Topic: Old photos of and around Liverpool

[vicgill]

I know you are mate.. 

How are you mate, I hope to come over sometime in february 

[Terry de Niro]

How are you mate, I hope to come over sometime in february 

I'm sound mate.
Hopefully we can have a meet up.
Don't forget me duty frees..   

[monkeyharris]

Monkey mate they are class, thanks for showing them. I love maps, my mrs thinks I'm crackers

I love maps too..my missus tolerates that but she does look at me funny for another habit that sadly advancing technology has robbed me of over the years. Whenever we've moved house over the years (not for a good few now) my favourite way of gaining local knowledge of the new area was reading the yellow pages and Thomson local cover to cover...fuck all in them now sadly....

[alfonso]

Don't know if this has been posted before:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/liverpool/localhistory/mersey_times/issue_06/gallery.shtml

[scouserdave]

Recent photo of old stuff. I found a load of old Liverpool Georgian and Victorian property deeds in the derelict Everton Library about 8 yrs back. Phoned Liverpool Council about them, but they couldn't give a toss. At the time, the cupboard they were in was covered in paint flakes, water and bird shit. The vandals were gaining access into the building as well. So I liberated them. Spoke to another Liverpool councilor about them in Feb 2005 at the inaugural meeting of the Friends of Liverpool Monuments. Said he'd get back to me. Still waiting

[Big Red Richie]

Don't know if this has been posted before:
http://www.bbc.co.uk/liverpool/localhistory/mersey_times/issue_06/gallery.shtml

Excellent find.


How atmospheric and moody is this.
http://www.bbc.co.uk/liverpool/localhistory/mersey_times/issue_06/pic11.shtmlI particularly like this one.

[Red Beret]

Recent photo of old stuff. I found a load of old Liverpool Georgian and Victorian property deeds in the derelict Everton Library about 8 yrs back. Phoned Liverpool Council about them, but they couldn't give a toss. At the time, the cupboard they were in was covered in paint flakes, water and bird shit. The vandals were gaining access into the building as well. So I liberated them. Spoke to another Liverpool councilor about them in Feb 2005 at the inaugural meeting of the Friends of Liverpool Monuments. Said he'd get back to me. Still waiting

When my dad was helping to build the Cavern Pub they found a load of old documents in a safe.  Looks like it used to be a solicitor's office.  Liverpool Council couldn't give a stuff then either so we placed them in the Knowsley Archives.  My uncle took one back to Australia with him - title deeds for the Albert Dock. 

[scouserdave]

When my dad was helping to build the Cavern Pub they found a load of old documents in a safe.  Looks like it used to be a solicitor's office.  Liverpool Council couldn't give a stuff then either so we placed them in the Knowsley Archives.  My uncle took one back to Australia with him - title deeds for the Albert Dock. 

Wow! Love to have a blimp at that. The one's I have fold out about a metre wide with a fancy wax stamp on them. I'm thinking of framing one of them. Much prefer them to be on display somewhere though.

[Tsar Kastik]

Dave, special stuff there mate. I love anything like that.

[The Gulleysucker]

Great stuff.

I like that sealing wax stamp with what I'm assuming must be a Liver bird on it.

[Tsar Kastik]

That dock road shot...The Coburg pub behind the bus?...the African Oil Mills centre pic?

[The Gulleysucker]

That dock road shot...The Coburg pub behind the bus?...the African Oil Mills centre pic?

Which pic is that Tsar, the Looking for work one?

While I'm here, if anyones interested there's a load of photo's of Pubs at.... http://www.flickr.com/photos/exacta2a/sets/72157605299781620/

[Tsar Kastik]

Yes Gulley, that's the one. Thought I could whiff that sickly smell the oil mill used to send out.

[The Gulleysucker]

Yes Gulley, that's the one. Thought I could whiff that sickly smell the oil mill used to send out.

Nearest I can get to it on streetview is this though the original was taken further over to the left beyond the pavements.

