Author Topic: Round Table LFC 1-1 Southampton  (Read 8968 times)

Offline Hinesy

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Round Table LFC 1-1 Southampton
« on: October 26, 2015, 12:40:07 pm »
Southampton often cause us grief at Anfield, they're no pushover and Ronald has set them up nicely to play well when allowed. The frustration for us is clear to see and sense, the whole of the crowd almost expected an equalizer and its important the crowd as well as the players learn to lose the fear.

My concern watching this game was a recurring one. All too frequently most of the team expect one man to change the game and the rest will play around him til it happens. Be that Gerrard or Suarez, it now appears to be Coutinho and if he doesn't play well, we get stuck.

There still seems a good deal of space between defence and forward attack, the midfield at times aren't 'flooding' forward and for all the pressing, we still are finding our feet when it comes to converting possession to swift attack.

Also I was interested to see what fatigue does to a player. In the case of Can, its Can't Play.

So, are we moving apace, anew and forwards under Herr Klopp or would we still be here under Brendan?

Meantime Sakho eh.. better and better for me. Bless.
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Offline redmark

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Re: Round Table LFC 1-1 Southampton
« Reply #1 on: October 26, 2015, 01:32:11 pm »
As ever over the last few years, we seem to come back to a compromise (and perhaps compromised) midfield to allay problems elsewhere and to compensate for the lack of the 'complete' central midfielder; in this case, hopefully, a short-lived one as Klopp gets his ideas across on the first issue, at least. On the second, the return of Henderson will help, but perhaps not solve the issue.

It seems most likely that most Klopp shapes will have four defenders and a striker. How to arrange the five in between, to protect the defence, support the attack and provide a cohesive flow between the two? It's probably the fundamental issue that Rodgers never solved with this group of players.

So far, it seems, Klopp's immediate idea is almost a Venables Christmas Tree. Lucas will hover just infront of or occasionally drop between the CBs - who don't split anything like the 13/14 Rodgers shape. Milner and Can play surprisingly wide much of the time as the other 'central' midfielders. On occasion, a Southampton counter was able to pass through the centre fairly easily and quickly because our three became one, with the flanking midfielders having half an eye on filling in for marauding fullbacks. If this is to be a long term shape, one might expect us to be prioritising a left footed midfielder sooner rather than later, as Can's effectiveness seems restricted at times playing very close to the left touchline.

But will it be the long term plan, or do we revert to 4231 when we have the players available (or signed) to do it justice?

If and when Sturridge's knees dry out, I'd be increasingly unsurprised to see him tucked in on the right, assuming he's willing to put the effort in, with Benteke taking precedence up top. We still have Coutinho, Lallana and Firmino for the positions in a 'three' (currently two) and, perhaps Origi may be better suited to one of those roles, as he doesn't seem to have the natural movement instincts of a striker (and at some point, Markovic may return).

But do we have a natural midfield two, to permit an attacking three - at least, in the home games we should be dominating? Will we see one on Wednesday? There are probably question marks over every contender for those roles operating in a two and it almost inevitably removes the positives we get from Lucas; Henderson and (maybe, long term) Can perhaps apart. But if we don't, it's not clear that we have enough creativity and goals from the two flanking Lucas, either. Milner and Henderson perhaps in the (relatively) short term, but it still looks a bit... plodding, without being too critical. The Rodgers-era options of Coutinho or Lallana on the side of a diamond don't look like viable options in our brave new world. Where do they all fit - and for how long does Coutinho merit the status of our 'best player' if he isn't?

Meanwhile suddenly the defence looks almost transformed. Sakho had his weakest game under Klopp, but still dominated his direct opponents for most of the game, and Skrtel put in his best performance for some time. Moreno's recovery pace is astonishing - and for all the criticism of his delivery, he put in a beautiful cross in the first half that should have been attacked better. Clyne was a bit timid on the ball, but should progress. Mignolet caught a cross and came out to collect at someone's feet. My TV seemed to be on the blink though, as every overarm throw out appeared to be in slow motion.

On a particularly positive note, I can see that side (with Benteke in for Origi and perhaps Firmino for Coutinho) getting a result at Chelsea.
« Last Edit: October 26, 2015, 03:18:45 pm by redmark »
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Offline Hinesy

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Re: Round Table LFC 1-1 Southampton
« Reply #2 on: October 26, 2015, 10:59:30 pm »
Bump
Yep.

Offline Twelfth Man

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Re: Round Table LFC 1-1 Southampton
« Reply #3 on: October 26, 2015, 11:12:00 pm »
Also I was interested to see what fatigue does to a player. In the case of Can, its Can't Play.
I've said this from pretty much day one seeing him play. A tank that takes fucking ages to catch up to the play. His standing start agility is very slow. The move bypasses him easily. Having said that, he is still oddly quite some player. That fucking fighting spirit, willingness to track back and get a last ditch tackle in, and general energy. Hard to fault. Still hoping that Klopp can figure out a system to get the best out of his qualities. The speed and quickness of the Premiership is my biggest concern with Emre in midfield. What a centre-back he could be though...
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Offline Robbo1980

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Re: Round Table LFC 1-1 Southampton
« Reply #4 on: October 26, 2015, 11:28:45 pm »
Quote
My concern watching this game was a recurring one. All too frequently most of the team expect one man to change the game and the rest will play around him til it happens. Be that Gerrard or Suarez, it now appears to be Coutinho and if he doesn't play well, we get stuck.

I dont agree with this, i think already we are moving away from this, we are looking to attack from more areas and with more than just the 1 saviour.

Clyne / Moreno have each been in great positions deep inside the opponents box in the last few games only to freeze / not know the movement of the players, which with the injuries we have had in forward positions is only to be expected, in a few weeks both will know that benteke likes to take a step back for a pull back as opposed to attacking a post and so on with other players arriving from deep etc.

lallana is taking his share of responsibility for creating (although having had nothing to hit for 3 games its been hard), i cant think of many instances where individuals have been helplessly looking for Coutinho to deliver.

We have to stop taking pot shots though, by all means create space for a shot but the hit and hope is beyond a joke.

