly stubborn, but it's not a case of cutting off his nose to spite his face. Ayesteran and Herrera were examples of him working with mates whose opinions he respected. Macia and Pederzoli are other examples. More recently, he's appointed a long-term friend in Angel Vales to a key position.

Clearly when you're a leader trying to implement a vision, you look to work with people who share your vision, but if you want yes men, it's unlikely that you'll ask those you respect - those you call your friends.

For Benitez to work with these men over a period of years to have suffered so little acrimony hints that he's no autocrat. Would you put up with that kind of treatment over a number of weeks, let alone years, if you were at the top of your professional field? If your boss dismissed your views without a thought if they conflicted with his views? Would you hang around? I've been in that position before and lasted roughly two months. I've never looked back.

At the same time, Benitez is the boss, and he has to make tough decisions whenever he overrules these men he considers friends, men he respects, in what he considers the interests of the club. That takes maturity and sensitivity, as well as ruthlessness when needs be, and he's demonstrated his spirit in ample measure with the decisions he's taken.

People are pissed that we've drawn three games recently, but to be honest, after overruling Ayesteran and lightening pre-season, we're sat a point behind Man U with a game in hand, having already played Chelsea and Villa away, we're unbeaten, other than the Carling Cup game with Itandje between the sticks we've conceded no goals from open play, and meanwhile we've suffered two (arguably three) of the worst refereeing performances in recent memory, conceded four daft pens, have suffered five broken bones (and a collapsed lung) to key players... some might argue we'd have snapped the hand of whoever offered us that before the season started.

Lightening pre-season would clearly have been a tough decision to take - do you think he would have done that lightly? Balague/Bascombe say the relationship between Benitez and Ayesteran had deteriorated over a period of time anyway, and there's probably a lot more to it, but I really doubt autocracy's the root cause. If it were autocracy, Ayesteran's finger would have been raised to Rafa a long long time ago.

I know a lot of people disagree with me on that (hence the thread) but for me it's a half-assed allegation.

On 5 Live this Monday they had some journo hack on (I never caught the guy's name - was in the car with my wife talking over it), and the guy said something along these lines:

'Benitez is a complete control freak whose levels of influence in any project that he's involved in have been almost unseen in football. The team will be growing organically when he gives players a run, and then he can't help himself - he has to put his stamp on things, get his shovel out, and ruin it all'.

I think that's total rubbish, and to suggest that he picks peculiar lineups from game to game as an expression of a fragile ego (which is what the bloke and most of the media seem to suggest) is just utter nonsense.

If anything, it's a lack of ego and intuitiveness that lets him down - he maybe goes too far the other way into a world of stats and graphs, technical analysis and sports science. He believes in his methods and he won't budge to boost his profile with the fans or with the media. To suggest it's to put his personal stamp on things is ridiculous.

If Torres was a robot who was impossible to injure, and whose performance could not be diminished through overwork, then yes - maybe we'd see him start more games, and maybe we'd only need three strikers. But that takes Rafa's belief in 'possibilities' out of the equation, and the fact he'd rather have 4 strikers deliver 15 goals than one delivering 20. That's another weakness he has - too often he worries about what might cause most headaches to the opposing manager. My personal feeling is that for some games, he should put out the side with the strongest form and let the other manager deal with us. Maybe that lesson will come in time. The pre-season lesson has put paid to the sluggish start (although hopefully that doesn't affect our traditional surge late in the season), so that's maybe a sign he's learning his lessons.

However however however... the concerns are based on certain short-term assumptions we have about our squad and its quality.

Perceived weakness 1. Rotation means we have to play players who aren't as good on a regular basis, and leave out players who are magic on a regular basis.

Perceived weakness 2. Rafa needs to stop worrying about the opposition and stick the best side out - let them worry about us.

These weaknesses are based on the fact that Voronin and Crouch just aren't as good as Torres, that Lucas and Momo just aren't as good as Gerrard and Mascherano.

Now - every transfer window that passes is going to weaken the foundations of that perceived weakness. In the first year, we could worry that Mellor wasn't as good as Baros, or that Welsh wasn't as good as Hamann.

In year two, we could worry that Kromkamp wasn't as good as Finnan, or maybe that Cisse wasn't as good as Crouch. We had a little less to worry about.

