Topic: First preseason match an indication on how we will setup this season?

[SerbianScouser]

So, apparently 433 is the future and our default formation from now on. ( which actually is consistent with how much we insisted on it since the Arsenal game and in this preseason ).

I think it`s a huge mistake and I don`t see it working.

I can get behind the 433 when Sturridge is fit and he`s on the right side with Firmino on the left and Benteke in the middle. It could work especially against the bottom 13 teams as both Sturridge and Firmino do have that natural desire to get on the end of things and score which means we`ll be seeing them on the far post trying to finish when necessary.

Also in that case we`d have to choose one of Hendo/Milner as Coutinho is a first name on the team-sheet ( at least for me ) and in that set-up as one of two midfielders infront of DM he`d always have 2-3 people in front of him which is exactly what you`d want.

If we use 433 at Stoke it`d mean our brazilians will be flanking Benteke which is a very very sketchy idea. Coutinho for me has done his time wide and has proved to be on a brink of superstardom and has proved he can find consistency in this league. Shunting him on the wing should never be contemplated again. He`s our playmaker, our main guy, our creative genius - don`t mess with it and rather choose one of Hendo and Milner rather than restricting us by putting our best player in a position he can`t dictate the game from.

So not only would we not use Coutinho in his best position but Firmino as well. The guy is a proper no.10 if I ever saw one and he`s not like other no.10s who just create this guy can also score goals and be an auxiliary striker and really provide true support to Benteke. Why not use him there but shunt him on the wing?

It`s obvious Milner and Hendo are first choice for our 2 box-to-box midfielders in a midfield 3 but we shouldn`t be forcing 433 unless we have 3 goal-scorers  available because Rodgers` 433 always becomes 451 as he`s using the likes of Ibe, Lallana, Coutinho there - people that are more about creating rather than finishing.

[Roger Federer]

I think it's pretty clear that we'll play 4 at the back, one controller behind Milner and Henderson in midfield, but it's difficult to say how the front three will look like as Firmino, Coutinho and Benteke haven't been part of the pre season yet.

You could still be right SS, but if Firmino can play as a second striker, I wouldn't rule out a diamond with Coutinho behind Benteke and Firmino. Like you, I think Coutinho should be central, and when Sturridge is fit, I'd move him deeper as well, and let him have more options ahead of him. Not sure Rodgers agree with that though, it will be interesting to see how we line up when everyone is available.

[SerbianScouser]

You could still be right SS, but if Firmino can play as a second striker, I wouldn't rule out a diamond with Coutinho behind Benteke and Firmino.

That`s exactly how I`d want us to set-up and how I feel would be the most sensible solution that can get the best out of our players, but then you see in Echo Pearce intimating that Rodgers made it clear 433 will be our default formation - we`ll know for sure at Helsinki - and that we`ll use it around Benteke which for me is a bit unfortunate.

[mrantarctica]

It will really depend on whether BR sees us having a need for a DM/controller if we play 2 CMs with the energy/pressing of Milner and Henderson.

IMHO, I think if we ARE to play Milner and Henderson together, then the diamond is probably going to work best, with Lucas sitting at the base and Coutinho, Firmino or Lallana at the apex

[DG]

I agree with most of what's been said, 4-3-3 doesn't make a lot of sense right now. Would much prefer the diamond as I think it's perfect for our squad.

[clinical]

I think the diamond suits us a lot more due to firmino and coutinho. But that leaves ibe out which is a shame, but he will get game time 100%

Just can't see where both firmino and coutinho play in a 4-3-3

[L666KOP]

That`s exactly how I`d want us to set-up and how I feel would be the most sensible solution that can get the best out of our players, but then you see in Echo Pearce intimating that Rodgers made it clear 433 will be our default formation - we`ll know for sure at Helsinki - and that we`ll use it around Benteke which for me is a bit unfortunate.

Confirmed ?
With quotes, or has he been 'told' ?

[SerbianScouser]

Confirmed ?
With quotes, or has he been 'told' ?

"The Reds boss has made it clear that 4-3-3 is the future and the £32.5million new boy will be the focal point of his attack on August 9. The question is who starts either side of him at the Britannia Stadium?"

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/liverpool-fc-boss-brendan-rodgers-9725915

And besides, it`s in line with what we`ve seen since the Arsenal game - which you might interpret as working on 433 for the new season - and in preseason.

