Author Topic: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form  (Read 195165 times)

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1720 on: August 26, 2009, 06:03:35 pm »
I think away, which tells you something.

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Offline relahni

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1721 on: August 26, 2009, 06:18:34 pm »
I'm a Lucas fan, but he shouldn't be a first team regular, he'd not ready yet.  Bring him on in games that are well won and gradually introduce him to the team and give him an electric shock every time he makes a mistake!

Offline Met

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1722 on: August 26, 2009, 06:59:17 pm »
had Torres done that, everyone would be going mental...


had lucas not make it to do the marseille roulete, everyone would slate him...

best fans in the world... yeah right...



Spot fucking on!

Not much else to add to the debate, hesbighesred and Marko B (to name a few) pretty much summed it up.
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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1723 on: August 26, 2009, 08:44:23 pm »
I'm a Lucas fan, but he shouldn't be a first team regular, he'd not ready yet.  Bring him on in games that are well won and gradually introduce him to the team and give him an electric shock every time he makes a mistake!

I think he's well beyond the "grooming" stage. He's played far too many games to believe that allowing him on late in games would be in any way beneficial for his development. That's the kind of thing you do with the likes of Spearing who is still getting used to first team football. Lucas is relatively established in terms of the first team squad, dropping him everytime he makes a mistake would be terrible for his development as well as for the squad as a whole.

Offline hassinator

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1724 on: August 26, 2009, 09:22:44 pm »
actually i'm pleasantly surprised to see so many people on here defending lucas - what a change on last season.

i think his body language has improved massively from last year.  he looks stronger and has more purpose to his movement.

the own goal must have been a massive dunt to his confidence but its the sort of thing we've seen carra do more than once and his response was superb.

i think we have to realise our new system will take a while to get used to but also remember we're traditionally slow starters.

lets give the lad a chance to play himself in if for no other reason than right now he's our only real option and needs our support.

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1725 on: August 26, 2009, 10:06:04 pm »
I think he's well beyond the "grooming" stage. He's played far too many games to believe that allowing him on late in games would be in any way beneficial for his development. That's the kind of thing you do with the likes of Spearing who is still getting used to first team football. Lucas is relatively established in terms of the first team squad, dropping him everytime he makes a mistake would be terrible for his development as well as for the squad as a whole.

I would agree with most positions but not central midfield.

For someone Lucas's age to command a position in central midfield at a club wanting the top honours then you need to be very special indeed.

Unfortunately it is a very unforgiving position with it being so important to how the team plays, I personally think there is far too much pressure on him as things stand.

Offline kkhaku

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1726 on: August 26, 2009, 10:14:52 pm »
Ok. First of all I was at the match and I tend to watch Lucas closely. Not because I can come on here and slate him but to see if he is improving at what he really brings to the table.

The Villa match - For me Villa had the tactics stop on. The 1st 15-20mins Liverpool came at them. This was bound to happen. Villa got men behind the ball and said to us come and break us down if you can. We was mega unlucky not to score.

However after 20mins instead of Villa putting 10 men behind the ball they opened up a little and really out won us in the tactics deptment. They had Young and Milner stopping Johnson and Insua to be able to bomb forward and with Lucas they had Sidwell standing off him. Why? cause he is LIMITED. He cant unlock defences often, he can spread play. Lucas is easy to read. He will try to pass the ball square or to Gerrard. As soon as the ball goes to either Gerrard, Torres or Kuyt they were 2 to 3 players round them.

If you watch the FULL game again and not the bits when we clearly were on top you will realise I am right.

Also you will find that when Lucas scored the own goal his head just dropped and it was game over for him. In fact when his number was up. Lucas was already at the bench ready to come off. This shows they is no fight about the lad. Not saying he has to do a Keane and look round for 20mins and go what me.

As someone has already stated Lucas performance tends go with the rest of team. If we're good then he is ok, if we're shit he is shit. So in the 1st 20mins it doesnt shock me he was ok, after that it doesnt shock me he was Mr average. However he plays in CM and he cant afford to go with the win. He has to control and boss a game.

Thought your reply was good but if you think Lucas is going to be a midfield great for us then your highly mistaken in my eyes.

Said all what is need to be said about Lucas for now. Enjoy the thread.

You were at the bloody match???

