Author Topic: Money Money Money, Mostly  (Read 24781 times)

Offline Timbo's Goals

  • Petrified of THE BEAST
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,445
  • JFT96
    • Timbos Liverpool
Re: Money Money Money, Mostly
« Reply #80 on: February 22, 2009, 11:54:51 pm »
No because my main point was that quality players do not want to sit on the bench. There is a natural dropoff in quality for that reason. Quite a few of Chelsea's acquisitions since their first year of the lottery season prove that - Wright Philips, Parker, Sidwell and others were all quality players for lesser teams who were acquired to start behind "better" players and ended up leaving because they don't get games.

Edit - whoops - sorry - the starting XI was your highlighted point - sorry.

Yes of course, you need *some* money to field a championship winning team. That's beyond question. At the same time, there are two points here - you spoke initially of the "quality of United's substitutions" and their squad depth as a whole. I was pointing out mainly that you cannot stock your squad with quality and expect worldclass players to be happy playing bit roles.

Secondly, in answer to your question about the starting XI, you don't always need as much money as your rivals to beat them. Our run to the CL proves that. The fact that we're above Chelsea and have beaten them at crucial points also speaks to that. Moyes has operated on a tighter budget than some other teams below him, and Leeds threw the bank at their squad but still ended up collapsing.

If you look back, decisions on what to do with with the money play as big a role as (if not bigger) than money itself. We spent 55 million on Heskey, Diouf, Cisse, and Keane. Spurs nicked Lennon and Dawson for a million each I think, they signed Berbatov for 10m, Arteta went to Everton for peanuts, as did Cahill, and we ourselves, instead of spending 30 million on Rio Ferdinand, plopped down the best 2 million this club has spent in a long time in signing Big Sami.

If you have a good scouting system, you can make do with less money.

I agree that we can't have good players happy to sit on the bench but we don't have the luxury to do so anyway.

As for any run in the CL - Rafa has proved that he can do so with the likes of Biscan ( I mentioned this earlier) but he cannot do that over the course of 38 league games. Biscan played a blinder against Leverkusen but that was probably about it.

Spurs signings - I agree - but they're in any way challenging for the title though are they?

With regards to Ferdinand, Man U needed a defender and they had the money to spend £30mil on him. So, our scouting for Skrtel and Agger was genius in that sense.

The point I've been trying to make is that if we want to challenge for the title then we shouldn't have to be making do with less money. Not when the team sitting above you are "making do" with more money.


Offline El Campeador

  • Capital of Culture's Campaign Manager...Transfer Board Veteran 5 Stars.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 20,721
  • The shupporters create chances, for sure, djes
Re: Money Money Money, Mostly
« Reply #81 on: February 23, 2009, 12:12:29 am »
I agree that we can't have good players happy to sit on the bench but we don't have the luxury to do so anyway.

Right, but you said in your original post that United brought good players off the bench, and we brought dross off the bench. If you go back to the Pompey game, it sort of negates your example of United rotating their starters to the bench, and bringing them off it when needed.

As for any run in the CL - Rafa has proved that he can do so with the likes of Biscan ( I mentioned this earlier) but he cannot do that over the course of 38 league games. Biscan played a blinder against Leverkusen but that was probably about it.

Over 38 league games, our starters in the middle of the park are usually Mascherano, Alonso, and Gerrard (a bit further up). Once in a while, we get struck by lightning and two of the three are unavailable. Still, even then, we're not too shabby. Aurelio played a good game in the middle of the park, and Lucas will improve as time goes on. It's a far cry from when Zenden was starting games in the middle of the park.

Spurs signings - I agree - but they're in any way challenging for the title though are they?

Not at all - my only point there was that you can find good players for less than their worth. Surely Lennon isn't the reason Spurs suck mad donkey dick. Paying almost 20 million for Bent may be.

With regards to Ferdinand, Man U needed a defender and they had the money to spend £30mil on him. So, our scouting for Skrtel and Agger was genius in that sense.

Right - again, my point was that money isn't the be all and end all of assembling a title-winning team.

The point I've been trying to make is that if we want to challenge for the title then we shouldn't have to be making do with less money. Not when the team sitting above you are "making do" with more money.

Is there a bottomless pit of money that exists somewhere that Rafa just isn't allowed to use? We may look back years from now and curse the day we over-leveraged ourselves financially to catch United. It's a slippery slope, this spending recklessly business. We let the two foxes into the chicken coop in an effort to "fund" our success, and ended up being indebted to the banks at a time when the credit markets collapsed.

If it takes longer to catch them without bankrupting ourselves, so be it.

Online JackWard33

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 25,730
  • President of the Harry Wilson fanclub
Re: Money Money Money, Mostly
« Reply #82 on: February 23, 2009, 12:20:09 am »
Its not all about money.
There is still a chance to be great if you scout well and find quality players before they become expensive high priced stars.

Our inability to act quickly and take advantage of quality players who were not quite at their max potential has killed us too often.
Dani Alves, Simao and CRonaldo fall into that category.

We just have to make sure that we are the BEST at recruiting young talent and are the BEST at finding the bargains that develop into world stars.


It's ironic you've picked those three players because it pisses on your point - Simao and Alves we wouldn't pay what was asked presumably because we couldn't, Ronaldo we were out bid

Offline mooks

  • struggles with difficult concepts - must try harder 5/10
  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 660
  • We all live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Money Money Money, Mostly
« Reply #83 on: February 23, 2009, 12:20:38 am »
Right, but you said in your original post that United brought good players off the bench, and we brought dross off the bench. If you go back to the Pompey game, it sort of negates your example of United rotating their starters to the bench, and bringing them off it when needed.
Why?  The Pompey game was a one-off in terms of who was on the bench for us.

