Author Topic: To DM Or Not To DM  (Read 100513 times)

Offline Johns_Barn

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #160 on: June 27, 2015, 06:00:10 pm »
Real Madrid were flying with Isco - Kroos - Modric - James/Bale as their midfield. Keeping plenty of cleansheets etc. I don't think a DM is needed for solidity if the whole team works hard pressing and tracking back. We all know this team ethic is something rodgers is looking to instill. Perhaps he thinks defending can be done as a team, and not necessarily with a dedicated DM. That would require a quite dramatic upturn in performances from our defenders however


....that or maybe the gaffa training them sufficiently?

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Online jepovic

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #161 on: June 27, 2015, 06:01:16 pm »
I'm not sure it was Lucas not being a favourite as Rodgers unwilling to leave Gerrard out of the team.
I'm really curious about this. So is Lucas, I'm sure. The one thing that could make him want to leave, I imagine, would be to become a true starter in the first eleven.

Offline clinical

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #162 on: June 27, 2015, 06:02:38 pm »
I know we've signed milner which I'm happy about but if we had

       Carvalho
Can              Henderson

For the next 5 years I'd be over the moon.
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Offline Johns_Barn

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #163 on: June 27, 2015, 06:38:32 pm »
Kranevitter  :wave

Offline Shady Craig

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #164 on: June 27, 2015, 06:59:30 pm »
Can't get past the Stoke performance when thinking about going into the season without a new option at DM. Everyone played bad but Lucas was especially shocking in that game.

Can could and should be the answer, we need someone in there who can control the games that's for sure.

Offline Kopenhagen

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #165 on: June 27, 2015, 07:52:11 pm »
"There is no final victory, just as there is no final defeat. There is just the same battle to be fought over and over again."

Offline clinical

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #166 on: June 27, 2015, 08:05:38 pm »
We've got it so right so far in getting clyne firmino and to a degree milner. But not getting a DM and That villa striker is going to hurt usus massively
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Offline G1 Jockey 4(betfair)

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #167 on: June 28, 2015, 05:22:38 pm »
not many good enough dms though.
think lucas and hendo as a duo should work but as long as it is a duo and not a silly pivot system.

not sure people should really try comparing real madrids system to ours without thinking properly.
they have a world class attack...we dont.

it would naturally pay for them to open up a game by having a midfield who were weak defensively because their attack would benefit from the space.
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Offline na fir dearg

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #168 on: June 28, 2015, 05:40:53 pm »
Confident prediction.
If Rodgers does not sign a reputable Defensive Midfield player he will not improve results sufficiently to retain his job beyond the next season and may even be lucky to make it beyond Christmas.
It has been a glaring weakness now for the entire period of Rodgers stewardship,which with th exception of signing Can he has consistently not addressed.
With the possible signinging of a Right Back, Rodgers may be hoping that Can may indeed may be released from a defensive role to be employed in mid-field this season, however this may not be enough to really tighten up our non-competitive mid-field.

yeah for me its an area that still needs to be addressed. Rodgers has shown signs of pragmatism so far at Liverpool so hoping he will show a bit more and get in, not necessarily a destroyer, but a defensive minded midfielder who is good on the ball and strong.

Lucas does the job but can be prone to injury, Can is good on the ball but sure on his ability to read the game or his positioning - Allen gets overran too easily, Henderson for me is wasted if not in an attacking role

Maybe Milner is the plan? Im not sure he would have ever played that role before but it could be worth a shot

Offline slipslidin82

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #169 on: June 28, 2015, 06:21:42 pm »
I think it's not just a question of buying one great DM, but more about the overall balance between naturally attack-minded and naturally defence-minded midfield players in the squad. That doesn't necessarily mean only more DMs, but even central midfielders or wide players who are also more instinctively defensive.

Attack:

Henderson
Coutinho
Firmino
Ibe
Sterling
Markovic
Lallana

Somewhere in the middle:

Can
Milner
Allen

Defence:

Lucas
Absolutely crucial, if we blow this one we're done as a top team, this is an unbelievable chance to return to our perch, we must be patient. 

Offline Packalacky

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #170 on: June 28, 2015, 06:25:29 pm »
We've got it so right so far in getting clyne firmino and to a degree milner. But not getting a DM and That villa striker is going to hurt usus massively

Think we'd be better off not actually buying Benteke. The change of style to suit him will end up hurting us if we do buy him.