[clinical]

If 4-3-3 that means coutinho and firmino on the wings. Can't see this working.

Put coutinho in midfield with Henderson and Milner? Knife through butter

[CHOPPER]

Cider, then probably revert back to a lager/jack formation as the season progresses.

[L666KOP]

"The Reds boss has made it clear that 4-3-3 is the future and the £32.5million new boy will be the focal point of his attack on August 9. The question is who starts either side of him at the Britannia Stadium?"

http://www.liverpoolecho.co.uk/sport/football/football-news/liverpool-fc-boss-brendan-rodgers-9725915

And besides, it`s in line with what we`ve seen since the Arsenal game - which you might interpret as working on 433 for the new season - and in preseason.

Cheers.

Fucking brilliant.

**Fucks off to the Brentie thread to revise my predictions**

[L666KOP]

If 4-3-3 that means coutinho and firmino on the wings. Can't see this working.

Put coutinho in midfield with Henderson and Milner? Knife through butter

It won't work because we have a comedy pairing at CB. Irrespective of who plays.

If we are sticking to 433 then half the players we have won't get a game. I just don't understand why ?

[clinical]

It won't work because we have a comedy pairing at CB. Irrespective of who plays.

If we are sticking to 433 then half the players we have won't get a game. I just don't understand why ?

4-3-3 suits Ibe markovic not coutinho and firmino

[L666KOP]

4-3-3 suits Ibe markovic not coutinho and firmino

Lallana, Coutinho, Ibe, Firmino, Markovic. All for wide forward/AM position.

Benteke, Sturridge, Ings, Origi. All for potentially 1 position, if we deviate from 433 then they're competing with the Forwards for a game.

That's 9 players for the forward/striker roles.

Henderson and Milner will be shoe ins.

That leaves 9 players all fighting for 4 spots.

[Mamadou]

its probably going to be

Henderson  Milner
        Coutinho

[10 years on]

its probably going to be

Henderson  Milner
        Coutinho

Where's can going to fit in?

[L666KOP]

Where's can going to fit in?

He'll be sat with Allen, and Lucas in the stand.

[10 years on]

He'll be sat with Allen, and Lucas in the stand.

Not sure about that to be honest.

[Redman78]

He'll be sat with Allen, and Lucas in the stand.

I think with the players we now have it gives us great flexibility to be able to adapt our system depending on opposition and in game situations.
Whether Brendan can implement that is effectively is another question

[Roger Federer]

Lallana, Coutinho, Ibe, Firmino, Markovic. All for wide forward/AM position.

Benteke, Sturridge, Ings, Origi. All for potentially 1 position, if we deviate from 433 then they're competing with the Forwards for a game.

That's 9 players for the forward/striker roles.

Henderson and Milner will be shoe ins.

That leaves 9 players all fighting for 4 spots.

If Milner and Henderson really are shoe ins, I'm not sure why the formation matter. We have 14 midfielders and forwards for 6 spots, if we play with a back four. If those two take 2 of them, that will leave 12 players fighting for 4 spots and regardless of formation, that will always be the case.

[lachesis]

I think it's the formation that suits the players we have the most. It's probably the most flexible to change as well. I'm glad we're going back to it. The 3-4-3 was a change when we needed it, but it would only ever be a stop gap solution seeing Markovic and Sterling as wing backs etc. I also think it proves that Brendan still has conviction in himself. I'd be slightly worried if we changed systems permanently as uncertainty usually only ends one way.

I think Benteke really needs a Le Tissier type of player to play behind him. If he had one at Villa I'm betting he would be held in higher esteem at the moment. Don't get me wrong, I still think his transfer has potential to be a disaster but he has a good set of tools and can convert chances. He can just as easily fulfil his potential here as flop.

I like Coutinho in the middle. He's the more two footed and you need to give him that space and opportunity to go either way. I think Coutinho and Firmino both need to be on the pitch as they can both play with Sturridge or Benteke. Lallana and Markovic still need to prove themselves in my opinion - so does Firmino like, but he's coming with a different pedigree than those players.

