Topic: Brexit - doesn't really seem to be a very good idea does it? (*)

[killer-heels]

We're getting reports that Peter Odemwingie has arrived at the Port of Calais claiming he wants to come back to the UK... But has sensationally be turned away.

... cue massive celebrations at UKIP towers.

[Haemoglobin]

They have, and they voted to Leave. I voted Remain but if 'we' had won and Leave voters were out protesting everyone on here would be saying you had a vote and lost, that's democracy, we need to move on etc. Believe me I think it's a shocking decision by the public and can't believe we're leaving, but we voted and that's what most people wanted. How we leave is a different matter, but the upshot is we're leaving.

No, I'd say the margin was too tight to call.

A hugely significant portion of 'the people' are being railroaded into potentially disastrous changes.

[west_london_red]

Yes but thats exactly what we will do I reckon.

Cant see it happening, we cant compete with the Chinese and Far East on cost, as much as the Tories would love a low wage economy that would be even a step too far for them.

[Libertine]

[Haemoglobin]

How many under 40's voted?

How many over-40s didn't vote?

[west_london_red]

How many over-40s didn't vote?

Google it and you get various numbers broken down by various age ranges, less then 15% of 65's didn't vote, with those in the mid 40's to 65 averaging about 20- 25% who didn't vote. Now compare that to younger age groups, some sources even saying that less younger people voted in 2016 then 2015.

[killer-heels]

Cant see it happening, we cant compete with the Chinese and Far East on cost, as much as the Tories would love a low wage economy that would be even a step too far for them.

Doesnt a trade deal between nations/trading blocs supercede WTO terms?

[The North Bank]

Says a person that thinks we send soldiers to other countries to murder people.

I dont know about everyone else in this thread, but, I cannot accept a result with a majority of 52-48.  The margin isn't large enough to change the whole future direction of this country.  It's not right!

Plus the whole Leave campaign was based on total bollocks, xenophobia and racism.

Why should nearly half of the 67% that voted just shut up and get on with it?

Its called democracy, no point campaigning after the vote.
And yeh, we do send soldiers to murder people.

[SP]

They have, and they voted to Leave. I voted Remain but if 'we' had won and Leave voters were out protesting everyone on here would be saying you had a vote and lost, that's democracy, we need to move on etc. Believe me I think it's a shocking decision by the public and can't believe we're leaving, but we voted and that's what most people wanted. How we leave is a different matter, but the upshot is we're leaving.

Do you? More people voted to Leave than Remain, so we're leaving.

They voted for £350M extra for the NHS each week. They voted for less immigration. They voted for miracle trade deals with the non-EU world that would boost the economy, despite there being no supporting evidence such deals were feasible, they voted for leaving but retaining full access to the single market.

All of which the "Government" have rowed furiously backward on. The people were presented the prospect of an impossible deal by a Leave camp largely free from the shackles of actually having to deliver on those promises.

The final deal will look very different to the promises that the Leave vote won with. It is gross revisionism to even suggest that the current proposed Hard Brexit with a cliff edge was on the cards last June.

Triggering Article 50 discharges the obligation to the referendum result. In two years time, parliament still needs to ask, "Is this deal better than revoking Article 50?". If the deal is as bad as we fear, Parliament needs to grow enough of a spine to ask the electorate if they want to accept that deal. A 2nd referendum on the precise terms of the deal should be achievable, there are enough remain Tory MPs, and it is not an outright rejection.   

[The North Bank]

The democratic process may have failed. But it's still the best we've got. Just a shame the ins didn't campaign better. And a shame we live in a country with a considerable racist undertone.

[Rastas]

"they"



Also, fuck you.

Very helpful, it's responses like that that just make people look at remain as cry arses.

As for me I didn't vote and am happy to go along with the majority (rightly or wrongly) as that is how the country voted.

[Haemoglobin]

Google it and you get various numbers broken down by various age ranges, less then 15% of 65's didn't vote, with those in the mid 40's to 65 averaging about 20- 25% who didn't vote. Now compare that to younger age groups, some sources even saying that less younger people voted in 2016 then 2015.

And they all voted with the future of the nation that they won't see at the forefront of their minds, right?

The clear point of my post, where I even mention apathetic non-voters, is that "the people" have not definitively spoken. Those that are not being included in "the people" are hardly a small minority. Just over half the population is not "the people" as a whole, so stop using that propaganda. This is democracy at its most irresponsible and blinkered, because this upheaval for all has not been pushed through by a sizable majority, and in fact the most economically fruitful areas of the country have given a red light to the upheaval.