Its going to come to the point where Klopp has to choose between Coutinho & Lallana, obviously Coutinho is the better player but lallana probably plays in the better areas and tactically he would be my choice from the 2 currently, of course Coutinho could have a huge impact from a deeper area, but as an attacking mid who has to support a front man he is dropping too deep and not getting close enough or beyond the front

Offline n00bert

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Re: Round Table LFC 1-1 Southampton
« Reply #5 on: October 27, 2015, 12:06:48 am »
If there's one thing I'm impressed by in the last couple of games is our desire to compete for the ball. Towards the end of Brendan's reign, this was sorely lacking. It's good to see it back, even if it's not led to victories since the arrival of the Klopp.

There are a couple of extremely concerning aspects though that have carried over from the tail end of the Rodgers era, and that's the lack of mobility up front. And as much as it pains me to say it, it does appear that we miss Raheem Sterling.

Origi looked ponderous in the first half, and he seemed to refuse to make runs in behind. I'm curious about the point of having pace if all you're going to do is come short. We made it extremely easy for them in the first half and that's a disappointment. Will he develop into a world class striker? On the evidence of the last few games, probably not as he appears to lack that natural instinct to get into the box or to find space for a shot. You want someone who is adept at finding that space, and I haven't seen it with Divock. I hope he proves me wrong though.

James Milner also seems to be lost in midfield. In the 10 or so games this season, he just seems ponderous and lacks the ability to play an incisive pass. And IMO that's what we've been lacking big time in the last few games, the ability to move the ball quickly in order to open up the defence. It's sometimes the easy pass that shifts and the defence, the movement into space that draws a defender. Milner for all his industry plays it way too safe. That cross though, was scrumptious.

What I'm looking forward to is seeing Firmino, Benteke, Sturridge and Coutinho in the same team. Firmino has some amazing feet but has to learn the pace of the game. His little cameo showed glimpses of great ability, ability you either have or you don't. Like Coutinho I feel that he'll be good in tight spaces, great feet and sees like has an eye for a pass and has some pretty good movement. A second after his introduction he made a little dart into space but Coutinho shot over, but it's exactly that kind of movement that we were lacking to start.

Benteke, is a beast. That header was probably one of the best I've seen in a long time. Majestic.  I think with a good run of games and with his fitness returning, we are going to have a focal point in our attack that will worry many a defence. On his day, unplayable and in one half showed more than Origi did in 3.

Coutinho I think will relish playing consistently with players like Firmino and Benteke. He is not blameless but he was looking for movement all the time, and the only person that seemed to be making those runs into the box was Lallana. With movement ahead of him creating space and better players making more runs into good positions, his form will return. I think I counted 3 times in the first half where Phil turned a player and looked up only to see no movement and no one really creating space.

Was quite impressed with Emre Can and Lucas looks back to his imperious best. Can, for such a young guy, seems to have some decent game intelligence. I think he could eventually play that Lucas role of destroyer but with better distribution. He too suffered from the lack of movement in the final third.

Disappointed with the way we conceded though and disappointed that we went into our shell again once we conceded. I'm not sure if anyone else felt the pressure mounting but I saw us concede space and retreat to the edge of our box. We were solid for the most part but it's concerning that after battling to go up we just looked like we knew we were gonna them back in.

Credible performance overall but we need to be better.

Offline LiamG

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Re: Round Table LFC 1-1 Southampton
« Reply #6 on: October 27, 2015, 06:34:35 am »
Brilliant tactical analysis here http://spielverlagerung.com/2015/10/26/liverpool-southampton-11-klopp-draws-again-with-multiple-formation-changes/

Interesting part on Origi,lallana and coutinho
"Although the Origi – Lallana – Coutinho attack lasted for only the first 45 minutes, it demonstrated some potential for success with effective rotational movements. Origi quite frequently dropped off of the defensive line whilst a ’10’ would move higher up so that the Belgian could move free in a deeper position. Through doing so, they worked well against Southampton’s man-marking scheme which generally was too strict to deal with local rotations."


Loads of things i didn't even notice until reading that!
« Last Edit: October 27, 2015, 06:38:21 am by LiamG »

Offline rickardinho1

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Re: Round Table LFC 1-1 Southampton
« Reply #7 on: October 27, 2015, 07:17:05 am »
Brilliant tactical analysis here http://spielverlagerung.com/2015/10/26/liverpool-southampton-11-klopp-draws-again-with-multiple-formation-changes/

Interesting part on Origi,lallana and coutinho
"Although the Origi – Lallana – Coutinho attack lasted for only the first 45 minutes, it demonstrated some potential for success with effective rotational movements. Origi quite frequently dropped off of the defensive line whilst a ’10’ would move higher up so that the Belgian could move free in a deeper position. Through doing so, they worked well against Southampton’s man-marking scheme which generally was too strict to deal with local rotations."


Loads of things i didn't even notice until reading that!
Interesting article, thanks for sharing.

I think a couple of tactical tweaks came as a natural consequence of changing personnel, but it's interesting to see how much our shape evolved in the second half.

A big plus to take out of this game is Lucas' involvement and how Klopp's trust in him seemingly grew. Klopp was clearly keen to protect central areas in the first half, but as the game wore on he gradually opened the team up to push for a goal, giving Lucas increasingly more responsibility. Had Lucas not been so impressive I doubt Klopp would have been satisfied with pushing Can and Milner forwards so much in the second half, effectively letting Lucas sweep up on his own. In effect, Lucas gave the rest of the team a platform to play from, and I expect Klopp to try to build around Lucas in the next few games for that reason.

Out of curiosity I just checked whoscored and not surprisingly Lucas was by far their MOTM. His stats are quite ridiculous:

Successful tackles: 7
Interceptions: 6
Touches: 96 (by far the most in the game)
Pass completion: 89.1%
Successful passes: 75 (tied-most with Sakho)
Key passes: 1
Aerials won: 2

Lucas actually has the highest tackles per game (5.9) in the league this season (6.3 on a per-90 basis), with the next best on 4.3. I think it's safe to say that he's near his best again.