I can see Milner/Can vying for the same position - possibly Can coming on as a sub in quite a few games for him, and starting some of the cup games etc. Will be interesting. I hope it's not a case of too many options muddy the water though for Brendan. I hope it's going to be more Alex Ferguson style of management where if we're chasing a goal, he throws on more and more options until you at last force one in, rather than chop/change and never get a proper handle on what your best front line is.

[Trendisnotdestiny]

As much as I agree with the OP and DanA's analysis here, one thought occurred to me.  Why not just use the plain 3-5-1-1 and try to dominate midfield and the ball in advantageous pockets on the pitch? 

Its similar to the 4-4-1-1 (strikers stacked) orientation, but the focus becomes squeezing pressure at different points on the pitch.

                                                           Migs

                                             Clyne    Skrtel   Sakho   

                    Lallana              Henderson    Milner          Ibe/Markovic

                                                     Coutinho

                                                                       Firmino
                                           Benteke

Plus, it gets you key players into the game, except for Lucas, Can, Allen.  It does limit Clyne's impact and Lallana might get exposed at times.    Probably a bunch of bollocks, but this formation stuck out in my mind as a floating triangle compressing the center of pitch space with the two Brazilians as levers in between with a counter target still available.  If we get pinned in, we can compress the corners with our flank players.  But the door on the backside would be left open.... 

Anyhow, thank DanA for your work on this.

[clinical]

its probably going to be

Henderson  Milner
        Coutinho

None of those players keep their position they roam. It would be a disaster

[ShayGuevara]

It won't work because we have a comedy pairing at CB. Irrespective of who plays.

If we are sticking to 433 then half the players we have won't get a game. I just don't understand why ?

Why not? If anything that would be 3-4-2-1.

4-3-3 or its diamond variation throughout the season suits all/most of our players.

[SerbianScouser]

352 could work great for us as it would allow us to put as many attacking players on the pitch as we can, especially if Ibe continues his ascendancy. I think L.VG`s 352 with a single pivot would suit us more.

Two tactical ideas I dislike the most is big Phil being shunted on the wing and having Milner and Henderson in a `two`. I think by having themm two screening takes away almost everything that is good about their games which in relentless vertical movement on the pitch and ability to go up and down all down which not many opposition CMs in theory could cope with. It gives you the thrust and the drive to push and press aggressively while at the same time having outstanding physical ability to recover position and get behind the ball which will be a massive improvement to having a 34-year old Gerrard who leaves us exposed when he gets bypassed.

That`s the only thing I`d tweak with your formation and I hope we use 352 occasionally during the season as Firmino has that ability to drop deeper and at the same time manage to offer proper support to our no.9.

[clinical]

        Can
Milner Henderson
      Coutinho
Firmino
    Benteke

Diamond suits us more. Ibe would be missing but can be an impact sub. Coutinho and fIrmino as wingers in a 4-3-3 is such a waste

Now they can roam all they like in this formation as they have cover in milner and Henderson

[BeautifulGame91]

This is probably our best front 6.Lallana or Ibe till Sturridge is fit

Henderson         Milner
         
                Coutinho

Sturridge   Benkete   Firmino

Hopefully Henderson and Milner are disciplined enough to make it work .

We will have an incredible attack with Coutinho at no.10 pulling strings with three attackers  ahead of him and both Milner and Henderson running in from behind .

Only thing  is Milner needs  act as a controller and stay back and pick his runs like Carrick used to do for Ferguson's united teams of the past .We definitely have the work rate with Hendo Milner and Coutinho to make it work .

That front 3 could easily match our scoring of 2013/14 .

[L666KOP]

Why not? If anything that would be 3-4-2-1.

4-3-3 or its diamond variation throughout the season suits all/most of our players.

It doesn't suit our defence though.

The only time we've looked halfway decent is playing 3 at the back. And now we're moving back to a four, with the same personnel, hoping for a different result.

[Fiasco]

This is probably our best front 6.Lallana or Ibe till Sturridge is fit

Henderson         Milner
         
                Coutinho

Sturridge   Benkete   Firmino

Hopefully Henderson and Milner are disciplined enough to make it work .

We will have an incredible attack with Coutinho at no.10 pulling strings with three attackers  ahead of him and both Milner and Henderson running in from behind .

Only thing  is Milner needs  act as a controller and stay back and pick his runs like Carrick used to do for Ferguson's united teams of the past .We definitely have the work rate with Hendo Milner and Coutinho to make it work .