[The North Bank]

Rejecting the result of a democratic vote may be worse than accepting the result of an ill informed one. The outcome could be catastrophic, how many votes do we take, will it be 1-1 if the next vote reverses it. Do we go for a tie breaker.
Or should we just do away with democracy, because even idiots are entitled to vote and they are sending us over the edge of a cliff.
I think its best to accept it and try to get the best deal out of it.

[killer-heels]

Rejecting the result of a democratic vote may be worse than accepting the result of an ill informed one. The outcome could be catastrophic, how many votes do we take, will it be 1-1 if the next vote reverses it. Do we go for a tie breaker.
Or should we just do away with democracy, because even idiots are entitled to vote and they are sending us over the edge of a cliff.
I think its best to accept it and try to get the best deal out of it.

What does that mean to try to accept it and get the best deal out of it? Do you mean us as people or the government?

[Haemoglobin]

Rejecting the result of a democratic vote may be worse than accepting the result of an ill informed one. The outcome could be catastrophic, how many votes do we take, will it be 1-1 if the next vote reverses it. Do we go for a tie breaker.
Or should we just do away with democracy, because even idiots are entitled to vote and they are sending us over the edge of a cliff.
I think its best to accept it and try to get the best deal out of it.

You need to set a far more sensible margin of 'victory', as often happens in responsible democracies undertaking such huge desisions that will affect all.

[The North Bank]

What does that mean to try to accept it and get the best deal out of it? Do you mean us as people or the government?

Both, the government"s actions influence our futures. So they need to go to Europe and get the best deal for us. We need to push our MPs, who represent us, to get the best deal for us. Instead of pushing them to reject the vote and go over the same old ground.
I still have no idea what deals are available, what options the country has, how each industry will be affected. There is very little coverage of what might happen next, because everyone is still in a daze about the vote.

[The North Bank]

You need to set a far more sensible margin of 'victory', as often happens in responsible democracies undertaking such huge desisions that will affect all.

Its a referendum, not an election, there are no coalitions and power sharing, it was a simple in or out, and we voted out. Every vote counts and one more vote is enough.
I do think Cameron was an idiot for not appreciating the idiocy of a large section of the general public, who form their opinions by what they read in the daily mail and the s*n. I wouldn't have given them the vote, but once you do, you have to accept the result.

[zero zero]

Rejecting the result of a democratic vote may be worse than accepting the result of an ill informed one.

A vote based on outright lies and fantasy is not democracy, it's a subversion of democracy.

[Haemoglobin]

Its a referendum, not an election, there are no coalitions and power sharing, it was a simple in or out, and we voted out. Every vote counts and one more vote is enough.
I do think Cameron was an idiot for not appreciating the idiocy of a large section of the general public, who form their opinions by what they read in the daily mail and the s*n. I wouldn't have given them the vote, but once you do, you have to accept the result.

And responsible democracies don't decide such matters with referenda cackhandedly thrust upon an ill-informed public where one single impetuous vote can hold sway.

[filopastry]

Labour needs to get its act together right fucking now to be honest.

As long as May doesn't think there is even the semblance of an effective opposition in this country, I suspect she will dance to the tune of the Hard right and its friends in the media even if it is an economic disaster, at present she's almost certainly getting re-elected in 2020 no matter how big a clusterfuck Brexit is.

A good piece in the FT today on the economic delusion of the Brexiteers.

https://www.ft.com/content/26e3f816-12c8-11e7-b0c1-37e417ee6c76

[killer-heels]

Both, the government"s actions influence our futures. So they need to go to Europe and get the best deal for us. We need to push our MPs, who represent us, to get the best deal for us. Instead of pushing them to reject the vote and go over the same old ground.
I still have no idea what deals are available, what options the country has, how each industry will be affected. There is very little coverage of what might happen next, because everyone is still in a daze about the vote.

The whole phrase was coined out by people who, after the Brexit vote, think they have an influence. Its a patronising way of trying to feel important and special and not accepting the fact that their existence matters to no one but the few family and friends that surround themselves with.

Nothing will change. People will go on working and living. The only ones that matter in this process is the government and the only ones who will influence them is big businesses. There is no election in the next two years so the public will have little say in any deal. Just live your life as normal and thats what 99% of people will do anyway.