Interesting to see the (now white) building to the right with the loft hoist is still there from the original photo, or at least the facade, though the dock railway has now been obliterated. I expect some of the rails are probably still underneath the ground or under that side road to the left.

I think we've seen that spot, or somewhere very near there,  earlier on in the thread with one of the pictures of the overhead by Carbonara.


Edit...found it ...It was one of the General Strike photos...  http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=235587.msg7311370#msg7311370

[Tsar Kastik]

That's the spot Gulley.

The Mersey Engine Works was at 21/23 Sefton St. ....and if you enter 23 Sefton St. into Google maps you get?

[Red Beret]

Wow! Love to have a blimp at that. The one's I have fold out about a metre wide with a fancy wax stamp on them. I'm thinking of framing one of them. Much prefer them to be on display somewhere though.

Yeah yours look pretty much like mine.  Reckon the oldest one we had went back to 1730 or summit.  Had this silk, fully colour map - something to do with Lord Darby - that my dad passed to Central Library for a few months.  When we never heard back we went back to get it.  All the colour had evaporated, leaving just a black line drawing. 

[The Gulleysucker]

Tsar, I found something last night I'd never noticed before, some remains of the overhead supports here in the wall opposite the Baltic Fleet. There appear to be quite a lot along there.

I'm kicking myself for not noticing as I was in the Baltic a couple of years ago with some old mates. (Micro brewery - nice beer or was at the time). Ah well, maybe later in June when I come to collect my Lad I might try and have a closer look.

Also, don't know if anyone has seen the new Sherlock Holmes film, but some of the scenes where shot here and around Stanley and Clarence dock. I thought I recognised it in the cinema, that lifting bridge on Vauxhall is quite unique.

Some lads have made a short video of the area...

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/ekPKP74gE28&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/ekPKP74gE28&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1</a>

And not so much an old photograph but this shows some of the inside of the Liver Building, the clock mechanism and the board rooms, a must see. It also has some great views from the roof.

<a href="http://www.youtube.com/v/01Y6iY7noHY&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">http://www.youtube.com/v/01Y6iY7noHY&amp;hl=en_US&amp;fs=1</a>

I think my Mum worked there for a short while in the immediate post war era, I know there's some story of my Dad flying a Tiger Moth from Woodvale low around the building when she was working there when he was put in the RAF reserves in '48 or so.  Doubt you could get away with that these days. I've mentioned before on here somewhere in the past, but some of my distant ancestors on my Dads side where Master Plasterers and did a lot of the interior of the Liver. as well as the IOM Parliament building. One of my sisters researched it in the records office a few years ago and seems to have confirmed it all.

[Red Beret]

If you're after pics of Overhead Railway remains I have a few on my facebook.  Hopefully I can post the images up here...







I remember the sweeping shot of Stanley Dock when I saw Sherlock Holmes at the cinema with my mate.  Whole audience must have thought we were mad when we pointed and cheered! 

[The Gulleysucker]

I've seen those particular remnants before, it was just the ones opposite the Baltic I didn't realise still existed, but thanks for posting anyway, it's all good stuff in here.

I do wonder if those bits in your pics have any form of protection on them.

It would be  crying shame if every some demolition gang came along one day and simply torched them and sent them off to China for scrap.

I'm wondering if a blue plaque type of campaign might be needed to try and prevent them disappearing in such a manner.

Perhaps if anyone is going into the museum, they could ask if those bits have a preservation order on them and if not, why not?

[Red Beret]

I've seen those particular remnants before, it was just the ones opposite the Baltic I didn't realise still existed, but thanks for posting anyway, it's all good stuff in here.

I do wonder if those bits in your pics have any form of protection on them.

It would be  crying shame if every some demolition gang came along one day and simply torched them and sent them off to China for scrap.

I'm wondering if a blue plaque type of campaign might be needed to try and prevent them disappearing in such a manner.