That front 3 could easily match our scoring of 2013/14 .

Milner would be very much wasted in that team though. It's a very attacking team, too attacking, because it would leave our defence exposed and when that happens we concede a bucket load.

[GregCharrua]

Worried about the defense in the 433 - namely a Skrtel/Sakho or Skrtel/Lovren pairing - basically Skrtel in a high line... its just never worked.

But the rest of the squad would look good in it, depending on how attacking we want to go in a match.

My guess is Firmino is going to play the no.10 role and make runs past Benteke, do what Sigurdsson did for Rodgers at Swansea. Milner and Henderson will sit behind him like Allen and Britton did at Swansea (neither of them destroyers).

For the wings I'd imagine Coutinho will be playing out on the left frequently. Sturridge, Lallana, Ibe playing on the right. Ings and Origi can come on and play on the left or right wing, too. Ings maybe even in Firmino role in some matches.

But I'm worried about defense. If we can start scoring loads of goals again then great but if not...

[Coolie High]

This is probably our best front 6.Lallana or Ibe till Sturridge is fit

Henderson         Milner
         
                Coutinho

Sturridge   Benkete   Firmino

Hopefully Henderson and Milner are disciplined enough to make it work .

We will have an incredible attack with Coutinho at no.10 pulling strings with three attackers  ahead of him and both Milner and Henderson running in from behind .

Only thing  is Milner needs  act as a controller and stay back and pick his runs like Carrick used to do for Ferguson's united teams of the past .We definitely have the work rate with Hendo Milner and Coutinho to make it work .

That front 3 could easily match our scoring of 2013/14 .

Not at all.

[MolbyLovesGravlax]

As much as it makes it harder to fit all the sexy players in I think it is fairly obvious the Rodgers version of 4-3-3 ala Swansea will be our main system, with a 4-4-2 Diamond the backup when we want to play 2 out and out strikers. Also think 3 at the back will return mid match at certain times.
But we will line up 4-3-3 against Stoke with most of us able to predict at least 8 of the starters.

[ShayGuevara]

I always suspected it would be a 4-3-3, particularly as it was how we finished the seasons with nothing to play for other than cohesion for next (this) season.

In certain areas of the pitch we have very similar players, in others we have options which is required. We are finally seeing a Brendan Rodgers squad and this season we'll see exactly how he wants us to play. I do feel the 13/14 season will have influenced that philosophy heavily though and it's more likely he wants to replicate (better) that than anything he may have done in his Swansea days.

In Bogdan he's brought himself in a more commanding, taller keeper who can deal with crosses better. It's another option when teams produce Mignolets cryptonite (crosses, big physical strikers). I can see him laying the odd Premier League game for this reason. Jones offered nothing Mgnolet even in bad form didn't.

At full back we've been buying up high energy, high work rate full backs. Long are the days of Johnson and Enrique at full back, casually strolling up and down the pitch without a care in the world. Moreno and Clyne are very similar in terms of work rate and relentless running. Clyne is more developed and a better defender but Moreno has age on his side.

At centre half I don't think Rodgers is fully satisfied and if there was extra cash there this summer he may have brought in someone else. It's an area we may see problems at this season like the past few and we have to hope Lovren improves or Skrtel adapts further to a Rodgers back 4.

In CM, just like full back Rodgers seems to like high energy/work rate players. Milner for instance is not your tika taka CM that you would have thought Rodgers would have been in the market for when he first took charge. In fact he even tried sell Henderson the best presser/engine in the league IMO. I think the 13/14 season and Hendersons work off the ball coupled with what Bayern and Dortmund did in the CL that season (or the season before) influenced a chnage in approach.

You can also add Can to that, Although there is some talk that he will play at DM (the controller role Stevie played). Whether he can step up and produce the goods technically it'll be interesting to see as he has all the other attributes, many of which 34year old Gerrard no longer had. This is also another position we could have problems with, particularly in terms of bringing the ball out from the back against high pressure sides.