Now we're worrying which of our four starting strikers at the last World Cup is going to be most effective. Do you see a trend here?

If we stick to our guns, we're going to end up with two or more truly scary players in every position on the park. It'll get more and more difficult to complain, because we'll be just as excited about the player coming in as the player who's been rested. Torres ain't the last player we're ever going to sign, and he won't necessarily be the best. That's the most exciting part of all this for me.

Compounding this excitement is the fact that the players we're retaining are the players who are responding most to the working environment that's been put in place.

We've kept hold of Steven Gerrard, and under Benitez, he's grown as a man and as a professional. From a young fella whose emotions dragged him all over the place, and to the brink of a move to Chelsea, we now see a model professional who is self-motivated, who talks naturally about work rate, and dedication in training, and about the balance of the side - how he's happy to play for the good of the side, not talking about how he's dying to play in the centre for his own personal gratification.

We've seen Jermaine Pennant grow in a similar way, and while he's very much still a work in progress (discipline wyse there's a long way to go, and he still needs more consistency for me), he's become a key player in the squad, and he seems to have sorted out his personal problems and dedicated himself to taking his chance and improving as a pro.

The model pros we had under Ged are flourishing, with Sammi seemingly set for an Indian Summer to his career (and loving the rest he gets), and Carra just seeming to improve with age. Finnan is another example for me.

Some players fall by the wayside because this environment doesn't suit them, but the fact is that those players don't fit our long-term plans, because we need honest players who are prepared to work consistently hard to improve as players and men. That's something that builds momentum in any organisation when it's implemented properly, and you end up with an environment in which talented, dedicated people flourish, and where the right behaviours are rewarded. Standards improve and improve and improve.

That's the reputation and working conditions that have attracted Torres, Alonso, and Reina. The Spanish internationals know how Benitez operates. They've spoken to those who worked with him in Spain. They know they'll get back what they put into their game - and more players of that quality will follow (and not only from Spain). This isn't the season to end all seasons - things are going to keep improving. We're going to go close this year, and there's a good chance we'll win the league, but one thing's for sure - we'll get stronger and stronger and stronger if we stick to the formula.



It wasn't so long ago that the press were gushing over the talent and professionalism of Jose Mourinho, Frank Lampard, and John Terry. Chelsea were in the grip of a personality cult - in fact, arguably two - and when that happens, it's bound to end up in a ball of flames.

So now we're hearing how Terry hamstrung Mourinho, how he's demanded unlimited parity in his contract for a further decade, and how he wants the manager's job when he hangs up his boots. Meanwhile we have Lampard, Cole, and Drogba in the huff because their leader has left them, and the camp is split in two.

What behaviours were being rewarded there? Was long-term planning to the fore? Sure, they've won 2 titles and 6 trophies in 3 years, but what now? They have a quality squad, but it's fractured and vulnerable, and it looks like the other cult leader, the one with the purse strings, wants to make it another version of Hearts.

The truth is, there were 'favourites' and 'cliques' and resentment galore, while all the time the media reported talk of the Chelsea 'family'. Turns out it was so much garbage.

It might seem cold, but Benitez is setting things up precisely to prevent that kind of thing at Liverpool football club. It's the system and management process that motivates, and that promotes professionalism. My opinion, for what it's worth, is that we should put silly allegations of autocracy to one side and focus on how scary we're in the process of becoming.
« Last Edit: September 29, 2007, 12:43:29 am by royhendo »

Offline Waterloo Phil

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Re: Rafa an autocrat? Let's drop that and have a rethink eh?
« Reply #1 on: September 28, 2007, 10:49:04 pm »
wow

Offline ryana83

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Re: Rafa an autocrat? Let's drop that and have a rethink eh?
« Reply #2 on: September 28, 2007, 10:51:30 pm »
<quote>Benitez doesn't like people telling him he's wrong / isn't prepared to accept that he's ever wrong / can't accept other people's views when they differ from his</quote>

I think to back this up we need to look at who Rafa has bought, realised they went the goods and then shipped them out.
For example take Morientes, Josemi, Kromkamp, Barrigan.

All were bought by Rafa - they went good enough i.e. he was wrong - so he accepted his mistake and sold them. I think this further proves that someone has admitted they are wrong.

