Author Topic: Round Table, Liverpool 1-2 Crystal Palace - Klopp's first defeat at LFC  (Read 8449 times)

Offline -Daws-

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‘In that moment, I felt very alone’.

We’ve all seen, heard or read the quote for our esteemed manager. Sometimes I wonder whether some of our supporters ever really take any notice of the lyrics we bellow before and at the end (although I’m assuming they miss this rendition) of each game; of the song we all hold so deep in our hearts. The storm has been and passed, as we walk together towards the light led by our charismatic German, and yet some still feel the need release their grasp and leave him and his players alone to fight the last 10 minutes. Why? It doesn’t’ stop at the ground either. The internet has granted the power for each individual to voice their opinions that they wretch from the depths of their baleful minds and the bile flows through their keyboards for the world to read. This happens everywhere; not just on RAWK (social media for example is, far more excruciating) and I can’t help but ponder why people deem it necessary or reasonable to behave in such a way. I get the feeling many of the more grounded supporters and even Klopp himself, are worried about the mentality of this fan, more so than that of the players.

But enough about the peripherals, let’s talk football.

 Jurgen Klopp’s first defeat as manager did not come without a somewhat spirited and decent performance, where the quality in each penalty area came to define the end result and cause a mini-mass hysteria on message boards all over the globe. There were many positives and negatives, some tactical toing and throwing, moments of quality, moments of incompetence, and for the neutral what transpired to be a very entertaining end to end game where the underdogs got to reap the rewards for their sterling work-ethic and discipline. Some have hyped Crystal Palace up to sound like South London’s Real Madrid equivalents, whilst others determine that they’re ‘fuckin’ shite, like’. As usual, the truth falls somewhere between these two extremist views. Palace are a good side, a top half of the table side, who play particularly well away from home due to their pacey, strong wide men. Zaha and Bolasie were very good yesterday, it has to be said.

Before performance analysis, let’s contemplate the result. Klopp’s first loss at the 7th time of asking,  in itself is a decent stat for a new manager, especially considering some tough games against the Champions, hundreds of miles away in Russia to Rubin, a plucky Bournemouth side and a direct rival in Tottenham. Yes its disappointing, but let us consider this – when you learn most about people is when they are suffering times of adversity. This will have taught Klopp a lot more about his players than he knew previously. We had to lose at some point, and given how important the midweek game was if I had to choose which way round the results were to occur on Wednesday night, I’d have chosen this scenario. It’s really not that bad. To come before the international break is also somewhat of a blessing, unusually, because it now gives our astute coach and his staff the opportunity to pull apart what has gone wrong, where we need to improve and how we are going to do it, without the pressure of preparing for the next game. It’s been a ridiculously hectic start to the Klopp campaign, with nobody afforded a second to catch their breath thus far. We have now experienced every result and have time to reflect, reiterate and respond. It’ll be good for everyone, including many a bell-whiff outside of the club, if inside the ground or logged into an LFC forum…

So performances? Key moments?

Well let’s be honest, Palace came at us from the off and did not give us an inch for the first 15 minutes. They caught us cold, startled in the headlights of two fucking steam trains tearing up our flanks and testing our fullbacks early. Relentless pressing restricted our ability to settle on the ball and the goal came about for just this reason, and it had been coming. We had managed for one of the first times in the game to play out from the back and Can received the ball on the edge of the centre circle. Under some pressure, he decided to play a short pass to Lucas which was so telegraphed MI5 got a copy first. Of course it was intercepted, as it always would be, and the ball broke. One could decipher that our backline at this point was a little slow to push out, and as a result the centre halves did no deal with it. Instead Moreno stepped inside and demonstrated his crippling one footedness with a half attempted clearance/pass having tried to open his body up to use the inside of his left foot. Was he unlucky that the ricochet bounced off the man and into the path of his winger he’d left unattended? Yes. Should he have just put his right foot through it and avoided the opportunity altogether? Yes.

So after Can’s initial error in the first phase of the goal, Moreno has to take some responsibility for making a poor decision and not trusting his weaker foot. However, the calamity doesn’t halt here. Having managed to pull the ball back across Moreno and Sakho, it somewhat fortunately lands at the feet of Can who has rushed back in attempt to atone for his previous mistake. Like Moreno, Can, in an even more perilous position, also decides to open his body up and try to cushion a pass to Lucas, who is changing direction at the time, which was fucking ridiculous, really. In that position you don’t try and play out. Admittedly the ball arrived sharply at Emre’s feet but even if he didn’t have the time to swing his left foot, he should just be making solid contact with the ball on the right laces to force the ball away from danger. Another poor choice meant that Bolasie picked up the ball, took a touch and slotted it in. It’s also concerning that nobody stepped into Bolasies face at this point and we continued to stand off. Despite Klopps good work and some major improvement, old habits are dying hard and we are still overplaying and not shutting down space ferociously enough in and around our 18 yard box.

Before they scored Palaces intent had been clear. Press high, press hard, force mistakes, and look to play the ball high towards our fullbacks who were always going to struggle physically against their wingers. They did this very well, as Cabaye influenced the game deepest of the attacking press (they were basically employing a 424, one of the strongest formations to press high up the pitch, second to maybe the 343). Skrtel and Sakho often found themselves quite wide supporting the full backs with Lucas intelligently slipping in to try and compact the middle whilst they covered. A chain of poor decisions led to their goal as described above. Once they had scored, palace reverted to the more conventional  433 and dropped into a lower block. They would have needed to anyway, because their initial pressure was unsustainable and Pardew’s plan worked a treat to get them on the front foot before ‘resting’ off the ball.

So this is when things get better. For the next 20 minutes or so we began to dominate the ball and emphasis our grip on the game. Coutinho saw more of it, Benteke got more touches and Ibe was full of poise and buoyancy, running at defenders, committing them and beating them. Yes his decision making still leaves something to be desired but that comes with the territory of playing a 19 year old. On the other hand he is fearless, physical, determined to make an impression and influence the game. He was our best and most threating player on the day, providing a brilliantly timed key pass to take three Palace players out the game and put Clyne in a wonderful position. Clyne pulled it back, Lallana’s flick taking it off the foot of our big Belgian and into the path of our little Brazilian who executed the finish expertly. Things were looking up; we had our goal and restored equality.  We were the team with the momentum, we had been looking sharper in the turnovers, quicker to the 2nd ball, and despite Sakho going off we were comfortable with the ball and had, for the time being, restricted Palaces midfield and starved Zaha and Bolasie of the ball. The reward was the aforementioned goal, and we went in at HT deservedly level after a shaky first 15 minutes.

That second half!

The second half is a tough one to analyse, purely because it was helter-skelter. Delightfully entertaining for the casual observer, as the ball glided end to end, at pace and with precision. Players brushing others off the ball, turning out of gaps, spreading long diagonal passes into space and some lovely ½ touch counter attacking football from both sides. Moments turned scrappy, there were chances, clear-cut chances, for both sides coming from all angles and asking different questions of the forwards. Unfortunately, for both us and the casual spectator, the forwards were lacking answers as both Benteke and Sako missed fantastic opportunities within a minute or so of each other. The game had well and truly opened up, and both coaches decided to try and cease the initiative. Can, who had a pretty poor evening, often holding onto the ball too long and taking too many touches, made way for Firmino, and Sako, who had worked relentlessly hard, was replaced by a just-fit Connor Wickham for the Londoners. Some would argue this tilted the balance, and as Pardew opted for a like for like switch with fresh legs, Klopp decided to try and open Palace up with the silky touch and awareness of our latest Brazilian import.

Now whether the change turned the tide is hard to tell. Despite their initial flurry we had worked hard for the last hour or so, and had only had one day to prepare in contrast to Palace’s week, but if Klopp has no room for excuses nor should we. Somewhat inevitably, despite the chances, despite the substitutions and changes of formation, the game was decided at a set peace. Without wanting to delve too deep into our set piece defending, zonal marking is fine as long as the players are occupying and attacking areas where the ball is likely to fall and where their threats are. We set up far too close to the front stick when the threat was clearly at the back. Dann got his header away, Mignolet should have held it, he didn’t, we didn’t react, but the only Liverpudlian on the pitch did. It was an incredibly poor error from Mignolet, who had looked shaky previously and made a ridiculous decision to pass to Sakho moments after he’d arrived back on the pitch from what was clearly a painful injury. Simon really needs to up his game, because Bogdan has looked decent whilst he continues to cause problems. He’s not solely to blame as we were set up wrong, but you expect your ‘keeper to gobble that up, at least push it wide; instead he gifted Dann a second bite at the cherry, and he duly obliged. It must be noted, Palace were excellent in their box, Delany in particular with a heroic display. You have to give them credit.