Interestingly Firmino also has a high number of tackles at 5.5 tackles per 90, which puts him in tied 3rd (tied with Dembele behind only Lucas and Danny Rose) in the league for players with a minimum of 110mins played (Firmino has 262mins). Having an attacking midfielder who makes more tackles than other team's DM's (eg. Matic 4.5, Fernandinho 4.0) is pretty "cool" :D

In case anyone was wondering, tackles-per-90 for a few other players are:

Lucas 6.3
Firmino 5.5
Lallana 3.7
Rossiter 3.7 (in 2 EL games)
Henderson 3.2
Moreno 3.0
Milner 2.9
Clyne 2.8
Gomez 2.5
Can 2.3

Another couple of interesting stats I came across:
- Joe Allen has only played 21 minutes in the league this season, spread across 3 games.
- Contrary to the perception that Rossiter is short, he is 1.78, which is actually only 1cm shorter than Lucas. Judging by this photo I think that must be a mistake though, as he looks to be closer to Allen's 1.68 or Lallana's 1.73.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2015, 08:02:30 am by rickardinho1 »

Offline Messiah

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Re: Round Table LFC 1-1 Southampton
« Reply #8 on: October 27, 2015, 08:14:05 am »
Contrary to the perception that Rossiter is short, he is 1.78, which is actually only 1cm shorter than Lucas. Judging by this photo I think that must be a mistake though, as he looks to be closer to Allen's 1.68 or Lallana's 1.73.

Well keep in mind when that photo was taken he was only 17. He's still growing. He definitely looks taller to me this season.
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Offline leivapool

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Re: Round Table LFC 1-1 Southampton
« Reply #9 on: October 27, 2015, 09:11:13 am »
Can anyone more tactically astute than me isolate the tactical changes Klopp made during the game because Lucas (and MIlner & Can) certainly seemed to change systems mulitple times during the game,  with Lucas regularly speaking with Klopp on the touchline,  even missing the goal celebration to do so.
Rossiter absolutely bossed it tonight. Really believe he'll end up playing more games this season than Lucas.


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Offline rickardinho1

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Re: Round Table LFC 1-1 Southampton
« Reply #10 on: October 27, 2015, 09:13:28 am »
Can anyone more tactically astute than me isolate the tactical changes Klopp made during the game because Lucas (and MIlner & Can) certainly seemed to change systems mulitple times during the game,  with Lucas regularly speaking with Klopp on the touchline,  even missing the goal celebration to do so.
The best place to start is this article:
Brilliant tactical analysis here http://spielverlagerung.com/2015/10/26/liverpool-southampton-11-klopp-draws-again-with-multiple-formation-changes/

Offline rickardinho1

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Re: Round Table LFC 1-1 Southampton
« Reply #11 on: October 27, 2015, 09:27:13 am »
As ever over the last few years, we seem to come back to a compromise (and perhaps compromised) midfield to allay problems elsewhere and to compensate for the lack of the 'complete' central midfielder; in this case, hopefully, a short-lived one as Klopp gets his ideas across on the first issue, at least. On the second, the return of Henderson will help, but perhaps not solve the issue.

It seems most likely that most Klopp shapes will have four defenders and a striker. How to arrange the five in between, to protect the defence, support the attack and provide a cohesive flow between the two? It's probably the fundamental issue that Rodgers never solved with this group of players.

So far, it seems, Klopp's immediate idea is almost a Venables Christmas Tree. Lucas will hover just infront of or occasionally drop between the CBs - who don't split anything like the 13/14 Rodgers shape. Milner and Can play surprisingly wide much of the time as the other 'central' midfielders. On occasion, a Southampton counter was able to pass through the centre fairly easily and quickly because our three became one, with the flanking midfielders having half an eye on filling in for marauding fullbacks. If this is to be a long term shape, one might expect us to be prioritising a left footed midfielder sooner rather than later, as Can's effectiveness seems restricted at times playing very close to the left touchline.

But will it be the long term plan, or do we revert to 4231 when we have the players available (or signed) to do it justice?

If and when Sturridge's knees dry out, I'd be increasingly unsurprised to see him tucked in on the right, assuming he's willing to put the effort in, with Benteke taking precedence up top. We still have Coutinho, Lallana and Firmino for the positions in a 'three' (currently two) and, perhaps Origi may be better suited to one of those roles, as he doesn't seem to have the natural movement instincts of a striker (and at some point, Markovic may return).

But do we have a natural midfield two, to permit an attacking three - at least, in the home games we should be dominating? Will we see one on Wednesday? There are probably question marks over every contender for those roles operating in a two and it almost inevitably removes the positives we get from Lucas; Henderson and (maybe, long term) Can perhaps apart. But if we don't, it's not clear that we have enough creativity and goals from the two flanking Lucas, either. Milner and Henderson perhaps in the (relatively) short term, but it still looks a bit... plodding, without being too critical. The Rodgers-era options of Coutinho or Lallana on the side of a diamond don't look like viable options in our brave new world. Where do they all fit - and for how long does Coutinho merit the status of our 'best player' if he isn't?

Meanwhile suddenly the defence looks almost transformed. Sakho had his weakest game under Klopp, but still dominated his direct opponents for most of the game, and Skrtel put in his best performance for some time. Moreno's recovery pace is astonishing - and for all the criticism of his delivery, he put in a beautiful cross in the first half that should have been attacked better. Clyne was a bit timid on the ball, but should progress. Mignolet caught a cross and came out to collect at someone's feet. My TV seemed to be on the blink though, as every overarm throw out appeared to be in slow motion.

On a particularly positive note, I can see that side (with Benteke in for Origi and perhaps Firmino for Coutinho) getting a result at Chelsea.
Speaking of left footed midfelders, if Allan gets a work permit and returns to us in January I'd be quite keen to see if he could fit into our midfield, either as cover for Lucas or in that LM role Can is playing. I reckon a midfield base of Lucas-Allan could be pretty effective if Allan can make the step up.

Whilst it's probably quite premature to expect Allan to impact our first team, his energy and tenacity could be an asset for us, and he also has awesome delivery on corners and set pieces as an added bonus as that's an area we struggle in.

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Re: Round Table LFC 1-1 Southampton
« Reply #12 on: October 27, 2015, 09:44:24 am »
Speaking of left footed midfelders, if Allan gets a work permit and returns to us in January I'd be quite keen to see if he could fit into our midfield, either as cover for Lucas or in that LM role Can is playing. I reckon a midfield base of Lucas-Allan could be pretty effective if Allan can make the step up.

Whilst it's probably quite premature to expect Allan to impact our first team, his energy and tenacity could be an asset for us, and he also has awesome delivery on corners and set pieces as an added bonus as that's an area we struggle in.

I thought I had read that the season there was over. Which would mean he would be able to train for a couple of months while waiting for a permit

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Re: Round Table LFC 1-1 Southampton
« Reply #13 on: October 27, 2015, 09:49:45 am »
Controlled the game better than I expected. I thought Southampton would have their fair share of possession and chances, but we did well keeping both to a minimum. Dealt will Pelle comfortably.