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Re: Rafa an autocrat? Let's drop that and have a rethink eh?
« Reply #3 on: September 28, 2007, 10:54:48 pm »
<quote>Benitez doesn't like people telling him he's wrong / isn't prepared to accept that he's ever wrong / can't accept other people's views when they differ from his</quote>

I think to back this up we need to look at who Rafa has bought, realised they went the goods and then shipped them out.
For example take Morientes, Josemi, Kromkamp, Barrigan.

All were bought by Rafa - they went good enough i.e. he was wrong - so he accepted his mistake and sold them. I think this further proves that someone has admitted they are wrong.

I agree with that,but when it comes to tactics and team selections,I think he`s a stubborn sod.
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Re: Rafa an autocrat? Let's drop that and have a rethink eh?
« Reply #4 on: September 28, 2007, 10:55:54 pm »
He does have autocratic tendencies, can't be denied.
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Offline smicer07

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Re: Rafa an autocrat? Let's drop that and have a rethink eh?
« Reply #5 on: September 28, 2007, 10:57:32 pm »
Wow how long did it take you to type that?

royhendo

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Re: Rafa an autocrat? Let's drop that and have a rethink eh?
« Reply #6 on: September 28, 2007, 10:59:42 pm »
Wow how long did it take you to type that?

LOL I was banished from looking after the kids tonight mate (getting them too wound up apparently).

Channel 448 on the telly, laptop on my lap, verbal diaorrhoea ;)

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Re: Rafa an autocrat? Let's drop that and have a rethink eh?
« Reply #7 on: September 28, 2007, 11:03:15 pm »



Benitez doesn't like people telling him he's wrong / isn't prepared to accept that he's ever wrong / can't accept other people's views when they differ from his

A compelling post royhendo, cheers.

 I particularly agree with your analysis of the myth that Rafa is some kind of egomaniac, insistant on imposing his will even if he knows it is not in the team's interest. What garbage. Of course Rafa doen't like criticism - show me somebody who does - however, he is so dedicated to the cause that he would not compromise the potential success of the team just to grab the headlines.

I really hate the ignorant witch-hunting that is aimed towards Rafa. Just because the likes of Andy Grey don't understand or like his methods doesnt make him wrong. There is no real redress for journalists and pundits who criticise Rafa. I'll never forget Grey's outrageous diatribe against Rafa as we went down 6-3 to Arsenal in the League Cup. He basically said that our season was over and that it was all Rafa's fault - four months latr our season was still alive in Athens. However, like all easy throw away remarks made by people in the media their comments are quickly forgotten as we start to look forward to the next big event. Pundits are not measured by results and tangible outcomes so their performance has to be more hyperbole than rational. As a result of this, these guys throw endless mud at Rafa's "unorthodox" methods safe in the knowledge that their criticisms will not be highlighted and publically exposed if they get it wrong. Instead, once Rafa starts succeeding the same Rafa-bashers will all come out as sage, wise experts telling us all what a tactical genius he is.  ::)
« Last Edit: September 28, 2007, 11:06:22 pm by Fitzyboy »

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Re: Rafa an autocrat? Let's drop that and have a rethink eh?
« Reply #8 on: September 28, 2007, 11:11:03 pm »
verbal diaorrhoea ;)

Hardly. Fantastic post. Don't entirely agree with Rafa being so affable behind the scenes - just read some of the Valencia stories like after they won La Liga - but some very good points made in your post.
« Last Edit: September 28, 2007, 11:16:14 pm by GinKop »
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Re: Rafa an autocrat? Let's drop that and have a rethink eh?
« Reply #9 on: September 28, 2007, 11:11:05 pm »
Can you run that past me again please, mate?
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Re: Rafa an autocrat? Let's drop that and have a rethink eh?
« Reply #10 on: September 28, 2007, 11:13:18 pm »
Messing aside what's wrong with being autoctatic in his job? It didn't seem to do Shankly, Paisley, Clough, Steing, Busby, Ferguson or Revie any harm. But I can't think of too many matey-matey bosses that fared too well
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royhendo