[Libertine]

And reality is about to hit....

https://www.theguardian.com/politics/2017/mar/29/first-eu-response-to-article-50-takes-tough-line-on-transitional-deal

[The North Bank]

A vote based on outright lies and fantasy is not democracy, it's a subversion of democracy.

I think its the worst thing to ever happen to this country. But I'm more fearful of rejecting a democratic process, once you set a precedence, who knows what can happen next. We can start rejecting any vote on the basis it was ill informed. Most elections are based on fantasy and unfulfilled promises. Its a dangerous road to go down on.

[kennedy81]

Rejecting the result of a democratic vote may be worse than accepting the result of an ill informed one. The outcome could be catastrophic, how many votes do we take, will it be 1-1 if the next vote reverses it. Do we go for a tie breaker.
Or should we just do away with democracy, because even idiots are entitled to vote and they are sending us over the edge of a cliff.
I think its best to accept it and try to get the best deal out of it.

Like all those euro-skeptic Tories down the years, after the UK had voted to join the EU?

[SP]

Rejecting the result of a democratic vote may be worse than accepting the result of an ill informed one. The outcome could be catastrophic, how many votes do we take, will it be 1-1 if the next vote reverses it. Do we go for a tie breaker.
Or should we just do away with democracy, because even idiots are entitled to vote and they are sending us over the edge of a cliff.
I think its best to accept it and try to get the best deal out of it.

The result has not been rejected. The result caused the triggering of Article 50. If the deal that the swivel eyes loons of the Tory negotiating team come back with is rubbish,  it is legitimate to say that the deal is not the deal that was promised and it should be referred to the people. A referendum result is not carte blanche to implement Brexit at any cost. The referendum result caused this negotiation to happen. Once we reach an end point, it is valid to ask the electorate if they want to implement it.

Of course if Cameron was not a lazy incompetent fucker, the referendum would have been between 2 well defined choices and it could be justifiably claims that the populace had consented to the chosen form of Brexit. But then if he was competent, he would not have called the referendum in the first place. But he was, and we are in the current position we are in where no one has a clear mandate to do anything in relation to Europe. Apart from UKIP. All of their MPs are pulling together on this one.

[oldfordie]

I think its the worst thing to ever happen to this country. But I'm more fearful of rejecting a democratic process, once you set a precedence, who knows what can happen next. We can start rejecting any vote on the basis it was ill informed. Most elections are based on fantasy and unfulfilled promises. Its a dangerous road to go down on.

We have already been taken down that road by the Tory government with the support of millions of leave voters. this government has abused the result of the referendum to impose a hard Brexit on the country,the people of this country didn't vote for a hard Brexit.
The Torys now want to by pass our democracy by refusing to allow our MPs a vote over changing our laws. this is an attack on the very foundation of democracy.
We might as well just let the cabinet decide every law and do away with all MPs.

[Libertine]

Reality:

@ManfredWeber
EU has done everything to keep the British. From now on, only the interests of the remaining 440 million Europeans count for us. #BrexitDay

[ShakaHislop]

Sky News using today to unveil their new, advanced polling model.

[Sangria]

I think its the worst thing to ever happen to this country. But I'm more fearful of rejecting a democratic process, once you set a precedence, who knows what can happen next. We can start rejecting any vote on the basis it was ill informed. Most elections are based on fantasy and unfulfilled promises. Its a dangerous road to go down on.

The British democratic process allows for opposition to the referendum result. Opposition is intrinsic to the system, and is even officially appointed and paid for. The problem is, there is no opposition. Any vote is supposed to be rejected by a section and fought against, so there can be a variety of views. To give up these views to preserve some mythical democratic process is the real betrayal of said democratic process.

[Banquo's Ghost]

Well, now that the leap into the dark has been made, I can only wish everyone well. Let us hope that the worst possible does not become the reality, and that somehow, a statesman will step forward to find an agreement which will be reasonable for the people in the UK.

My own personal Brexit takes place later in April. I'm not regretting my decision to leave this country in its current mindset, but I want my friends who remain to have a decent future.

[TheShanklyGates]

Can't even put how I'm feeling into words at the moment. It's all just so thoroughly depressing and I can't see any way back for this country at the moment.

[kennedy81]

I don't think I've ever heard such a stream of unmitigated blather spew forth from a UK politician as I've just heard from May's speech.

[sms1986]

Such a shame, we didn't need to have the referendum in the first place, and it didn't need to be binding, but here we are. We can now only hope for the best deal we can get (the process can be stopped and we can remain in the EU, but this would be a very unlikely scenario).