Offline El Campeador

  • Capital of Culture's Campaign Manager...Transfer Board Veteran 5 Stars.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 20,721
  • The shupporters create chances, for sure, djes
Re: Money Money Money, Mostly
« Reply #84 on: February 23, 2009, 12:22:43 am »
Why?  The Pompey game was a one-off in terms of who was on the bench for us.

Exactly. And must-win games where Gerrard and Alonso both don't line up are an aberration also.

Offline Timbo's Goals

  • Petrified of THE BEAST
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,445
  • JFT96
    • Timbos Liverpool
Re: Money Money Money, Mostly
« Reply #85 on: February 23, 2009, 12:24:30 am »
Right, but you said in your original post that United brought good players off the bench, and we brought dross off the bench. If you go back to the Pompey game, it sort of negates your example of United rotating their starters to the bench, and bringing them off it when needed.

Over 38 league games, our starters in the middle of the park are usually Mascherano, Alonso, and Gerrard (a bit further up). Once in a while, we get struck by lightning and two of the three are unavailable. Still, even then, we're not too shabby. Aurelio played a good game in the middle of the park, and Lucas will improve as time goes on. It's a far cry from when Zenden was starting games in the middle of the park.

Not at all - my only point there was that you can find good players for less than their worth. Surely Lennon isn't the reason Spurs suck mad donkey dick. Paying almost 20 million for Bent may be.

Right - again, my point was that money isn't the be all and end all of assembling a title-winning team.

Is there a bottomless pit of money that exists somewhere that Rafa just isn't allowed to use? We may look back years from now and curse the day we over-leveraged ourselves financially to catch United. It's a slippery slope, this spending recklessly business. We let the two foxes into the chicken coop in an effort to "fund" our success, and ended up being indebted to the banks at a time when the credit markets collapsed.

If it takes longer to catch them without bankrupting ourselves, so be it.

In a roundabout way we completely agree. Sorry - but it seems we were debating for the same aim.

We should present our findings to the Rafa doubters  ;)

Offline b_joseph

  • b_jesus, b_mary, b_joseph and the wee b_donkey. Unloyal gloryhunter who was probably Kelly Osbourne in another life.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 23,603
Re: Money Money Money, Mostly
« Reply #86 on: February 23, 2009, 12:26:15 am »
It's ironic you've picked those three players because it pisses on your point - Simao and Alves we wouldn't pay what was asked presumably because we couldn't, Ronaldo we were out bid
CRonaldo was available before his price went up...what was it. 4 mill?

Simao and Alves could have been had but we delayed both for far too long. Vidic also is another one that we fucked around with.

Offline Mother.F

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,436
Re: Money Money Money, Mostly
« Reply #87 on: February 23, 2009, 12:27:05 am »
Without money we can only buy 'journeymen' like Barney said on that post just after Istanbul. For Jermaine Pennant, read Jimmy Carter or Istvan Kozma. We can't get players like Ribery, Quaresma, whoever the best wide players are (not Quaresma) without money and there are 2 other clubs holding an advantage over us there. I only dream of players like Ribery and Aguero playing for us, sadly it won't happen.

Uh, what?

I thought Barney pretty much said the exact opposite.

It was a lovely post by Mr. Rubble as well:

.............   We did break the transfer record on several occasions, but that was really not what Liverpool was about. We were never a "glamour" club. Nah, leave that to those cockney pretenders, with their journeymen, flash gits, fashion victims and pretty boys. The constant theme with the players that we bought was that they were winners!. They may not have been the greatest players in the world, although to us they were, but they were our players. You'd hear it said that players would run through brick walls for Shanks, but they would do that without thinking twice about it, or having to be asked. And from kick-off to final whistle you generally got 100% effort, passion and commitment from the team. The coaches expected it, and the fans expected nothing less, but you could tell that the players expected it of themselves. Ah yes, the team was the thing at Liverpool. We did have our superstars though, we had the biggest superstar in Kevin Keegan, but without wishing to take anything away from KK at all, he really was a fantastic player who always gave 100%, but like lead singers in bands, he was getting the plaudits for providing the final touches to the efforts of all the players; the Tommy Smith's, the Cally's and the Hughes's. Kevin though, as with almost all Liverpool players, always acknowledged that the team was the thing. And anyway, it was Liverpool which made KK the superstar, having signed him from glamorous Scunthorpe as a promising youngster. I think the Liverpool staff could see through the big-time Charlie's who were around in those days, and Bob Paisley himself said of George Best that if Matt Busby couldn't handle him then no-one could. And why should they have to "handle" him? There were loads of that type of player around, media legends, always in the headlines, but as often as for football, it was for off-the-field stuff, involving birds, booze and betting. Nah, Liverpool don't want players like that thankyou very much. If we had been Chelsea back then, we would perhaps have bought Charlie George from Arsenal and not the vastly superior Ray Kennedy, or maybe Malcolm McDonald from Newcastle instead of the tireless Terry McDermott. Doesn't bear thinking about really. We bought players who, naturally, had ability, but also an obvious love for the game, and the passion and commitment which Liverpool expected, and a will to win. How many England caps did Tommy Smith win? You can count on the fingers of one hand, but Tommy, when asked if he regretted that, replied "How many medals have those England players got in their trophy cabinets?". Exactly...........



Offline Timbo's Goals

  • Petrified of THE BEAST
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,445
  • JFT96
    • Timbos Liverpool
Re: Money Money Money, Mostly
« Reply #88 on: February 23, 2009, 12:33:38 am »
Uh, what?

I thought Barney pretty much said the exact opposite.