As a defensive unit I think we're much, much better than we were under Rodgers (high praise, I know). Still plenty of room for improvement, but good to see positive early signs.

I still think we're too ponderous in attack. I mentioned this at half time the other day, but watch Origi and see how many times he's on the shoulder of a defender waiting for a ball to be played through, and it never comes. I'm surprised Coutinho hasn't pinged a few through for him, as that is his bread and butter. I don't mind Lallana as a player, but he really needs to stop hogging the ball. The amount of times he brings an attack to an immediate halt is criminal. One touch football is what he is best at, which makes it all the more frustrating. He's grafting well under Klopp, but unless he cuts out the eight, nine and ten touches, he won't be around to graft for very long.

Us being mentally weak is no surprise. I've banged on about it for years that we're one of the most mentally fragile teams in the league. I have no doubt that will change under Klopp.

It's a pity we haven't managed to get one or two wins, especially on Sunday, but overall, very positive signs under Klopp.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2015, 09:51:20 am by A Porcine Skull Of Fallen Virtue »

Offline leivapool

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Re: Round Table LFC 1-1 Southampton
« Reply #14 on: October 27, 2015, 10:13:26 am »
The best place to start is this article:

Cheers :)
Rossiter absolutely bossed it tonight. Really believe he'll end up playing more games this season than Lucas.


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Re: Round Table LFC 1-1 Southampton
« Reply #15 on: October 27, 2015, 10:29:00 am »
(based on the TV so I'm well aware I will have missed stuff from the live game)

Positives:
Can - plenty of energy and some good passing
Lallana - made himself an option regularly, some really neat first and second touches
Bentecke - great, great header
Milner - great cross and high mileage, as always
Lucas - looks a lot more comfortable under Klopp, I didn't always feel he'd give away a free kick on the edge of the area with a silly foul!
Sakho - he really is 100% better than he looks!  I'm growing more comfortable watching him on the ball.
Skrtel - thought he defended a little further up the pitch than he has of late.

Negatives:
Can - began to look tired and pushed too far to the left at times.  I hope he gets a rest tomorrow.
Lallana - poor final third decision making.  Plenty of application, very little end product.
Milner - Silly, silly free-kick and poor defending for their goal.  Needs more end product.
Coutinho - Way off par.  It may be a little too early to worry but is showing signs that his heart isn't in it.  Not on the same wavelength as Origi, although that's probably better explained as Origi not being on the same wavelength as Coutinho which I hope explains some of his frustration and body language.

Herr Klopp has a bigger job on his hands than he possibly thought 2 weeks ago.  We do have a decent squat, albeit with some really key and significant injuries currently.  So much of all this is in their heads though, as Klopp himself pointed out.  Southampton are a decent side, but we should be beating them at home.  The Spuds away result was good but drawing at home to Rubin and Southampton has been very frustrating.  Most of the problems are in the final third of the pitch, unless we concede a goal whereby the defence and midfield retreat, terrified of conceding again.  We're such a mentally fragile side, I can't help but feel that a 1-0 win for us would have been huge, huge step in the right direction for us.  Sadly, we were the architects of our own sorry loss of 2 points ultimately.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2015, 11:23:16 am by wah00ey »
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Re: Round Table LFC 1-1 Southampton
« Reply #16 on: October 27, 2015, 11:04:23 am »
Brilliant tactical analysis here http://spielverlagerung.com/2015/10/26/liverpool-southampton-11-klopp-draws-again-with-multiple-formation-changes/

Interesting part on Origi,lallana and coutinho
"Although the Origi – Lallana – Coutinho attack lasted for only the first 45 minutes, it demonstrated some potential for success with effective rotational movements. Origi quite frequently dropped off of the defensive line whilst a ’10’ would move higher up so that the Belgian could move free in a deeper position. Through doing so, they worked well against Southampton’s man-marking scheme which generally was too strict to deal with local rotations."


Loads of things i didn't even notice until reading that!

thanks for that

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Re: Round Table LFC 1-1 Southampton
« Reply #17 on: October 27, 2015, 11:29:36 am »
I dont agree with this, i think already we are moving away from this, we are looking to attack from more areas and with more than just the 1 saviour.

Clyne / Moreno have each been in great positions deep inside the opponents box in the last few games only to freeze / not know the movement of the players, which with the injuries we have had in forward positions is only to be expected, in a few weeks both will know that benteke likes to take a step back for a pull back as opposed to attacking a post and so on with other players arriving from deep etc.

lallana is taking his share of responsibility for creating (although having had nothing to hit for 3 games its been hard), i cant think of many instances where individuals have been helplessly looking for Coutinho to deliver.

We have to stop taking pot shots though, by all means create space for a shot but the hit and hope is beyond a joke.

Its going to come to the point where Klopp has to choose between Coutinho & Lallana, obviously Coutinho is the better player but lallana probably plays in the better areas and tactically he would be my choice from the 2 currently, of course Coutinho could have a huge impact from a deeper area, but as an attacking mid who has to support a front man he is dropping too deep and not getting close enough or beyond the front

Just on this point ,this problem with Coutinho is exclusive to Liverpool with him. I watched a lot of him as a kid breaking through here in Brazil. In fact even for the National team this past summer he was playing as a support striker and getting into the box a lot. He was top scorer for Brazil in the 2009 South American Under-17 Football Championship that I remember watching.

Then I also think of 2013/14 Coutinho. Those 1-touch plays he was central too. The interceptions and instant through balls from deep.

So I can see with him that a lot of the problems he is having right now might be down to coaching. I genuinely believe Rodgers was coaching and instructing him to do what he is doing right now. He was doing extra work on his shooting, learning to make space for the shots around the box because it was a weapon to use when people just back off him.

The problem is - I still think Klopp won´t be working much with the attack. So the Coutinho we see now is likely what we will be seeing for a while yet. Unless something clicks with himself. So do we drop him until we can coach him to play 1-touch stuff again and to start getting into the box again instead of staying outside it as our long range threat? Or do we keep playing him? Tough call for Klopp.
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Re: Round Table LFC 1-1 Southampton
« Reply #18 on: October 27, 2015, 11:32:07 am »
(based on the TV so I'm well aware I will have missed stuff from the live game)

Positives:
Can - plenty of energy and some good passing
Lallana - made himself an option regularly, some really neat first and second touches
Bentecke - great, great header
Milner - great cross and high mileage, as always
Lucas - looks a lot more comfortable under Klopp, I didn't always feel he'd give away a free kick on the edge of the area with a silly foul!
Sakho - he really is 100% better than he looks!  I'm growing more comfortable watching him on the ball.
Skrtel - thought he defended a little further up the pitch than he has of late.



