Rather than answering the questions directly, I've used the questions as a starting point to put down some thoughts about our rivalry with Man Utd and how that rivalries changed during the last few years, sorry for the novel, I just kept adding to it.
During my lifetime our relationship with the Mancs has always been complex with a streak of hatred running through it that is never far from the surface, but it was not always so; during our second division days it was common for some of our fathers and grandfathers not only to go to see Everton when we were away but also to go to Old Trafford to see the Busby Babes. The tragedy of Munich however was to affect our relationship in many ways. For my fathers generation it was a massive upset, to see such a great football team decimated was to effect them deeply. Man Utd had every one's sympathy, journalists and football in general looked upon Man Utd favourably, I remember watching them win the European cup in 1968 on television and my Dad wanting them to win, you couldn't imagine a Liverpool fan wanting that now, even though he was quick to remind me we should have won it first but for a bent referee in Milan in 65.
Growing up in the sixties, Munich meant little to me at the time, I knew about it but it was just something remote out of a torn history book, what mattered to me as a young Liverpudlian was no matter how great we were, the media loved Man Utd. With hindsight it's not difficult to understand why tight-knitted journalists, who had lost colleague's in Munich, wanted Man Utd to rise from the flames of tragedy, but to us all we saw was the bias towards Man utd in the press, it was like our achievements counted for nothing.
In them days the rivalry with Everton was on a different level to United but was nearly always friendly. On the football field Man Utd were not a real threat like teams like Leeds United but they were local. Football wasn't televised as much them days, but on a Sunday Granada would show highlights of a North West game, so we got to see alot of United and Gerald Sindstadt, their pet commentator who was a United fan.
The difference with United was the local rivalry was anything but friendly. Old Trafford was a scary place for Scousers to visit, I'd been to various tough grounds but the hatred you faced at Old Trafford was amplified by their police who seemed to hate us even more than their mob, rather than protecting us they would turn a blind eye when we were outnumbered and act in collaboration with their mob, in contrast Merseyside Police used to do things by the book and United were always protected in Liverpool. You had to stick together because getting split up meant being ambushed. So you had a local rivalry that quickly became nasty unlike our rivalry with Everton at the time.
We had a great sixties side but it was never given the credit that they deserved in the media. When Shankly and latterly Paisley built one of the great European sides, it was as if we had done nothing compared to the great Man Utd battling away in mediocrity. From this frustration and our experiences of Old Trafford it became easy to hate, as society changed and hooliganism became the norm a trip to Old Trafford became the away that you couldn't duck out off, you got more credibility going there than anywhere else, I've still got some of my ticket stubs from some of those games, those that were there know how violent our encounters became, we were in a cycle where our mutual hatred fed into the next encounter. At that time I hated Man Utd and their supporters with a passion.
In the eighties, I had to move away for work and found myself in Warrington with a great set of lads, the problem for me was some of them supported Man Utd and they were not the Mancs I'd encountered outside the Scoreboard, but decent lads like my mates back in Liverpool, I had loads in common with them and it challenged my cartoon version of Man Utd fans that I believed in. I was growing up but it was forgotten when going the match. Today lads who work in Manchester know that in spite of our football rivalry their workmates don't have two heads and are usually alright, one of the lads I go the match with works in Salford and he talks football with his workmates without problems. Seriously of course you can talk football with them, real life isn't like the internet, good and bad like us all.
Then Hillsborough happened, and everything changed for our generation. I remember wandering around Anfield and feeling so emotional looking at the Man Utd scarves with their messages of sympathy, they meant more because of where they'd come from and the messages were from genuine match going fans, who understood what had happened, this more than anything on the pitch is my fondest memory of our encounters. Something clicked for many of us and we put football into perspective. They became the dominant force on the field and we have had to watch as the tables turned. I've been back to Old Trafford a few times recently and the hatred grows, not to the levels of the seventies but it's definitely coming back, which for me is sad. It was only a few seasons ago we pulled some of our supporters for singing Munich songs back in retaliation for Hillsborough shite in Manchester and loads backed us up, but that time has passed, which is a pity because for a few years we had a truce. We lose out the most with the revival of the chants because our support contains many who still suffer because of what they saw that day, few of their fans are directly effected by Munich, which isn't to belittle Munich in any way just to state fact. I don't think Ferguson helps things with his total ungraciousness, it effects the attitude of their fans but there's little we can do about it apart from having the patience to build a decent football team to knock the smile off arl whisky nose's wrinkled face.
For me, the Everton game is still more important than the Man Utd game, I've heard people in the media calling Liverpool vs Man Utd a Derby, that's shite our only Derby is against Everton not anyone else, unless it effects us winning the league I'd always want the win against Everton first but even better to stuff the pair of them.
We all know about the rivalries and the differences but I was talking to a lad from Belgium who lived in Manchester about Liverpool and I had to concede they're similar cities and sometimes caught up in our rivalries we forget how much in common the two working class cities have. In football terms as much as we're different we also have things in common with them, their dominance of the last few years mirrors us in the seventies and eighties, we both know about leveraged buyouts etc. I may hate them on the football field but when you talk to their sensible fans Like Johhno, who comes on here, you find we also have alot in common even if it's hard to admit it because of our Histories. But like Everton today I've seen our rivalries go through different phases, and whoever's to blame I prefer the intense rivalry without the hatred, it seems unrealistic today but just when you think things will go on for ever, things have a habit of changing.
Things you admire about United, I left the hard one to the end, but their sixties team built by Busby was great to watch, we were collectively a better team but when they clicked United played lovely football, Best was a great player but for me Dennis Law was the one I secretly admired, he just had the knack of instinctively doing the right thing in front of goal. I always thought the Tommy Docherty side that stole our treble in 77 had the potential to be a great side, in parts they played great football but Tommy's affair with Mary Brown meant they never fulfilled their potential. That game sticks out for me as a great disappointment and would be the memory that I'd bury, because we were so close to doing the treble, I got a ticket outside for a tenner after I'd given up getting in and ended up sitting with the United Players families right by the royal box on my own, from elation to total disappointment in 90 minutes, especially as everyone was going to Rome bar me because my Dad couldn't convince my Mum to allow me to miss an O level to go, but the result a few days later was a consolation.
In the modern era you have to admire Ferguson's achievements and his desire to try and knock us off our perch, but he has become far too removed from his roots and he showed just how far with his attitude to the Glazer take over, he's lost sight of what matters , how many loyal season ticket holders did he cut adrift to save his own arse, he didn't just get in bed with them he trampled on their traditional support to jump on the bed, the old hypocrite.
The mad thing about our relationship is that Liverpool and Manchester are only twenty minutes apart when the M62 is empty, closer than parts of other cities are to each other and we really have so very little to do with each other. The cities and people have alot more in common than we like to admit but we very rarely meet each other outside of football and trips to Manchester airport so we don't meet people on a social basis that challenge our prejudices about each other.