He seems to like options in the AM/winger positions. I think he likes to have pace on at least one side of a 4-3-3 and with Sterling departing I can see it being Ibe or Markovic regularly one side, Firmino/Coutinho/Lallana on the other. Considering the latter 3 are probably the highest rated that may seem strange but with the possibility of Benteke often as a lone striker, that pace will be invaluable to the side. Of course Coutinho can drop into CM or Firmino can play off the striker in a diamond so Ibe starting doesn't mean either are dropped to the bench and are still likely to be 2 of our key players this season.

Up front we have options. We have the big target man in Benteke, we have the pacey finisher in Sturridge, we have Origi who offers that pace when Sturridge is out of action and Ings who's a goalscorer although the latter two still have much to learn.

We also have Firmino who can give us that no7 suarez/Beardsley link with the big lad Benteke or the quid lad Sturridge. Like the Aldo, Beardsley and Rush strike force years ago.

I think our squad is no excellently balanced and will be based around constant pressure, more than in seasons gone by. How soon our fitness is up to the level to maintain that pressure for 90mins is key to our season imo. It'll also of course depend on how many goals we can get out of a new striker force in their first season. Even at our worst we create chances as the stats from last season will show, whether we can finish them will determine our final position.

This is how I see us lining up mostly:

------------------Mignolet------------------
Clyne-----Skrtel----------Sakho----Moreno
------------------Controller----------------
---------Henderson-------Coutinho---------------
Ibe-------------------------------------Firmino
--------------------No.9-------------------------

Controller being Can/Lucas/Allen. No.9 being Ings/Benteke/Sturridge. Milner could also play CM regualrly with Cou or Firmino rotated/benched. Likely will depend on opposition.

---------------------Mignolet-------------------
Clyne------Skrtel-------------Sakho----Moreno
---------------------Controller--------------------
-----------Henderson----------Milner------------
----------------------Coutinho-------------------
-----------Firmino-------------No.9-------------

As Lucas mentioned when interviewed lately he sees Firmino as a different sort of player to Coutinho and talked about his ability as a forward. He has a bit of the Luis Suarez about him and will likely play off the front man a lot.

Again though the philosophy remains the same and it's looking like a pressing, high energy style of play. This style of play means plenty of turnovers which can often lead to plenty of chances/counter attacks for the opposition. The hope will be that with quicker, more mobile players around the CB's in Clyne, Moreno, Can etc we can cover that space quicker and not leave Skrtel and Sakho isolated and left in 1v1's as often as seasons gone by. The additions of Firmino and Milner this season are consistent with the pressing approach and the hope will also be that teams don't play through our press as easy. A big man like Can at DM can be pivotal here also at countering long balls over our press.

Looking forward to seeing if this is indeed how Rodgers sees it, just my prediction based on transfers/previous tactics etc.

[Severely]

A lot of people against the 4-3-3 are saying it's ineffective but we arguably saw our best period last season when Sterling was played up top with Lallana and Coutinho roaming behind in the space created. I distinctly remember a nearly unanimous agreement that the free role got the best out of both Coutinho and Lallana. Now, that was with a 3 man back line and wingbacks, but I'd argue that it seems Rodgers thinks that a version of that forward line with a much more effective striker in Benteke could be good, and honestly, I'd tend to agree. It also helps that there's a lot of room to tweak things with that sort of system. Slot in different players into this system and you can get vastly different results without ripping up the formation. For example, you could start a match with Coutinho and Firmino behind Benteke, and if that's not working out, sub in Ibe or Markovic for a more direct approach without affecting the roles of the players in the system.

[SerbianScouser]

A lot of people against the 4-3-3 are saying it's ineffective but we arguably saw our best period last season when Sterling was played up top with Lallana and Coutinho roaming behind in the space created. I distinctly remember a nearly unanimous agreement that the free role got the best out of both Coutinho and Lallana.

It is distinctly different as wingbacks were providing the width, now if our brazilians are flanking Benteke the only time they can come inside is if our fullbacks can push up and offer us width in the final third and we`ve seen with Clyne that he prefers to pick his moments to push forward rather than being aggressive about it as let`s say Zabaleta or D.Alves. I can somewhat get behind the idea of Firmino o either side of 433 because we want to have 2 goalscorers on the pitch upfront at all times but restricting Big Phil and isolating him wide is a horrible idea imo.

I mean how can anyone look at this performance for example and want him anywhere but central. Kid is on the brink of becoming one of the best no.8s around, one of the best playmakers and players in the league. Isolating him wide and restricting his influence is a truly horrible idea for me.