I think your observation about Skrtel explains your commentary about Lucas.

The higher line is helping Lucas as it reduces the space he has to cover as well as moving that space further up the pitch. So the need for him to chase runners deep is reduced. Skrtel had a good match and moved up the pitch allowing that higher line. It was not what we have come to expect from Skrtel, usually dropping back like an ice hockey defender and then making a lunging tackle that puts the ball out for a throw by the opposition. Instead he was on his feet higher up the pitch.

It's funny because here in rawk the Christmas shopping wish lists are being written already. However, if Klopp can teach a couple of old dogs like Skrtel and Lucas a few new tricks, then there is more potential improvement in this squad. It may be nearer to Christmas before we see who can adapt and improve and who can't.

Many of us, myself included, thought early on that Gomez and even Lovren would be a better partner to Sakho under Klopp than the retreating Skrtel. It's only one match, but maybe writing off Skrtel was premature...

Truly onwards and upwards. :)


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Offline JackWard33

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Re: Round Table LFC 1-1 Southampton
« Reply #19 on: October 27, 2015, 12:24:08 pm »
I'm surprised more hasn't been written about the goal we conceded. It's a terrible terrible goal to concede.
From a free kick that's so far out we lost 3 opportunities to contest the ball .... except we didn't lose them we didn't even contest. 2 free headers then the finish with barely a Southampton player touched.
That's not just a failure of organisation that's a failure to compete and it was team wide
We're actually not as bad defensively as people think - we don't conceded a lot of chances (under either manager) or give up a lot of shots, we're not stellar but generally we're fine.. however our ability to switch off and either lose focus or just not want to defend hard enough in critical situations is an endemic problem

The attack is a far far bigger issue for this team
Whether it's Rodgers or Klopp we're just creating so few dangerous chances.
We actually play really well through the midfield and usually find it easy to get to the opponents final third - albeit sometimes too slowly - as we did vs Southampton but we're so blunt in that final third it's not true.
Our 4 biggest goal threats (in terms of creation and scoring) are Sturridge, Benteke, Henderson and Firmino - with all of them out it's been a struggle.

It's going to be hard to get an attack that really works with this squad. We've got 3 AMs Lallana, Coutinho and Firmino all of whom want to carry the ball and be central.
He also needs to decide what to do with Coutinho. More and more it looks like he isn't a forward. Some posters are saying he's out of form but I'm not so sure - I think it's more that at the end of last season some of his shots were flying in so he looked better further forward than he is. We want him to be our Kaka (a goal scoring 10) or Silva (a final third creative monster) but at the moment he's Luis Garcia - a talented player but one who produces moments of genius while having quite a low overall level.
His best moment of the match was the ball over the top for Lallana which he played from the '8' position, from deeper and there's a good chance this is where he should be.

We desperately need 1 or 2 pacey AMs with goal threat to change this team
Getting our injured players back will be huge but it's still going to be tough to arrange us as an effective attacking set up because the squad is so un balanced 

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Re: Round Table LFC 1-1 Southampton
« Reply #20 on: October 27, 2015, 12:37:36 pm »
I think that this game has only helped to cement Lucas' place within the squad moving forward into Klopp's tenure. This is a fella with extensive Champions League experience and who has been involved in two of our best title pushes in recent years. Plus he's amazingly still only 28. To think that he could have been gone in the summer brings a shudder to my spine. It was interesting seeing him in constant dialogue with Klopp throughout, relaying messages and instructions and making tweaks to his position here and there. With this in mind, I keep having the same thought flashing through my mind: why isn't he the vice-captain? Is Klopp honouring the existing arrangement in Hendo's absence, or is he biding his time and will make a change at some point in the future?

Who knows, least of all me. I'm not psychic and have no secret inner knowledge of any sort. I just see a leader in Lucas, a player who does the stuff that doesn't get replayed endlessly on Soccer AM or Fletch and Sav, or any of the other bollocks that surrounds the modern game. He's one of those guys that just does his job, and really well at that. The point made earlier about Skrtel having a better game is key, as there is the foundation for solidity being built there. We shouldn't forget that Saints have some pretty decent guys in the middle, and to a large extent Lucas dealt with them. As Rickardinho pointed out earlier, his stats for the game were unbelievable. Having him there as the bedrock, the guy Klopp can trust, will pay dividends eventually as Jurgen makes further adjustments around the pitch. Firmino will only get more aggressive in his play as he gets fitter, Benteke looks like he's getting close to being his usual self. The signs are looking positive.

Mind you, it was annoying as fuck that the one real mistake we made was punished, but that's the way it goes in football. At least we aren't making 6 of them a game any more.

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Re: Round Table LFC 1-1 Southampton
« Reply #21 on: October 27, 2015, 12:44:16 pm »
I think your observation about Skrtel explains your commentary about Lucas.

The higher line is helping Lucas as it reduces the space he has to cover as well as moving that space further up the pitch. So the need for him to chase runners deep is reduced. Skrtel had a good match and moved up the pitch allowing that higher line. It was not what we have come to expect from Skrtel, usually dropping back like an ice hockey defender and then making a lunging tackle that puts the ball out for a throw by the opposition. Instead he was on his feet higher up the pitch.

It's funny because here in rawk the Christmas shopping wish lists are being written already. However, if Klopp can teach a couple of old dogs like Skrtel and Lucas a few new tricks, then there is more potential improvement in this squad. It may be nearer to Christmas before we see who can adapt and improve and who can't.

Many of us, myself included, thought early on that Gomez and even Lovren would be a better partner to Sakho under Klopp than the retreating Skrtel. It's only one match, but maybe writing off Skrtel was premature...

Truly onwards and upwards. :)


Maybe you missed them, and I say them because there were multiple different examples of it in the Southampton match alone, but there are lots of pictures of Skrtel being several yards behind the rest of the defence playing everyone onside. Including the van Dijk header that really should have been a goal. He also played on the Rubin Kazan forward for their goal in midweek.