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Re: Rafa an autocrat? Let's drop that and have a rethink eh?
« Reply #11 on: September 28, 2007, 11:16:00 pm »
I really hate the ignorant witch-hunting that is aimed towards Rafa. Just because the likes of Andy Grey don't understand or like his methods doesnt make him wrong. There is no real redress for journalists and pundits who criticise Rafa. I'll never forget Grey's outrageous diatribe against Rafa as we went down 6-3 to Arsenal in the League Cup. He basically said that our season was over and that it was all Rafa's fault - four months latr our season was still alive in Athens. However, like all easy throw away remarks made by people in the media their comments are quickly forgotten as we start to look forward to the next big event. Pundits are not measured by results and tangible outcomes so their performance has to be more hyperbole than rational. As a result of this, these guys throw endless mud at Rafa's "unorthodox" methods safe in the knowledge that their criticisms will not be highlighted and publically exposed if they get it wrong. Instead, once Rafa starts succeeding the same Rafa-bashers will all come out as sage, wise experts telling us all what a tactical genius he is.  ::)

Totally agree mate - Balague brought me out in a cold sweat on the Times podcast this week when they were talking about what the journos will do now Mourinho has gone. He said something like "there's a certain manager with newly sprouted facial hair in the north west who should keep us well supplied with stories". :/

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Re: Rafa an autocrat? Let's drop that and have a rethink eh?
« Reply #12 on: September 28, 2007, 11:29:40 pm »
And do you honestly think Don Rafael gives a monkies?
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royhendo

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Re: Rafa an autocrat? Let's drop that and have a rethink eh?
« Reply #13 on: September 28, 2007, 11:41:37 pm »
And do you honestly think Don Rafael gives a monkies?

Nah you're right - he probably couldn't care less - but these media feckers get everyone worked up into a lather and next thing you know people are booing when their favourite player's not on the park. Someone was on here today citing the following:

Quote
Had Rafa not been so absorbed in his calculated, professional-to-the-nth-degree preparations for Saturday's game against Birmingham, he would have taken note of the groups of Norwegian, Spanish and Chinese fans arriving for their once-in-a-lifetime experience. He would have seen the Dad in the 'Gerrard' shirt excitedly teaching his son in the 'Torres' shirt the words to 'You'll Never Walk Alone'. He would also have noticed the collapse of the pre-match atmosphere when it became apparent that Torres would not be starting the game. They wanted to see the lad, fit or not, in-form or not.

My view is FUCK THEM. The manager makes the decision. If we want a club that yields to a popular vote in its team selection, we should go and support Real Mad... oh no, that experiment didn't work, did it?

It's a joke that people are blind enough not to take a long-term view, but Jol's situation at Spurs is testament to the power that the media has. The journo's favourite word is 'crisis'. We have no crisis but some of us are all lathered up despite our current position.

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Re: Rafa an autocrat? Let's drop that and have a rethink eh?
« Reply #14 on: September 28, 2007, 11:51:42 pm »
I see what you mean. Never thought of it like that. but fact is, Rafa is a stubborn bastido. He will take no notice and wither be prved right or fall on his sword. I reckon he'll be proved right.
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Re: Rafa an autocrat? Let's drop that and have a rethink eh?
« Reply #15 on: September 28, 2007, 11:51:55 pm »
One of the best posts I've read on here in a long long time, mate.

I've been thinking about similar things myself the last few days or so, but you've put it far more eloquently than I could've.

There will (of course) be those who will shoot it down in flames, with "witty" one liners, and that is entirely fair - as we're all entitled to our opinions, but I honestly feel that the angle you're coming from will serve us (as a club) better.

Seriously good post.

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Re: Rafa an autocrat? Let's drop that and have a rethink eh?
« Reply #16 on: September 28, 2007, 11:57:35 pm »
Yeah probably one liners about you not having the right trainees on when you writ if.
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Offline Driftwood

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Re: Rafa an autocrat? Let's drop that and have a rethink eh?
« Reply #17 on: September 29, 2007, 12:11:15 am »
Yea, great post mate. The best I've read in a long time.
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Offline Fat Scouser

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Re: Rafa an autocrat? Let's drop that and have a rethink eh?
« Reply #18 on: September 29, 2007, 12:15:24 am »
Oh well chaps, Zebedee has boinged over... time for bed. But excellent post in deed, and do a Rafa if anyone tries to take the piss... take no fuckin notivce
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Offline anon-y-mouse

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Re: Rafa an autocrat? Let's drop that and have a rethink eh?
« Reply #19 on: September 29, 2007, 12:25:40 am »
An interesting analysis. All I will add is that after 99 games without naming an unchanged side, Rafa did it, last season against Bordeaux. Why?