Don't know whether to laugh or cry. I watched every fucking second of that first half again (I'll go back and watch the 2nd half when I get some time later) and you I would pay you to name me more than than 3 occasions where Lucas picked the wrong pass. He was responsible again and again for us working the ball out of our own half, bypassing the opposition midfield and getting the ball to our top 3 in positions where they had the time and space to either play it back to him or Masch or run forward into a lot of space. On most occasions, They were not tightly marked and harassed into giving the ball away - they actually made wayward passes or took a bad first touch. In the case of Torres he decided to run at players or take on bad angled shots.

What you don't seem to understand is the type of player Lucas is, and I think that's because your continuously comparing him to Xabi which is unfair on the lad. Again, watch that first half of play, just 45 minutes where our 4 attacking players made mistake after mistake, and watch Lucas' contribution. If he's limited and easy to read etc, how is it that he was directly responsible for starting almost every attack? I'm not saying he's the perfect player - adding some flair to his game and hitting the odd 40 yard pass would be nice - but I'm sure Rafa has told him to concentrate on the basics - and he's executing them almost perfectly.

All this nonsense about him being poor when we're poor etc - that first half, he was exceptional while the players in front of him were poor.

I'll also disagree with you about him losing confidence after the OG. Watch again, and you'll see that the VERY next play after the OG he set up an attack, and busted a gut to get into the area - he was alongside Kuyt about 10 yards from goal trying to get on the end of a Johnson cross. A minute later he executed that turn that someone posted above. There was also a crunching tackle that he went into. I can give you many more examples if you'd like. Ever thought he was at the bench because Rafa told him that he may replace him with an attacker if we needed a goal?

I don't know if he's going to be a midfield great - for me our players don't trust him yet, which infuriates me - especially Carra and Stevie. They've both lost a lot of my respect as footballers in my eyes after seeing that game after game - petulance. If Lucas sees the ball enough, he will run a match for you - although not in the way that you seem to go on about. He'll keep the ball moving - and to the right places. He will work the ball up the pitch with great off the ball movement and quick forward passes. He will run forward when there's space in front of him, and he will draw midfielders to him and still manage to play a forward pass.

I'm not sure what you're basing your opinion of him on - but if you have facts to back it up, instances in a match were he plays a predictable pass that gets cut off, or plays it to a player who is too heavily marked to lay it off, or anything of that nature, I'd love to hear them.

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1727 on: August 27, 2009, 12:01:28 am »
Kkaku, I half agree with you in that the reason we struggled after the first 15 was due to Kuyt/Benayoun and Gerrard and their link up play. They got plenty of the ball and just cheaply gave it away. Lucas gave them plenty of balls.

However, I think he did go quiet after the own goal and certainly 2nd half. That said, he is a tick over kind of player not a dynamic one so at 2 down he will look laboured when you are waiting for a Gerrard bit of magic. The gamble in possession, the slicing of a defence or a driving run which is not Lucas'game.

Offline Bob Loblaw

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1728 on: August 27, 2009, 12:42:02 am »
I'd be critical of his second half performance, thought he hid a bit to be honest.

But he's one of the few players in the side that seems to understand the concept of the quick pass. Who cares if it's not forward, it keeps the play moving, keeps the opposition moving. Pass quickly and often enough and you'll open up the space. Wish a few others could grasp this concept.

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1729 on: August 27, 2009, 01:18:43 am »
What you don't seem to understand is the type of player Lucas is, and I think that's because your continuously comparing him to Xabi which is unfair on the lad.
Reading your posts I think it's unfair to compare Xabi to Lucas ;D

I for one appreciate your efforts.  This is a superb analysis, much more objective than you'll find in virtually any newspaper or football magazine.

Offline Beninger

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1730 on: August 27, 2009, 01:52:08 am »
I don't think he was even that quiet in the second half.  Seemed like he played the same game he always does.  10 of his 32 completed passes were in the 20 minutes he played of the second half.  Maybe he went quiet because he was subbed?
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Offline Marko B

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1731 on: August 27, 2009, 02:07:51 am »
But he's one of the few players in the side that seems to understand the concept of the quick pass. Who cares if it's not forward, it keeps the play moving, keeps the opposition moving. Pass quickly and often enough and you'll open up the space. Wish a few others could grasp this concept.


