Topic: Round Table Manchester Utd 2-1 Liverpool

[Hinesy]

Never mind the handshakes with the other team, how about our players introducing themselves to each other.
I'm fed up of a pass, immediate pass back and little movement, then rinse and repeat then when we get pressed, kick it up to Carroll.
Yes Spearing was at fault for their 2nd goal, but Ferdinand was at fault for ours so as ever positives (not many) and negatives...

Minus:
1. One up front away from home means we can't counterattack if Bellamy or someone with pace and skill is also playing. Downing I'm talking to you, you were rubbish. Dirk, you need 3 touches when you receive the ball and it allows time for the opposing side to get back. We either play 4-4-2 or 4-5-1 with proper wingers.
2. Gerrard that far back? Was it to protect his fitness? Was it to allow Spearing to get forward? Nope, I don't think so either. I hardly saw him run near their box of his own violition in th 2nd half, when we needed it most.
3.Spearing didn't know where to pass the ball to. As much it kills me to say, when Utd go forward they flow quickly. We did at the start of the season, we didn't today.
4. Suarez and Carroll both need service. Carroll needs the ball played to him in the box, Suarez needs our players to pull defenders away from him. We didn't give to them today.
5. Dodgy refing but not the end of the world, we got some, we didn't others.
6. In my opinion Suarez should've shaked hands without eye contact and moved on. The press will ignore Ferdinand's refusal and concentrate on Luis' instead. It puts Dalglish in an awkward position at best and makes the whole club look petty otherwise. Yes I know Evra's a classless c*nt, he always be but he should've shook hands.

Plus:
1. Johnson
2. Our defence
3. It was as much ours for taking as theirs. They didn't rip us to bits, a couple of times but otherwise not. We could've had them easily if we'd attacked with vigour and force and numbers. Especially at 2-0 down.


Oh and not that you'll be reading this, but Manchester Utd fans, get some of your own songs instead of singing about us all the fucking time. You small town little minded saddos. Pathetic and classless. oh, that's right, I forgot, you're Ferguson's children, that explains it.

shite.

[thegoodfella]

Minus:
1. One up front away from home means we can't counterattack if Bellamy or someone with pace and skill is also playing. Downing I'm talking to you, you were rubbish. Dirk, you need 3 touches when you receive the ball and it allows time for the opposing side to get back. We either play 4-4-2 or 4-5-1 with proper wingers.
2. Gerrard that far back? Was it to protect his fitness? Was it to allow Spearing to get forward? Nope, I don't think so either. I hardly saw him run near their box of his own violition in th 2nd half, when we needed it most.

Just to add in some of my observations, I think we started with Luis up front and Gerrard supporting him, Johnson looked good with that system and pushed on because Kuyt was on the right with him.

But the middle was where we lost the match. As soon as the management figured out Henderson and Spearing wasn't going to work, Gerrard was pulled back with Spearing, Henderson disappeared completely, Kuyt was all over the shop, neither front nor on the right, Johnson stayed back, and that left Luis all alone up front. Add to that Downing's ineffectiveness, which made Enrique nervous, there was zero penetration from the left hand until Bellamy came on.

[SMD]

Why do we only seem to show urgency once the fourth official sticks his board up? Suddenly we were running at United, playing incisive balls and creating (albeit weak) chances. We had 90 minutes to do this at our leisure, even if it's just a chance every 5 minutes that's still 18 chances.

United didn't deserve to win that, we deserved to lose. Valencia aside, they looked pretty ordinary and it was only our reluctance to defend crosses properly that let them in. Welbeck is a mystery to me, he's like a lanky Heskey - except he has the confidence without the skill. Yet for most of United's chances, we let them waltz through. Forget Spearing's faux pas, mistakes like that happen and will always happen. There are systematic problems with our defending. Johnson and Enrique let their men put crosses in far too easily and for some reason we were outnumbered in midfield and attack. What gives? Dirk had another game where he didn't really contribute going forward and Downing just didn't contribute. Last night I watched a video on Youtube, about 7 minutes long, of Gerrard's assists between 2000 and 2011. The vast majority show just how fucking deadly the guy is 25 yards from goal.
It was so painful watching him stood just outside the centre circle with the ball, looking for a pass. Complete waste of his talents, especially if he's unable to charge about any more. In fact it speaks volumes about our lack of options in central midfield without Lucas.

I'm sick of this season, to be honest. A load of gutless performances sprinkled with games where you think we're starting to click before slamming down the toilet seat of disappointment on our johnsons. Hyperbole oozing out of every pore of the media, determined to wring every last drop out of the udders of the BARCLAY'S PREMIERSHIP SPONSORED BY FORD, AND IT'S LIVE. A media that even this government can't pretend isn't wildly out of control and massively decadent.
We're in the League Cup final and the 5th round of the FA Cup for the first time in what seems like ages. I want to enjoy it but this group of players just seems to be unfathomable. We get ourselves up for some big games but not others. We show flashes of desire then revert to being unable to complete a simple 5 pass move.

All I want from now until the end of the season is for our players to do the basics and to show some effort. That's all. I just feel like it's far too much to ask and I'm already hoping that we can just skip the rest of the league programme.

[Aristotle]

It was shit. We gifted them 2 goals and they only gifted us 1. Only player that looked likely to make anything happens was Valencia, a quality player imo, and that was about it. The game was awful. I think Scholes alone had the ball for about 7 minutes and no one even tried to pressure him into giving it away. Spearing had a really bad game, every one gives away unlucky goals it happens. But for a holding midfielder he couldn't have held on to an anchor tied to his neck. No tackles, no interceptions and felt overshadowed by Gerrard. Speaking of which I thought he was a hindrance rather than an asset in midfield today. Everyone knows what Steven Gerrard can do, and that includeds himself. It was almost if he was inadvertently bullying Henderson and Spearing today. He passed to them like proxies, not to set them up but so he could get the ball a bit further. I don't know how to better explain it but it looked like he didn't trust them and spent more time and effort making them pass it to him no matter what than trying to create space for them to do it themselves. And when he plays like that it's a crying shame that he doesn't play further forward. What's the use in having him deep if he doesn't want to pass it to anyone.