Skrtel is being tolerated by Klopp up until the point he isn´t anymore. With Gomez and Lovren both injured and the only other option is a much older player whose legs aren´t going to handle the more physically demanding game Klopp wants... I think Skrtel is playing out of consequence than by design right now. I would be astounded if that was still the case come 1 Feb for many reasons.

New managers always address problems in the spine of the team when they join.
Evans first summer signings were Scales & Babb
Houllier´s first included Hyypia, Henchoz, Westerveld & Hamann
Rafa´s first business was to get Xabi Alonso.
Rodgers = Allen

Skrtel is a problem right now. Always has been. How he wants to defend is at conflict with how Klopp wants us to defend. I can´t see it being coached out of him. The backing off thing, which is a really weird trait he has for a footballer, seems to be carried over from his childhood as an ice hockey defenceman. It´s the exact same movement you make in ice hockey when defending. Retreat and then react when the puck carrier is winding up to try and block the pass/shot. Yet he´s still doing it despite being coached by numerous people at club and national level. It´s an instinct thing. He goes into his shell when under pressure to find a solution to the problem. It´s human nature, fight or flight.

Threat = Retreat

The other problem we have right now, and IMO this is the biggest the squad has right now, is that Lucas appears one again to be our lynchpin. It´s very dangerous to have a team that seems held together by 1 player and yet that is what I see now with Lucas on the pitch. We struggled badly for 45 minutes without him against Russian Relegation battlers Rubin Kazan. Signing a DM is an absolute necessity and, also IMO, it should be someone in the Mascherano mould. A natural born leader, a fighter and with a lot of tactical smarts too.

So I think that is the two biggest problems with our spine right now. We have enough in our squad to build around the spine if we get it right.
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Re: Round Table LFC 1-1 Southampton
« Reply #22 on: October 27, 2015, 12:49:34 pm »
I see a theme running through the posts of people about our attack. How little has changed. Slow in build up. Waiting for moments of brilliance. Lack f movement etc

Just wanted to point out .... I think Klopp hasn´t even started on the attack yet. He pretty much said as much. What we are seeing on the pitch right now is Brendan Rodger's Liverpool with the ball and Klopp´s Liverpool without the ball. Until he is happy with us off the ball, I think he won´t even start tackling who we are with the ball.
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Re: Round Table LFC 1-1 Southampton
« Reply #23 on: October 27, 2015, 01:00:17 pm »
I see a theme running through the posts of people about our attack. How little has changed. Slow in build up. Waiting for moments of brilliance. Lack f movement etc

Just wanted to point out .... I think Klopp hasn´t even started on the attack yet. He pretty much said as much. What we are seeing on the pitch right now is Brendan Rodger's Liverpool with the ball and Klopp´s Liverpool without the ball. Until he is happy with us off the ball, I think he won´t even start tackling who we are with the ball.

That's fair enough and I'm sure you're right - not least because it's hard to work on the attack with all your best attackers injured.

However the concern is with the make up of our squad and our attack as a whole. It's also concerning that we don't have the kind of attackers that have prospered under Klopp and that it's hard to see exactly how they would all work together when fit. We have so little pace and so few players suited to rapid counter attacking football.
We still have talent and the situation will improve as our health does but it'll take some time to sort out our attacking balance

Offline Arrowsmith

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Re: Round Table LFC 1-1 Southampton
« Reply #24 on: October 27, 2015, 01:04:39 pm »
Benteke, is a beast. That header was probably one of the best I've seen in a long time. Majestic.  I think with a good run of games and with his fitness returning, we are going to have a focal point in our attack that will worry many a defence. On his day, unplayable and in one half showed more than Origi did in 3.

Spot on... I think Benteke could be the player that Kenny thought he was signing in Carroll.
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Offline SerbianScouser

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Re: Round Table LFC 1-1 Southampton
« Reply #25 on: October 27, 2015, 01:17:39 pm »
However the concern is with the make up of our squad and our attack as a whole.
Concern is legitimate but I`d say we`re not miles off the solution. One or two inspired signings, getting Henderson, Firmino and Sturridge on the pitch and we`re pretty much there. In this very moment in time for example you put Mane instead of Lallana as our attacking player between the lines and you`d see a stark improvement.

You`re right in saying we`re unbalanced offensively though for me we`re 1 or 2 players away rather than 5 or 6.

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Re: Round Table LFC 1-1 Southampton
« Reply #26 on: October 27, 2015, 01:20:44 pm »
Concern is legitimate but I`d say we`re not miles off the solution. One or two inspired signings, getting Henderson, Firmino and Sturridge on the pitch and we`re pretty much there. In this very moment in time for example you put Mane instead of Lallana as our attacking player between the lines and you`d see a stark improvement.

You`re right in saying we`re unbalanced offensively though for me we`re 1 or 2 players away rather than 5 or 6.

I think your being optimistic with how far away we are. We need a keeper, a right centre back, a deep lying midfielder who can start attacks, a wide player and a world class forward who isn't injured all the time. That's realistically where we are. And we won't win a thing until we get them in or develop the current players into them.

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Re: Round Table LFC 1-1 Southampton
« Reply #27 on: October 27, 2015, 01:22:48 pm »
I think your being optimistic with how far away we are. We need a keeper, a right centre back, a deep lying midfielder who can start attacks, a wide player and a world class forward who isn't injured all the time. That's realistically where we are. And we won't win a thing until we get them in or develop the current players into them.
I was actually addressing our offensive side of the game specifically - the front 6.

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Re: Round Table LFC 1-1 Southampton
« Reply #28 on: October 27, 2015, 01:25:21 pm »
I think that this game has only helped to cement Lucas' place within the squad moving forward into Klopp's tenure. This is a fella with extensive Champions League experience and who has been involved in two of our best title pushes in recent years. Plus he's amazingly still only 28. To think that he could have been gone in the summer brings a shudder to my spine. It was interesting seeing him in constant dialogue with Klopp throughout, relaying messages and instructions and making tweaks to his position here and there. With this in mind, I keep having the same thought flashing through my mind: why isn't he the vice-captain? Is Klopp honouring the existing arrangement in Hendo's absence, or is he biding his time and will make a change at some point in the future?