Which is exactly what we need to do. Had we manged this against Spurs (mainly the fault of the back line hoofing and our attackers losing possession) Spurs would have been absolutely spent by the 60 minute mark and we should have been able to run all over them from thereon in. A pressuring game is always destined to fail if you come up against a side who can keep possession (which in the not so distant past we have been excellent at) because it's not a game you can sustain. Villa were a little different in that their pressure was mainly focussed on our attackers (as opposed to Spurs pressure from the backline forward) but once we had player who was holding the ball up for us in our forward line we looked a different side and actually kept possession of the ball which caused us to play good football and keep the pressure on their defence and also starved them of any possession and therefore gave them nothing.

You're spot on about and pass and move being the key, this is something we need to get back into the habit of doing and something that will lead to goals when we take our opportunities which will present themselves rather than force openings when they are simply not there (something that for the earlier part of this year [last season] we did as well as any side I have seen at times). Xabi understood this concept and I can see the same in Lucas except with more forward drive. For some reason though there are other players who are forgetting this concept at the present. Let's hope in games to come they realise this and we start playing once again to the standard which we are capable of.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2009, 02:11:25 am by Marko B »
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Offline Juan Loco

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1732 on: August 27, 2009, 05:45:05 am »
I'd point out that he's only 22 but it'd be lost on some of the critics, and indeed some of the sycophants who have spent the summer insisting he was ready to boss the midfield on a weekly basis for a team that's comfortable sitting at Europe's top table.

I'm not sure where this idea that at 22 he should be ready to run the midfield for a club of Liverpool's stature has come from. It'd be a big ask for him if he'd just stepped off the plane from Real Madrid and was asked to do that, but it's a ridiculous ask of a kid who's been making the general's coffee for the past two seasons to now step into his boots and lead the troops to war.

Maybe this retarded notion that he should be bossing games at 22 has stemmed from the fact that Alonso came straight into the fold at that age and looked at home? And of course, Alonso is the player he is replacing so that's who he should be judged by.

Alonso was a freak. He was a 22 year old playing with the presence and the awareness of someone ten years his senior. That's not every midfielder at 22. That's very few in fact. Where were Michael Ballack and Frank Lampard at 22? Had they even moved to Leverkusen and Chelsea? Where was Andrea Pirlo? Just coming off the back of a spell at Brescia and still playing behind the strikers. Xavi (along with Essien) probably the best midfielder in the world - I don't remember people salivating over him 'til the 2nd half of the 2003-04 season (Rafa's last in Spain) after Barcelona (inspired by Ronaldinho and kick started by Edgar Davids) went on a great run to finish 2nd. Before then, in this country at least, I seem to remember him being considered potential in some very average Barcelona teams. He started growing as a presence at 24.

You get the occasional freak; your Vieira's, Alonso's, Essien's and so forth, but there've been plenty of incredibly talented midfielders who have been nowhere at 22. They certainly weren't running the midfield at a team that expects to be winning leagues and European cups.

Lucas is the foil not the focus of the midfield. As soon as people start excepting that then he may have a chance. I'm sure I read the other day that Mascherano made nearly twice as many passes as him at home to Stoke, but then Lucas gets talked up as if he ran the midfield (I thought Yossi was the hub of everything productive going forward myself) which then becomes the rod for his back when he doesn't have a good game. Maybe instead of asking Lucas to run the midfield on a weekly basis the attention should shift to one of the best midfielders in the world, the captain of Argen-bloody-tina, as good a passing team as there has been in the world for years now, to take it upon himself to run the middle of the park? Christ knows he hasn't been close to that in the first few games. I don't know whether his head is in his 'paltry' pay packet, his missus visa application or floating around La Rambla. I don't give a toss either. He should be the general in that midfield, not leaving Lucas there to be slaughtered.

Lucas reminds me a little of Gago at Real Madrid. Both came over to Europe with the reputations for running midfields in South America and both are just too young and raw to do it over in Europe, much less at two of the continent's biggest clubs. You shouldn't expect them to be able to. They're not up against top draw players on a weekly basis in Brazil or Argentina. The talent leaves younger and younger and returns older and older and everything else in-between just isn't good enough for the football over here. Sad, but not far from the truth.

Maybe if Mascherano picks his game up then Lucas won’t be weighed down by the burden of running an entire midfield. He’s not ready to do it week to week. Occasionally he may be able to take a grip of a game (and he’s quite capable of doing it for 10-15 minutes spells) but Christ almighty he’s got an impossible task if people are asking him to run a midfield with the worlds best footballer and the captain of Argentina at the age of 22. It’s progress that he’s being less deferential than he was last season, but he’s not going to go from Oliver Twist to Gunnery Sergeant overnight.