<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/tWKWhIcRq5E" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/tWKWhIcRq5E</a>

[ShayGuevara]

It doesn't suit our defence though.

The only time we've looked halfway decent is playing 3 at the back. And now we're moving back to a four, with the same personnel, hoping for a different result.

True. I thought you meant in terms of individuals getting game time.

I think with Can as the DM though we may see a back 3 off the ball like Barca with Busquests but agree we look a lot more solid with a back 3.

Funny enough we create just as much also or pretty close. POP backed up with chnace creation and defensive stats suggested a return to 4-3-3 (over 3-4-2-1) will be the kiss of death for Rodgers. Not sure If his opinion changed in light of new signings.

[L666KOP]

True. I thought you meant in terms of individuals getting game time.

I think with Can as the DM though we may see a back 3 off the ball like Barca with Busquests but agree we look a lot more solid with a back 3.

Funny enough we create just as much also or pretty close. POP backed up with chnace creation and defensive stats suggested a return to 4-3-3 (over 3-4-2-1) will be the kiss of death for Rodgers. Not sure If his opinion changed in light of new signings.

That as well mate.

We're massively overloaded from MF forward. We've over bought imo. I just don't see when our players will get game time. We've some very expensive players that will be playing CC, and early EL this coming season. ON one hand the competition can only be beneficial, on the other hand Brendan doesn't have the best record of implementing a pure meritocracy.

If he's going to a CB pairing then we absolutely must have a player at the base who is more than willing to drop inbetween and be focused enough to do nothing but shield that pairing. Anything else is going to be footballing suicide.

If it was me picking the side, and I was under orders to play with four at the back, then I'd insist on a double pivot. One to shield the CB's, and a pure DM covering Clyne/Moreno.

If he goes with a CB pairing, and to be fair it doesn't matter who plays because we've not seen a decent pair from the lot of them, and doesn't adequately protect them it's going to be a long hard season.
And one I fear won't end well.

[ShayGuevara]

That as well mate.

We're massively overloaded from MF forward. We've over bought imo. I just don't see when our players will get game time. We've some very expensive players that will be playing CC, and early EL this coming season. ON one hand the competition can only be beneficial, on the other hand Brendan doesn't have the best record of implementing a pure meritocracy.

If he's going to a CB pairing then we absolutely must have a player at the base who is more than willing to drop inbetween and be focused enough to do nothing but shield that pairing. Anything else is going to be footballing suicide.

If it was me picking the side, and I was under orders to play with four at the back, then I'd insist on a double pivot. One to shield the CB's, and a pure DM covering Clyne/Moreno.

If he goes with a CB pairing, and to be fair it doesn't matter who plays because we've not seen a decent pair from the lot of them, and doesn't adequately protect them it's going to be a long hard season.
And one I fear won't end well.

I would like to see us play the double pivot also, I remember Kenny playing it so effectively when he came back initially. If you put 4 top quality players ahead of it and have good full backs it's defensibely solid and is ruthless going forward as it gives you attack more freedom and fluidity. The Dutch system with Robben, Sneijder, Kuyt and RVP a prime example or Southamton last season although they lacked the top qualiy attackers to go that step further.

I think the hope this season is with more mobility and better players at the top end of the pitch off the ball our CB's won't be exposed as much. For what it's worth I don't fear seeing Sakho left 1v1, Skrtel and Lovren on the other hand you just fear for your life. Bring in another CB in the future like Sakho and maybe it's not so much of a problem. Especially if we improve our pressing game and surround them with more mobile players like we have.

[houkura]

.....
If he goes with a CB pairing, and to be fair it doesn't matter who plays because we've not seen a decent pair from the lot of them, and doesn't adequately protect them it's going to be a long hard season.
And one I fear won't end well.

Did you not think Skrtel Sahko looked good when we had the 6 away clean sheets and a run of 13 or so unbeaten games early in the year? I thought we finally had our defensive pairing. Maybe I'm remembering it differently.

[Redman78]

Did you not think Skrtel Sahko looked good when we had the 6 away clean sheets and a run of 13 or so unbeaten games early in the year? I thought we finally had our defensive pairing. Maybe I'm remembering it differently.

Weren't we playing 3 at the back during that run?