It was a lovely post by Mr. Rubble as well:

Aye, nail on head - the first response to this opening thread - but I got a bit lost with some responses. Well worth a read...

http://www.redandwhitekop.com/forum/index.php?topic=69135.0

Offline Dam Sodd

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,719
  • Believer
Re: Money Money Money, Mostly
« Reply #89 on: February 23, 2009, 12:36:07 am »
I have to ask it... anyone can explain me that "charlie uniform november tango" thing?

absolutely phonetic

anyway about the dough course you need it, but you also have to use it wisely which makes the Robbie Keane purchase & sale possibly one of the biggest cock ups in the clubs history regardless of who's to blame.

Cool down and play

Offline Timbo's Goals

  • Petrified of THE BEAST
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,445
  • JFT96
    • Timbos Liverpool
Re: Money Money Money, Mostly
« Reply #90 on: February 23, 2009, 12:42:58 am »
absolutely phonetic

anyway about the dough course you need it, but you also have to use it wisely which makes the Robbie Keane purchase & sale possibly one of the biggest cock ups in the clubs history regardless of who's to blame.

massive cock up maybe, but why does it get highlighted more than Veron or Shevchenko ?

Offline Guz-kop

  • Baz cop
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,471
Re: Money Money Money, Mostly
« Reply #91 on: February 23, 2009, 12:45:03 am »
absolutely phonetic

anyway about the dough course you need it, but you also have to use it wisely which makes the Robbie Keane purchase & sale possibly one of the biggest cock ups in the clubs history regardless of who's to blame.



If Rafa never wins the league with us I think people will point to last summer as the defining turning point. £35m spent was it and what improvement have we got in the side? Albert Rieira. Clearly Rafa didn't think Keane brought anything to the tema. Not trying to rip it out of Albert because he's done alright but as far as the summer transfer window goes it was a total flop. And personally, since the signings of Crouch/Sissoko/Reina in 2005 brought us within a point of the mancs and 9 of the champions (Chelsea), I don't think Rafa has particularly covered himself in glory in terms of attacking signings with the obvious exception of Fernando who is truly world class and was a superb signing. 1 true success in 3 years isn't a great record though and I have serious doubts about whether a) Rafa will even be here to have another crack at the transfer market or b) Our owners will continue to trust him with that sort of money and we will be left without a pot to piss in over the summer.

That said though - Rafa is a very young manager. Wenger and Ferguson have years and years of experience in the transfer market over him and Mourinho has been able to make signings without the dangers of expensive mistakes looming over his head. Rafa hasn't had anywhere near the money or control over transfers at anytime in his managerial career as he has at Liverpool. Looking to get promotion in Spain's 2nd division and then having players bought  for you to improve an already excellent squad is nothing like the job he has on his hands here and I think he is right in the thick of a very steep learning curve.
It's wonderful, it's marvellous, it's 3-3

Offline liverpoolfan1970

  • Anny Roader
  • ****
  • Posts: 263
  • Anarcho-Capitalist
Re: Money Money Money
« Reply #92 on: February 23, 2009, 12:54:46 am »
Rafa has spent more money than Ferguson since he arrived. IMO he has spent poorly, and if Parry had not blocked his selling of Alonso and signing of Barry think how much shit we would be in

Summer of 2007 ManUre spent in the neighborhood of $100million, if not more.  Rafa may have "spent" more, but he had to sell to do it.  Ferguson doesn't have to sell.  Plus Rafa has had to overhaul not just the first XI, but the squad plus re-stock the academy.  If you are honest you will take that into account.  Rafa isn't just building for today, aka Chelsea.  He has and is building for long term success. 

Praising Coco the clown?  Please.  If you were honest, then you'd admit Rafa should have been allowed to purchase Barry AND keep Alonso, which is what he would probably have preferred.  If Rafa were given the type of budget ManUre and Chelsea have, then he would have brought in Barry and perhaps David Villa without being forced to sell players. 
YNWA

Offline Timbo's Goals

  • Petrified of THE BEAST
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,445
  • JFT96
    • Timbos Liverpool
Re: Money Money Money, Mostly
« Reply #93 on: February 23, 2009, 12:55:46 am »
If Rafa never wins the league with us I think people will point to last summer as the defining turning point. £35m spent was it and what improvement have we got in the side? Albert Rieira. Clearly Rafa didn't think Keane brought anything to the tema. Not trying to rip it out of Albert because he's done alright but as far as the summer transfer window goes it was a total flop. And personally, since the signings of Crouch/Sissoko/Reina in 2005 brought us within a point of the mancs and 9 of the champions (Chelsea), I don't think Rafa has particularly covered himself in glory in terms of attacking signings with the obvious exception of Fernando who is truly world class and was a superb signing. 1 true success in 3 years isn't a great record though and I have serious doubts about whether a) Rafa will even be here to have another crack at the transfer market or b) Our owners will continue to trust him with that sort of money and we will be left without a pot to piss in over the summer.

That said though - Rafa is a very young manager. Wenger and Ferguson have years and years of experience in the transfer market over him and Mourinho has been able to make signings without the dangers of expensive mistakes looming over his head. Rafa hasn't had anywhere near the money or control over transfers at anytime in his managerial career as he has at Liverpool. Looking to get promotion in Spain's 2nd division and then having players bought  for you to improve an already excellent squad is nothing like the job he has on his hands here and I think he is right in the thick of a very steep learning curve.

Get off the fence  ;D

Sack him or back him?

Offline Guz-kop

  • Baz cop
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,471
Re: Money Money Money, Mostly
« Reply #94 on: February 23, 2009, 01:01:44 am »
Get off the fence  ;D

Sack him or back him?

What has that got to do with this thread though?