Perhaps if anyone is going into the museum, they could ask if those bits have a preservation order on them and if not, why not?

The bits built into the wall at Wapping have a blue plaque on them; most of them seem to have been chopped down in height though.  The Northern dock wall was built into the railway and there are plenty of vertical stanchions remaining - just precious few horizontal pieces, which is why the pictures I took mean something personal to me.

[The Gulleysucker]

The bits built into the wall at Wapping have a blue plaque on them

Excellent and so they should. That's good news at least.
I wonder about those others you photographed though.
As you say, they must be the sole remaining horizontal pieces left in situ, unless someones got a chunk in their back garden somewhere.
Stranger things have happened, I've heard that it was discovered that plates from the Tirpitz are still in use in Norway for road repairs, covering potholes and such.

[Big Red Richie]

The bits built into the wall at Wapping have a blue plaque on them; most of them seem to have been chopped down in height though.  The Northern dock wall was built into the railway and there are plenty of vertical stanchions remaining - just precious few horizontal pieces, which is why the pictures I took mean something personal to me.

Is there actually a 'Blue Plaque' ?   Ie: English heritage plaque. 

If there is, I've never seen it.


Or are you confusing it with this one, which is on the wall of the very small building at the strand side of the Mersey Tunnel office/ventilation shaft, just near the old green Maersey tunnel toll booth?

Edit: Sorry, just realised you said Wapping, not the strand (or Goree plaza  ).

[Tsar Kastik]

A few of the Overhead on here...


 http://viewfinder.english-heritage.org.uk/search/results.aspx?index=12&mainQuery=liverpool%20overhead%20railway&searchType=all&form=home

[John_P]

Also, don't know if anyone has seen the new Sherlock Holmes film, but some of the scenes where shot here and around Stanley and Clarence dock. I thought I recognised it in the cinema, that lifting bridge on Vauxhall is quite unique.

they shot some of Captain America there as well.

terrible looking back at some of the great buildings, and modes of transport this city has done away with over the years.

also according to my dad this was one of the stations for the overhead railway, or at least the stairs up to it
http://maps.google.co.uk/maps?q=harrison+way,+liverpool&hl=en&ll=53.382394,-2.976179&spn=0.010495,0.033023&sll=53.800651,-4.064941&sspn=21.383044,67.631836&vpsrc=0&hnear=Harrison+Way,+United+Kingdom&t=m&z=16&layer=c&cbll=53.382443,-2.97624&panoid=I5JzFqGjSdbDUsjXxKO--g&cbp=12,25.5,,0,0.82

[Tsar Kastik]

this one from Hoogbouw off Skyscraper city, some other gooduns from there http://www.skyscrapercity.com/showthread.php?t=204156&page=19

[Red Beret]

Just checked Google street view and I can't see a blue plaque at Wapping.  Maybe I did imagine it after all... 

[The Gulleysucker]

Just checked Google street view and I can't see a blue plaque at Wapping.  Maybe I did imagine it after all... 

Yes, I had a looksee myself on streetview and couldn't see any plaques along Wapping but I would imagine that whole wall is preserved.

Some great pictures there Tsar.

That Lister Drive photo on the next page...



I remember the remains of the camouflage paint on the cooling towers.

Whenever we went to Newsham, my Dad would always let me go over to look at the shunting that would be going on in the sidings at the power station.

I recall being told a story of some workmen dying when building those towers, scaffold collapse or something though I might be getting mixed up with another set of towers elsewhere though.

Some great ones also on page 17 of that thread too.

A Flat Top lower right moored at Pier Head..



Looks like a Centaur class, no angle deck upgrade, possibly Bulwark or Albion.

I remember seeing three carriers lined up off the Mersey bar from Waterloo beach sometime in the very early 60's.

[Red Beret]

I'm not convinced that's a British carrier but if I had to guess I'd say it was either HMS Ark Royal (Audacious class) or HMS Hermes (Centaur class).  Ark Royal was decommissioned 1978 and Hermes was sold to India after the Falklands and is still going strong.  HMS Eagle was also Audacious class but was decommissioned in 1972 which makes it less likely.