After a little huff and puff to try and salvage a result but we walk away from Palace again with nothing. Plenty of positives, with Lucas playing and captaining the side well, Coutinho scoring again, Ibe looking extremely dangerous and more precious Premier league minutes for Firmino. Sakho looking to have avoided any severe damage to his ACL despite how painful the fall looked, and Benteke getting on the end of chances which you know soon he’ll start to take. A mention for Lovren too, who did very well coming in for Sakho.

The more negative questions posed are that over Mignolets ability. Should he keep his place?
Can Moreno be coached out of these mistakes?
Is Can a midfielder when he always almost wants at least 2 touches? Will Henderson replace him as soon as available?
Will Lallana start to reap the rewards for his efforts and contribute with a few more goals?
Is Bentekes finishing something to be concerned about or are we glad he’s finally getting the chances?
Are we seeing a return to form with Lovren in a very timely manner given Sakho’s knock?
What will Klopp do to try and strengthen our weaknesses?

Over to you Rawkites – Oh, and remember boss, You’ll Never Walk Alone, even if some others choose to themselves.  :wave
It's hard enough remembering my opinions without remembering my reasons for them.

Offline SerbianScouser

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Re: Round Table, Liverpool 1-2 Crystal Palace - Klopp's first defeat at LFC
« Reply #1 on: November 9, 2015, 11:14:26 pm »
The more negative questions posed are that over Mignolets ability. Should he keep his place?

Personally I`m done with him for some time now and at this point in time I`m not interested in discussing his skill-set as I believe he doesn`t have the mentality to play for Lfc or any big club for that matter. He`s simply too nice of a guy and there`s nothing about him that tells me he`s a winner or somebody willing to take responsibility in the box. That one incident at the derby told me almost everything I need to know about him mentality wise. Even though the ball was high in the air for ages he refused to claim it and Skrtel ended up scrambling for the ball and managed to clear it just, Skrtel then went berserk and started screaming at Mignolet and berating him all the while Mig was like ignoring him and pretending it`s not happening. I mean can you imagine the reaction any CB would get if they did that to Reina, Schmeichel or Grobelaar? Mignolet is the opposite of these people who are leaders of men and for me we have to get somebody in here with right mentality as Mignolet had all the time in the world to prove if he`s good enough for us.

Can Moreno be coached out of these mistakes?

I think he can improve defensively and he will though it`s difficult to say that he has genuine defensive instincts in him. Hopefully Klopp will put more pressure on him to learn from his mistakes.

Is Can a midfielder when he always almost wants at least 2 touches? Will Henderson replace him as soon as available?

For me he`s not a midfielder as he doesn`t have the ability to turn on the ball and like you said he needs too many touches to control the ball. I think he`s been picked for that CM spot more due to circumstances as I think Hendo takes his place. However he`s a young player and I like the idea of having him as a squad player as he has a lot to offer with all the power and physicality. One for the future , it`s just unfortunate that he can`t hone his skills next to some established and experienced central midfielders he could learn a lot from.

Will Lallana start to reap the rewards for his efforts and contribute with a few more goals?

Lallana is one of my biggest gripes at the moment. This is his second season and with 0 goals and 1 assist in 8 games so far he flatters to deceive. We need more from him. His relationship with the ball is gorgeous and work-rate is admirable but he`s not making the difference for us on the  pitch as such. If we`re gonna use a lone striker system it is essential to have at least one of those 3 guys with proper striker instincts to offer proper goal threat and support to our no.9. Lallana simply doesn`t have that killer instinct to take chances away in the box and punish teams though it `s probably unfair if we asked him to be that player when he`s more about facilitating better players rather than being one. Fact of the matter is that we need an Alexis type of player behind the lone striker to make it all work. Hopefully Firmino will turn out to be that player.

Is Bentekes finishing something to be concerned about or are we glad he’s finally getting the chances?

I`m not concerned about his finishing, for me he showed he`s clinical; what I`d question though is the quality of chances we provide for him. He had 2-3 situations on Sunday but for me none of those was truly clear cut and that`s where the quality of our attacking in the final third comes to play. Penetration and patterns of play in the final third are two areas potential improvement of which will see us create better chances for him in the box imo.

Are we seeing a return to form with Lovren in a very timely manner given Sakho’s knock?

With Lovren it`s all about can we protect him from 1v1 against good, pacy dribblers. Unfortunately we can`t give him that protection 90 mins every game but overall I see a qualitative improvement with our defensive organization since Klopp took over so I`m confident he can be a good cover till Sakho gets back because as we`ve seen early this season our football without a single ball playing CB is something utterly dreadful to watch.


What will Klopp do to try and strengthen our weaknesses?

We need a `Coutinho-Sturridge` level of January transfer window again to propel us onto the next level again. Two signings in whichever areas we can improve upon the most will allow us to really push on in the second part of the season. It`s crucial of course we get them right and address our most urgent needs atm. Our overall squad is really , really good imo and addressing the lack of balance here and there will do wonders for us.

Offline slimbo

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Re: Round Table, Liverpool 1-2 Crystal Palace - Klopp's first defeat at LFC
« Reply #2 on: November 10, 2015, 12:02:07 am »
It certainly was entertaining and a lot to be positive about. I wasn't surprised that Firmino came on but was surprised that he replaced Can. Ballsy move from Klopp and one which I liked. "Let's go for the win". Can wasn't having a particularly good game anyway. Unfortunately it didn't work out but I don't think it was due to tactics but poor finishing and still a degree of unprofessional decisions. Klopp addressed this in his post match conference when he mentioned decision making when the pulse is at 180bpm. I am really impressed with the way he addresses the issues clearly and not just speaking professional waffle. His comments about the team taking responsibility for people leaving early was very insightful. Basically saying the reason they have left early is because the team hasn't given them a belief that the team will get anything more from the game. I like how he is asking the players to play for the fans and the club.

I think a big issue for us at the moment is injuries and general depth of players with some quality. Moreno was mentioned earlier. He has some poor habits to his game which need to be addressed. His petulance for rash tackling and pushing players in defence and not using his brain when in the final third (decisions at 180bpm) are things that have to change. The good news is they can be and he is young. Sometimes though that can be helped along by a stint on the bench while your learning. The bad news is we don't have an able replacement and the team suffers while you learn. I think Can comes into this category also, Clyne's decision to shoot from an impossible position with 5min to go when we are chasing the game, it's little things like these that give away how much further we still have to go.

I was a little shocked with Bentekes' game. He had enough chances to put the game away and to me he looked a little sluggish or low on confidence. Not sure whether he is carrying an injury or maybe just tired but mentally he didn't appear to be sharp. Again, I think these are the things Klopp is referring to in his conferences. Players need to take responsibility for their mental state and the decisions they make. It's in their hands. Mignolet fits right into this category.

Lovren will come in for Sakho and it will be interesting. I know he's had some pretty bad performances but I still think some of the issues could be to do with the combination of him and Skyrtl. I wouldn't mind seeing him alongside Sakho at some point in the season and see how it compares. Either way we don't have much choice.

Amazingly we still have some gaps that need to be filled. We desperately need some more depth but with real quality. Confounding after all the money we've spent. It's been said Klopp will be supported by the owners. Let's hope we can get things right on the transfer front. I'm actually confident we will do better with BR gone. Anyone who doesn't rate Lucas or Sakho should draw concern when when it comes to choosing new players. Hopefully the Klopp name will be a strong attraction for some quality names.