It's not even March yet, we play those bastards in 3 weeks and could be only 4 points behind them and putting them under pressure for the last 10 games. We might end the season as European Champions. Still a lot of fucking football to play and a lot to play for. Thoughts of sacking him now are ridiculous and there's still so much more to optimistic about then depressed. If everyone isn't backing him at this CURRENT moment in time then I don't know what's wrong with people but I'll be honest this summer might be the first under Rafa where we have to take a long hard look at what've done in the last 2-3 years (because the first two, maybe even first 3 were SUPERB) and where we're going. I don't think that's fickle because there's still 3 months of the season to go.

If that makes me on the fence, fuck it, it's better up here.
It's wonderful, it's marvellous, it's 3-3

Offline Timbo's Goals

  • Petrified of THE BEAST
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,445
  • JFT96
    • Timbos Liverpool
Re: Money Money Money, Mostly
« Reply #95 on: February 23, 2009, 01:13:11 am »
What has that got to do with this thread though?

It's not even March yet, we play those bastards in 3 weeks and could be only 4 points behind them and putting them under pressure for the last 10 games. We might end the season as European Champions. Still a lot of fucking football to play and a lot to play for. Thoughts of sacking him now are ridiculous and there's still so much more to optimistic about then depressed. If everyone isn't backing him at this CURRENT moment in time then I don't know what's wrong with people but I'll be honest this summer might be the first under Rafa where we have to take a long hard look at what've done in the last 2-3 years (because the first two, maybe even first 3 were SUPERB) and where we're going. I don't think that's fickle because there's still 3 months of the season to go.

If that makes me on the fence, fuck it, it's better up here.

In my eyes, just my opinion - that makes you fickle.

If you can't make your mind up about Rafa - and where we've been under his management in four and a half years - then you might as well just sack him now.

Offline Shabby

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,214
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Money Money Money
« Reply #96 on: February 23, 2009, 01:16:40 am »
Rafa has spent more money than Ferguson since he arrived. IMO he has spent poorly, and if Parry had not blocked his selling of Alonso and signing of Barry think how much shit we would be in

If you have the best team in the country having spent a lot of money to assemble it then you only have make changes here and there, which is what Fergie's done and expensive tweaks at that in the time Benitez has been here.
£15m? It seems low, but what people have to remember is that the fee is irrelevant.

Offline Timbo's Goals

  • Petrified of THE BEAST
  • RAWK Scribe
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 9,445
  • JFT96
    • Timbos Liverpool
Re: Money Money Money
« Reply #97 on: February 23, 2009, 01:22:24 am »
If you have the best team in the country having spent a lot of money to assemble it then you only have make changes here and there, which is what Fergie's done and expensive tweaks at that in the time Benítez has been here.

i.e. had he signed Keane like we did and it didn't work out - no-one would bat an eyelid.

Berbatov was hardly pulling up trees but it went un-noticed because of their other options, which we don't have.

Offline Guz-kop

  • Baz cop
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 14,471
Re: Money Money Money, Mostly
« Reply #98 on: February 23, 2009, 01:28:32 am »
In my eyes, just my opinion - that makes you fickle.

If you can't make your mind up about Rafa - and where we've been under his management in four and a half years - then you might as well just sack him now.

Why does everything have to be so black and white? Sack him or back him? Good or bad. It doesn't make sense to me. I think we had a fantastic first 3 years, generally. In terms of the league I think we have stagnated since 2006 and not made the progress we should have done and IMO that is down to 3 mediocre transfer windows and while I accept everything about the Mancs' finances don't think that is the sole reason for it and believe we have made some serious errors which is what I was trying to highlight in my original reply.

Where this season will take us I have absolutely no fucking clue and I'm not advocating making a list of targets for the team to achieve and then sacking/backing the manager in June based on that. All I'm trying to convey is that doubts are creeping in and if this season goes majorly tits up (again - what that constitutes I do not know) then serious questions will be asked although ultimately the fan discussion I think will be largely irrelevent because I have a gut feeling (based on absolutely nothing concrete at all) that either these contract discussions will end horribly or we'll get some new owners.

If I had to give a definitive answer (though what that has to do with this thread I don't know and why you asked me specifically, also I do not know) then I'd say it would take a mighty big fuck up from here until May for me to be thinking we have to get rid of the manager but that doesn't mean I don't have some major lingering doubts.

It's wonderful, it's marvellous, it's 3-3

Offline Red_in_Holland

  • arl arse
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,435
  • Attack is the best defense.. btw we have both
Re: Money Money Money, Mostly
« Reply #99 on: February 23, 2009, 01:49:49 am »
I think personally that with hindsight.. its easy to call the odds against Rafa.   Take a swipe at bad calls in transfers etc.

But its not true or fair, is it.

Morientes.. exceptionally talented skillful player with a knack for finding the back of the net, good with feet or head.   I fkin rejoiced when we signed him, seriously.   He didn't cut it in the premier league.  Now was that Rafa's fault, he stuck by the guy through thick and thin, because he knew how good he was.

Rafa was blatant in his wanting Simao and Alves.. one was on the plane here and it was called off.  Alves could of been ours for 12 mill, we passed on him.. one year later he is worth 25 mill.. guess Rafa was right to want him then ?  These are pretty much what Parry should get the blame for.. imho, not just these, but by god with those two it would be a different story here.

Rafa wanted Berbatov.. he went to Spurs for 8 mill. **sigh**

Keane.. ala Morientes, proven record of scoring and being an ESSENTIAL and VITAL player for Spurs.. proves anything but for us.  The pressure, demands, necessity of being consistently good for us unmanned him and made him worthless to us with a get rid quick clause being satisfied by Spurs relieving us of his wage bill and presence.  Shame.. I knew a lot had high hopes for Robbie to make good here.