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Re: Rafa an autocrat? Let's drop that and have a rethink eh?
« Reply #20 on: September 29, 2007, 12:31:35 am »
.....after 99 games without naming an unchanged side, Rafa did it, last season against Bordeaux. Why?
Comedy timing.
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Re: Rafa an autocrat? Let's drop that and have a rethink eh?
« Reply #21 on: September 29, 2007, 12:36:48 am »
"Run Forrest Crouchy run! "

 ;D

Sorry I couldn't resist.

Great post mate.
It's true to say that if Shankly had told us to invade Poland we'd be queuing up 10 deep all the way from Anfield to the Pier Head.

Offline Murpheus

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Re: Rafa an autocrat? Let's drop that and have a rethink eh?
« Reply #22 on: September 29, 2007, 12:39:25 am »
An interesting analysis. All I will add is that after 99 games without naming an unchanged side, Rafa did it, last season against Bordeaux. Why?


I loved it when he did that!

There was so much hype being built up by the media about it & they were really working themselves into a frenzy. Then Rafa goes & pisses on their chips by naming an unchanged side.

There definitely was more than a hint of 'fuck you, I'll do it my way' from Rafa...Class!
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Re: Rafa an autocrat? Let's drop that and have a rethink eh?
« Reply #23 on: September 29, 2007, 12:42:04 am »
Good and well thought out post.

Can also say, Aurelio, Garcia, Pelligrino knew Rafa from before and still didnt hesitate to join us. 

Alonso knew Madrid wanted him, still came to Rafa.

Thanks again for the post, nice one.

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Re: Rafa an autocrat? Let's drop that and have a rethink eh?
« Reply #24 on: September 29, 2007, 12:52:22 am »
Oh well, definetly got to go to bed now. But wanted to resay this before I do... what's wrong with an autocrat for a manager? Shanks, Paisley, Clough, Busby, Ferguson, Stein, Revie they were/are all autocrats never seemed to serve them okay.
And how the fuck are manager's supposed to tell young, mostly thick, miilionaires what to do?
Can't do it by being their mates, ask Keegan
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Re: Rafa an autocrat? Let's drop that and have a rethink eh?
« Reply #25 on: September 29, 2007, 12:59:00 am »
I certainly think that Benitez is a perfectionist, and perfectionists tend to be control freaks if their success depend on others. The way he operates from the technical area makes it look like he is moving the players with a remote control. Not, I don't think he leaves many things to chance.
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Re: Rafa an autocrat? Let's drop that and have a rethink eh?
« Reply #26 on: September 29, 2007, 01:05:19 am »

Interesting and well thought out post. 

Well written too. Enough so, that i wish i had penned it actually.

Hats off to you mate.
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Re: Rafa an autocrat? Let's drop that and have a rethink eh?
« Reply #27 on: September 29, 2007, 01:07:09 am »
First post that I've bookmarked the author since PT's heyday.

Offline Brigor Cheyaore

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Re: Rafa an autocrat? Let's drop that and have a rethink eh?
« Reply #28 on: September 29, 2007, 01:22:14 am »
Wonderful post, and I agree with almost everything.  I feel a bit bad only quoting one little paragraph, but what can you do.  This is the crucial part where I disagree

Quote
But here's where the significance of his demeanour comes in for me. He might not feel he needs to bother with motivation, but there's a reason for that. He's setting the system and the squad up to let motivation take care of itself.
How many world class attacking talents have this type of personality?  I realize it's a bit of a stereotype, but I think it generally holds true.  If we limit ourselves to only the most self-motivated players in the world, we're going to have a really hard time bringing in world class attacking talent.
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Offline Mimi

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Re: Rafa an autocrat? Let's drop that and have a rethink eh?
« Reply #29 on: September 29, 2007, 01:31:47 am »
Nice one, Royhendo. Nice to see a post attempting to understand Rafa rather than summarily dismissing him and his footballing methods. I can understand criticism but some of it has been way over the top especially for the team not having lost a game. I don't get people who categorically state that Rafa does not understand what it means to win the Premiership and that he prefers the CL. Some fools amongst our support have even disparaged the CL, clearly forgetting what it meant to this entire team just two years ago. They go even further and say that we'll never win a Premiership under him because of this. How can they possibly still claim to support the team if they have no faith in its coach? I don't mind so much the snide comments about Rafa's man management style because the people who make such personal "observations" are using non-existent info.  We don't see the daily meetings, we don't see what goes on at training, we don't see how he conducts himself in the coach or the plane, we don't see how he conducts himself in the dressing room etc. But what we do see- the players' interviews and Rafa's appearance in the press-- all seem to suggest as you note an intelligent, genial and even charming man.   