Offline Flinstone

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Re: Round Table, Liverpool 1-2 Crystal Palace - Klopp's first defeat at LFC
« Reply #3 on: November 10, 2015, 12:05:58 am »
Emre Can is an interesting player with loads of talent for sure but the question of where he plays is a riddle. He clearly doesn't have the attacking output to play near the front line. I do think he dithers a lot in midfield and there are players who have developed the specific skill-set to play there who are younger with a higher roof (one in our squad and one we are linked to). Unless his learning trajectory in the centre drastically shoots upwards he's going to get displaced from there sooner rather than later.

He's going to have to cut out a lot of the brain-farts to play at CB and I'm not really sure he'll make it there. He carries the ball towards the other half like a battering ram, so where do we need that? RB or LB maybe?

I really don't know how it goes with him, wouldn't be surprised if he heads back to Germany after a couple of years.

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Offline soxfan

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Re: Round Table, Liverpool 1-2 Crystal Palace - Klopp's first defeat at LFC
« Reply #4 on: November 10, 2015, 12:28:54 am »
‘In that moment, I felt very alone’.
Forget the score. Forget the loss. Forget the mistakes.

The above quote is the single most important thing to come out of this match.

Whether Jurgen Klopp falls in love with Liverpool and stays here for 7+ years, or whether he returns to Germany in 2-3 years to find the zealous fans he thrives on, will be decided by the supporters at Anfield. Either those seated in the stands match his passion, or Klopp will gradually get more and more discouraged by seat-buyers (note I'm not saying "supporters") who don't really give a damn.

I know every single person on RAWK shares his amazing passion. Everyone else, though, needs to wake up and show him what YNWA really means. 
“Do not intermingle with people who act like 'they know it all'. If you do, you will wind up as lost and lonely as they are.”
― Christine Szymanski

Offline wemmick

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Re: Round Table, Liverpool 1-2 Crystal Palace - Klopp's first defeat at LFC
« Reply #5 on: November 10, 2015, 12:53:45 am »
The more negative questions posed are that over Mignolets ability. Should he keep his place?
He is the most frustrating keeper I can remember playing for us. Even more than Dudek. Migs is pretty good at keeping the ball out of our net, but he must be a nightmare to play with when he's not shot stopping. That ridiculous pass to Sakho right after Sakho's injury just epitomized Mignolet's time with us. The fuck was he thinking? And therein lies the problem. He doesn't think before he plays. He just reacts, all the time, which is great is some situations and fucking awful in others. If, at some point, a better keeper becomes available, we should spend big money on one. I'm happy with our squad generally, but Migs is probably as good as he'll ever be, and he's probably not good enough. Need a keeper who can play pro-actively.

Can Moreno be coached out of these mistakes?
He'll be all right. I don't think he'll ever be a top class defender. I think he'll become more positionally aware under Klopp and Buvac, but I think more than anything they will sort out his end product in the final third, and then we won't care too much about the few goals he gives away. Same with Schmeltzer at Dortmund. 

Is Can a midfielder when he always almost wants at least 2 touches? Will Henderson replace him as soon as available?
Yes and yes. Klopp will eventually force Can to play quickly, or move him back  to CB or sell him. He is incrementally changing our play right now, so there is some leeway being given to all the players bar Milner, but starting next season, I don't think Klopp will suffer Can playing slowly for too long. Can will adapt or he is out. We need Henderson back and Can needs a break, so I expect Henderson and Lucas in midfield as soon as he is fit. 

Will Lallana start to reap the rewards for his efforts and contribute with a few more goals?
Don't know. He worries me. He looks better under Klopp, but he is not getting on the end of enough moves. He should be scoring 8-10 a season. One assist isn't enough.

Is Bentekes finishing something to be concerned about or are we glad he’s finally getting the chances?
I also think he'll be all right. He is still becoming adjusted to the club, Klopp and Anfield. I don't think we'll see great consistency from Benteke until next season, but I still think he'll score 10 to 15 this season with the chances he is getting. Just need to keep that supply-line going!

Are we seeing a return to form with Lovren in a very timely manner given Sakho’s knock?
Lovren will do well under Klopp. I think he is starting to find his legs again, for sure, but he is not in-form yet. An in-form Lovren can pass like Sakho, and he is not there yet.

What will Klopp do to try and strengthen our weaknesses?
Honestly, I don't think he'll do much that we can see. Our biggest weaknesses are in our own minds. I think there is a very good reason he keeps saying "We can do more" in the press. It should be the mantra of the season. The pressing, energy, concentration and finishing will all come together once the players have a feeling for what he means.   

Offline kevin87

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Re: Round Table, Liverpool 1-2 Crystal Palace - Klopp's first defeat at LFC
« Reply #6 on: November 10, 2015, 04:10:59 am »

The more negative questions posed are that over Mignolets ability. Should he keep his place?
Mignolet is a frustrating man at the moment. His pass to Sakho is a classic example of his inability to be completely aware of the game and whats required at what time. Decisions like that have nothing to do with ability. But you just know he will pull off a ridiculous reflex save the next game which for me is such a source of frustration. I actually have been reasonably impressed with Bogdan when he has played so maybe its time to give him a few games before Christmas to see if we can get a reaction out of Mignolet.

Can Moreno be coached out of these mistakes?
Moreno can but a few of his mistakes have come from him purely being out muscled. Don't really know if you can coach that out of a player. I really am enjoying watching Moreno play under Klopp, and clyne for that matter. Watching our fullbacks up the field and racing forward on the counter is key to the style that Klopp Plays. Moreno will be fine under Klopp, just needs to work on a few positioning thing and he will be a very solid full back. What I would like him to do a bit more in attack is instead of just blasting a ball across the box is play a few more cut backs along the deck. There were a few occasions where Lallana and Coutinho were open on the edge of the area and could have been fed the ball. Benteke really does daw defenders and the likes of Lallana and coutinho need to capitalise of having that bit more space in scoring positions.

Is Can a midfielder when he always almost wants at least 2 touches? Will Henderson replace him as soon as available?
I think Henderson will replace him when he is fit, yes. Hopefully though Henderson being in the team will really encourage that 1 touch passing in midfield. Can had a funny game, his error for the goal was pretty shocking, but he needs to learn from that. The lad is only 20 which is very easily forgotten, especially with his size and the way he looks. I still believe he will be a very good footballer for the club but it may take 1 or 2 seasons to really start hitting his straps. What I like about a Can in midfield, and a Can-Lucas midfield is that we really look physically big in there. Its a nice change from watching players run straight though the centre of our team. I have no problem in Can keeping things simple and playing simple passes for the moment. I would much rather that than the Charlie Adam style of attempting to play Hollywood balls all day long. Emre will be all right, we have had a lot worse players in our midfield in recent years. For me there is only upside to him. Clearly though the coaching staff of current, former, and National all rate him very highly because he has played a hell of a lot of minutes this season. I think he is the only player to feature in almost every game for us?? People who know more about football than me see a lot in him and that's enough for me to keep persisting in him.

Will Lallana start to reap the rewards for his efforts and contribute with a few more goals?
Yes. I really do think he is just around the corner of a few goals. He was everywhere in this game and for me was one of our better players. I like how he played centrally too. I think he has more of an ability to get in and around Benteke (see his time at Southampton with Lambert) than coutinho and I think this is why Klopp chose to play Lallana centrally and Coutinho wide. This also allows coutinho to drop back a bith further in a more of an '8' if needed. Lallana's ability on the ball in tight spaces is really good and you could see him starting to build a relationship with Coutinho and Benteke. He will have 8-10 before the season is out I am sure of it. He seems to be really fit at the moment too so want to really see a good run of games. Klopp clearly rates him too which should be a great boost for his confidence. Great touch for the goal too.

Is Bentekes finishing something to be concerned about or are we glad he’s finally getting the chances?
No, his finishing will be fine. He should have had a goal and no doubt will be kicking himself but its nothing to really be concerned about yet. Its the first game he has started for Klopp so expect him to sharpen up over the next few weeks. We will need him to stay fit and be on his game in December. Huge month for the club. He has scored 2 in 3 games with history suggesting he scores goals in streaks of 10 or so games so hopefully he is hitting his straps just in time.

Are we seeing a return to form with Lovren in a very timely manner given Sakho’s knock?
Hopefully. We need him to get back to the form of his first few weeks in the club. He has looked better under Klopp so hoping he will slot in and be fine.