I will remind you of Mark Gonzalez.. lightning on the left wing, good record and massive potential.  Couldn't live up to it at LFC though.. Rafa's fault ??   Hardly, yet again let down by buying potential that fails to deliver. 

It is a money thing, mostly.  But like all money things, its a lot about gambling too.   We can't afford the failures to deliver, whereas some financially healthier on paper clubs can.

With what Benitez has had at his disposal, he has performed correctly and has been let down on some highly important 'coups' he could have made.

Benitez is a prodigy.. he is incredibly respected and remarkably called genius by many of his peers.  He knows exactly the capability of his squad and what he can and can not do.   Give him a team of the highest level and he will provide the best open football and technical display of brilliance and excellence that any Coach previously known to us could present on a football pitch.

If you don't he will do what he has to, to provide the best results he feels we can expect on the day.   Without the class to implement his strategy, he will always play to not lose and probably to win.  Give him that class, he will play to ruthlessly, methodically and beautifully win.

Say what you will on this forum.  He is possibly the most brilliant football manager on the planet right now.  To think that some of you want him fckd off.. amazing really.

Give this man the tools and he will win constantly, everything going.. and as the 1337speak folks say.. that is FACT.
Los Rojos Conquistadores
"It's good to have a challenge in training. If you play against one of the best strikers in the Premier League almost everyday, that can only help you when the game comes around each weekend."
 
Asked if he had worked out how to stop Torres, Hyypia added: "I'm working on it, I'm working on it.

Offline Barnes & Beardsley

  • Anny Roader
  • ****
  • Posts: 303
Re: Money Money Money, Mostly
« Reply #100 on: February 23, 2009, 01:51:22 am »
Nonsense. Too many excuses as usual. Rafa balls’d up the 2006/7 and 2008/9 transfers. This massive overhaul excuse is wearing extremely thin as well. Rafa inherited 8 or 9 players who won the treble in 01, finished 2nd in 02 and won the League Cup in 03. This same squad went on to win the European Cup in 05 with the help of Luis and Xabi. Are you telling me that they were not good enough to be squad players? Was there a need for a massive overhaul? Why couldn’t we have opted for a smooth transition? Rafa bought Momo, Pepe and Crouch and we finished 1 point behind the Mancs and won the FA cup in 05/06, so what went wrong after that? The Mancs then signed Carrick for £14m and won the league in 06/07. This lack of funds argument for missing out on a few players doesn’t wash with me; we had money but decided to spend it elsewhere.

Offline LRRP

  • Main Stander
  • ***
  • Posts: 245
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Money Money Money
« Reply #101 on: February 23, 2009, 02:07:49 am »
I have to ask it... anyone can explain me that "charlie uniform november tango" thing?

It can be army signals protocol. C U N T.

Offline El Campeador

  • Capital of Culture's Campaign Manager...Transfer Board Veteran 5 Stars.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 20,721
  • The shupporters create chances, for sure, djes
Re: Money Money Money, Mostly
« Reply #102 on: February 23, 2009, 02:18:31 am »
massive cock up maybe, but why does it get highlighted more than Veron or Shevchenko ?

Well, probably because it's fresh news. Ask United fans how much grief they got for Veron at the time - I dished out generous helpings too. Sheva was bad at the time too, what a bust he was at Chelsea, and in fact, I don't think he ever recovered his magical form after that night in Istanbul.

What bothers me most about the Keane business was the fact that while the banks are knocking on the fucking door, we went mucking about with buying an expensive player, then deciding within weeks that it was the wrong move. Don't get me wrong - I am a huge fan of cutting losses, and so I wasn't too disappointed with the sale itself, but I was mad as hell about the tying up of funds for a season. Keane was our big money signing of the season. It was a fiasco, not in terms of money lost, but in terms of reinforcements lost, and time lost.

Offline mooks

  • struggles with difficult concepts - must try harder 5/10
  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 660
  • We all live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Money Money Money, Mostly
« Reply #103 on: February 23, 2009, 02:29:59 am »
Well, probably because it's fresh news. Ask United fans how much grief they got for Veron at the time - I dished out generous helpings too. Sheva was bad at the time too, what a bust he was at Chelsea, and in fact, I don't think he ever recovered his magical form after that night in Istanbul.

What bothers me most about the Keane business was the fact that while the banks are knocking on the fucking door, we went mucking about with buying an expensive player, then deciding within weeks that it was the wrong move. Don't get me wrong - I am a huge fan of cutting losses, and so I wasn't too disappointed with the sale itself, but I was mad as hell about the tying up of funds for a season. Keane was our big money signing of the season. It was a fiasco, not in terms of money lost, but in terms of reinforcements lost, and time lost.
Yes?  And who do you blame for that?

Offline 3rdStone

  • Main Stander
  • ***
  • Posts: 239
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Money Money Money, Mostly
« Reply #104 on: February 23, 2009, 02:32:58 am »
I don't think Manu have better strength in depth at all.

They've got a better first eleven is all.

And they're diabolical when both Rooney and Ronaldo are missing. Shite in fact.

They're better fair enough but I can't agree it's because they're filled with 23 class players.

Offline El Campeador

  • Capital of Culture's Campaign Manager...Transfer Board Veteran 5 Stars.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 20,721
  • The shupporters create chances, for sure, djes
Re: Money Money Money, Mostly
« Reply #105 on: February 23, 2009, 02:53:14 am »
Yes?  And who do you blame for that?

For what - the Keane fiasco? Noone. I'm not tossing blame around. Airing dirty laundry in public without knowing all the facts isn't my forte. Clearly, it was a mistake. It's all our faults, and it's none of ours.