Good and well thought out post.

Can also say, Aurelio, Garcia, Pelligrino knew Rafa from before and still didnt hesitate to join us. 

Alonso knew Madrid wanted him, still came to Rafa.

Thanks again for the post, nice one.

RiH

And Torres. Find it funny that people like Birtles (who did the commentary for the carling cup game) wonder incredulously why only Liverpool came in for Torres. They should be wondering why out of all the possible options that were open to him, Fernando wanted only Liverpool and Rafa. This is from a player that has spent more than half of his life in a professional club atmosphere, who knows football inside and out. He chose the club and Rafa to revitalize his stagnating career. People moaning about Rafa's treatment of Torres or arguing that Rafa is trying mind games to show his most expensive signing who is boss are clearly deluding themselves. Torres trusts Rafa, and I can see that trust is being repaid in the way Rafa is easing him in. He may be 23 but he's always played in very high pressure situations like Atletico and the national team. Criticized for every mistake the team made, and he has only recently admitted that he was truly ill-equipped to deal with the pressure after seeing how Carra and Gerrard conduct themselves as captains in Liverpool. You can see his genuine enjoyment at playing and scoring free from the constant scrutiny. Why should we pile it back on by insisting that only he will make us win. We're better than a one-man team. I admire that Rafa has the faith in his players and will not back down from showing it.

Also in addition to Torres some of the most exciting young players from around the world have come to join Liverpool because of Rafa and what they feel he can offer to their development. Players like Leiva, Agger, and Babel. So it's not just about attracting recognized stars but also about the promising youth. Rafa has shown that he can reach across the entire spectrum from the older players (Hyypia, Finnan), the ones in mid-career (Gerrard, Alonso, Carra) and to the young ones (Torres, Babel, Agger). He has left his own positive influence on all of them. What more proof of man managment do you need?
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Offline shanklyboy

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Re: Rafa an autocrat? Let's drop that and have a rethink eh?
« Reply #30 on: September 29, 2007, 01:42:48 am »
Rafa won over the Valencia players, press and supporters during his time there.
He publicy cried when he knew he was leaving the club and hasn't been back to the city since.
Many of the players we have signed, including Torres have stated that Rafa being here was a major factor in them joining the club.
I have never heard any negative remarks about his coaching skills or his handling of players from any player who has left our club.
I'm sure that if all the negatives that have been perpetuated about Rafa's personality were true, Real Madrid wouldn't have come in for him twice , to take over at the Bernabeu.

The actual article you posted the link for is something I would expect from some shit stiring tabloid hack, maybe thats what the lad who wrote it has aspirations of being. It is a none story without substance and written from his own agenda.
I wouldn't normally expect to hear it from a Liverpool fan but given some of the posts I've seen on here in the past week, nothing surprises me anymore. 
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Offline Mighty_Red

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Re: Rafa an autocrat? Let's drop that and have a rethink eh?
« Reply #31 on: September 29, 2007, 02:14:40 am »
At the moment Rafa-bashing is fair game, because a lot of his methods differ from the styles of most british managers and because he hasn't delivered the title (yet) he does not command the same sort of respect given to the other three bigwigs in the league, despite a pretty impressive record.

Funny how no1 really talks about marking space at set-pieces anymore? Even the goal conceded against Reading was because of poor defending by everyone (including the keeper) with the other being offside. Most journos have grudgingly accepted that our defence is one of the best and the system is part of that success. It wont stop them mentioning it if we concede in a high-profile game tho.

The bottom line is that Rafa's methods work and are proven over a number of years. If they didnt we would be much much further down the table than where we currently are. Thats not to say that they are any better or worse than any other methods used by the best, cos you can achieve success in a number of ways.

Yes we can always argue about the finer points of any strategy (i.e. individual selections) and theres no denying that mistakes have been made that have cost us in the past but overall rotation has worked very well for us, its just that people don't analyse the team changes whilst the team is winning every week, they only do it after a bad result.