Who knows, least of all me. I'm not psychic and have no secret inner knowledge of any sort. I just see a leader in Lucas, a player who does the stuff that doesn't get replayed endlessly on Soccer AM or Fletch and Sav, or any of the other bollocks that surrounds the modern game. He's one of those guys that just does his job, and really well at that. The point made earlier about Skrtel having a better game is key, as there is the foundation for solidity being built there. We shouldn't forget that Saints have some pretty decent guys in the middle, and to a large extent Lucas dealt with them. As Rickardinho pointed out earlier, his stats for the game were unbelievable. Having him there as the bedrock, the guy Klopp can trust, will pay dividends eventually as Jurgen makes further adjustments around the pitch. Firmino will only get more aggressive in his play as he gets fitter, Benteke looks like he's getting close to being his usual self. The signs are looking positive.

Mind you, it was annoying as fuck that the one real mistake we made was punished, but that's the way it goes in football. At least we aren't making 6 of them a game any more.

I am looking forward to a midfield two of Lucas and Henderson. I think it will be a complimentary pairing. And Lucas, with his understanding of what Klopp wants, should help Henderson when he comes back from his injury.

The only downside is that I hope we get someone in who can play Lucas' role in case he gets injured.

According to this site, Lucas is #1 in the top 5 leagues in Europe for tackles won per match: http://www.football365.com/news/numbers-and-stats-europes-top-five-leagues-2

*Interestingly the other LFC player that appears on these lists is Phil...for shots per match...
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Re: Round Table LFC 1-1 Southampton
« Reply #29 on: October 27, 2015, 01:26:07 pm »
I was actually addressing our offensive side of the game specifically - the front 6.

Attacks start from the back though, the back five if you will and we're so laborious in that aspect. Were slow upstairs, we have dosey footballers, specifically Skrtel and Mignolet.

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Re: Round Table LFC 1-1 Southampton
« Reply #30 on: October 27, 2015, 01:45:40 pm »
I think that this game has only helped to cement Lucas' place within the squad moving forward into Klopp's tenure. This is a fella with extensive Champions League experience and who has been involved in two of our best title pushes in recent years. Plus he's amazingly still only 28. To think that he could have been gone in the summer brings a shudder to my spine. It was interesting seeing him in constant dialogue with Klopp throughout, relaying messages and instructions and making tweaks to his position here and there. With this in mind, I keep having the same thought flashing through my mind: why isn't he the vice-captain? Is Klopp honouring the existing arrangement in Hendo's absence, or is he biding his time and will make a change at some point in the future?

Who knows, least of all me. I'm not psychic and have no secret inner knowledge of any sort. I just see a leader in Lucas, a player who does the stuff that doesn't get replayed endlessly on Soccer AM or Fletch and Sav, or any of the other bollocks that surrounds the modern game. He's one of those guys that just does his job, and really well at that. The point made earlier about Skrtel having a better game is key, as there is the foundation for solidity being built there. We shouldn't forget that Saints have some pretty decent guys in the middle, and to a large extent Lucas dealt with them. As Rickardinho pointed out earlier, his stats for the game were unbelievable. Having him there as the bedrock, the guy Klopp can trust, will pay dividends eventually as Jurgen makes further adjustments around the pitch. Firmino will only get more aggressive in his play as he gets fitter, Benteke looks like he's getting close to being his usual self. The signs are looking positive.

Mind you, it was annoying as fuck that the one real mistake we made was punished, but that's the way it goes in football. At least we aren't making 6 of them a game any more.

I used to think the same about Mascherano under Rafa. You would see people sprint off to celebrate and realise he was running over to Rafa, getting new orders, then settling us down before they kicked off again. He was our on the pitch leader a lot of the time under Rafa. Sure, Gerrard was the club captain, led by example, everyone looked up and respected and admired him. But on the pitch, Masch was the one translated Rafa´s wants into events on the pitch.

What I realised then is.... the captaincy, or VC, is just a title. Gerrard was our captain and all the eyes were on him. But Masch was our General. As long as the manager and players respected him, it worked. Sure, it would be nice for more formal recognition of his role but maybe he doesn´t care about that. Maybe all Mascherano cared about was winning.

So let Milner and Henderson be our role models. Lucas can be our general. Until Ruben Neves and Xhaka are ready at least to take over ;) :D
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Re: Round Table LFC 1-1 Southampton
« Reply #31 on: October 27, 2015, 01:54:10 pm »
Attacks start from the back though, the back five if you will and we're so laborious in that aspect. Were slow upstairs, we have dosey footballers, specifically Skrtel and Mignolet.

The Mignolet thing drives me mad.  There was one incident on Sunday where Lucas was central and called for the ball.  Mignolet saw him,  and instead of releasing the ball he took what seemed like an age,  must have been 5 seconds,  before releasing the ball to Lucas who was by this time closed down.  Lucas being Lucas got the ball away cleanly,  but what the absolute f*ck goes on in Mignolet's head?  It's like he sees the pass and then takes 5 seconds for the command to reach his feet.  Very disturbing and a massive problem as it removes any hope of a fast counter even if the attackers are all positioned for one
Rossiter absolutely bossed it tonight. Really believe he'll end up playing more games this season than Lucas.


Henderson won't make it here. Sorry but he won't and won't

Offline Butcher Knife Roberto

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Re: Round Table LFC 1-1 Southampton
« Reply #32 on: October 27, 2015, 02:24:02 pm »
I used to think the same about Mascherano under Rafa. You would see people sprint off to celebrate and realise he was running over to Rafa, getting new orders, then settling us down before they kicked off again. He was our on the pitch leader a lot of the time under Rafa. Sure, Gerrard was the club captain, led by example, everyone looked up and respected and admired him. But on the pitch, Masch was the one translated Rafa´s wants into events on the pitch.

What I realised then is.... the captaincy, or VC, is just a title. Gerrard was our captain and all the eyes were on him. But Masch was our General. As long as the manager and players respected him, it worked. Sure, it would be nice for more formal recognition of his role but maybe he doesn´t care about that. Maybe all Mascherano cared about was winning.

So let Milner and Henderson be our role models. Lucas can be our general. Until Ruben Neves and Xhaka are ready at least to take over ;) :D

You're spot on, I had Mascherano in my head as well thinking of how Lucas is influencing the game, but couldn't explain it as well as you have!

I like having that good solid foundation in there, giving people freedom ahead to express themselves creatively in attack. The signs are there for sure, and once we cut out the brainfarts in defence then it really could click beautifully once Klopp starts focusing on the attack.