It's hard for me to imagine Rafa bringing someone in under false pretenses for that much money. It's hard for me to imagine Parry letting that much money going out the door without being for it, and it's hard for me to imagine the owners weren't convinced (as we all were) that Keane was a proven Premier League player who would be living his boyhood dream banging in goals next to Torres.

So whatever happened had to have happened after the transfer itself. It probably had something to do with all those donuts in front of goal Keane was baking. Whatever it was, it was a fiasco, because we could have had a better player suiting up game after game.

It's just frustrating that we tied up that much money for a season, when we're all talking about not having much of it to spend on other players, reinforcements if you like.

Offline El Campeador

  • Capital of Culture's Campaign Manager...Transfer Board Veteran 5 Stars.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 20,721
  • The shupporters create chances, for sure, djes
Re: Money Money Money, Mostly
« Reply #106 on: February 23, 2009, 02:54:40 am »
I don't think Manu have better strength in depth at all.

They've got a better first eleven is all.

And they're diabolical when both Rooney and Ronaldo are missing. Shite in fact.

They're better fair enough but I can't agree it's because they're filled with 23 class players.

Oh come on now, wouldn't you be clapping for the 18 million quid rated Anderson :lmao

Offline 3rdStone

  • Main Stander
  • ***
  • Posts: 239
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Money Money Money, Mostly
« Reply #107 on: February 23, 2009, 02:58:10 am »
Oh come on now, wouldn't you be clapping for the 18 million quid rated Anderson :lmao


I'd be too scared to have my hands anywhere other than blocking my face when he shoots.  ;)

Offline fowlermagic

  • Ilittarate
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,491
Re: Money Money Money, Mostly
« Reply #108 on: February 23, 2009, 03:05:06 am »
Money is the reason why we could not get a result this year against sides like Wigan, Stoke x twice, Hull, West Ham, Fulham, Spurs. ??? Every team will have their come uppences but we have had too many this season against teams who have spent a lot less than us so this excuse holds very little water for me.


I have a simple philosophy: Fill what's empty. Empty what's full. Scratch where it itches. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Zi5-V75v-6I

Offline Dante79

  • Main Stander
  • ***
  • Posts: 141
  • Nunca Caminaras Solo
Re: Money Money Money, Mostly
« Reply #109 on: February 23, 2009, 03:09:00 am »
If we don't win this season it will have nothing to do with money IMHO , it will because we failed to beat the likes of Stoke , Fulham and such shit at home .

I second that!
"Some people believe football is a matter of life and death, I am very disappointed with that attitude. I can assure you it is much, much more important than that."  Bill Shankly

Offline 3rdStone

  • Main Stander
  • ***
  • Posts: 239
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Money Money Money, Mostly
« Reply #110 on: February 23, 2009, 03:15:32 am »
I don't think it's an excuse. Fergie couldn't beat his own team to the title given our resources vs what he's had.

We're fighting a squad that was assembled with at least 80 million more quid.

Ged bent us over when he left us with a squad that had 10-15 players worth almost nothing. We've spent similar amounts to those above us over the last few years but the damage was done already.

Offline Danny_

  • Amnesiac_
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,999
Re: Money Money Money, Mostly
« Reply #111 on: February 23, 2009, 03:38:54 am »
Anybody got the figures on what we've spend NET vs the scum so we can have a proper debate.  As far as I can tell, we spent next to nothing last summer if you take into account that we recouped most of the Robbie Keane fee and that we sold Sissoko.

Offline El Campeador

  • Capital of Culture's Campaign Manager...Transfer Board Veteran 5 Stars.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 20,721
  • The shupporters create chances, for sure, djes
Re: Money Money Money, Mostly
« Reply #112 on: February 23, 2009, 03:51:18 am »
Ged bent us over when he left us with a squad that had 10-15 players worth almost nothing. We've spent similar amounts to those above us over the last few years but the damage was done already.

See that's a great point. While there was some quality in Houllier's squad, many players had residual values less than what we paid for them. One thing I don't think Rafa gets enough credit for is maximizing the value of the players he sells. We've not had massive fuckups until it came to Keane - if he pays little, he recoups little, if he pays a bit more, like Momo or Bellamy, he occasionally makes money on the deal.

Even Keane had the potential to be a massive blunder - had he limped into next season and made the January window, we'd be looking at a much bigger loss than the 3-6 million being reported. Even there, I've my doubts that the press reports are to be believed. Rafa is a tough nosed sonofabitch - you gotta have balls as big as church bells to bite the bullet and sell a 20 million pound purchase halfway into his first season - and the fact that the transfer happened on the last day of the window speaks volumes. If he didn't get what he wanted, I doubt looking at some of his transfer dealings that he'd have let Harry and Levy bend us over for a loss of 8 million as is being bandied about in the press.

Offline mooks

  • struggles with difficult concepts - must try harder 5/10
  • Kopite
  • *****
  • Posts: 660
  • We all live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Money Money Money, Mostly
« Reply #113 on: February 23, 2009, 03:55:09 am »
Money is the reason why we could not get a result this year against sides like Wigan, Stoke x twice, Hull, West Ham, Fulham, Spurs. ??? Every team will have their come uppences but we have had too many this season against teams who have spent a lot less than us so this excuse holds very little water for me.

No, money is the reason we don't beat teams like that as regularly as the bigger spending teams do

We have only two matchwinners in our squad - if either is injured or out of form then we will draw a fair number of games against inferior opposition who 'park the bus'.  Just as Arsenal are this season without Fabregas and Walcott. 

It's very simple, really.