If Mascherano gets his head out of the clouds and starts running a midfield like he’s well capable of then Lucas is a smart lieutenant who can take the reigns and the burden for periods in a match (and perhaps eventually over the season) as he develops. Just lay off the lad expecting him to be Alonso at 22. It’s not his fault Xabi moaned like a little bitch and fucked off after being given the incentive to have the best season of his career. He’s trying for fuck sakes. He’s having the occasional pop, he’s trying to get forward, he’s trying to play give and goes in dangerous areas, and he’s trying to get up and down the pitch for 90 minutes in the most frantic league in the world. He’s showing that he can do more than pass a ball sideways. A nice pirouette against Villa, a tenacious tackle against Stoke, a strong run against Spurs. He could show a bit more of course. He could engage the opposition midfield with the ball, run at them and show them that they’re not getting it off him without fouling him. He could occasionally just have a pop at goal instead of moving the ball sideways. Take the initiative. It’s not a surprise that he doesn’t do any of that though considering the groans he’d receive if he fucked up. It’s a vicious cycle. Player low on confidence doesn’t try the spectacular to avoid abuse. Player gets abuse for not doing the spectacular. Player attempts spectacular, fails, is abused. Player low on confidence doesn’t try the spectacular… gets abuse.

The kid’s confidence was visibly shattered after scoring an own goal on Monday, and he did go in to hiding a bit the 2nd half. After scoring the own goal though he did do that nice pirouette, come forward, attempt to play the one-two with Dirk and when Kuyt, not Lucas, fucked up there were groans and that was it for the night. A nice positive sign that he’d accepted that he needed to do something because of his fault in the goal, he took charge of the game and then bang, back into the shell he disappears. Alonso would never have done that. Alonso would never have scored the own goal, he was too good for such things. Hell, Alonso wouldn’t have conceded the free-kick, ‘cos there’s no way he’d have even been mobile enough to get back to put in a challenge in the first place.


Ahh fuck it. Go fuck yourselves haters. Watch as he rebuilds his career at a Fiorentina or a Sevilla before at 27 or 28 a big team goes back in for him when he’s finally been allowed the opportunity to mature and grow as a player. Couldn’t allow him that at Liverpool, I mean Alonso was boss at 22 so Lucas should be as well. That’s how it works. Well, not quite actually as Lucas should have been boss at 20. Especially when he had the audacity to show up with that haircut. He was Brazilian player of the year for fuck sakes, I mean he should automatically be one of the best players in the world. Fuck adaptation or gradual development. It’d never be allowed elsewhere, would it?

Oh well, at least Rafa has seemingly unshakable faith in him, so there must be something there. Say what you want about some of his buys, and there have been some horrendous shite in there – they’re never at the club for long though. Lucas wouldn’t be getting a 3rd season if there wasn’t a very good player in there. It’s debatable whether he’d have even got the 2nd.  Who knows, maybe he can have a good game on Saturday and then the other side of the tedious debate will get a chance to be ‘it’.

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Offline mooks

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1733 on: August 27, 2009, 05:55:18 am »
Who knows, maybe he can have a good game on Saturday and then the other side of the tedious debate will get a chance to be ‘it’.
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Offline Juan Loco

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1734 on: August 27, 2009, 06:11:35 am »
It was doing just fine till you came along

Do you have anything other than your paltry one-liners designed to give off an air of superiority? You're not a shining light of wisdom in the fog of inane chatter. You're a fucking scrote. You're either void of thought or you simply lack the ability articulate yourself so instead just resort to nodding along in agreement or acting like a condescending little gobshite, reeling off 2nd rate digs designed to undermine the point of anyone you disagree with, save you dismounting your high horse and actually having to debate the topic at hand.

Give it a break.
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Offline Schmidt

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1735 on: August 27, 2009, 06:58:03 am »
Do you have anything other than your paltry one-liners designed to give off an air of superiority? You're not a shining light of wisdom in the fog of inane chatter. You're a fucking scrote. You're either void of thought or you simply lack the ability articulate yourself so instead just resort to nodding along in agreement or acting like a condescending little gobshite, reeling off 2nd rate digs designed to undermine the point of anyone you disagree with, save you dismounting your high horse and actually having to debate the topic at hand.

Give it a break.

I often feel the same need to defend Lucas, I've managed to stun a taxi driver to silence (which is no easy feat) after he critisised Lucas, but to be fair people have really got behind him this season.