Dirky Kuyt. I really like him, I will always have time for him but he shouldn't have played ahead of Carroll. And this season he's looked more like roadkill than a Duracell bunny. He's been made into a right midfielder, which he isn't so unless we're going to play him as a support striker or around the box he's useless on the ball and with his current problems he's even usless of it. It was painful watching him today, not because he wasn't trying his best but because you could see it everytime he got the ball it wasn't going to come of anything. But on the subject of trying. Stewart Downing was frankly fucking embarassing today. Every Liverpool player should be given support, time and all those clichés but Downing isn't a Liverpool player. He is a Boro player leaching a paycheck at Liverpool. I have used this quote far too often, but I feel it's become the symbol of Downing's time at Liverpool.

I can accept failure, everyone fails at something. But I can't accept not trying.

I had forgotten that he was playing until he decided to get himselves somewhere on the match records by making sure that he was the only player to pick up a booking by fouling Rafael after he had given the ball away. So not only did he stop us getting a counter after Rafael had lost the ball he put us on the defense and picked up a yellow. Play Shelvey instead if Bellamy can't play. At least he will try. Downing doesn't even provide an option to pass to so he's useless in that regard and when someone literally runs with the ball to him and hands it to him to make something of it he makes a first touch pass and runs away from the ball. And his defensive side is awful. When Rafael had his weak shot at goal not only did he get the ball past Downing, Downing just stood still and when he finally snapped to he ran in front of Enrique preventing him to get back in time to cover. I know we should never give up on one of our own but I have no connection with Downing. It feels really hard wanting someone to succeed who doesn't seem to want it himself. He looks like a 6 year old out on the pitch sometimes. If it doesn't suit him he won't do it. And when anything goes against him he looks like he wants to run and hide under his mommy's skirt and close his eyes until the problem goes away. He doesn't just look he will chicken out of every confrontation he pre-emptively does everything in his power to avoid being in a position to be involved in it. I'll be amazed if he'll be here come September 1st. Makes Robbie Keane like an integral part of Liverpool in comparison.


Most frustrating of all was when we finally tried it was during injury time and the fourth official's board was like an alarm clock telling them to wake the fuck up and make something happen. There was no intent, spirit, fight. Far too many players simply didn't want to win today and that's inexcusable against our fiercest rivals.

[Hinesy]

Let him without sin cast the first stone:
Presumably Ferguson thinks Suarez is a disgrace because he didn't shake hands, so will he sack Ferdinand from his team? Or was it for kicking a ball away at half time? Then he'll be sacking his whole team for persistent and consistent referee baiting. Or was it shenanigans in the tunnel? Nope, can't be that cos his team has been found wanting there before too.
Perhaps its Luis' character? Hmmm then again he lets a striker who was found fucking grannies, a defender who misses drugs tests and organises girls for Christmas parties for the 'lads' and left footed winger who fucked his brother's wife for years...

unless he thinks the niceties of the game should be adhered to... mind you how many times did he refuse to appear on SKY and BBC? Can't be that then...

Nope can't work it out. Oh wait, that's it.. You're a hypocritical c*nt.

[Garstonite]

If Utd go on to lift the title, then we must accept that we are symptomatic of the reason why. This is not a great Manchester United side. From DeGea, to Evans and Ferdinand to their pedestrian midfield (minus Valencia) and the overrated Welbeck. And yet they find themselves top of the league because too many sides set-up against them based of the legacy Alex Ferguson has built. For that, you have to give them credit.

Having said that, I thought we played relatively well in the first half.  But Johnson and the enigmatic Suarez aside, you look across the side and wonder where that spark is going to emerge. The lacklustre Kuyt? The timid Downing?

‘Mentality’ was one of Rafa’s favoured buzzwords. It’s a hackneyed phrase but it’s also Downing’s greatest obstacle. He doesn’t believe in his ability enough and at his age, you have to believe that stumbling block is irreparable.

As for second half, we were made to pay for two lapses in concentration – much like they did in the FA Cup. We offered Scholes the freedom of the park – again. But you also have to admire his ability to find space and utilise it. You can’t afford five minutes off at somewhere like Old Trafford. You need to be switched on for 90 minutes. Did we get caught up in the controversy that spilled into the half time break? You’d have to say we did.

Lastly, the handshakes and Evra’s celebrations... pfft. The media are the real villains in this saga. Give Geoff Shreeves an eight match ban.

[Aristotle]

‘Mentality’ was one of Rafa’s favoured buzzwords. It’s a hackneyed phrase but it’s also Downing’s greatest obstacle. He doesn’t believe in his ability enough and at his age, you have to believe that stumbling block is irreparable.

Said as much after the Bolton game.

Some of the players seem painfully struck with what is becoming the standard mentality for English based players and that's accepting mediocrity for a paycheck. To quote myself from a few months ago, it still feels the same way and even though Charlie Adam is from Scotland, the same still applies.

I just can't shake the feeling that too many of our regulars feel they have peaked already and aren't ready to put it all on the line to go further. In a sense it's what kept the FA cup going all these years and in another what's becoming the standard in the English game. You do enough and hope to hit a cup run because that is all your career will ever be. I think it's why we have a very decent shot of winning both the cups, but not a snowball's chance in hell of doing the league.

Kenny might be a winner. In fact that's all he knows and given the time that mindset will be firmly imprinted into the likes of Henderson, Kelly, Spearing, Shelvey et al. But for the others, that's time we don't have and a luxury we can't afford. We went for "proven quality" and in theory reliability and buying something you know makes sense. But the harsh reality of the matter is that we've traded in racecars for minivans.

This is the worst Manc team in years and they're still competing for the title because regardless of any correlation with reality they go out onto the pitch thinking they have already won the game and now it's just a formality of making it happen. We don't have that. If our team could be described in a sentence it'd be "I'm terribly sorry I don't mean to intrude but if we could in any way possible win today that'd be great."

Our players don't go out to win, they go out because it's in their contracts that they have to show up.

[Terry de Niro]

We needed battlers out there today but for back 4 and Pepe aside we were lacking in abundance.
I can accept a defeat if we show a bit of passion and effort but that was sadly lacking earlier on.
Gerrard was playing so deep at times that I'd swear Pepe was our attacking midfielder.
Kuyt and Downing were non-existent, and I know it's hindsight, but I would have played Adam instead of Downing and Bellamy instead of Kuyt. This could have helped with Gerrard being more of an attacking threat and Luis getting more support up front from Bellamy.
A big chance wasted, as a few people have already said that this Man United team are not that good and I just feel that had we of gone at that from the start we would have got something out of that match.