Offline clinical

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #171 on: June 29, 2015, 10:42:23 am »
Think we'd be better off not actually buying Benteke. The change of style to suit him will end up hurting us if we do buy him.

Well we need a striker and a controlling DM. Unless Can can boss games at the age of 21 on his own.


I think there's not a great deal in quality difference between Sterling (when on form) and Firmino, although I do believe Firmino is slightly better.

We've improved but it's not enough, no where near enough yet.

Milner and Clyne will improve us no doubt about that, but it's simply not enough if we want to break into the top 4. Benteke is just wrong, but Rodgers wants him so we just have to live with it I guess. But are Benteke clyne and milner enough to get us back into that top 4? Not for me.

maybe if we concede less. But it looks like we're yet again going to ignore the DM issue and our defence issue, I include Mignolet in that. A good goalkeeper when on form, but if he has a wobble this year we have to put Bogdan in goal.

So after Benteke or whoever we sign imo we need a DM and a keeper. Also pray for Sakho to stay fit otherwise we'll see the shambles of a pairing that is Skrtel and Lovren who just don't suit each other. 
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Offline Jayo10

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #172 on: June 29, 2015, 01:49:54 pm »
Ruben Neves or William Carvalho please.

We most certainly need a defensive minded midfielder and to be of the opinion that such a player will disrupt our attacking fluidity (as Rodgers seems to be) is misguided in the extreme.

We need a player who has the IQ and natural attributes that make him extremely comfortable putting out fires in front of our defence, being able to anticipate and counteract danger in the attacking third of opposition patterns of play, more or less being able to snuff out threats that drop between the lines. Someone who specialises in knowing exactly where to sit positionally when teams run at us.

We are a decent side with the ball and all of the evidence shows we do alot of our preparation on the basis of us being in possession. Its Rodgers positive outlook which is refreshing, and is the opposite of that of Mourinho or Benitez who have usually set up their sides to be efficient and compact and knitted together in terms of organisation when they don't have the ball.

The key is to find the balance.

Rodgers is never going to employ an out and out defensive midfielder as it leaves him one short in an attacking sense. But when you play better sides than us at home and in Europe, you simply need to adjust your tactics to stifle more quality opponents. Better sides than us do this, i.e Chelsea's use of Matic, Busquets at Barcelona away from home etc...

Offline Packalacky

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #173 on: June 29, 2015, 01:58:33 pm »
Ruben Neves or William Carvalho please.

We most certainly need a defensive minded midfielder and to be of the opinion that such a player will disrupt our attacking fluidity (as Rodgers seems to be) is misguided in the extreme.

We need a player who has the IQ and natural attributes that make him extremely comfortable putting out fires in front of our defence, being able to anticipate and counteract danger in the attacking third of opposition patterns of play, more or less being able to snuff out threats that drop between the lines. Someone who specialises in knowing exactly where to sit positionally when teams run at us.

We are a decent side with the ball and all of the evidence shows we do alot of our preparation on the basis of us being in possession. Its Rodgers positive outlook which is refreshing, and is the opposite of that of Mourinho or Benitez who have usually set up their sides to be efficient and compact and knitted together in terms of organisation when they don't have the ball.

The key is to find the balance.

Rodgers is never going to employ an out and out defensive midfielder as it leaves him one short in an attacking sense. But when you play better sides than us at home and in Europe, you simply need to adjust your tactics to stifle more quality opponents. Better sides than us do this, i.e Chelsea's use of Matic, Busquets at Barcelona away from home etc...

Carvalho looks like a brilliant player. Think he would cost a fortune to get though, can't imagine it being much less that what Sterling will go for.

Offline penga

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #174 on: June 29, 2015, 01:59:59 pm »
A perfect CDM if there was one for us would be Imbula, 22 years old has physique, speed and agility. He can carry the ball, receive in tight space, dribble, etc better than Allen or Lucas which would make him ideal for Rodgers. Completed over 3 dribbles per game with 75% success rate which is amazing. He can also pass just as well as those guys without having watched him much (90% pass accuracy and better or equal key passes). Bonus is he is a bit of a long shot threat as well. His defensive positioning is improving.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6EuZGUUsFSk

It is a shame we are not linked and I don't know why, when people like Schneiderlin have been linked in the past. He is named the next in line from Matuidi and Pogba - alongside Kondogbia by the France coach. Currently Porto and Southampton (and Inter) circling for him which says it all, costs under 20million, could be loaned for 1 year for a small fee as well apparently. Get him before he is snapped up and his price rises to megabucks. Reports are he is close to Porto now :(

Offline clinical

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #175 on: June 29, 2015, 04:09:27 pm »
Imbula never thought about him. Yeah he'd be ideal

Honestly can't quite get why we aren't signing a DM when its been obvious we've needed one for a good while now
« Last Edit: June 29, 2015, 04:12:57 pm by clinical »
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Offline arab88

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #176 on: June 29, 2015, 05:36:01 pm »
Imbula would be a fantastic signing...same if we get a player like Illaramendi who's a different kind of player but who's a natural DM...