Offline Red Heaven

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,510
  • check it
Re: Money Money Money, Mostly
« Reply #114 on: February 23, 2009, 04:45:01 am »
Anybody got the figures on what we've spend NET vs the scum so we can have a proper debate.  As far as I can tell, we spent next to nothing last summer if you take into account that we recouped most of the Robbie Keane fee and that we sold Sissoko.

Going through all Rafas wheelings and dealings at his time in charge would be a very long list indded theres no denying that but many factors must be considered when you look at such list like Rafa was new to a country thats style of football was foreign to him and therefore had to test the waters with players that may or maynot have worked out unlike one SAF that has been in the English game for two decades and knows it inside out, also consider he was tasked to sort out Houlliers shit party that he left us with.

Take a quick look at the two CURRENT teams that are competeing for the Premier league and tell me if you can notice anything ???

Liverpool
1. Cavalieri 3m
2. Dossena 7m
4. Hyypia 2.6m
5. Agger 5.8m
8. Gerrard -
9. Torres 20m
11. Riera 8m
12. Aurelio 3m
14. Alonso 10.5m
15. Benayoun 5m
17. Arbeloa 3m
18. Kuyt 10m
19. Babel 11.5m
20. Mascherano 18.6m
21. Leiva 6m
22. Insua 2m (price Palleta cost)
23. Carragher -
24. N'Gog 1.5m
25. Reina 5m
27. Degen -
28. Plessis 1m
30. Itandje 2.5m
31. El Zhar 2m
37. Skrtel 6.5m

TOATL: 134.5m

Manchester United
1. Van Der Saar 2m
2. Neville -
3. Evra 5.5m
4. Hargreaves 17m
5. Ferdinand 30m
6. Brown -
7. Ronaldo 12.5m
8. Anderson 18m
9. Berbatov 30.7m
10. Rooney 30m
11. Giggs -
12. Foster 1m
13. Park 5m
14. Tosic 12m
15. Vidic 7m
16 Carrick 18.6m
17. Nani 16m
18. Scholes -
19. wellbeck -
20. Fabio 2.5m
21. Rafael 2.5m
22. O'Shea -
23. Evans -
24. Fletcher -
28. Gibson -
29. Kuszczak 2.5m
32. Tevez 32m
34. Possebon 2m

TOTAL 246.8

Dont only take the massive 112.3 million pounds worth of difference away from this list there are many more points that can be made

Yes Liverpool may have 4 less players on these lists compared to the mancs but take a look at players that cost nothing as they came through youth and it makes this list even more astonishing that anyone can try and argue money has no bearing on a title race. Gerrard, Carragher came from our academy and Degen came on a bosman where as Man U have Neville, Brown, Giggs, Scholes, Wellbeck, O'Shea, Evans, Fletcher and Gibson all coming from next to no money through the youth setup.

Man U have 4 players on their team that cost 10m more than our most expesnsive player not to mention 3 others that are in the same price bracket as Torres

Stop lying to yourself that our beloved game has not already turned into a cash fest with the deepest pockets earning the biggest prizes, facts prove that we are already well beyond that
Simply Stunning, Simply Stevie G
All your southerners are twat headed c*nts, the dregs of English humanity, who eat their own faeces.
Top post by Red Heaven.

Offline Red Heaven

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,510
  • check it
Re: Money Money Money, Mostly
« Reply #115 on: February 23, 2009, 05:00:43 am »
If you really wanna throw the money we lost on Keane in with that list your still looking at a 110m gap, pretty large by anyones standards
Simply Stunning, Simply Stevie G
All your southerners are twat headed c*nts, the dregs of English humanity, who eat their own faeces.
Top post by Red Heaven.

Offline Danny_

  • Amnesiac_
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,999
Re: Money Money Money, Mostly
« Reply #116 on: February 23, 2009, 05:10:54 am »
Going through all Rafas wheelings and dealings at his time in charge would be a very long list indded theres no denying that but many factors must be considered when you look at such list like Rafa was new to a country thats style of football was foreign to him and therefore had to test the waters with players that may or maynot have worked out unlike one SAF that has been in the English game for two decades and knows it inside out, also consider he was tasked to sort out Houlliers shit party that he left us with.

Take a quick look at the two CURRENT teams that are competeing for the Premier league and tell me if you can notice anything ???

Liverpool
1. Cavalieri 3m
2. Dossena 7m
4. Hyypia 2.6m
5. Agger 5.8m
8. Gerrard -
9. Torres 20m
11. Riera 8m
12. Aurelio 3m
14. Alonso 10.5m
15. Benayoun 5m
17. Arbeloa 3m
18. Kuyt 10m
19. Babel 11.5m
20. Mascherano 18.6m
21. Leiva 6m
22. Insua 2m (price Palleta cost)
23. Carragher -
24. N'Gog 1.5m
25. Reina 5m
27. Degen -
28. Plessis 1m
30. Itandje 2.5m
31. El Zhar 2m
37. Skrtel 6.5m

TOATL: 134.5m

Manchester United
1. Van Der Saar 2m
2. Neville -
3. Evra 5.5m
4. Hargreaves 17m
5. Ferdinand 30m
6. Brown -
7. Ronaldo 12.5m
8. Anderson 18m
9. Berbatov 30.7m
10. Rooney 30m
11. Giggs -
12. Foster 1m
13. Park 5m
14. Tosic 12m
15. Vidic 7m
16 Carrick 18.6m
17. Nani 16m
18. Scholes -
19. wellbeck -
20. Fabio 2.5m
21. Rafael 2.5m
22. O'Shea -
23. Evans -
24. Fletcher -
28. Gibson -
29. Kuszczak 2.5m
32. Tevez 32m
34. Possebon 2m

TOTAL 246.8

Dont only take the massive 112.3 million pounds worth of difference away from this list there are many more points that can be made

Yes Liverpool may have 4 less players on these lists compared to the mancs but take a look at players that cost nothing as they came through youth and it makes this list even more astonishing that anyone can try and argue money has no bearing on a title race. Gerrard, Carragher came from our academy and Degen came on a bosman where as Man U have Neville, Brown, Giggs, Scholes, Wellbeck, O'Shea, Evans, Fletcher and Gibson all coming from next to no money through the youth setup.