The Suarez/Evra thing should have a big line drawn underneath it now. As much as I supported Luis to the hilt it's gone and we should be just talking about football now and nothing else.

Oh, and Fergie should keep his fucking big purple nose out of our business and concentrate on sorting his own little angels out..

[Vulmea]

Thought Suarez had to shake hands I've seen the subtle drop of Evra's hand making it doubly difficult for Suarez, you can see Evra looking directly at the camera - he's a sly bastard and thats for sure - showed himself up at the end prancing about like a 3 year old - also digaraced himself in the tunnel at half time allegedly - I see Sky aren't making that the story though - but regardless if Suarez couldn't shake hands then he shouldn't have started imo - his game looked disjointed and uncontrolled, sure he didn't get the ball much but he didn't bring his normal game.

Is Suarez a member of the PFA? Gordon Taylor doesn't seem to think so.

Suarez and Evra have history - just as Wayne Bridge and Terry - its a personal thing and thats that - but Ferdinands refusal - on what basis? Surely that has greater implications? Yet he seems to be exempt from criticism?

Said before jury is out with Downing - my Dad reckons he's bottleless, me son reckons he's short of confidence, I'm not sure but he was anonymous today and I'm swaying more each week to my Dad's view.

Interesting thoughts on Gerrard - he did have a chance to impose himself and didn't, time and again he could have closed Scholes  and didn't - much like the accusations of the whole team playing Uniteds reputation not the team in front of them Gerrard seemed to be playing the 26 year old scholes that blew him away at England training - not the old man they have now

Neither Bellamy nor Carroll would be pleased not starting this one, makes you wonder what was in Kenny's head. Neither looked great when they did arrive.

On the match I thought we got what we deserved - created very little, showed little belief or team spirit - it was a dull lifeless  game though I felt - Valencia is a very good player and Rafael much as I can't stand the bloke is as committed a player as you'll find

[Degs]

To try and analyse today's match on football alone is an exercise in futility.
Football wasn't the story today it was the victim caught in the crossfire of 2 sets of players who clearly have an issue with each other.  With the benefit of hindsight the decision to start Suarez was a mistake by Dalglish, the decision to refuse a handshake (and that's what he did) by Suarez was a mistake and the 2 goals were mistakes.

The sad thing is that for the first 45 minutes of football we looked good.  We set up with 2 solid lines of 4, Henderson was allowed to break his midfield line but usually slotted in to make a 5 man midfield.  The plan was to repeat what happened in the FA Cup - to keep it tight and bring on impact subs Bellamy and one of Adam/Carroll to make a push against tired legs. Like at Anfield we were happy to allow players such as Carrick and Scholes to pass the ball in neat, yet ineffective, triangles in front of us. Kenny's weapon of choice against Ferguson this season seems to be one of attrition.

From minute 1 however it seemed that emotion was the over-riding issue, with Evra looking to take out Suarez straight away and managing only to get Ferdinand. As the first half progressed though emotions died down and we looked good. We allowed their midfield so far into our half and only so far, there was an invisible line on the pitch about 15 yards into our half where we decided to camp as a solid 4/5.  This deep midfield line and the resultant deep defensive line negated the best assets of Welbeck and co., their pace, there was no opportunity to hit the ball over Skrtel and Agger to run into space, as shown by the amount of offsides given against them all game: 0.  The Mancs on the other hand played a higher line that resulted in Ferdinand having to make a goal saving tackle from Suarez. When we were on the ball we played good football, we were hitting one-two's with regularity, the movement off the ball was good, and the support from the full-backs was excellent.  While Carroll has looked better we're still too formulaic with him in the side, desperate to get the ball wide and hit it in at such a panicked pace that most of the time he, or his support, are yet to get in the box, today we were more unpredictable.  The only danger from them seemed to be coming from Valencia, who was exposing Enrique's biggest flaw (he thinks he's twice as strong as he is) while Downing provided no support in an attacking or a defensive sense.

Towards the end of the half though the Mancs were looking for an excuse to go after Suarez following the handshake snub and petulant kick of the ball away from Suarez at the end gave them their excuse.  Despite the best efforts of Skrtel and co. to shield Suarez on the way into the tunnel a melee ensued.  This melee was to provide the catalyst to our downfall.

As the second half started mistakes were being made and it lead to 2 quick goals from the Mancs.  There's no point to dwell on this as the goals were due to a lack of concentration that surely stemmed from the half time fracas.  In 5 minutes we had lost our focus and the game.  Our gameplan was suddenly now void, there was no use playing a system that allowed their midfield to pass the ball around at will, they would do that for 45 minutes and go home happy.

Kenny had to change something and he kept his cool and did nothing for 10 minutes, allowing the game to cool and not risking pushing on for fear of completely losing the match before the hour. When he did make a change it was to remove the woeful Downing, and the man who had lost his focus most of all: Spearing.  With the change in personnel came a change in system but unfortunately this wasn't matched with a change in mindset.  Removing Spearing and the team not responding with an increased pace and urgency meant the midfield was now weakened while Suarez and Carroll stood isolated at the front.

This for me is the biggest problem we now have.  Around the 65th minute Steven Gerrard popped up at left-back to mop up a poor Skrtel pass. Steven Gerrard is a goal machine, he scores, he creates and he provides that missing piece between midfield and the striker.  He is what Kaka was at Milan, what Iniesta is to Barca and what David Silva now is at Man City - he is the lockpicker and the master of playing "in the hole".  Since his return however we have seen him play in a deep central midfield role - neutered. He doesn't play the central midfield role badly, he tracks, tackles, passes and he does it well, but he isn't one of the best players in the world when he does so, he's decent and nothing more, he's Scott Parker, he's Gareth Barry.  Jordan Henderson meanwhile has been entrusted with the role that Gerrard plays so naturally and he has yet to show why, he's anonymous going forward and rushed in possession, he has the skills to do what Gerrard is doing currently but not what Gerrard is famed for.  There is a mismatch in our midfield that must be sorted. 

Henderson has 1 goal in 26 games this season, Gerrard has 5 in 15.  I don't see the reason these 2 players are in each other's position.
Adam came on and again set up a goal, a lucky one but courtesy of a great delivery, as the clock wound down we finally found the attitude that we needed but it was too little too late.