What will Klopp do to try and strengthen our weaknesses?
We really didn't do that much wrong I this game. Can had a brain fart, and Mignolet had a bit of an error for the winner. We looked really good after going a goal down and should have scored 2-3 from the 30th minute until the 80th. The winner came kind of out of no where. The team has a bit of mental toughness about it now which was missing under Rodgers so im confident we will continue in the vein we were before this game.

In terms of transfers we probably don't need heaps, maybe just bring a few loan players back if we get short. Injuries at CB could be a concern but we have wisdom and Iilori out on loan. Markovic cant come back but clearly he is looking at kent and Wilson to fill any voids.

LB could be a concern if Moreno goes down but from what i've read Flanno is around the corner which will be a big boost to everyone. At a pitch we still have Enrique if we can drag him away from his Instagram account.

Klopp has got us a lot more solid at the back and instilled a mentality that you can actually come back from a goal down. I've always believed of the individual talent in our squad, I think its right up there. Just getting some belief in these guys was the thing. I think we are really starting to get that now.

Oh and as for people leaving before the final whistle, I'm an Australian and would kill for the chance to go watch Liverpool week in and week out. Give your ticket to someone who wants it more and will stay the full 90. Give it to a young lad that cant afford to go because you know he will stay till the end. For those supporters who think their words or action have no effect on the players and coaches, think again. What do you expect these guys to be? some sort of unemotional freaks? If you were on a stage singing your arse out and saw people leaving before the end I am sure it would effect your confidence, so for a football player it is no different.

Offline Funky_Gibbons

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Re: Round Table, Liverpool 1-2 Crystal Palace - Klopp's first defeat at LFC
« Reply #7 on: November 10, 2015, 08:59:24 am »
Really nice OP, enjoyed reading that.

The more negative questions posed are that over Mignolets ability. Should he keep his place?

“He’s a good shot-stopper” is what you often hear – well, to be honest, who isn’t a good shot-stopper in the league these days? You won’t make it into the league without being decent at the most important aspect of goalkeeping. But nowadays, when you play for a big club, you need more than just shot-stopping and Mignolet doesn’t offer enough. When you look at Sunday’s game, when even the ‘good shot-stopping’ fails him, you’re left with a liability.

He’s a perfect example of a transfer committee signing based on stats rather than a managers requirements. We all know how Rodgers wanted to play when he was manager, he spoke about it often enough, “We play with 11 men, other teams play with 10 men and a goalkeeper.” At Swansea he had Vorm who was a good keeper who was as comfortable with the ball at his feet as he was in making saves. The transfer committee crunched the numbers and signed Mignolet. We tried to play the Rodgers way with him but it didn’t work, uncomfortable on the ball and playing defenders into trouble, he even lost his place to Brad Jones. He come back into the team and played well but his instructions had clearly been changed, and his responsibility stripped back. No longer was he instructed with playing the ball out from the back, now he whacked the ball downfield at every opportunity.

The second goal on Sunday was straight at him, straight into the old bread basket, that he didn’t hold onto the shot was bad enough, but why parry the ball back into the area rather than wide. After Bogdan’s performance against Bournemouth in the cup I think he deserves an opportunity but doubt we will see it happen as I think Klopp will give him another chance. But he’s days must surely be numbered.

Can Moreno be coached out of these mistakes?


I said in the summer Moreno hadn’t shown any ability to play in a back four. Last season he was only really trusted as a wing-back as part of a back five and this season we started with Gomez at left-back in a back four, which should tell him everything about his defending. My biggest issue with all his mistakes though is that he always favours his stronger left foot whatever the circumstance. Sunday’s first goal was another example where if he cleared the ball with his weaker right the danger would have been cleared, but instead he opens his body up and tries to use his left (and a wet-lettuce of challenge too).

I often see people say that he’s better going forward but I don’t see it. When he finds himself in the area or last third he usually hits the ball as hard as he can across the area in the hope someone gets a touch to it. You compare him to the composure and level headedness of Clyne when he gets forward and you can see that Clyne is a far superior full-back to Moreno in every aspect. There was a game a few weeks ago (Maybe Southampton home) when Lallana was standing in the middle of the goal unmarked and Moreno had the ball on the by-line. He just needed to square the ball to Lallana for a tap in but instead he hit the ball as hard as he could behind Lallana who couldn’t react in time due to the pace on the ball. Brainless. 

Is Can a midfielder when he always almost wants at least 2 touches? Will Henderson replace him as soon as available?

I thought Can was poor on Sunday and has been for a few weeks. Having played in the last Premier League game and midweek in the Europa League I would like to have seen him rested for Allen or Brannagan. One of my concerns has been the lack of rotation in midfield and I think Sunday showed how too many games had caught up with some players. Can took about twenty minutes to get into the game and when he did his passing and decision making was very poor. He needs to offer more than he is at the moment.

Henderson will walk back into the team and I think it will dramatically improve us as he provides a goal threat with his shooting and play making. 

Will Lallana start to reap the rewards for his efforts and contribute with a few more goals?

I was surprised to see the level of criticism Lallana received after the match, I thought he was one of our best players. I saw on Twitter after the game he had run the furthest and made the most sprints during the game, something Klopp will love. The moment in the first half when he made a run into the box and Clyne pinged a pass to him with loads of pace on it, and he brought it under control with a single touch and squared the ball to Benteke who screwed his shot wide was magical. Fantastic first touch.

Does he need to add more goals and assists, yes of course, but under a new manager with a new system things will take a bit of time to gel, but he is definitely contributing to our attacking play. Against Chelsea he was heavily involved in the second and third goals, they don’t go down as assists in his column but he was there to make a telling contribution.

Is Bentekes finishing something to be concerned about or are we glad he’s finally getting the chances?

I’m in the latter camp, I’d be worried if we weren’t creating chances and he wasn’t getting any shots. All strikers have games like this when nothing seems to go in. I remember Suarez in his first 18-months couldn’t hit a cows arse with a banjo and people were saying he needs to be moved out wide. I’ve seen a few comments about his movement being poor but you don’t get the numbers of chances he had on Sunday, or have a scoring record in the league that he has, with poor movement. I’m confident that if we continue to give him the chances like Sunday he will start to hit the back of the net more often. His misses probably cost us a win on Sunday but the defensive errors meant we lost.

Are we seeing a return to form with Lovren in a very timely manner given Sakho’s knock?

I’ve always maintained Lovren is a good defender when he is central. His biggest mistakes often happened under Rodgers when the system meant he had to defend in wide areas which he was very uncomfortable in. Under Klopp our centre-backs don’t split and he has looked far more comfortable. I was hoping the Sakho – Lovren centre back partnership we saw in Europe midweek was going to be maintained as I saw two defenders players an aggressive, high-line and tackling opposition players in their own half. Unfortunately injury to Sakho has prevented that but now is a big opportunity for Lovren. Sakho will be first choice when he returns but that other centre-back position is up for grabs.

What will Klopp do to try and strengthen our weaknesses?


I’d like to see a goalkeeper and a left-back signed as a priority. I think these are our weakest positions and an immediate upgrade could have a dramatic and immediate improvement on the team. I’m still of the opinion the squad is stronger than currently being shown. I think too many people allow the result to influence their opinion. We have some very good players.
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Offline mrantarctica

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Re: Round Table, Liverpool 1-2 Crystal Palace - Klopp's first defeat at LFC
« Reply #8 on: November 10, 2015, 09:24:02 am »

The more negative questions posed are that over Mignolets ability. Should he keep his place?

It would depend on what they see in training. Bogdan looked half decent for his games that I have seen. Mignolet to me seems like a player who makes all the defenders seem very nervous with his poor control and poor distribution and seemingly poor communication. Apart from his shot stopping (which is top drawer to be fair), I've not seen anything from him to suggest he is a top keeper at all. He'd be the first area I'd look to strengthen.

Can Moreno be coached out of these mistakes?