The Atlantic Tower has only just begun construction in that pic.  I can't find it's construction date but that would date the pic if you can.  In the meantime here's one of my fave wiki pics, not Liverpool related but still cool:

[The Gulleysucker]

I'm not convinced that's a British carrier but if I had to guess I'd say it was either HMS Ark Royal (Audacious class) or HMS Hermes (Centaur class).  Ark Royal was decommissioned 1978 and Hermes was sold to India after the Falklands and is still going strong.  HMS Eagle was also Audacious class but was decommissioned in 1972 which makes it less likely.

Yes, but both the Ark and Hermes had angle decks by the late 60's which is why I was plumping for the old Bulwark or Albion, which although soldiering on till the early 80's would fit the timeframe of the photo,  neither ever had that upgrade and that carrier in the picture doesn't have an angle deck. Ark and Hermes also had the huge searchlight type radar on top of the tower around that probable time.
Just noticed, if you look closely you can just make out the circles for the helicopter landing zones along the deck so I think it's highly likely one of those two commando carriers.

Edit. Just noticed Albion was struck off in 72 so I'm guessing it's likely Bulwark.

And a further edit, visits of aircraft carriers to the Mersey .. http://derbosoft.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=history&action=print&thread=1790

After H.M.S. ALBION, LIVERPOOL PIER HEAD, May 1967

I'm guessing from the landmarks that the possible time frame of the picture makes it one of these...

H.M.S. EAGLE, PIER HEAD, February/March 1970
H.M.S. ALBION, PIER HEAD, May 1970
H.M.S. ARK ROYAL, LANDING STAGE, June 1970
H.M.S. BULWARK, LIVERPOOL PIER HEAD, 30th June - 6th July 1971

My favourite is probably that last one.

[Red Beret]

Deffo early to mid 70s imo.  If you look to the right of St John's Beacon (completed '69) you can see that the above ground Central Station still exists.  That wasn't demolished until 1973.  I think the Exchange Street station still exists on that picture too - that didn't go until '77.  I'd agree with 1971 as the most likely date for that pic.

[Big Red Richie]

Yes, I had a looksee myself on streetview and couldn't see any plaques along Wapping but I would imagine that whole wall is preserved.

I don't know if it's been posted in this thread or not, but here's a good reference site for anyone, regarding buildings in Liverpool.

It lists all of Liverpool's Listed buildings.

http://www.scribd.com/doc/41295712/Listed-Buildings-Liverpool

I don't know how up to date it is ( latest listed date's seem to be 2006), but it's a good reference source.

It's actuall quite amusing if you scan through it, as it's not just buildings that get listed status, but Phone boxes, letter boxes, walls, railings and a few other odd things.

[Tsar Kastik]

Google street view for #906...best I can do

[The Gulleysucker]

.....also according to my dad this was one of the stations for the overhead railway, or at least the stairs up to it.....

Sadly, while it would be nice if it was, it's doubtful.

While it's in the general locatoon of Herculaneum Station, it's on the wrong side of the road, the LOH ran to the left here in that view, ie the river side.

What was around there on that land side though was a lot of other railway things, the large CL Brunswick yard for one ...



You can see the yard here underneath the elevated section carrying the LOH off to the tunnel in the rockface to Dingle.

A bit further back from where that photo was taken, this Brunswick yard had a bridge over it, called Horsfall street. You can see it on the map here...



That ramp and steps led up to and connected with what now remains of Horsfall Street the far side of the lines over by Caryl Street

Found this as well which seems to confirm it..

http://www.flickr.com/photos/happyraildays/6603569165/in/photostream

That guy has a load of good pictures in his stream...http://www.flickr.com/photos/happyraildays/with/6603569165/ well worth a browse.