All in all the performances against City, Spurs and the first half performance today shows to me that given a period of time and proper transfers being brought in Kenny can make a great team.  He plays the right football and does have enough tactical nous to get results.  Unfortunately though Kenny's biggest test comes in man-management.  Suarez now seems to act with impunity and disregard, at worst he can be seen as blatantly disrespectful, at best naive. Kenny needs to rein him in and the constant support is now more detrimental to us, Kenny needs to drag him up in private and tell him to stop acting up, if he carries on like this his days are numbered.

[killer-heels]

Cannot really add more except what a player Valencia is. If we had him, or a player of that ilk, we would have made a lot ore of the space we had on the wings. Instead, we had Kuyt and Downing.

[lachesis]

Couldn't even be arsed trying to post in the after match thread. Too busy and fast moving to really go into detail.
Just a few points beforehand: First the handshake - who gives a shite? No point over analysing it or anything.  Second, Ferdinands tackle on Suarez was a good one and any calls for red cards were just dreams of the desparate.

* * *

Kenny got it completely wrong against United. That much is clear. What influence Clarke had on the lineup and tactics is debatable but it's happened a few times now this season and there comes a time when you have to question aspects of the club and/or decisions that are being made.
Manchester Uniteds last six goals conceded are as follows:

Liverpool: Corner kick, header from Agger
Liverpool: Long ball, knocked down to Kuyt, goal.
Chelsea: Cross low across the box, turned into goal by Evans
Chelsea: Cross by Torres, volley by Mata back post
Chelsea: Free kick, crossed into David Luiz. Comes off United player for own goal
Liverpool: Free kick, crossed into box. Bobbled off defender, Suarez pokes home goal.

Playing Suarez as a lone striker against Ferdinand and Evans was never going to be any real trouble given our predominant playing style. The team has got plenty of stick this season for it's persistent crossing, lack of quality and/or numbers in the box. Yet we continue to be the team that leads the attempts of crosses attempted. Today I really didn't see that as often during the game. Johnson who was our main width outlet, chose to come inside numerous times and have a stab with his left foot (almost successful on a couple of occassions too). If any game hinted that endless crossing might bear fruits it was this one, especially with De Gea between the sticks. And we seem to completely change the system despite this.

While I didn't think Andy Carroll was right for Spurs, today I thought he was built to be the outlet for us. Downing is struggling and provided nothing. Carroll up front with Suarez playing on the left side would have been ideal and he probably would have got some joy against the quick but rash Rafael. Carroll I feel has arrived now, he looked a different player with a defferent mentality today, he was getting pissed off when players seemed unable to read what he was attempting and had a particular go at Bellamy when he tried a gentle pass back to him that went out of play. He won't be suitable for every game but when they come round he must play.

Several players had shocking games. Kuyt had an awful game, Spearing was culpable for the second goal and was bullied by Welbeck who advanced onto our defence time and again with ease. Henderson, Gerrard and Downing were conspicuous by their absence during the game.

I thought in general the defence did as well as could be humanly expected with such poor support from midfield. When the pressure was building the midfield three should have rolled their sleeves up and dug in deep. As it was Scholes pulled the strings in the space between midfield and Suarez, Carrick sat in the middle and fed balls through to Welbeck with ease and generally ball and players went through our midfield like water through a sieve.

Having said that, we were quite evenly matched in the first half I thought. Neither team had concerted pressure round the area but United maybe should have gone in ahead with that Scholes header.

Second half and we had the worst start imaginable with that corner. Then Jay fucked up and gifted them a quick second. Then, not for the first time this season we just looked dishevelled. We seem to just fall apart, wayward passes, players not really knowing where they were meant to be, lack of determination and effort and United popped it round us at one point quite easily. Then we sort of got a foothold back in the game and put together some sequences of football with more than four passes and after the changes it culminated in a goal from a free kick. Then it seemed like we turned up properly for the last 10-15 minutes but it was too little, too late.

I don't think any United fan would be crowing about 'vintage performances' or anything. But they know how to win league titles. You can play shite, you just have to be less shite than the opposition which is something we really struggle with.

I don't know where we're headed at the moment. I certainly don't feel we are moving forward put it that way.

[Hinesy]

This has been moved here earlier as the post match thread has descended into seperate camps of body language experts and masons. Lets try and deal with the match not the before and afters in this thread ta.

[Anywhichwayicant]

I've thoroughly enjoyed the battle between Enrique and Valencia this season. Two lads that are built like tanks and move like the T.G.V.

No theatrics from either of them, just a good, honest, Man v Man duel.

Thought Enrique dealt with him better yesterday than he had in their previous encounter.

As for the match itself, I was very disappointed to see how effortlessly they moved the ball around, at stages it was like Barcelona v Training Cones, very frustrating.

[rushs-tash]

Really? Valencia has been in good form of late - one of Utd's standout players at present. I've felt that Jose since the Blackburn game as been a little off - first half of the season he was immense, lately though he seems to be thinking too much and trying to be clever without pulling it off.

Anyway what annoyed me was just the lack of urgency from the team. Even at 2-1, ten minutes left - just get at them. We only tried this once the fourth official showed the 3 minutes stoppage time.

Felt let down to be honest, but credit to Adam - got proper stuck in when he came on - looked up for the fight.

Anyway on to Brighton, the next round of the FA Cup and no more handshake theatrics.

[Sangria]

If Utd go on to lift the title, then we must accept that we are symptomatic of the reason why. This is not a great Manchester United side. From DeGea, to Evans and Ferdinand to their pedestrian midfield (minus Valencia) and the overrated Welbeck. And yet they find themselves top of the league because too many sides set-up against them based of the legacy Alex Ferguson has built. For that, you have to give them credit.

Having said that, I thought we played relatively well in the first half.  But Johnson and the enigmatic Suarez aside, you look across the side and wonder where that spark is going to emerge. The lacklustre Kuyt? The timid Downing?

‘Mentality’ was one of Rafa’s favoured buzzwords. It’s a hackneyed phrase but it’s also Downing’s greatest obstacle. He doesn’t believe in his ability enough and at his age, you have to believe that stumbling block is irreparable.

Compare with one of Benitez's big signings who lacked mentality, Babel. Babel's head dropped too easily for Benitez. However, you always get the feeling, reinforced by his twitter antics, that he was always looking for a reason to get his head back up again. Babel was mentally weak but he wanted to be strong, and that endeared him to me.