It's not always possible to get complete footballers. Sometimes you have to sacrifice in one or two areas to make gains in other areas, hoping that overall there are more positives than negatives. For me, Moreno has been one of our best attacking outlets under Klopp. He has looked industrious, energetic, and threatening on numerous occasions. He gives our team width and isn't afraid to get forward and show ambition. Obviously there is some quality to still be added but he's a young player. Yes, he's no Maldini but we don't have better alternatives at present. Hopefully he'll continue to improve his defending with time, but for the moment I'm happy to overlook these areas as long as he keeps contributing at the other end and we don't have any better options within the squad. When Flano (if and when) returns, the situation may be different.

Is Can a midfielder when he always almost wants at least 2 touches? Will Henderson replace him as soon as available?


Short answer is yes. We need Hendersons running, energy, leadership etc. We also need his distribution and quality of passing - something which Can lacks. We don't need more dribblers in the squad - Coutinho, Firming, Lallana and Ibe are all quite happy to carry the ball forward a lot.

Will Lallana start to reap the rewards for his efforts and contribute with a few more goals?


I've been a harsh critic of his ever since we signed him. I've never been convinced, even though he is obviously an elegant player. That being said, I thought he was our most dangerous player for the game. It's the lack of end product that is keeping him from being a really good player. Hopefully it's just a matter of time, confidence and fitness. I'm not holding my breath though. I've seen too many versions of 'classy, elegant, skilful' English players who just don't deliver at the top level consistently enough to be top class players. So far he's done nothing to dispel that belief.

Is Bentekes finishing something to be concerned about or are we glad he’s finally getting the chances?


Finishing is very much a form, fitness and confidence thing. We know Benteke is capable of scoring plenty of goals and plenty of skilful ones at that. We just need to keep him fit, and keep putting chances at his feet.

Are we seeing a return to form with Lovren in a very timely manner given Sakho’s knock?


With Sakho's knock and previous injury problems, he'll need to be at his best to take advantage of another opportunity. He's looked better under Klopp for the most part.

What will Klopp do to try and strengthen our weaknesses?

I think we're making steady progress. There is a growing belief in the side and we continue to play energetic, flowing football where possible. We need to do some smart business in the transfer window - a GK, CB, LB and a winger would be on the cards I'd say.

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Re: Round Table, Liverpool 1-2 Crystal Palace - Klopp's first defeat at LFC
« Reply #9 on: November 10, 2015, 09:54:50 am »
The more negative questions posed are that over Mignolets ability. Should he keep his place?

He should keep his place over Bogdan, because he's better than Bogdan. But in January, absolutely, we should be looking to improve. Its a position which is quite easily improved upon for a smaller fee than most positions. I wouldnt know which keepers but I'm sure Klopp has a number of options from Germany (Leno? Ter Stegen?). Mignolet has had enough time to try and improve in certain aras and has shown no sign of it. He is a good shot stopper but then the vast majority of keepers in this league are. I saw Gomes at the weekend first hand and he's generally a very good shot stopper.....just fucking terrible in other areas and prone to ridiculous errors. Mignolet is better than that, but not by much. We need to push on to the next level in certain positions and goalkeeper is certainly one.

Can Moreno be coached out of these mistakes?

Hope so, he seems to have a good attitude and he has improved immeasurably already under Klopp so I'm pretty confident that with a full season he will flourish into the left back we want him to be, or at least a lot closer to it. He's young and he's still in a relatively new league so I think we need to be patient.

Is Can a midfielder when he always almost wants at least 2 touches? Will Henderson replace him as soon as available?

Eurgh, I have no idea about Can. But yes absolutely Hendo should replace him. I dont know what Can is actually meant to be excelling at. He looks like he should be a fantastic football but he's not particularly good at anything. Is he a CM? A RB? A CB? A versatible sub? He needs to improve massively for whatever position he wants to play in. His attributes arent strong enough to be starting in any position once Hendo is back.
If he's being asked to head the ball too frequently - which isn't exactly his specialty - it could affect his ear and cause an infection. Especially if the ball hits him on the ear directly.

Offline RedKenWah

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Re: Round Table, Liverpool 1-2 Crystal Palace - Klopp's first defeat at LFC
« Reply #10 on: November 10, 2015, 10:23:52 am »
In some ways this game was a nice dose of reality to go along with all the hysteria of KloppMania. That it happened against Palace though is what is most frustrating as they were there to be beaten... If we hadn't of had our european game on Thursday then it would very well have been different, however it was not and we want to be in europe to experience times like this so we have to get on with it.

The more negative questions posed are that over Mignolets ability. Should he keep his place?

For the short term future, yes. For the long term... nope he has to be replaced. He is a fantastic shot stopper and i think possibly one of the top 5 in the league, but being a keeper is so much more than just that. His distribution of the ball is well league 2 standard, and his thinking before passing is well.. sunday league at best and was highlighted none more so than passing the ball to Sakho who had just come on with an injured knee...

There are better goalkeepers out there and if we get an opportunity we should be looking at 'em with the hope of taking over from Mignolet. I'm not too sure on Bogdan and i don't know if he is better than Mignolet...

Can Moreno be coached out of these mistakes?

I sincerely hope so... He's with a manager who has faith in him, and he's got opportunities to cement his place. He's got virtually no one challenging him for a position with seemingly Enrique out of the equation and Joe Gomez injured for the season so if he continues to have brain farts during games, then come January if Klopp decides to bring in another LB then he can have no complaints. I think he suffered recently from having his dig at Brendan and about his "inner rage" - which sounds awfully similar to the "inner chimp" ... However like all footballers, he has his bad parts and he has his good parts, and his attacking displays are there to be admired, his crossing is generally very good and his left peg can be lethal as well. Sometimes when he crosses he's crossing to no one, but i think during this game, he had 1 very decent cross to Benteke that Benteke should have buried so kudos to him for that. He is young though and will take a bit of time to develop but he will have the perfect opportunity to develop by playing games.

Will Lallana start to reap the rewards for his efforts and contribute with a few more goals?

I think he will. I think during the game personally he was one of the stand out players. Considering the game was played in quite a heavy downpour of rain, the ball would have been slippery as anything, but practically anytime the ball was played to him, in the air or on the ground, he killed that ball with very little effort. I think him having a run of games will help, and i believe that the goals will soon come for him. I think though that with him, i do prefer him to be on the width rather than being deployed where he was on Sunday. I think that spot should be reserved for Coutinho.
But he's working hard and contributing to the team and where as my biggest complaint of him was that he wasn't really a Brendan Rodgers type player in that he isn't very good at moving the ball along quickly enough, for a Jurgen Klopp side, he's more suited.

Is Bentekes finishing something to be concerned about or are we glad he’s finally getting the chances?

You could argue 1 way or the other. You could say at least he is getting into the positions... which is better than what our other strikers could do for us last season so it's an improvement. He's a threat and i think the way we as a team play, we like to have many threats that gives the opposition pause for thought. Where we were successful in 13/14 season in we had Suarez, Sturridge, Sterling to some extent, Gerrard etc that frightened oppositions, we now have Benteke & Coutinho. All it needs is for Firmino & Lallana/Ibe to step up and then instead of 2 main threats, we have 4 or 5. Having more threats will mean the opposition will allow players more opportunities and that will definitely mean Benteke will have more chances.

He is adapting as well, he's been used to being the main focal point of an attack and whilst in a way he is that with us, he has to learn that not everything is going to go through him, we aren't always going to be going wide and pinging balls into the box for him to head.. we will mix it up and once he gets used to it, he'll find that he will have other opportunities to score.

Are we seeing a return to form with Lovren in a very timely manner given Sakho’s knock?

Only time will tell. He will have to step up now and prove his worth. He's playing for a different manager now who will give him the time and confidence to prove himself. And that is confidence outside of press conferences bigging him up so that he can fail. it'll be a Klopp bear hug type confidence builder and hopefully he will shine.

What will Klopp do to try and strengthen our weaknesses?

I think between now and January, just work, work and more work on the training ground. With the injuries mounting up as well he's kinda limited in what to do. For Moreno though, he can introduce competition but bringing back Enrique from whatever place he's currently in.. For Mignolet, use Bogdan more, again competition...

Actually maybe add more competition with the players he has.