First country to leave (unless you count Greenland) the EU when we do in 2019, I wonder if any others will be on the path out by then?

[west_london_red]

Doesnt a trade deal between nations/trading blocs supercede WTO terms?

Yes it does, but that assumes that there is a deal reached first of all between us and the EU.

[Kop307]

This has been going on for over a year, and I've spoken to maybe 50 people who voted leave and I'm still yet to hear a single reason why leaving is a good idea. All you get is  :

"You lost"
"Stop moaning"
"Remoaners"
"LETS JUST GET OUT"

Yes but why do you want to leave? "YOU LOST". Try reasoning with it. Try getting your head around it. All the best. This is a group of people who voted leave headed by UKIP. This is the future of our country. I call a UKIP Government in the next 20 years.

[cdav]

On May's speech (taken from The Guardian):

She wants the UK to emerge “stronger, fairer, more outward-looking than ever before”.
She wants us to be a magnet for talent, and a truly global Britain.
May says: "Perhaps now more than ever the world needs the liberal, democratic values of Europe - values that the UK shares."
When protectionist instincts are on the rise, Europe has a responsibility to stand up for free trade. "Failing to stand up for European values would be a costly mistake."

How do you square that with people just wanting lower immigration and less foreigners? We have become more inward, more protectionist and more hostile to the European Values she talks about (sucking up to Trump being the key one). How can we be a talent magnet when people are so opposed to people coming here to work?

A shameful day for our country, and a hypocritical speech from a truly dreadful Prime Minister.

[TheShanklyGates]

This has been going on for over a year, and I've spoken to maybe 50 people who voted leave and I'm still yet to hear a single reason why leaving is a good idea. All you get is  :

"You lost"
"Stop moaning"
"Remoaners"
"LETS JUST GET OUT"

Yes but why do you want to leave? "YOU LOST". Try reasoning with it. Try getting your head around it. All the best. This is a group of people who voted leave headed by UKIP. This is the future of our country. I call a UKIP Government in the next 20 years.

UKIP are done, there's no need for them any more now that the far right is in control of the conservative party.

[Andy]

Says a person that thinks we send soldiers to other countries to murder people.

I dont know about everyone else in this thread, but, I cannot accept a result with a majority of 52-48.  The margin isn't large enough to change the whole future direction of this country.  It's not right!

Plus the whole Leave campaign was based on total bollocks, xenophobia and racism.

Why should nearly half of the 67% that voted just shut up and get on with it?

Frottage was planning to carry on the fight if he lost, so why the fuck shouldn't we?

Can't believe people don't recycle this article more often. It is the argument direct from Fucknuggets' mouth.

Mr Johnson's intervention came after Ukip leader Nigel Frottage said Britain would need to vote again in the event of a narrow defeat for the Brexit campaign.

Mr Frottage said unless David Cameron's Remain campaign wins by a two thirds margin, there would be 'unfinished business'.

Mr Cameron, leading the campaign to stay, has insisted the crunch poll is a once in a generation opportunity and the rules of the referendum require just a simple majority to win.

Two polls in the past 24 hours have handed big leads to the Remain campaign - but different methods and taking turn out data into account produce large swings to the result.

...

Mr Frottage told the Daily Mirror: 'In a 52-48 referendum this would be unfinished business by a long way.

'If the remain campaign win two-thirds to one-third that ends it.'

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-3594364/Nigel-Frottage-warns-demand-SECOND-referendum-EU-Leave-campaign-loses-narrow-margin.html

[cg82]

'... we are just getting word here at Sky that the UK have made a last minute bid for tarriff free access for motor vehicles out of the UK, but in return the EU want a higher quota for salmon fishing"

Cut to an interview with Harry Redknapp hanging out the car winda, "Yeah that Eurpoena Union we cudda 'ad 'im. Triffic playa. Cudda 'ad 'im".

Will the purple dildo make an appearence?

[zero zero]

I think its the worst thing to ever happen to this country. But I'm more fearful of rejecting a democratic process, once you set a precedence, who knows what can happen next. We can start rejecting any vote on the basis it was ill informed. Most elections are based on fantasy and unfulfilled promises. Its a dangerous road to go down on.

I'm not rejecting the result. If you're looking for precedents we have prominent Leavers dismissing their own claims on the morning of the result. I disagree with your "Most elections..." as I've never seen such a thing in this country in my lifetime.

Still waiting to hear from Slowrap on what lessons I should have learned from this.