A DM , a world class striker like Higuain,and a centre back and we can go compete for real...

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #177 on: June 29, 2015, 05:53:29 pm »
Confident prediction.
If Rodgers does not sign a reputable Defensive Midfield player he will not improve results sufficiently to retain his job beyond the next season and may even be lucky to make it beyond Christmas.
It has been a glaring weakness now for the entire period of Rodgers stewardship,which with th exception of signing Can he has consistently not addressed.
With the possible signinging of a Right Back, Rodgers may be hoping that Can may indeed may be released from a defensive role to be employed in mid-field this season, however this may not be enough to really tighten up our non-competitive mid-field.

As exciting and all as some of the new signings have been, You have to worry about our pretty gruesome opening set of fixtures. If things don't gel immediately, Brendan could be fired by the end of october. Our home fixtures aren't so bad, but our away fixtures in order are Stoke, Arsenal, man utd, everton, tottenham, chelsea and Man city. I can't quite remember off hand how we did in these games last season, but I suspect that something really traumatic happened in most of them.

I think it is time for people put the idea of a fully fit Lucas rampaging around the back of the midfleld like some Whelan of old away, in a box, along with idle dreams of unicorns, care bears, and a fully fit Daniel Sturridge. Lucas has been a great servant to the club, has shown great attitude and determination, and seems like an all round decent lad. However it does have to be remembered that the teams he is such an important part of are among the defensively worst in the history of liverpool ever since the arrival of bill shankly. The last three seasons are in the top 10 as regards goals conceded, and the 2010-11 season is also in there as well. The figure for 2011-12 isn't quite so high, but it does also include the worst 20 game run of league results since before Shankly.

Lucas may have been an important player for us in that time, but It has to be borne in mind that he was also the best of a bad lot. There is a slight tendency to confuse relative quality, with absolute quality. That probably sounds harsh, but we've been conceding an average of 45 league goals a season for the last five years. And that's just shameful. (lucas should take less of the blame than all the others, but that's a separate issue to whether or not he is the future for us in that position).

It's difficult to follow this idea that the manager doesn't believe, or seem to want a screening defensive midfielder. In large part because I find it so difficult to be able to pin down exactly what the manager does believe. what he says in press conferences, or on the training ground doesn't seem to translate very well to the pitch, certainly when it comes to defending.  From close observation it would seem that he believes in really small players, it would seem that he believes in not marking at set pieces,  He doesn't seem to believe in having a midfielder standing in front of the defence to hinder the opposition. He seems to believe in conceding on average 4 goals in every three games. and it seems like he believes in keeping clean sheets against teams that aren't that strong, and conceding on average two goals against everyone else.

when he was in charge of reading and Watford he believed in 9 men behind the ball, two defensive midfielders, practicing set pieces, resting on the ball, quick transitions and counter attacking and basically copying everything jose mourinho did at chelsea, right down to using portuguese phrases in training. two years at swansea and he doesn't believe in any of that at all. It would seem that his core beliefs can potentially change at the drop of a hat, so hopefully this one can change too.

As with the post I quoted, unless he starts to believe in the usefulness of a defensive midfield shield, then we may quickly wind up no longer be believing in him.  I nearly cried when I heard that Geoffrey Kongdogbia signed for Inter milan, a club so far from european football that they may as well be in South America, and so financially screwed that they would consider looking for investors in Greece. There are plenty of players out there that could do at least a decent job in that position for us. I'd just love to see us make an effort to buy one at some point, If only to make me feel better. I'll even make do with a Daily star link, but even they seem to consider it too outlandish to link us with a DM.

Offline penga

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #178 on: June 30, 2015, 02:14:14 am »
Lucas is apparently on the transfer list...I don't like it. Would rather let go of Allen if we were to get rid of a midfielder before him but won't happen. Lucas helped turn around our season when we were in this shit plus he helps the Brazilians settle.