Offline killer-heels

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Re: Round Table, Liverpool 1-2 Crystal Palace - Klopp's first defeat at LFC
« Reply #11 on: November 10, 2015, 11:01:48 am »
The more negative questions posed are that over Mignolets ability. Should he keep his place?
He should probably keep in place because there is still question marks over how good Bogdan is. I think Bogdan needs more cup games before we can be confident in his ability or Mignolet has to turn to real dog poo before we make the change. What is clear though is that Mignolet isn't good enough.

Can Moreno be coached out of these mistakes?
Maybe not. But even top attacking full backs continue to make mistakes and give the opposition opportunities. The problem is that he is making some mistakes in defensive positions but apart from his energy and pace, he has no quality at the other end of the pitch either. If he was a potent attacker and could put in a great cross then we can carry that. But his passing and decisions in the final third are poor so we have a full back who isn't a good attacker and makes a lot of defensive mistake. He was a poor signing and I wish we had got Ryan Bertrand instead.

Is Can a midfielder when he always almost wants at least 2 touches? Will Henderson replace him as soon as available?
I don't know what he is. I know what he does though, which is rampage across the pitch, make crap decisions, give the illusion of being composed as possible and do nothing productive. He was a poor signing for what we needed. Henderson should breeze back into the side.

Will Lallana start to reap the rewards for his efforts and contribute with a few more goals?
Hard to say because it depends on a number of factors, with the main one being Benteke's form. If Benteke starts firing then naturally you may see the attacking midfielders assists creep up (obviously). But in terms of goals I don't know. I can never really see Lallana being the difference maker so until we start scoring loads of goals again I don't see him chipping in with many.

Is Bentekes finishing something to be concerned about or are we glad he’s finally getting the chances?
I am not concerned about Benteke's finishing. He can finish, but sometimes strikers will miss easy chances.

Are we seeing a return to form with Lovren in a very timely manner given Sakho’s knock?
I don't see how we can describe anything Lovren has done yet as a return to form. He hasnt played against top quality opposition yet and he still looked a bit shaky when touch tight on the Palace team. He needs to show much more in the next 2 months before we can stop panicking when he is on the field.

What will Klopp do to try and strengthen our weaknesses?
I don't know what Klopp will try to do but I know that he needs to do a lot. He has a massive job on and he is faced with a situation where we need a better keeper, a better centre back, a better full back, a better central midfielder, a pacy attacking midfielder/winger. The striker situation is ok on paper but unless Sturridge gets back on the field he will need another striker come the summer. So yeah, this is going to take ages.

Offline Bergersrightwingviews

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Re: Round Table, Liverpool 1-2 Crystal Palace - Klopp's first defeat at LFC
« Reply #12 on: November 10, 2015, 12:53:05 pm »
Can Moreno be coached out of these mistakes?

Yes, I think he has shown that he can improve throughout his time here. I would like him to be a bit more aggressive in the opposition's box. I think he will iron out these silly defensive mistakes too. I think he has done a lot right. His ability to get back and cut out chances is fantastic. He has great recovery pace. It is just the lot of defenders to be scrutinised like this. How many better leftbacks are there in the league? How many better leftbacks are there in the world that we could get to replace him?

Is Can a midfielder when he always almost wants at least 2 touches? Will Henderson replace him as soon as available?


Guttman is right: he is a right Curate's Egg. God knows. A bit like Moreno, I feel everyone wants to focus on what he can't do. But what about all the things he does well? Surging runs, that clever drag back he does to relieve pressure and get himself facing goal with space to run into, the steel he gives us (most of the time) in the middle. I think he will look amazing once we figure out Klopp's counter attacking patterns. I feel with Emre his best work is going forward, but people seem to want him to be a DM.

Will Lallana start to reap the rewards for his efforts and contribute with a few more goals?

I like a lot of things about him, but for me he is missing an outstanding quality. If he had a rocket shot, or great pace, or great strength he could be a top player. For me, he is a jack of all trades master of none. I would rather Klopp have £25m than Lallana. I just don't see how he is ever going to warrant a place ahead of Coutinho, Firmino or Ibe (if the latter two reach their potential).

Is Bentekes finishing something to be concerned about or are we glad he’s finally getting the chances?


No, he has scored all sorts of goals for us. He had a great record at Villa in a shite side. He is a 1 in 2 striker. You don't have that strike rate by accident.

Are we seeing a return to form with Lovren in a very timely manner given Sakho’s knock?


Return to what form? Was he really ever that good. I think he will look better under the organised system Klopp uses, and I hope he can be something other than a total liability. I still think he is a busted flush though and think he should be got rid of as soon as we can find a replacement.

What will Klopp do to try and strengthen our weaknesses?

The squad has some obvious gaps, but I think what it needs more than anything is a better mentality. If Klopp can instil his own never-say-die mentality, that will do more for us than any £50m player we could buy. In more practical terms, I would like to see us counter better. Hit Benteke, and then he lays it off to runners. We need to start getting men beyond him. Henderson may help a great deal with this when he is back. 
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Re: Round Table, Liverpool 1-2 Crystal Palace - Klopp's first defeat at LFC
« Reply #13 on: November 10, 2015, 01:13:37 pm »
The more negative questions posed are that over Mignolets ability. Should he keep his place?
People say he is a shot stopper but the stats don’t tell you that. Until recently I think it was 9 of the last 11 shots on target went in. So he isnt shot stopping, cant kick and don’t talk to anyone. Get rid. New keeper please.

Can Moreno be coached out of these mistakes?
Hmm not sure. You can coach and coach someone but when the cross the line they make the decisions themselves and his decisions are mainly wrong. At the moment he has little end product when attacking and is defensively a let-down. What do you do with him?

Is Can a midfielder when he always almost wants at least 2 touches? Will Henderson replace him as soon as available?
This guy is highly rated in Germany and Germans aren’t often wrong are they when it comes to football? I think the guys on TAW summed him well yesterday when they said he was a project but we aren’t good enough to have a project in our first 11 yet. Me? Im not sure what I think yet.

Will Lallana start to reap the rewards for his efforts and contribute with a few more goals?
Lallana frustrates me more than any other player. Looks the part but doesn’t actually do that. 1 assist and 0 goals in prem this season. I think you cant play him, countino and Firmino in same team. One has to lose out and it should be Lallana.

Is Bentekes finishing something to be concerned about or are we glad he’s finally getting the chances?
Nope but it would be nice to see one of our forwards 100% fit.

Are we seeing a return to form with Lovren in a very timely manner given Sakho’s knock?
I think if you put a better keeper behind Lovren and he will improve a lot.

What will Klopp do to try and strengthen our weaknesses?
Spend spend spend baby! New keeper and forward.

Offline Floydy

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Re: Round Table, Liverpool 1-2 Crystal Palace - Klopp's first defeat at LFC
« Reply #14 on: November 10, 2015, 04:38:31 pm »
No knee Jerking as thought second half we looked fluid going forward, something I haven't really seen this year.
Still switching off at the back and conceding silly goals.    The eyes tell you that there is far more running going into individual players games, if we can harness the team work rate into a cohesive approach we will win more than we will lose.

Observations- said it from day 1 - Mignolet is nowhere near good enough for LFC.  He got out of jail with that ridiculous pass to Sakho only to flap at a (lets be honest) rather tame and direct header 1st header from Dann.
I just don't think he can contribute enough over a season to be our keeper, he does not win us 10-15 points a season and I cant see him ever getting to that stage either.

Confidence is certainly up, it is there for all to see.  Bring on Manchester City
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Offline McrRed

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Re: Round Table, Liverpool 1-2 Crystal Palace - Klopp's first defeat at LFC
« Reply #15 on: November 10, 2015, 05:49:47 pm »
I try to stay away from commenting on round tables because I'm not very good with the written word...put me in front of you all and I'll hold my own but on a computer I restrict myself to the odd quip here and there. That, and I'm always on me phone with its tappy tappy on-screen keyboard limits sensible contribution.

But I'll make an exception just to put forward my opinion on the flack Mignolet's getting.

In my humble opinion the criticism levelled at him is entirely undeserved. He keeps us in games, match after match and yet the odd half mistake is rounded on by fans: get rid, he's shite they say.