Man U have 4 players on their team that cost 10m more than our most expesnsive player not to mention 3 others that are in the same price bracket as Torres

Stop lying to yourself that our beloved game has not already turned into a cash fest with the deepest pockets earning the biggest prizes, facts prove that we are already well beyond that

Great post RedHeaven and I think that those who want Rafa out should justify it by explaining to us who could do better than him with this kind of handicap.  The whole point of the Yanks coming in was to change this but we all know how that worked out.   If anything, I think we may even be spending less in the summer on transfers!

Online zero zero

  • Karma's a bitch. Innit.
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,475
Re: Money Money Money, Mostly
« Reply #117 on: February 23, 2009, 05:23:30 am »
Stop lying to yourself that our beloved game has not already turned into a cash fest with the deepest pockets earning the biggest prizes, facts prove that we are already well beyond that
Thanks for the figures there, though I wouldn't come to the same conclusion.

We're up against two (now three) of some the richest clubs in football. That doesn't seem likely to change. And we don't seem likely to be joining them. In which case we need a manager who has a proven plan to win the league, that doesn't rely on outspending his rivals.

We need a man who can persuade some of the world's best players to join us, even on reduced wages, to be part of a project that will eventually win titles and trophies. If we find such a man, we'll have to be patient because our rivals won't stop improving themselves.

We've already found the ideal manager for our club.

Offline Brissie Red

  • Anny Roader
  • ****
  • Posts: 490
  • We all Live in a Red and White Kop
Re: Money Money Money, Mostly
« Reply #118 on: February 23, 2009, 05:30:49 am »
Top post by Red Heaven. Anyone who argues that money isn't crucial to the PL are kidding themselves big time. Do you really think that if Abramovic hadn't bought Chelsea, they would have achieved anywhere near what they have. And suprise, suprise. Abramovic started getting bored, didn't like Scolari and stopped giving him money and look what's happened. I'm not syaing money is the be all end all, but one thing is for certain as Red Heaven's post shows. We are punching above our weight.

Few have said that if we have a good enough scouting team, money isn't that important, pointing to the examples of Skrtel and Agger. Well I think we all know in this day and age, players are getting labelled the 'next Zidane' or 'next Maradona' far too easily and pretty much every top team in europe is lurking around for these top talents. Players like Agger, Skrtel are pretty rare commoditties. The thing is if rafa did sign one of these fairly unknown commodiites and they did not perform, I can only imagine the abuse he'd get from left right and centre.

If you look at the players with 'potential' of both sides that were bought and not bred from their youth system, I think we'd go with Babel, Lucas, Ngog, Zl Zhar, Insua. Man Utd have Anderson, Nani, Tosic and the Silva brothers. We can already see the difference of money they have in 'potential' players as opposed to us, and if you keep on spending 10m+ for these players, one of them will eventually turn out to be really good and that happened to be Ronaldo. As yet the list  that I put up above haven't shown anywahere near their potential bar maybe Insua and Rafael. who are still new on the scene.

I think at the end of the day, one thing is for certain. If we lose Gerrard, Torres, Alonso we will struggle fact. If United lose Rooney, they replace him with Tevez, Berbatov, Ronaldo the list goes on. Rafa had to spend in 'squad' players when he came because he had such a weak foundation, he had to build it up whereas Whiskey Nose already had a strong foundation and could have the luxury of adding a few very expensive players. I think if Rafa were given a few years extra, we could catch up to this point and that is what we should be striving for. Not adding 6 'squad' players and the occcasional star on the team in the summer, but to spend the possible 30m on 1 star and possibly 2 or 3 rising stars for lower costs instead of spreading the budget around. For this to happen, Rafa had to first build a team where everybody is atleast half decent (not Biscan, Zenden, Diao, Traore) and so on.
« Last Edit: February 23, 2009, 05:33:03 am by Brissie Red »

Offline Red Heaven

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,510
  • check it
Re: Money Money Money, Mostly
« Reply #119 on: February 23, 2009, 05:39:44 am »
In which case we need a manager who has a proven plan to win the league, that doesn't rely on outspending his rivals.

We need a man who can persuade some of the world's best players to join us, even on reduced wages, to be part of a project that will eventually win titles and trophies. If we find such a man, we'll have to be patient because our rivals won't stop improving themselves.

Im pretty sure Torres joined us on fairly reduced wages while also rejecting the advances of other clubs willing to pay significantly more for his services. I dont know what Rafa's long term plan for Liverpool is but judging by the way he wants control over transfers and also wants to run the youth side of things you can only guess that he wants to be here for the long haul.

Players that he has bought into our youth side are very bright prospects to say the least and im sure if he manages to stay on past his current contract we will see exactly what he has in store for us and just how much talent the youth he has brought in will have. If the crop of youngsters we have turn out to be a success then i can see a snowball effect where maybe one or two players might be needed to come in each year to fill voids but the majority should be coming from our academy with players being signed for next to nothing, quite similar to what we are seeing at Barcelona with their extensive youth setup
Simply Stunning, Simply Stevie G
All your southerners are twat headed c*nts, the dregs of English humanity, who eat their own faeces.
Top post by Red Heaven.