[jackh]

Horsefall St remains but, if I remember correctly, runs to a 90 degree angle to the map above (towards the flats shown on your flickr photo above).

My girlfriend has, this week, moved out of the City Quay flats (behind Greens gym) which are on the site of the old Herculaneum Dock - I presume that the Brunswick yard shown in the shot above is the site which is now everything between Brunswick Station and City Quay?

[The Gulleysucker]

Horsefall St remains but, if I remember correctly, runs to a 90 degree angle to the map above (towards the flats shown on your flickr photo above).

My girlfriend has, this week, moved out of the City Quay flats (behind Greens gym) which are on the site of the old Herculaneum Dock - I presume that the Brunswick yard shown in the shot above is the site which is now everything between Brunswick Station and City Quay?

It's all quite complex.

Here's the Admiralty plan from way back..



Here's a shot of Herculaneum and the Graving docks from 1907 looking east. You can see the CL yard at the lower right and the LOH girder bridge leading to the tunnel for Dingle.



Here's a view looking west from along side the Graving dock..



This is the view of the yard from the overbridge marked Herculaneum in the map from my post before..



In it you can see that the houses along the top, ie Grafton Street, have now been built on the land that was empty in the photo up above. Note at the left hand there is a tunnel with a steam engine about to enter. That tunnel is still there and the line still uses it.

In streetview here you can see a train about to enter it.

In the photo below is shot of the complex including Toxteth and Harrington docks.



In this you can make out the then road layout, you can even see the bridges over the CL yard, including the Horsefall Street one, and you should be able to make out the LOH.

That last photo is from a great site, shows lots of the docks, ... http://www.merchantnavyofficers.com/topp.html

Here it all is looking west in 2001..



Here's a photo of the Herculaneum LOH bridge partly dismantled..



You are looking back towards town in that and beyond those gates underneath was then the CL yard.

The above bridge went into this tunnel mouth below that is still there today...



Hopefully you should be able to get some bearings on the layout now.

[Big Red Richie]

Excellent research.

Just one question.  What is  'CL' that you are refering to?   (Cheshire Lines ?)

[The Gulleysucker]

Just one question.  What is  'CL' that you are refering to?   (Cheshire Lines ?)

Yes Richie, sorry. (I should really have put CLC as it was Cheshire Lines Committee.)

As you probably know, they had quite an extensive rail system around and into Liverpool and even stretching up to Southport via Aintree/Old Roan though most of it has now long gone or converted to cycle tracks.

The line through Walton/Broadway/West Derby/Knotty Ash etc was originally CLC, was superb quality originally, and should never have been allowed to fall into disuse and now been built on in several places as it would have been perfect for a light rail tramway around the suburbs and into town.

As usual, an other example of great forward planning.

[jackh]

Top post, Gulleysucker - looking forward to showing her that later on!

Interesting to see just how much land has been reclaimed - particularly from the second photo in that post.

[Red Beret]

Excellent work.  That tunnel serves as part of the northern line now.  Most of that yard has flats built on it but the wagon houses are still there.

[The Gulleysucker]

Found a few more of Herculaneum (amongst others) when under construction here...http://www.antique-maps-books.com/3623.htm .




"Commencement of Petroleum stores, Herculaneum Dock. Liverpool.1882. Each Store is a Short Tunnel 60ft long in the Sandstone Rock"

That's these ....





and today....





Here's a pic of some of the houses being built and before the shallow imitation of the original dock was filled..



And here are some more of the dock in operation..

Unloading coal


and right at the end of its life...http://www.flickr.com/photos/happyraildays/6238492095/ (can't embed as flikr)

and a history here ... http://www.liverpoolmuseums.org.uk/nof/docks/access/dock_history12.html that includes this...

1972 
Herculaneum Dock closes and is filled shortly after. The oil trade has moved across the river to Tranmere. The casemates are still very cheap to rent so are used to store explosives, radioactive substances and sometimes wine and cotton.