I can understand the frustration with those who boo him at Anfield, but I don't think you'll find many of those people on here.

Apologies if I've missed something important, I'm joining the argument a bit late.

Offline Portland1

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1736 on: August 27, 2009, 07:28:27 am »
Lucas has got my full support. He's just got to continue to play and get games under his belt. I think he will end up being very important to our title challenge this year.
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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1737 on: August 27, 2009, 07:45:58 am »
Hurrah for Juan Loco. And boo, because he's right that Lucas won't be allowed to develop here, and in 6 years' time you'll all be moaning when he signs for Barcelona or Madrid and runs the show. The kid has quality stamped all over him.

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1738 on: August 27, 2009, 07:57:10 am »
That's the thing that worries me about him. If he doesn't get the chance to develop and moves, I could see him becoming an excellent player for a top team.
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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1739 on: August 27, 2009, 08:04:40 am »
I'd point out that he's only 22 but it'd be lost on some of the critics, and indeed some of the sycophants who have spent the summer insisting he was ready to boss the midfield on a weekly basis for a team that's comfortable sitting at Europe's top table.

I'm not sure where this idea that at 22 he should be ready to run the midfield for a club of Liverpool's stature has come from. It'd be a big ask for him if he'd just stepped off the plane from Real Madrid and was asked to do that, but it's a ridiculous ask of a kid who's been making the general's coffee for the past two seasons to now step into his boots and lead the troops to war.

Maybe this retarded notion that he should be bossing games at 22 has stemmed from the fact that Alonso came straight into the fold at that age and looked at home? And of course, Alonso is the player he is replacing so that's who he should be judged by.

Alonso was a freak. He was a 22 year old playing with the presence and the awareness of someone ten years his senior. That's not every midfielder at 22. That's very few in fact. Where were Michael Ballack and Frank Lampard at 22? Had they even moved to Leverkusen and Chelsea? Where was Andrea Pirlo? Just coming off the back of a spell at Brescia and still playing behind the strikers. Xavi (along with Essien) probably the best midfielder in the world - I don't remember people salivating over him 'til the 2nd half of the 2003-04 season (Rafa's last in Spain) after Barcelona (inspired by Ronaldinho and kick started by Edgar Davids) went on a great run to finish 2nd. Before then, in this country at least, I seem to remember him being considered potential in some very average Barcelona teams. He started growing as a presence at 24.

You get the occasional freak; your Vieira's, Alonso's, Essien's and so forth, but there've been plenty of incredibly talented midfielders who have been nowhere at 22. They certainly weren't running the midfield at a team that expects to be winning leagues and European cups.

Lucas is the foil not the focus of the midfield. As soon as people start excepting that then he may have a chance. I'm sure I read the other day that Mascherano made nearly twice as many passes as him at home to Stoke, but then Lucas gets talked up as if he ran the midfield (I thought Yossi was the hub of everything productive going forward myself) which then becomes the rod for his back when he doesn't have a good game. Maybe instead of asking Lucas to run the midfield on a weekly basis the attention should shift to one of the best midfielders in the world, the captain of Argen-bloody-tina, as good a passing team as there has been in the world for years now, to take it upon himself to run the middle of the park? Christ knows he hasn't been close to that in the first few games. I don't know whether his head is in his 'paltry' pay packet, his missus visa application or floating around La Rambla. I don't give a toss either. He should be the general in that midfield, not leaving Lucas there to be slaughtered.

Lucas reminds me a little of Gago at Real Madrid. Both came over to Europe with the reputations for running midfields in South America and both are just too young and raw to do it over in Europe, much less at two of the continent's biggest clubs. You shouldn't expect them to be able to. They're not up against top draw players on a weekly basis in Brazil or Argentina. The talent leaves younger and younger and returns older and older and everything else in-between just isn't good enough for the football over here. Sad, but not far from the truth.

Maybe if Mascherano picks his game up then Lucas won’t be weighed down by the burden of running an entire midfield. He’s not ready to do it week to week. Occasionally he may be able to take a grip of a game (and he’s quite capable of doing it for 10-15 minutes spells) but Christ almighty he’s got an impossible task if people are asking him to run a midfield with the worlds best footballer and the captain of Argentina at the age of 22. It’s progress that he’s being less deferential than he was last season, but he’s not going to go from Oliver Twist to Gunnery Sergeant overnight.