[Fuzion6]

Compare with one of Benitez's big signings who lacked mentality, Babel. Babel's head dropped too easily for Benitez. However, you always get the feeling, reinforced by his twitter antics, that he was always looking for a reason to get his head back up again. Babel was mentally weak but he wanted to be strong, and that endeared him to me.

Biggest difference between Babel and Downing was that Babel never hid. Even though he was a massive confidence player, Babel would still try to take on the full back and his Olympic speed would at least stretch or give enough of an impression to stretch the game a bit. Downing doesnt even try to take a full back on and his speed is clearly not that great...

[subroc]

I've thoroughly enjoyed the battle between Enrique and Valencia this season. Two lads that are built like tanks and move like the T.G.V.

No theatrics from either of them, just a good, honest, Man v Man duel.

Thought Enrique dealt with him better yesterday than he had in their previous encounter.

As for the match itself, I was very disappointed to see how effortlessly they moved the ball around, at stages it was like Barcelona v Training Cones, very frustrating.

I had a different opinion though - I thought that Enrique was being shredded by Valencia throughout much of the match, to be fair partly due to lack of cover from Downing. He found it difficult to cope with Valencia's superior speed and he could not use his physical strength effectively since Valencia was strong enough to cope.

Watching Valencia and Wellback made me ask why can't we find fast, tricky wingers for Liverpool? Are they really so hard to find?! It seems to be relatively easy for United - wingers are integral to the way they play and they have always made sure that they have at least two good wingers at any one time. We on the other hand either get a winger who is tricky but not terribly fast (riera or Pennant), or a striker converted into a winger who is fast but not particularly tricky (Babel), or an injury crocked winger (kewell), or convert a fullback who is neither fast nor tricky (Aurelio) or convert a striker who is neither fast nor tricky (Kuyt), or worse of all, sign a winger who is neither fast nor tricky nor a threat at all (Downing)...

I agree fully on our poor fluidity compared to them. It is sobering to think that barcelona vs united was like united vs liverpool. We have to improve our pass and move much more and the first thing to do is to get better players who ewre breought up playing that kind of football rather than players who were brought up with English long ball ways...

[Nut/ella]

Performance wise, we were disjointed. We had no rhythm, no pace, no ideas and no proper strategy to attack. Everytime they lost the ball in the final third, and when we got the ball back, it was so frustrating to see us give them so much space and time to get their shape back and to organize themselves and we probably have the slowest counter attacking side in the league, doesn't matter of Bellamy or Suarez are playing as the rest pull them down.
They weren't brilliant per se but they tried well when they had the ball and as the norm of the whole season, I think we are concentrating too much on defense first and attack later. I was the same with Rafa too, but he had a balance to both of them and when counter attacking, we had the proper men to throw forward in quick time not to mention that he had a couple of brilliant players specialized in that area. Under Kenny we seem to have too many players behind the ball and eventually when we get it, we don't know where to threaten the opposition from. Our players are made for an attacking set up, not a counter attacking one and yesterday we clung on to the latter and it didn't do us any favours, leaving Luis stranded up front with fuckall service.

Regarding players, Downing has really been atrocious. My dad (who isn't much of a football freak and only watches cos I do) pointed out to him yesterday and asked me- "is this the guy that runs in a straight line all the time?" I couldn't help but agree. I'd be really disappointed in Kenny if he starts the next game. Luis I think handled the game pretty well though I do think he was fouled by Ferdinand. As much as I trust our defense , I still feel we're a bit susceptible to second balls at set pieces. Happens to anyone, but we just don't seem to have the rub of the luck when it comes to that, so I guess we need more time in the training ground practicing it or to at least add one more player while defending corners.

[peterb17]

henderson spearing and downing as a midfield didn't work and their limitations were exposed by the utd midfield. Henderson lacks drive, Jay sadly lacks top level ability and downing lacks all of the above. We played a midfield that not only wasn't at MU ability level it didn't even have the physicality to upset them. This is the area that needs sorting and sadly I don't think these 3 have got it. I think Henderson has got skill but he needs to grab the game by the scruff of the neck and he doesn't.

[BCCC]

Two of the least impressive teams from both respective club's histories. They made the most of the chaos surrounding half time as they have done many times in the past - not the first time Ferguson has used the old SAS flash bang tactic to his advantage. When the smoke settled we found ourselves 2-0 down. The problem from that point was that we had players in key areas whose fuses were damp and frankly have been for most of the season. Downing can't respond by changing gear and swing the tide as apposed to Valencia who is in a different league to him.

For our spark and dry powder we have to rely on an aging Welshman who's knees have seen better days yet still manages to pull a side forward and make it believe in itself.

How we have managed to let Enrique deal with Valencia in a one on one situation for two games running when all the signs were there at Anfield that he could be the difference was disappointing.

[Nut/ella]

henderson spearing and downing as a midfield didn't work and their limitations were exposed by the utd midfield. Henderson lacks drive, Jay sadly lacks top level ability and downing lacks all of the above. We played a midfield that not only wasn't at MU ability level it didn't even have the physicality to upset them. This is the area that needs sorting and sadly I don't think these 3 have got it. I think Henderson has got skill but he needs to grab the game by the scruff of the neck and he doesn't.

Henderson I think is brilliant especially at pressing down. Don't let the price tag boggle you mate, but he's suitable for good pass and move football and he'd really compliment Lucas well when he returns. And personally, I think Jay is a cracking little player. Downing is meh- lost in the big football club that is Liverpool FC.

[Circa1892]

We've played the same since the fucking Houllier days, regardless of personnel.

Lethargic for 70 minutes, then sensational for 25 before eventually and inevitably running out of time.

[scouse neapolitan]

I’ll doubtlessly be panned for this, but I’m going to say it anyway.... I’ve been saying it for years but if you haven’t got creativity, vision, speed  in your team and you rely on huff and puff workhorses, industry and water carriers you’re fucked...I reckon we’ve got more overpriced dead wood around now than at any time in the last 15 years...This isn’t disloyalty to Kenny, ‘in his first spell there was creativity and guile in abundance.....thanks to Kenny....it's just that I don’t rate the people who’ve been drafted in full stop....(and I wasn’t convinced when they were brought in either, so I’m not being a smartarse after the event..... )...All this “bedding in” shite doesn’t wash with me I’m afraid...I don’t think the right players were identified and brought into the club at vastly inflated prices....
Pass and move is too much of a challenge for players who don’t have  big enough footballing brains, good feet, good first touch and/or speed.......What I’d give (and I daresay Stevie would too) ,to have the likes of Arteta, Modric, Scholes, Aquilani (dare I mention him) playing in the middle of the park....
The Cups are no compensation for a strong challenge in the League......I personally want my Liverpool team to be elegant as well as being physically and mentally strong..........Sorry about the outburst...I’ll fuck off  back into hibernation now....