Palace's second goal, benteke goes up for the header misses, Migs makes a great reaction save low down and people on here say he should have caught it? punched it further? It was a reaction save...and Dann reacted first to what happened next. Not the three of our players around.him who stood like dummies watching the drama unfold.
If you're keeping count, that's at least four players besides Mignolet that had a chance to do something about preventing that goal. What disappoints me is that they get off Scott free. Come on, if you're gonna whinge, at least do it fairly.

Mignolet is a class goalie and if you're careful to watch how often Hart, Cech, de Gea et al fuck up with their distribution you'd see that being a good shot stopper is really important. For palace's second, Migs did his bit...he shot-stopped. The rest is down to the team and as we all know the whole team has a fuck-up or two per match in them. 

Watching back, palace got lucky. They scored with a few chances whilst we were profligate with a tired, leggy Benteke.

Game done, move on.

And don't ever leave the ground early ...

Offline kevin87

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Re: Round Table, Liverpool 1-2 Crystal Palace - Klopp's first defeat at LFC
« Reply #16 on: November 10, 2015, 08:27:34 pm »

Will Lallana start to reap the rewards for his efforts and contribute with a few more goals?

I was surprised to see the level of criticism Lallana received after the match, I thought he was one of our best players. I saw on Twitter after the game he had run the furthest and made the most sprints during the game, something Klopp will love. The moment in the first half when he made a run into the box and Clyne pinged a pass to him with loads of pace on it, and he brought it under control with a single touch and squared the ball to Benteke who screwed his shot wide was magical. Fantastic first touch.

Does he need to add more goals and assists, yes of course, but under a new manager with a new system things will take a bit of time to gel, but he is definitely contributing to our attacking play. Against Chelsea he was heavily involved in the second and third goals, they don’t go down as assists in his column but he was there to make a telling contribution.

Great point here. This is yet another example why stats cannot just be used to analyse players. Both those goals don't happen without Lallana's contribution. I'm really enjoying watching him play at the moment. he runs around with a big smile on his face and you know that he is just around the corner of a few goals. Currently he is probably the fittest and healthiest he has been since being at Liverpool so that has to be good for his confidence too.


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Re: Round Table, Liverpool 1-2 Crystal Palace - Klopp's first defeat at LFC
« Reply #17 on: November 10, 2015, 08:51:59 pm »
I try to stay away from commenting on round tables because I'm not very good with the written word...put me in front of you all and I'll hold my own but on a computer I restrict myself to the odd quip here and there. That, and I'm always on me phone with its tappy tappy on-screen keyboard limits sensible contribution.

But I'll make an exception just to put forward my opinion on the flack Mignolet's getting.

In my humble opinion the criticism levelled at him is entirely undeserved. He keeps us in games, match after match and yet the odd half mistake is rounded on by fans: get rid, he's shite they say.

Palace's second goal, benteke goes up for the header misses, Migs makes a great reaction save low down and people on here say he should have caught it? punched it further? It was a reaction save...and Dann reacted first to what happened next. Not the three of our players around.him who stood like dummies watching the drama unfold.
If you're keeping count, that's at least four players besides Mignolet that had a chance to do something about preventing that goal. What disappoints me is that they get off Scott free. Come on, if you're gonna whinge, at least do it fairly.

Mignolet is a class goalie and if you're careful to watch how often Hart, Cech, de Gea et al fuck up with their distribution you'd see that being a good shot stopper is really important. For palace's second, Migs did his bit...he shot-stopped. The rest is down to the team and as we all know the whole team has a fuck-up or two per match in them. 

Watching back, palace got lucky. They scored with a few chances whilst we were profligate with a tired, leggy Benteke.

Game done, move on.

And don't ever leave the ground early ...

Yep the stick Mignolet gets is bordering on obsessive. Fwiw I thought he should have held the original effort for their winner, or at least tried to, but the obsession with his ball to Sakho is ridiculous. Sakho was in plenty of room and the ball was basically delivered straight to his feet, it was far from the hospital ball that it has being portrayed as by some on here since the game. If Sakho didn't feel up to playing it he could have just let it go out of play and went down again.  Instead he dealt with the original ball with little difficulty but played a bad pass after Moreno gave it back to him. Strangely nobody is blaming Moreno for giving him the ball.  it's never that simple with Simon, it appears that he will always be the scapegoat unless Lovren is playing of course! I said last season that his time was done here because no matter how well he might do there would be those waiting in the long grass for him to make a mistake or bitch about his distribution or some other such nonsense. As recently as a couple of weeks ago we had a couple of beauts blaming him for the goal against Southampton!

On the game itself I thought we were unlucky. There just aren't enough goals in us at the moment and that always leaves you vulnerable in games like this. I like what Klopp is doing in the way that we are controlling games in general. I also think that the trip to Siberia had an effect, I don't know how much but I expect a fair bit.

Finally on Klopp, am I the only one who's a little uncomfortable with him calling the fans out? It seems to have met with universal approval on RAWK but I don't think that's the Liverpool way personally. That doesn't mean that I don't know why he did it, it also doesn't mean that I don't see how it might have the desired effect. I suppose it's a case of the ends justifying the means if it gets a positive reaction. We need the fans to play their part for sure but I wish there was another way. It does show that he has balls though - as if we didn't know already!
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Online Rush 82

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Round Table, Liverpool 1-2 Crystal Palace - Klopp's first defeat at LFC
« Reply #18 on: November 10, 2015, 09:21:17 pm »
Yep the stick Mignolet gets is bordering on obsessive. Fwiw I thought he should have held the original effort for their winner, or at least tried to, but the obsession with his ball to Sakho is ridiculous. Sakho was in plenty of room and the ball was basically delivered straight to his feet, it was far from the hospital ball that it has being portrayed as by some on here since the game. If Sakho didn't feel up to playing it he could have just let it go out of play and went down again.  Instead he dealt with the original ball with little difficulty but played a bad pass after Moreno gave it back to him. Strangely nobody is blaming Moreno for giving him the ball.  it's never that simple with Simon, it appears that he will always be the scapegoat unless Lovren is playing of course! I said last season that his time was done here because no matter how well he might do there would be those waiting in the long grass for him to make a mistake or bitch about his distribution or some other such nonsense. As recently as a couple of weeks ago we had a couple of beauts blaming him for the goal against Southampton!

On the game itself I thought we were unlucky. There just aren't enough goals in us at the moment and that always leaves you vulnerable in games like this. I like what Klopp is doing in the way that we are controlling games in general. I also think that the trip to Siberia had an effect, I don't know how much but I expect a fair bit.

Finally on Klopp, am I the only one who's a little uncomfortable with him calling the fans out? It seems to have met with universal approval on RAWK but I don't think that's the Liverpool way personally. That doesn't mean that I don't know why he did it, it also doesn't mean that I don't see how it might have the desired effect. I suppose it's a case of the ends justifying the means if it gets a positive reaction. We need the fans to play their part for sure but I wish there was another way. It does show that he has balls though - as if we didn't know already!

On your last point, did you watch the post match presser? He made it very clear that he was expressing how he felt in that moment not having a go at the fans, and that if the press made a big deal of it, he wouldn't give them such authentic feedback in the future.

I reckon our collective guilty consciences and heightened awareness of crap the atmosphere is in reality has resulted in the reaction here on RAWK

A bit on topic, having watched the game again, I'm  flabbergasted that we didn't come away with at least a point.

I agree that there is too much negativity with respect to Mignolet.

Juergen will concentrate on making us really hard to beat first - the brain farts have to stop. The goals will come - we've seen enough to know that.
« Last Edit: November 10, 2015, 09:24:09 pm by Rush 82 »

Offline goalrushatgoodison

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Re: Round Table, Liverpool 1-2 Crystal Palace - Klopp's first defeat at LFC
« Reply #19 on: November 10, 2015, 10:15:14 pm »
On your last point, did you watch the post match presser? He made it very clear that he was expressing how he felt in that moment not having a go at the fans, and that if the press made a big deal of it, he wouldn't give them such authentic feedback in the future.

I reckon our collective guilty consciences and heightened awareness of crap the atmosphere is in reality has resulted in the reaction here on RAWK

A bit on topic, having watched the game again, I'm  flabbergasted that we didn't come away with at least a point.