If Mascherano gets his head out of the clouds and starts running a midfield like he’s well capable of then Lucas is a smart lieutenant who can take the reigns and the burden for periods in a match (and perhaps eventually over the season) as he develops. Just lay off the lad expecting him to be Alonso at 22. It’s not his fault Xabi moaned like a little bitch and fucked off after being given the incentive to have the best season of his career. He’s trying for fuck sakes. He’s having the occasional pop, he’s trying to get forward, he’s trying to play give and goes in dangerous areas, and he’s trying to get up and down the pitch for 90 minutes in the most frantic league in the world. He’s showing that he can do more than pass a ball sideways. A nice pirouette against Villa, a tenacious tackle against Stoke, a strong run against Spurs. He could show a bit more of course. He could engage the opposition midfield with the ball, run at them and show them that they’re not getting it off him without fouling him. He could occasionally just have a pop at goal instead of moving the ball sideways. Take the initiative. It’s not a surprise that he doesn’t do any of that though considering the groans he’d receive if he fucked up. It’s a vicious cycle. Player low on confidence doesn’t try the spectacular to avoid abuse. Player gets abuse for not doing the spectacular. Player attempts spectacular, fails, is abused. Player low on confidence doesn’t try the spectacular… gets abuse.

The kid’s confidence was visibly shattered after scoring an own goal on Monday, and he did go in to hiding a bit the 2nd half. After scoring the own goal though he did do that nice pirouette, come forward, attempt to play the one-two with Dirk and when Kuyt, not Lucas, fucked up there were groans and that was it for the night. A nice positive sign that he’d accepted that he needed to do something because of his fault in the goal, he took charge of the game and then bang, back into the shell he disappears. Alonso would never have done that. Alonso would never have scored the own goal, he was too good for such things. Hell, Alonso wouldn’t have conceded the free-kick, ‘cos there’s no way he’d have even been mobile enough to get back to put in a challenge in the first place.


Ahh fuck it. Go fuck yourselves haters. Watch as he rebuilds his career at a Fiorentina or a Sevilla before at 27 or 28 a big team goes back in for him when he’s finally been allowed the opportunity to mature and grow as a player. Couldn’t allow him that at Liverpool, I mean Alonso was boss at 22 so Lucas should be as well. That’s how it works. Well, not quite actually as Lucas should have been boss at 20. Especially when he had the audacity to show up with that haircut. He was Brazilian player of the year for fuck sakes, I mean he should automatically be one of the best players in the world. Fuck adaptation or gradual development. It’d never be allowed elsewhere, would it?

Oh well, at least Rafa has seemingly unshakable faith in him, so there must be something there. Say what you want about some of his buys, and there have been some horrendous shite in there – they’re never at the club for long though. Lucas wouldn’t be getting a 3rd season if there wasn’t a very good player in there. It’s debatable whether he’d have even got the 2nd.  Who knows, maybe he can have a good game on Saturday and then the other side of the tedious debate will get a chance to be ‘it’.


Stop trying to talk sense in here Juan, fucks sake!
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Offline Chivasino

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1740 on: August 27, 2009, 08:40:04 am »
We are going around in circles here, and may as well lock the thread after Juan's spot-on post.

Those who have it in for Lucas, will not change their minds. They will fail to see the good, and there's a lot of it, and focus on the bad. I very rarely see posts where people admit they were wrong.

Offline Red_Isle_Chap

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1741 on: August 27, 2009, 08:58:37 am »
We are going around in circles here, and may as well lock the thread after Juan's spot-on post.

Those who have it in for Lucas, will not change their minds. They will fail to see the good, and there's a lot of it, and focus on the bad. I very rarely see posts where people admit they were wrong.
The "i was wrong posts" take a long, long time to surface. Look at the length of time it took Dirk to actually be accepted
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Offline Hank Scorpio

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1742 on: August 27, 2009, 09:23:12 am »
Quality post, JL, as usual.

It's funny that you mention Lampard because ol' Fat Frank has been in my thoughts when thinking about Lucas.

When has Lampard ever run a midfield?  I mean honestly when has he controlled the tempo or dictated the play.  IMO, never.  But that doesn't mean he is not effective, in fact, whatever you think about him, he is one effective footballer and his teams benefit from it.

I would love Lucas to take a leaf out of Lampard's book.  The Chelsea midfielder has immense belief about himself and rarely is fazed despite being technically deficient.  He doesn't contribute heavily to his sides build up play but has enough quality to keep the ball moving.  He comes alive in and around the box when he is finishing moves.  And has the uncanny knack of being in the right place at the right time.