Offline DanA

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #179 on: June 30, 2015, 03:00:16 am »
Imbula would be a fantastic signing...same if we get a player like Illaramendi who's a different kind of player but who's a natural DM...

A DM , a world class striker like Higuain,and a centre back and we can go compete for real...

Really like the look of Imbula. Reminds me of a young Gerrard with his rangy slightly hunched style of play. He can strike a ball from long distance as well.
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Offline ThePoolMan

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #180 on: June 30, 2015, 03:41:59 am »
Imbula appears to be off to Porto. After basically teaching Can and his fellow germsn u-21s a lesson in the semis, Carvalho really seems to be the leading candidate for a still yoing DM who can do it all in the midfield. Instead of a passmeister like illarimendi, a more athletic midfield controller like carvalho seems to be preferable for the premiership. Of course he will cost 37m is his release clause is invoked but perhaps a deal can be struck. If sterling leaves the funds wil be available and we can finally sort out one of the most glaring gaps in our team. However we don't seem to be looking to sign him at all if the scuttlebutt is any indication...
« Last Edit: June 30, 2015, 03:49:02 am by ThePoolMan »

Offline arab88

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #181 on: June 30, 2015, 03:48:09 am »

Imbula appears to be off to Porto. After basically teaching Can and his fellow germsn u-21s a lesson in the semis, Carvalho really seems to be the leading candidate for a still yoing DM who can do it all in the midfield. Instead of a passmeister like illarimendi, a more athletic midfield controller like carvalho seems to be preferable for the premiership. Of course he will cost 37m is his release clause is invoked but perhaps a deal can be struck. If sterling leaves the funds wil be available and we can finally sort out one I the most glaring gaps in our team.

I totally agree with you...William Carvalho would be  just perfect for us...I hope Brendan understood the importance of playing a natural DM...
If we get a world class striker and a DM like Carvalho,I would be extremely happy. A centre back if we have some extra money left :-) and we go play for the first place.

Offline Coolie High

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #182 on: June 30, 2015, 03:54:49 am »
Think Can eradicates any hope of Carvalho.

Would be good if we didn't have Can, but with Lucas Can and Allen is enough cover in that position.

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #183 on: June 30, 2015, 05:01:03 am »
I wouldn't go near Cavalho. He's the Berbatov of DM's, that kind of work ethic off the ball will get murdered in the Premier League. I appreciate that he's a bit laconic and that makes his really calm on the ball and a good decision maker but fuck me, he doesn't even jog back into position, he grind to a halt and walks. Watch him play next game, he is ridiculously slack on the pitch.
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Offline ThePoolMan

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #184 on: June 30, 2015, 06:26:40 am »
http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/jun/29/sweden-portugal-under-21-championship-final-how-players-rate

"William Carvalho, defensive midfield, Sporting: a colossus at the base of midfield and, along with Bernardo Silva, the star of the tournament. Physically imposing but has an easy, laconic style that belies the fact that he covered more ground than any other player in the group stages. Rating 9/10"

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #185 on: June 30, 2015, 09:55:17 am »
I wouldn't go near Cavalho. He's the Berbatov of DM's, that kind of work ethic off the ball will get murdered in the Premier League. I appreciate that he's a bit laconic and that makes his really calm on the ball and a good decision maker but fuck me, he doesn't even jog back into position, he grind to a halt and walks. Watch him play next game, he is ridiculously slack on the pitch.

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #186 on: June 30, 2015, 11:25:01 am »
also he's a jorge mendes player. we already have a Mino Raiola player, how desperate are we to be robbed?

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #187 on: June 30, 2015, 02:13:29 pm »
"I think it is time for people put the idea of a fully fit Lucas rampaging around the back of the midfleld like some Whelan of old away, in a box, along with idle dreams of unicorns, care bears, and a fully fit Daniel Sturridge. Lucas has been a great servant to the club, has shown great attitude and determination, and seems like an all round decent lad. However it does have to be remembered that the teams he is such an important part of are among the defensively worst in the history of liverpool ever since the arrival of bill shankly. The last three seasons are in the top 10 as regards goals conceded, and the 2010-11 season is also in there as well. The figure for 2011-12 isn't quite so high, but it does also include the worst 20 game run of league results since before Shankly. "


think to be honest having gerarrd patrolling deep was more of an issue to letting goals in than nay other player.