Back to the original question - well theres no doubt that Rafa likes to be in control of everything, and even he admits that its the assistant managers job to be the nice guy to the players, arm round the shoulder type stuff. He is the cold manager that will put sentiment to one side when making tough decisions. Even in the days of Shanks & Bob there has always been a kinda good cop, bad cop mentality

In fact it was the absence of a "bad cop" that stopped us from being successful with Roy Evans

Put it another way, don't mess with Evil Rafa, he is a bad muthafucker :)

EDIT: Forgot to mention, great post royhendo :wave
« Last Edit: September 29, 2007, 12:03:07 pm by Mighty_Red »
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Offline albertared

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Re: Rafa an autocrat? Let's drop that and have a rethink eh?
« Reply #32 on: September 29, 2007, 03:05:21 am »
Wonderful post, and I agree with almost everything.  I feel a bit bad only quoting one little paragraph, but what can you do.  This is the crucial part where I disagree
How many world class attacking talents have this type of personality?  I realize it's a bit of a stereotype, but I think it generally holds true.  If we limit ourselves to only the most self-motivated players in the world, we're going to have a really hard time bringing in world class attacking talent.

can't agree with that, with respect. i've been watching the Reds for 40 years (mostly at a distance regrettably) but one thing i can tell you without question....there have been very few players who got more than a handful of games who were not self-motivated (pre-1990s anyway). Shankly/Pausley/Dalglish/Souness etc. absolutely would not stand for anyone remotely lazy.

not only that, can you imagine being in a team with people like phil thompson, emlyn hughes or the above-mentioned souness or dalglish, or better yet tommy smith, and expect to be able to stroll around and only contribute whenyou felt like it? not bloody likely! you would most likely be taken to one side and told to shape up or you might be on the end of a kicking of some kind.

otherwise i agree with your general agreement with the original post with the slight proviso that i myself have suggested that player relations could yet be Rafa's fatal flaw but we will see.
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Offline Brigor Cheyaore

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Re: Rafa an autocrat? Let's drop that and have a rethink eh?
« Reply #33 on: September 29, 2007, 03:21:50 am »
can't agree with that, with respect. i've been watching the Reds for 40 years (mostly at a distance regrettably) but one thing i can tell you without question....there have been very few players who got more than a handful of games who were not self-motivated (pre-1990s anyway). Shankly/Pausley/Dalglish/Souness etc. absolutely would not stand for anyone remotely lazy.

not only that, can you imagine being in a team with people like phil thompson, emlyn hughes or the above-mentioned souness or dalglish, or better yet tommy smith, and expect to be able to stroll around and only contribute whenyou felt like it? not bloody likely! you would most likely be taken to one side and told to shape up or you might be on the end of a kicking of some kind.

otherwise i agree with your general agreement with the original post with the slight proviso that i myself have suggested that player relations could yet be Rafa's fatal flaw but we will see.
It's not just normal players (meaning they're obviously motivated to make it that far) that Rafa goes for, it's the captains of the team.  I worry that this might mean we'll never see a player like Robben, Quaresma, Messi, or Ronaldinho succeed under Rafa.  Maybe I should've been clearer, it seems Rafa has a fetish for captains (not bad jokes please!) or captain material that makes our list of potential top class creative players very very short.
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Offline Merlock

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Re: Rafa an autocrat? Let's drop that and have a rethink eh?
« Reply #34 on: September 29, 2007, 08:52:29 am »
One way to motivate without any people skills is competition for places. That would entail changing players simply to keep them on their toes.
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Re: Rafa an autocrat? Let's drop that and have a rethink eh?
« Reply #35 on: September 29, 2007, 09:20:16 am »
I couldn't really care less what sort of relationship Rafa has with the players.It always makes me laugh when you hear of players who 'don't want to play for the manager anymore'.You play for the club,who pay your ridiculous wages,and the fans-any player giving less than 100% because he doesn't see eye to eye with the manager is a gobshite imo.
   Motivation is another overused word in the modern game.Again,any player not giving 100% in any situation is basically cheating the club and supporters.It's that simple.
  And what of the pundits? Basically the biggest shower of shithouses you could wish to behold.A perfect example this week. Imagine the outcry if Rafa had fielded the sort of side Ferguson did this week. Cries of indignation about disrespecting the club,fans,competition,English game and so forth.
   The silence has been deafening.Because,quite simply,they are fucking cowards who haven't got the guts to criticise 'Sir' Alex. Their treatment of Rafa has been disgraceful from day one-made worse by the fact he is the only one of the top managers who acts in a dignified manner.
  At the end of the day Rafa will live or die by what he achieves at our club and I can't ever remember looking at any of our players during a game recently and thinking "so and so isn't giving 100%, he can't be motivated." Thats good enough for me.