I said earlier in this thread that I don't think Lucas will make it here now.  It's not because of a lack of talent but because of a lack of confidence and support.

If there was one player in red, that night, who really didn't need to score an OG, it was Lucas.  I am not worried about Gerrard, he will recover from his mistake, like in the past, but Lucas didn't need that.
« Last Edit: August 27, 2009, 09:25:23 am by Hank Scorpio »

Offline Fordy

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1743 on: August 27, 2009, 09:45:42 am »
We are going around in circles here, and may as well lock the thread after Juan's spot-on post.

Those who have it in for Lucas, will not change their minds. They will fail to see the good, and there's a lot of it, and focus on the bad. I very rarely see posts where people admit they were wrong.

Some people have praised him though through the pre season but have voiced their fears now as this is the real thing.

Lucus may come good at 26-27 years old but he is at Liverpool FC now and we cant wait another 4 years for a player to produce.

I have said for a long time that we lack depth in the CM area and maybe JL is right that we shouldnt put a 22 in a position that he has to run the show. Hence the reason some are calling for Gerrard to move back in to CM until the new signing is fit.

Think the so called pro Lucas fans are missing the point and the point is Lucas is now a vital player in the 1st team and he has to produce. We cant afford a player lacking in confinence playing in CM.

Someone said that Lampard has never run a game but he become his own player when he moved to Chelsea. He became shoot from anywhere Lampard and luckly for him a lot of the shoots hit the back of the net.

As I have been saying Lucas needs to become his own player. Not a Xabi. 

While he is in the team fans will support him I am sure but he is in with the wolves now and fans will express their thoughts on here and rightly so.

Think a lot of fans including me really want Lucas to do well. He has a massive chance to make CM his own and I hope he does that.

Offline beardsley4ever

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1744 on: August 27, 2009, 09:51:29 am »
I think that we may be converging on an answer, no?  Lucas is a very good player for his age and in his position, and may in a few years be a top top quality player.  The problem is that he is being asked to play a critical role in a team that is trying to win the league this year, and that is a stretch for him.  Could he do it?  Maybe, but only if those around him perform at a world-class level.  But if they don't, we can't expect Lucas at this age to win games for us.

Everyone happy?  Lock thread?  :)

Offline TheVoiceOfRiise

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1745 on: August 27, 2009, 10:23:41 am »
well, if it's down to his locks I'll have him down for a skinhead by the end of the season!

in fact, potential wise, we could be looking at the next Duncan Goodhew!
« Last Edit: August 27, 2009, 10:37:46 am by TheVoiceOfRiise »
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Offline myrlas

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1746 on: August 27, 2009, 10:24:17 am »
Ay?

Have you quoted the wrong post?

If not could you let me know what the fuck you are on about?

Sorry, I actually quoted the wrong post. I was meaning to qote this nonsense:
while Lucas has good touch and decent passing, his sideway passes and passing to players with people around put other players in trouble, gives away silly fouls, I know he tries hard, he did after he let the own goal in, but just wasnt enough, coz other players also played badly.

First and last time I quote someone with the word 'coz' in it by the way.
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Offline lfc_bhoy

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1747 on: August 27, 2009, 10:32:03 am »
Fuck, can't say I've missed not visiting here for the last 4 days, you all are miserable bastards.
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Offline TheVoiceOfRiise

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1748 on: August 27, 2009, 10:36:34 am »
Fuck, can't say I've missed not visiting here for the last 4 days, you all are miserable bastards.

I'm Happy as larry me  ;D don't brand me with the miserable iron! ;D
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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1749 on: August 27, 2009, 11:18:52 am »
I'd point out that he's only 22 but it'd be lost on some of the critics, and indeed some of the sycophants who have spent the summer insisting he was ready to boss the midfield on a weekly basis for a team that's comfortable sitting at Europe's top table.

I'm not sure where this idea that at 22 he should be ready to run the midfield for a club of Liverpool's stature has come from. It'd be a big ask for him if he'd just stepped off the plane from Real Madrid and was asked to do that, but it's a ridiculous ask of a kid who's been making the general's coffee for the past two seasons to now step into his boots and lead the troops to war.

Maybe this retarded notion that he should be bossing games at 22 has stemmed from the fact that Alonso came straight into the fold at that age and looked at home? And of course, Alonso is the player he is replacing so that's who he should be judged by.