[Cpt_Reina]

One of the most frustrating aspects of Kenny's management for me has been his insistence of playing Luis up front on his own.

He can do, he's just not that good at it. And it doesnt get the best out of him.

He's not all that fast, nor is he content to simply run the line or hold the ball up. He wants to play, and he wants the ball. That's when he's at his most dangerous, when he's in possession of the second ball. Not when he's scrapping to get the first one or holding it up if he manages to do so.

He's so much more dangerous when he's allowed to just wander and find space, and the ball. And yet Kenny seems determined to make him the figurehead of our attack, it negates so much of his game when he's crowded out as he so often is when up there alone.

At Ajax he flourished when he had someone else up there worrying about holding the ball up and occupying the CBs. It meant he could concentrate on slipping between the crack as opposed to holding the bastards off for 30 seconds whilst our midfielders catch up. Let Carroll do that, he's shown over the past few games he can, so let him. And let Suarez do what he's best at.

What else is there to say about the match? We were awful. Our heads seemed clouded and slow. Misplaced passes and even passing to areas of the pitch where there wasnt a horrible white shirt to be seen.

Downing was invisible. The first I saw of him was when he was taken off. And thank god he was. Kuyt wasnt much better. His winner against them in the cup and subsequent goal against Wolves did nothing but paper over the cracks. He's been awful this year and needs to be dropped sooner rather then later. Ive never been a fan of the Johnson on the wing school of thought but now might be the time to try it.

The less said about our CMs the better. They were all poor.

The only people to come out of this with any credit were Skrtel and Agger. Thank fuck for Carra's injury earlier on in the season, I dread to think where we'd be without it.

A truly terrible performance.

[Andy @ Allerton!]

Both teams were largely piss poor in the first half. Terrible defending for both goals. Got away with Rooney bladdering a ball wide later on. Good poachers goal from Suarez. Referee was a joke from the second half onward. He was somewhat biased first half and got steadily worse as the game went on. Did well at the end. Told Evra to calm down three times and got in the way when that cowardly little shithouse was jumping around like a demented jack-in-the-box at the end.

We didn't do enough to win. Shit game. FA cup next. Forget about it and move on.

[Rafa_La]

Our players don't go out to win, they go out because it's in their contracts that they have to show up.

Big glitch then yesterday.

We had Reina & the backs.  We had Luisito up front.

Mid-field  MIA

Commentary was Liverpool should be going forward, going forward, going yada yada yada.

Just did not happen.

Daft enough to think they would shed blood.

Was that a Premier League match? 

[Red_Isle_Chap]

You know what we were really poor until the subs started to be made. As always bellamy made a difference, and I honestly think we looked a lot better with him, carroll and adam on the pitch. That being said we couldn't have looked a lot worse really.

When the 2nd for that lot went in, a few of us in the pub were expecting them to get a few more. I know Jay was at fault for the 2nd, but taking off our only holding mid seemed like suicide to me. In a way we got away with it, scored a goal and pressed (kinda) for the second.

It was always going to be a twatish game, they always are at Mos Eisley (the 4-1 being the only odd one out in at least a decade if not more)

What worries me, far far more than the loss, is out now seemingly inability to pass the ball. We're becoming very shit at it very quickly, and unfotunatly it's going to stay this way until the summer. We're going to need more investment in the squad, and i hate to say it, we're going to need to go all out to get someone creative into that midfield. Dunno who, how much, what sort of wages, but it needs to be addressed.

The other thing that worries me is that other than probably 2 games this season, our pressing has been wank. We were awful at it again. If we're going to play this 451 with Luis up top, then we have to be tireless when the opposition have the ball and win it back further up the pitch. Otherwise we'll just see the frankly painful "for fucks sake lump it anywhere" drivel that we played for 60 minutes. It's funny how it all but stopped the moment bellamy, carroll and adam came on. Once we had a target man up top, we didn't use that "out" ball.

I'll be honest I think Carroll needs to be starting every game now, with Luis either on the left/right of a 3 behind him, to get the best out of this team. We need to have a massive look at that midfield in the summer though. Without Lucas we've looked abysmal in most (not all, but most) games. We're conceding a helluva lot of pitch when the opposition have the ball, and when we do win it back we either lump it, or meander up the pitch like a drunken 80 year old after a christmas dinner.

Lots of work to be done to be honest.

[leivapool]

henderson spearing and downing as a midfield didn't work and their limitations were exposed by the utd midfield. Henderson lacks drive, Jay sadly lacks top level ability and downing lacks all of the above. We played a midfield that not only wasn't at MU ability level it didn't even have the physicality to upset them. This is the area that needs sorting and sadly I don't think these 3 have got it. I think Henderson has got skill but he needs to grab the game by the scruff of the neck and he doesn't.

Midfield, midfield, midfield.  Until we get this sorted we are going to continue to struggle.  We were not only outplayed by United's pensioners, but out-thought.  We lack quality and it shows.

In central midfield only Lucas and Gerrard are currently of the level we require.  Adam and Spearing are at best squad players.  Henderson has all the right qualities but is still very raw, and Shelvey is still abit of an unknown quantity.  We're unlucky to have lost the usually fit Lucas, but maybe it will expose the reality of our midfield situation - lack of quality and over-dependence on one player.

I'm not one of those who thinks Gerrard shouldn't play CM, I'm happy to see him in there if we have a quality attacking midfielder linking up the play in front of him , say an Aquilani type.  The problem is we don't, so if Gerrard plays centre mid we fill the positions around him with square pegs in round holes.  At this moment in time Henderson is not an atacking mid so it's strange to see Gerrard playing further back than Jordan.  Having said that, Spearing and Henderson are both young, and inexperienced in Spearings case, so maybe Kenny thought Gerrards expereince would help if he was deeper.?  Either ways, it couldn't have looked further from a cohesive unit if it had tried.