only decent spell in the last 3 years defensively was this season when we went 3-4-3 with lucas and hendo.
for the first time in a while i thought we had found a sensible solution to stopping teams getting at us.

id say our issues are simply down to our manager and his approach
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Offline kcbworth

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #188 on: June 30, 2015, 04:25:47 pm »
I'm sure it's already been mentioned in this thread, but this post-Gerrard era will redefine the way we play. We may finally get some balance in CM - whatever that looks like

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #189 on: June 30, 2015, 04:28:55 pm »
I'm sure it's already been mentioned in this thread, but this post-Gerrard era will redefine the way we play. We may finally get some balance in CM - whatever that looks like

True as we had feck all balance in SG's heyday, which Alonso & Mascherano just agreed with  ::)
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Offline G1 Jockey 4(betfair)

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #190 on: June 30, 2015, 05:55:13 pm »
I'm sure it's already been mentioned in this thread, but this post-Gerrard era will redefine the way we play. We may finally get some balance in CM - whatever that looks like

hope so.

thought we got it for a spell last season then the main man got injured.
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Offline arab88

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #191 on: June 30, 2015, 07:37:53 pm »

http://www.theguardian.com/football/2015/jun/29/sweden-portugal-under-21-championship-final-how-players-rate

"William Carvalho, defensive midfield, Sporting: a colossus at the base of midfield and, along with Bernardo Silva, the star of the tournament. Physically imposing but has an easy, laconic style that belies the fact that he covered more ground than any other player in the group stages. Rating 9/10"

A future world class player...if we get him ,we would improve immensely...he is the lacking "piece" in our midfield without any doubt..we have many CM,many attacking midfielders..but only one DM who's also injury prone...

We need Carvalho.

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #192 on: June 30, 2015, 09:46:26 pm »
You do realize that if we wrongly sell Lucas we won't be going after carvalho we'll be after delph if his £10m release clause is true . will be praying Lucas stays
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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #193 on: June 30, 2015, 11:23:20 pm »
Carvalho had a mare tonight (U21 european final), not just by missing the last penalty. Sloppy passing, poor positional play. He runs a lot, but not very fast. I'm sure he can become a great player, but he's by no means an instant improvement on Lucas. Also shows none of Can's leadership. Can is also 2 years younger.

Illori also looked so-so, by the way.

The best player on the pitch was Sweden's DM, Oscar Lewicki. A real Mascherano-type who bossed Portugal's midfield.
Edit: Apparently just selected as the best player of the whole championship.


Offline Coolie High

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #194 on: July 1, 2015, 02:24:42 am »
Ilori looked good, hasn't conceded a goal in any of his appearances, a lot better than so-so.

Offline keyo

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #195 on: July 2, 2015, 01:29:47 pm »
I reckon anyone who had a good euro under 21 tournament, we should go out and buy at any price.  tournament buys always work out great for us.  and as they are all younger, and the tournament not so massive, the risk is so much less.....
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Offline Reds and Revs

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #196 on: July 3, 2015, 05:38:16 pm »
I think more about the attributes needed:

1) if the wing backs are to bomb on and the DM is dropping into the center, he needs good defensive abilities and the intelligence to marshall a back three against potentially higher number counter

2) speed - premiere need almost regardless of position, but certainly against counter teams

3) the ability to receive, turn and pass forward under pressure.

4) bonus - ability to pass mid/long range to feet, and spray the ball wide to change the field

I don't think we need a destroyer, and I don't think a Pirlo playmaker works unless you have an  Italian set of defenders to compensate for questionable defensive idea. What we do need is a player like Lucas in his prime before his injuries. If others don't rate that, better for us.

The reason we have a squad, aside from injuries, is to allow us to defend and attack others. Just as we need Llallana and others to attack a "parking the bus" tactic. We need a "playing DM" - defense first but with ball skills Rodgers rates.

Offline Popcorn

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #197 on: July 3, 2015, 09:35:15 pm »
We aren't getting the DM are we :(

Consistently lightweight in the middle.

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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #198 on: July 3, 2015, 09:38:56 pm »
to DM is the answer... with a DM we can play with two at the back without fucking it up defensively
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Re: To DM Or Not To DM
« Reply #199 on: July 16, 2015, 01:52:43 pm »
Firmino, Benteke, Inggs etc. It looks now as though we have spent our lot this season, but all will come to naught!

Until we address the DM issue and frailties in central defence we are effectively attempting to build skyscrapers on foundations of jelly!