I agree that there is too much negativity with respect to Mignolet.

Juergen will concentrate on making us really hard to beat first - the brain farts have to stop. The goals will come - we've seen enough to know that.

I suppose it's whether his reference to been alone was a conscious reference to our anthem or whether it was a completely unintentional one. But you know, I think you are right. I am probably being more influenced by RAWK's reaction then what he actually said.
Those whom the Gods would destroy, they first make mad.

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Re: Round Table, Liverpool 1-2 Crystal Palace - Klopp's first defeat at LFC
« Reply #20 on: November 11, 2015, 07:16:28 am »
I really would wish discussing players would stop at this point for a while as it kind of grew into this forum in a way that people tend to miss the entire picture as well as current circumstances. I was gulity of that as well but in hindsight to me that had been more of a sign of a manager refusing to do a proper job rather than sticking out his neck and taking responsibility for his work.

Considering this, I would wish that the players, most of them in recent years having to adopt to a lot of compromise, bad management and no proper leadership or structure within the club, be given the possibility to show their quality until the end of the season before being judged as the majority of the them seem to be willing to give their all for the club.

I really think none of them deserves to be questioned at the moment as they all need a little bit of more time to adopt to a manager who obviously has a very strong vision of what to except which demands a lot from the players at the moment.

Judge them by the end of the season, be it Can, Lucas, Skrtel, Mignolet or Benteke, Moreno, Allen, Lallana etc... all with different stories with the club but all willing to give their all for he shirt.

I really think this would be fair enough.
« Last Edit: November 11, 2015, 07:20:58 am by steveeastend »
One thing does need to be said: in the post-Benitez era, there was media-led clamour (but also some politicking going on at the club) to make the club more English; the idea being that the club had lost the very essence of what it means to be ‘Liverpool’. Guillem Ballague 18/11/10

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Re: Round Table, Liverpool 1-2 Crystal Palace - Klopp's first defeat at LFC
« Reply #21 on: November 11, 2015, 12:56:50 pm »
Is Can a midfielder when he always almost wants at least 2 touches? Will Henderson replace him as soon as available?

Yes, but he is an attacking midfielder. He shouldn't be sat next to Lucas. This is really my only disagreement with Klopp so far. Lucas does not need a partner to sit (but if you think he does then it should probably be Allen). And by asking Can to do it then you are also not playing to his strengths. My view on Can is that he is Yaya Toure-light. A talented, specialist footballer that really needs a midfield set around him so that he can play a forward-thinking number 8/10 role through the centre. The problem is, is that I'm not sure he is better than Firminho at that. I'm not sure if there's a place for him in the team when all are fit.

But at least he isn't playing centre back.

Will Lallana start to reap the rewards for his efforts and contribute with a few more goals?

Whilst I admire his efforts, his work-rate, I just don't think he works that well for us as an attacking force. The main issue, and I've said this before, is all top attacking footballers at this level must offer a good level of penetration. And for all Adam's neat feet, clever half turns and flicks he doesn't often provide that.

Ibe beats a man with agility and acceleration and takes them out of the game.
Coutinho beats a man, or provides the odd through ball and takes defenders out of the game.
Sturridge beats a man, provides the odd through ball and has incredible movement to get in behind. He takes men out of the game.
Henderson spots space in behind and can bust an absolute gut from deep to get in there, taking people out of the game.

Adam buys space for himself. He doesn't often leave people in the dirt. He doesn't see the angles and space for through balls and he doesn't often spot the run in beyond and behind to receive one either. The only way he could really redeem himself from this lack of penetration is if he was some Gerrard/Lampard-like god of finishing from 20-25 yards. And we definitely know he isn't that.

I think the things that he is good at are just not that effective in the Premier League. But people see those things that he is good at and assume he is an effective player.

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Re: Round Table, Liverpool 1-2 Crystal Palace - Klopp's first defeat at LFC
« Reply #22 on: November 11, 2015, 01:25:07 pm »
I know others can, will and have been far more extensive in their analysis (nice OP Daws :wave) but I'm not going to be. Boils down to a couple of things.

The squad was fucked after the long round trip to Russia, we were slow out of the blocks in the first half and even slower in the second. It's nothing new to teams playing in the Europa League who have a bad habit of losing after a Thursday night away game.

A couple of individual mistakes cost us but we have to account for them collectively. It's always a passage of play that leads to a mistake and there are 11 of our players out on that pitch, pointing fingers helps no one. The transfer window is not open so chatting shit about individual replacements isn't the solution right now.

We didn't take out chances in front of goal, where once again our shooting accuracy was fucking woeful.

Right now it's about togetherness on the pitch and getting some confidence back in our attacking play. The international break should help on both counts even if some of the squad aren't here.

And credit where credit's due. Palace are a decent outfit who play to their strengths. They're physically aggressive in defence and are rapid on the counter attack. They took their chances when they were presented with them and ultimately that's why they won and we lost.

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Re: Round Table, Liverpool 1-2 Crystal Palace - Klopp's first defeat at LFC
« Reply #23 on: November 15, 2015, 03:09:32 am »
The weird thing is with Lallana is that i actually think he is more suited to Klopp's play than what Coutinho is, but we all know little phil just has that magic to do something out the blue, lallana doesn't,

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Re: Round Table, Liverpool 1-2 Crystal Palace - Klopp's first defeat at LFC
« Reply #24 on: November 15, 2015, 09:13:34 am »
I thought we looked a bit leggy honestly. One of my concerns is player consistency, we have very jekyll and hyde players. I'd prefer 7 out or 10's everyweek rather than 9 one week and 3 the next.

Players in particular are Mignolet, Moreno, Skrtel, Can and Lallana.

These are all pretty much regulars but turn in good performances and then poor ones, it happens too often. However they also have one thing in common and this is they lack responsibility and are too happy to just do there bit and that's it.

 Mignolet is happy to stop shots but if he had a decision to make he will leave it to another player.

Moreno will get up and down all day, athletic lad and he'll put in a tackle but only if he knows he won't get hurt. He's never won a 50-50 but he'll make a great sliding tackle from behind. He crosses the ball very often, it's pretty evident he's not too fussed where exactly he's crossing it as long as he crosses it then it's job done for him. He also will do flicks and back hells on the 18 yard box.

Skrtel has been shown up by Sakho, I remember the banner along the lines of he goes into burger king and asks for a big Mac, only if the fella behind the till is a shithouse mind. Will look strong and dominant some days and others get pushed around the park and out of position.

Can, the tank. Who operates this tank anyway? Give a tank time and don't oppose it and it can be devastating, hound it from all angles and it doesn't have the manoeuvrability to cope.

Finally Lallana, the technique of a premier league superstar, who's footballing brain was shaped in the lower leagues. Sometimes he's completely anonymous, he's vying with Firmino long term and the difference is that firmino doesn't require multiple touches and already is one step ahead, Lallana too has the ability to take less touches but for whatever reason doesn't.

All these players could be great against city next week and the week against a lesser team be completely at fault or do nothing of note.

I know it sounds harsh after out first defeat in 12 but we've had these defeats before. Go to Chelsea (despite there form) and win quite comfortably and then lose in that manner to Palace.

Klopp spoke on his press conference about the size of Palace,the strength too. Our strong players wasn't up to the job. Everyone has a responsibility but the players we needed to rely on, to win battles, we couldn't.
« Last Edit: November 15, 2015, 09:21:06 am by Upinsmoke »

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Re: Round Table, Liverpool 1-2 Crystal Palace - Klopp's first defeat at LFC
« Reply #25 on: November 15, 2015, 06:01:03 pm »
I think we did very well against a motivated and talented Palace but we just couldn't get the ball in the net. The mental effect of past losses/draws came into play a bit. I don't have a problem with any of the performances from Mignolet to Moreno to Lallana and Can-think they all did their best and it just didn't work out. Not much of a round table type opinion but I think we're too focused on individual performances sometimes. Think Klopp is doing very well and results have been good but this one got away sadly. Lots to learn from it though and the break will help. Unlike the media I don't expect Klopp to have a huge effect right away but if given time he will work wonders. Injuries are a big issue and getting players like Henderson and Sturridge back will help immensely.

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