There were plenty of times yesterday where we had possession of the ball and looked completely bereft of ideas of what to do with it.  I've criticised Adam plenty, but the lack of options may partly explain why he tries the impossible ball sometimes.  Furthermore, What are our tactics?  What system are we playing?  At the moment it seems that we are relying on individual moments of brilliance to win us games and create chances, rather than having a genuine team plan.  As someone has pointed out already we have so little creativity it's embarrassing.

Wide midfielders  Dear oh dear.  I'm almost speechless.  I can cut Kuyt a bit of slack becuase for all his weaknesses with the ball, he really does protect the FB pretty well, I personally thought he was OK yesterday.  Downing on the otherhand not only left Enrique out to dry too many times, but he's as insipid on the ball as can be.  I find his lack of fight pretty inexcusable, an it's hasn't just shown during this game.

The problem for Kenny though is who does he play if he doesn't play Kuyt and Downing?  Bellamy is far better when not played too often, and Maxi didn't even make the squad yesterday.  Henderson on the right has been shown not to be his position, and Gerrard is really wasted there.  If we did put Gerrard on the right who goes in the middle?

So for all the criticisms of the wide players we have, our options are pretty limited. We have:
Kuyt 30+
Maxi 30+
Bellamy 30+
Downing 27 but currently so out of form it's scary

I strongly  believe that scoring goals and the strikers are not our problem.  Last season our defence was shaky; that has been rectified this season and our defence play as a cohesive unit, built on the understanding between Skrtel and Agger.  We have 3 FB's who both play to the required standard and are versatile, i.e Johnson can play on the right or left.  Until we get the same sort of thing going in midfield we are not goinig to challenge for the top four, let alone the title.  We could have had the best two strikers in the world out there yesterday,  they wouldn't have made one iota of difference to the result.  We created nothing in the midfield, we couldn't keep the ball, and we couldn't win it back when Man U had it.

We need to sort out our engine room and wide midfielders, and for me buying a quality versatile central midfielder needs to be prioritised.  A quality wide midfielder who can genuinely add to the squad will also be very nice.

Finally YNWA Luis Suarez.

[DanA]

I’ll doubtlessly be panned for this, but I’m going to say it anyway.... I’ve been saying it for years but if you haven’t got creativity, vision, speed  in your team and you rely on huff and puff workhorses, industry and water carriers you’re fucked...I reckon we’ve got more overpriced dead wood around now than at any time in the last 15 years...This isn’t disloyalty to Kenny, ‘in his first spell there was creativity and guile in abundance.....thanks to Kenny....it's just that I don’t rate the people who’ve been drafted in full stop....(and I wasn’t convinced when they were brought in either, so I’m not being a smartarse after the event..... )...All this “bedding in” shite doesn’t wash with me I’m afraid...I don’t think the right players were identified and brought into the club at vastly inflated prices....
Pass and move is too much of a challenge for players who don’t have  big enough footballing brains, good feet, good first touch and/or speed.......What I’d give (and I daresay Stevie would too) ,to have the likes of Arteta, Modric, Scholes, Aquilani (dare I mention him) playing in the middle of the park....
The Cups are no compensation for a strong challenge in the League......I personally want my Liverpool team to be elegant as well as being physically and mentally strong..........Sorry about the outburst...I’ll fuck off  back into hibernation now....

I completely disagree. We are missing the top line talent but I think nobody in this squad is dead wood. It's my view that they are all good players. Some don't fit what we need but they are still good players.

I think this one goes squarely on Kenny getting it tactically wrong.  Kenny wanted us to play on the counter which I can understand but we'd have been much better off against Evans, Ferdinand & De Gea to have Andy Carroll up front. And why after finding a good corner setup that immediately bore fruit did we stop using it?

It is my feeling that we should play Bellamy or Carroll up front. We either want speed to hit on the counter or to batter them with Carroll. So many long balls were sent up and Suarez didn't even contest them. I'd rather have Suarez coming in off the wing.

Ultimately though it was the same thing we've seen every game. Not linking midfield with attack well enough (by wingers or from the center) and lacking a genuine defensive midfielder. Had we those two things I think we'd have been much better.

[Derzyjudek]

We had a game plan...hope United dont score...that was it.

It was a gutless,spineless,shambolic,hopeless display....oh and our players need to be reminded that you CAN fuckin tackle...if you can be arsed!

[Zlen]

Pass and move, the dream that was nowhere to be seen.
What are we gaining by not pressing teams at all but a chance to enjoy two 37 year olds command and dominate the midfield.

It was a poor performance in nearly every aspect.
Our CB's were okay, Johnson too and that's about it from what I saw.
I am developing an honest amount of dislike for Stewart Downing and his alibi play. Someone like that is toxic to our attacking gameplay, he does precious little for the team and goes out of his way to avoid taking on responsibility.

We lost and that is ok, but we we're very poor, our league form is abysmal and we've just ignored a transfer window. Hope we turn a corner after these cup games and put a strong run if possible.

[DanA]

I agree with Lievapool. We are short a DM, AM & Winger. We really need to replace Spearing, Maxi & Kuyt with players in these three positions that offer a bit more. These players are all okay but we need better to move to the next level. Guys like Lucas Moura & Fernando Reges need to be looked at.

[vagabond]

I cannot help but feel that the soap opera that is the premiership dictated the need for a public and televised handshake. As some have said, if this was handled maturely and ethically, then this initial meeting would have taken place at a more private location where it would have been possible to reach a fair resolving of issues.
I do not mean to sound this as a conspiracy but I am convinced that man's subconscious need for drama has fueled this entire episode.

[socrates the sophist]

I think some of the lads are being too harsh. I think the first-half against Man U was the best we played this season. We controlled the tempo and moved the ball about well. Could have even nicked a goal from Suarez chance (which Ferdinand cleanly tackled) or Johnson's shot. We conceded two needless goals really. Hemderson flicked the ball onto Rooney (which shouldn't happen) and Spearing lost the ball to Valencia. It took us a bit of time to get back in the game. The only thing form is I want to see Charlie taking all the set-pieces. That's his best quality yet we are letting Gerard, Bellamy and Downing take them ahead of Charlie. It drives me mad. The other thing is that Gerard, playing deep, was too slow on the ball. He was borderline casual actually. I'd like to see him uptop with Suarez. I really feel we robbed because I never really felt threatned by them throughout the match.

[redmonkey]

United are defensively weak with a dodgy keeper, so why we played that formation with Suarez on his own upfront is beyond me.  We handed them the initiative.  Kuyt, and especially Downing, are so ineffectual that we have to start with Bellamy and Carrol in most games.  We can then hopefully get the best out of Suarez.  We've got to play people who can actually put the ball in the back of the net.