I for one am happy to forgive a few awkward performances if it means that the players are learning, the team is bonding, and most of all we are moving forward as a club. That goes for the fans as much as the players and coaching staff. So it's 3 draws, big deal. We've only conceded twice in 3 league games - we shipped 9 in the previous 4. Progress is evident.

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Re: Round Table LFC 1-1 Southampton
« Reply #33 on: October 27, 2015, 02:27:56 pm »
I am looking forward to a midfield two of Lucas and Henderson. I think it will be a complimentary pairing. And Lucas, with his understanding of what Klopp wants, should help Henderson when he comes back from his injury.

The only downside is that I hope we get someone in who can play Lucas' role in case he gets injured.

According to this site, Lucas is #1 in the top 5 leagues in Europe for tackles won per match: http://www.football365.com/news/numbers-and-stats-europes-top-five-leagues-2

*Interestingly the other LFC player that appears on these lists is Phil...for shots per match...
Firmino would also appear in that list if per-90 was used instead of per-game, with an impressive 5.5 tackles per-90, which is quite frankly ludicrous for an attacking player.

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Re: Round Table LFC 1-1 Southampton
« Reply #34 on: October 27, 2015, 02:32:07 pm »
I used to think the same about Mascherano under Rafa. You would see people sprint off to celebrate and realise he was running over to Rafa, getting new orders, then settling us down before they kicked off again. He was our on the pitch leader a lot of the time under Rafa. Sure, Gerrard was the club captain, led by example, everyone looked up and respected and admired him. But on the pitch, Masch was the one translated Rafa´s wants into events on the pitch.

What I realised then is.... the captaincy, or VC, is just a title. Gerrard was our captain and all the eyes were on him. But Masch was our General. As long as the manager and players respected him, it worked. Sure, it would be nice for more formal recognition of his role but maybe he doesn´t care about that. Maybe all Mascherano cared about was winning.

So let Milner and Henderson be our role models. Lucas can be our general. Until Ruben Neves and Granit Xhaka are ready at least to take over ;) :D
Awww yeah  8)

Great point about Mascherano, it's a small thing that rarely gets noticed but makes a big difference on the pitch. Good post about Skrtel earlier, agree with all of that... not sure if you saw my post compiling Skrtels collection of last-man situations btw? There are a couple of examples from the Southampton game as you say.
« Last Edit: October 27, 2015, 02:37:56 pm by rickardinho1 »

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Re: Round Table LFC 1-1 Southampton
« Reply #35 on: October 27, 2015, 02:35:28 pm »
The Mignolet thing drives me mad.  There was one incident on Sunday where Lucas was central and called for the ball.  Mignolet saw him,  and instead of releasing the ball he took what seemed like an age,  must have been 5 seconds,  before releasing the ball to Lucas who was by this time closed down.  Lucas being Lucas got the ball away cleanly,  but what the absolute f*ck goes on in Mignolet's head?  It's like he sees the pass and then takes 5 seconds for the command to reach his feet.  Very disturbing and a massive problem as it removes any hope of a fast counter even if the attackers are all positioned for one
Mignolet has already noticeably improved the speed of his distribution since Klopp arrived (not to mention making several great saves), so I don't think it's something we should be criticising in detail at this point. Let's give Simon a chance to adapt to Klopp before we get the pitchforks out! :D

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Re: Round Table LFC 1-1 Southampton
« Reply #36 on: October 27, 2015, 03:13:46 pm »
This is a brilliant article if you want to see the number of changes Klopp made second half to try and change the course of the game. I particularly liked the gif below showing how Klopp changed things in the second half.

It should put to bed the notion that Klopp isn´t a very tactical coach which I have seen in some quarters.

My first article on Anfield Index on Shaqiri. Enjoy. bit.ly/2mAq3Qd

Offline ericthered10

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Re: Round Table LFC 1-1 Southampton
« Reply #37 on: October 27, 2015, 03:21:38 pm »
Only just found that site recently, and spent hours reading articles. It's very very good.

Offline ghalied

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Re: Round Table LFC 1-1 Southampton
« Reply #38 on: October 27, 2015, 04:13:34 pm »
I'm liking the new regime. Klopp said he would begin with the defense and his influence has been immediate and impressive. Players like Lallana and Coutinho have purpose to their defensive industry, Sakho and Lucas are shining and we're well on the way having a comfortable high lying defense.

I might be oversimplifying it but our attack plan seemed to be:
1. Defenders either carry the ball or pass centrally to the midfielders.
2. Midfielders/attackers shoot if there is a chance, else push it wide.
3. Fullbacks create width and pump it to the middle

This all seems to be designed so that we don't lose the ball in dangerous areas of the pitch (i.e. centrally) and requires a mindset change from some players.

So I'm pretty happy the way the transition to Kloppstyletm is going. Questions I still have are:
1. Milner - can an old dog learn new tricks
2. Lovren/Skrtel - the random bungler vs the backtracker - so far Skrtel shaves it for me
3. Mignolet as sweeper keeper

Offline rickardinho1

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Re: Round Table LFC 1-1 Southampton
« Reply #39 on: October 27, 2015, 05:34:08 pm »
I'm liking the new regime. Klopp said he would begin with the defense and his influence has been immediate and impressive. Players like Lallana and Coutinho have purpose to their defensive industry, Sakho and Lucas are shining and we're well on the way having a comfortable high lying defense.

I might be oversimplifying it but our attack plan seemed to be:
1. Defenders either carry the ball or pass centrally to the midfielders.
2. Midfielders/attackers shoot if there is a chance, else push it wide.
3. Fullbacks create width and pump it to the middle

This all seems to be designed so that we don't lose the ball in dangerous areas of the pitch (i.e. centrally) and requires a mindset change from some players.

So I'm pretty happy the way the transition to Kloppstyletm is going. Questions I still have are:
1. Milner - can an old dog learn new tricks
2. Lovren/Skrtel - the random bungler vs the backtracker - so far Skrtel shaves it for me
3. Mignolet as sweeper keeper

1. Milner will be a useful player for us under Klopp. Perhaps not the most important player, but key nonetheless. He does everything asked of him of the ball, and I think his selfless movement in the final 3rd will be rewarded more as the team starts working on attacking patterns of play.

2. Lovren hasn't even played yet since Klopp arrived so there's no basis for that comparison.

3. Mignolet has done fine so far and Klopp has praised him on multiple occasions already. I doubt Klopp will even consider moving him before the summer, if at all.