Offline Rhaegar21

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Re: Rafa an autocrat? Let's drop that and have a rethink eh?
« Reply #36 on: September 29, 2007, 09:25:24 am »
Great post.

I remember when Alonso signed, how he felt that Rafa was a 'master psychologist', and the reason he was coming to Liverpool.
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Offline Red Rascal

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Re: Rafa an autocrat? Let's drop that and have a rethink eh?
« Reply #37 on: September 29, 2007, 09:32:16 am »
"If Torres was a robot who was impossible to injure, and whose performance could not be diminished through overwork, then yes - maybe we'd see him start more games, and maybe we'd only need three strikers. But that takes Rafa's belief in 'possibilities' out of the equation, and the fact he'd rather have 4 strikers deliver 15 goals than one delivering 20. That's another weakness he has - too often he worries about what might cause most headaches to the opposing manager. My personal feeling is that for some games, he should put out the side with the strongest form and let the other manager deal with us. Maybe that lesson will come in time. The pre-season lesson has put paid to the sluggish start (although hopefully that doesn't affect our traditional surge late in the season), so that's maybe a sign he's learning his lessons."

Rafa can't do that yet. He wants the 'two' Liverpool team to work as one and I think he is dealing with Defensive and Attacking concepts. What people usually call as set pieces are even subsets of these D and A concepts. That's why strategic and tactical knowledge is important for each and every player to 'synthesise' in their game.

It is not everyone got a 'different role' anymore. Its everyone got two or three roles and they may overlap with another player. So to tackle a 'defensive team' that packs the midfield, he will fill it with more 'defensive concept minded players' so that they will unravel the other team.

He can do so much as implement his system. At the end of the day the players need to implement it well.

The team will be poor when they are not concentrating or not fit, in the case of Portsmouth and Porto game. In the case of Birmingham, the strikers and midfielders employing the concepts somehow got confused or did not managed to subdue the opposition. The opposition actually READ the concepts.

The concepts often work, because what Rafa does for the first 30 minutes is to BREAK DOWN the opposition team and then the team will run riot in the 2nd half. This had been shown prior to Portmouth and even with Chelsea, a big team. Hence his conceptual play really works.

So perhaps he need a BREAKER or some kind of psychological tactic to deploy against teams that read his concepts. Traditionally by sitting back and absorbing attack after attack is one ploy, ie suddenly go defensive when one expects you to attack. However it needs to have the whole team to turn it around on cue and the fans to actually appreciate that its a tactic and that it will work.

Fans now is not appreciating the system with its D & A concepts...fans are reactive to say the least.
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Re: Rafa an autocrat? Let's drop that and have a rethink eh?
« Reply #38 on: September 29, 2007, 09:35:35 am »
not only that, can you imagine being in a team with people like phil thompson, emlyn hughes or the above-mentioned souness or dalglish, or better yet tommy smith, and expect to be able to stroll around and only contribute whenyou felt like it? not bloody likely! you would most likely be taken to one side and told to shape up or you might be on the end of a kicking of some kind.

Having said that, and slightly off topic, I read a Darts book where Eric Bristow said that Graeme Souness had said he admired the mental strength he had to win, because if Souness was feeling the pressure, he could dissapear in a game and let the team carry him for a bit, but as a dart player there's nowhere to hide.

Interesting that even a player that people thought never hid, admits to doing it.

Also, this was a book from the 80's, so written at the time Souness played for us.  Very interesting really, because when you're successful, all the bad performances disappear out of your mind....

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Offline Big Joe

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Re: Rafa an autocrat? Let's drop that and have a rethink eh?
« Reply #39 on: September 29, 2007, 09:48:11 am »
Yup - great post. If the volume of bad press from bitter ex-players is anything to go by, Rafa's people skills can't be too bad.