[Groundskeeper Willie]

I'm fed up of a pass, immediate pass back and little movement, then rinse and repeat then when we get pressed, kick it up to Carroll.

Minus:
3. We did at the start of the season, we didn't today.

Agree with this and I´ve been thinking about it recently. Before Christmas we were playing much better going forward, creating lots of chances. But our defensive play was shaky at times. Now, we are rock solid at the back, but are left wanting going forward and are creating much less.

Why is this? Any theories out there?

Seems to me that we´ve not yet been able to play well at both ends of the pitch at the same time. Haven´t found the right balance yet, but we need to asap.

[Groundskeeper Willie]

Let him without sin cast the first stone:
Presumably Ferguson thinks Suarez is a disgrace because he didn't shake hands, so will he sack Ferdinand from his team? Or was it for kicking a ball away at half time? Then he'll be sacking his whole team for persistent and consistent referee baiting. Or was it shenanigans in the tunnel? Nope, can't be that cos his team has been found wanting there before too.
Perhaps its Luis' character? Hmmm then again he lets a striker who was found fucking grannies, a defender who misses drugs tests and organises girls for Christmas parties for the 'lads' and left footed winger who fucked his brother's wife for years...

unless he thinks the niceties of the game should be adhered to... mind you how many times did he refuse to appear on SKY and BBC? Can't be that then...

Nope can't work it out. Oh wait, that's it.. You're a hypocritical c*nt.

I love you hinesy.

[steveeastend]

I am especially dissapointed with the tactial set up and the tatical discipline of some players.

Clarke pointed out in his pre match interview that he knows exactly what to do against ManU. But after seeing Gerrard alongside Spearing in holding midfield I do wonder where he was coming from as the only positives in the recent games was the Adam-Spearing pairing in holding midifield, being a good substitute for Lucas. Why change that in such an important away game?

The discpline of Gerrard in holding midfield was very bad but this didn´t come out of the blue, as it happened before. Why not playing him infront of Adam and Spearing and let them two do the workrate for defending for him? Big mistake IMO.

Furthermore I couldn´t agree more on Downing. This was the worst performance of a Liverpool player in a very, very long time. No tactical discipline, no effort, no work rate, nothing. After seeing Bellamy and Johnson playing some awesome football together recently I cannot see the reason for the change on the left side as well.

Besides that, our flaws within the squad and especially in the first eleven were shown in a drastic way. ManU wasn´t really good were they?

At the moment, only our defense is more or less right with having three, maybe four players at their peak being able to carry a game week in week out. The midfield is a disaster at the moment, players having to carry the game being either past their best fitness (Bellamy, Gerrard, Maxi, Kuyt), too young (Spearing, Henderson, Shelvey) or simply not good enough for the requirements (Downing). Adam slowly adopted to the game but it´s still too early to make an ojective statement here as his role in this midifield changed from month to month.
Our flaws in attack are obvious, it was clear from the very beginning that with two strikers only there is no way to compete for top 4. In contrast to the rest of our summer activities, there is absolutely no way to find reasons for making such a massive mistake.

We are only 4 points better then last year. Four.  But we still need 4th in order to attract better players in summer. So no matter how, as undeserved it may be, it would help us big time.

Kenny started to react on all this even during this game, something he doesn´t do normally. Obviously he knows how much is there to fix for him and Comolli in the near future.  Everybody still thinking we will be coming good without major investments lives in dream land, sorry. And this includes the people in charge at our club.

[RedRush]

Was it a live Premier League football match? I could have sworn I was watching a play written by one Alex Ferguson. There's the victim Evra given the armband and his teammates all raring to go to make a stand against the racist club. And then there's the villain Suarez, surrounded by teammates leaden-footed by doubts and guilt over supporting the villain (hence the lack of support for most of the game). With moral and God on Evra's side, surely there can only be one outcome, one that will allow the vindicated victim to dance around the stadium happily at the end, with moral victory in hand. An outcome that allows the script writer to hastily add a moral piece on why the villain shouldn't ever be allowed to play football for Liverpool ever again.

We, as a club, really fucked up big time in such an important match. Again.

I'd hope to watch a script written by me, where the real victim of this whole episode, Luisito, scores a hattrick, thereby silencing the toilet and the cocksucking media for a while. Instead what I watched really pissed me to no end. I'm on Luis' side about not shaking the hand of a man who lied in order to sabotage his career in England all the way. And if I'm a teammate of his, it would be a day where I bust my gut getting to every single ball in order to win this match. Hell, even if it wasn't for Luis, it was a match against the Mancs. That alone would have been sufficient reason to play above our capabilities. Instead of that, we had players who didn't turn up at all, and that includes the captain of the club himself, not just Downing or Kuyt, or Enrique.

I said in the last roundtable that the Bolton bollocking was clearly wearing off, and players will be reverting to type. I wasn't wrong at all. We have a bunch of pussies playing for our club now.

It's really scary that we did the double over a much better United side in 2008/09, including the 4-1 trashing, when they had players like Ronaldo, Tevez and Rooney, Vidic, et all, and with others like Ferdinand and Van Der Sar were still at their prime. The United side of today is nowhere near that side. They were clearly there for the taking yesterday, except our players read Mr Ferguson's script and restricted themselves from pressing their geriatric midfield or to attack De Gea's goal.
 
Ten minutes into the match, it was already clear to me that Enrique wasn't ready yet (probably rushed back too soon), while Downing was going to be an absolute disaster. I was right. I just didn't understand why they weren't taken off earlier. And why must Gerrard play CM? It is clearly not his best position. Why is he and Spearing playing so deep, giving up 15m to a 37 year old whenever they've got the ball? Why play Suarez alone upfront? Is it all tactics? If it is, it's really Hodgsonesque.
 
When we scored, I thought it was game on. But wait a minute... the goal didn't stir us up one bit. We were still not interested in taking the game to them, until the 90th minute.
 
The saving grace in this sorry afternoon soap was Reina, Agger, Skrtel, Johnson, Suarez (and the subs who tried to do something - Bellamy, Carroll, Adam) and the travelling fans. They were up for this, the travelling fans were in full voice. Too bad many of our players are bottlers. What a massive letdown for the fans. This really saddens me the most.
 
Oh, did I mention Downing? Toxic.