Alonso was a freak. He was a 22 year old playing with the presence and the awareness of someone ten years his senior. That's not every midfielder at 22. That's very few in fact. Where were Michael Ballack and Frank Lampard at 22? Had they even moved to Leverkusen and Chelsea? Where was Andrea Pirlo? Just coming off the back of a spell at Brescia and still playing behind the strikers. Xavi (along with Essien) probably the best midfielder in the world - I don't remember people salivating over him 'til the 2nd half of the 2003-04 season (Rafa's last in Spain) after Barcelona (inspired by Ronaldinho and kick started by Edgar Davids) went on a great run to finish 2nd. Before then, in this country at least, I seem to remember him being considered potential in some very average Barcelona teams. He started growing as a presence at 24.

You get the occasional freak; your Vieira's, Alonso's, Essien's and so forth, but there've been plenty of incredibly talented midfielders who have been nowhere at 22. They certainly weren't running the midfield at a team that expects to be winning leagues and European cups.

Lucas is the foil not the focus of the midfield. As soon as people start excepting that then he may have a chance. I'm sure I read the other day that Mascherano made nearly twice as many passes as him at home to Stoke, but then Lucas gets talked up as if he ran the midfield (I thought Yossi was the hub of everything productive going forward myself) which then becomes the rod for his back when he doesn't have a good game. Maybe instead of asking Lucas to run the midfield on a weekly basis the attention should shift to one of the best midfielders in the world, the captain of Argen-bloody-tina, as good a passing team as there has been in the world for years now, to take it upon himself to run the middle of the park? Christ knows he hasn't been close to that in the first few games. I don't know whether his head is in his 'paltry' pay packet, his missus visa application or floating around La Rambla. I don't give a toss either. He should be the general in that midfield, not leaving Lucas there to be slaughtered.

Lucas reminds me a little of Gago at Real Madrid. Both came over to Europe with the reputations for running midfields in South America and both are just too young and raw to do it over in Europe, much less at two of the continent's biggest clubs. You shouldn't expect them to be able to. They're not up against top draw players on a weekly basis in Brazil or Argentina. The talent leaves younger and younger and returns older and older and everything else in-between just isn't good enough for the football over here. Sad, but not far from the truth.

Maybe if Mascherano picks his game up then Lucas won’t be weighed down by the burden of running an entire midfield. He’s not ready to do it week to week. Occasionally he may be able to take a grip of a game (and he’s quite capable of doing it for 10-15 minutes spells) but Christ almighty he’s got an impossible task if people are asking him to run a midfield with the worlds best footballer and the captain of Argentina at the age of 22. It’s progress that he’s being less deferential than he was last season, but he’s not going to go from Oliver Twist to Gunnery Sergeant overnight.

If Mascherano gets his head out of the clouds and starts running a midfield like he’s well capable of then Lucas is a smart lieutenant who can take the reigns and the burden for periods in a match (and perhaps eventually over the season) as he develops. Just lay off the lad expecting him to be Alonso at 22. It’s not his fault Xabi moaned like a little bitch and fucked off after being given the incentive to have the best season of his career. He’s trying for fuck sakes. He’s having the occasional pop, he’s trying to get forward, he’s trying to play give and goes in dangerous areas, and he’s trying to get up and down the pitch for 90 minutes in the most frantic league in the world. He’s showing that he can do more than pass a ball sideways. A nice pirouette against Villa, a tenacious tackle against Stoke, a strong run against Spurs. He could show a bit more of course. He could engage the opposition midfield with the ball, run at them and show them that they’re not getting it off him without fouling him. He could occasionally just have a pop at goal instead of moving the ball sideways. Take the initiative. It’s not a surprise that he doesn’t do any of that though considering the groans he’d receive if he fucked up. It’s a vicious cycle. Player low on confidence doesn’t try the spectacular to avoid abuse. Player gets abuse for not doing the spectacular. Player attempts spectacular, fails, is abused. Player low on confidence doesn’t try the spectacular… gets abuse.

The kid’s confidence was visibly shattered after scoring an own goal on Monday, and he did go in to hiding a bit the 2nd half. After scoring the own goal though he did do that nice pirouette, come forward, attempt to play the one-two with Dirk and when Kuyt, not Lucas, fucked up there were groans and that was it for the night. A nice positive sign that he’d accepted that he needed to do something because of his fault in the goal, he took charge of the game and then bang, back into the shell he disappears. Alonso would never have done that. Alonso would never have scored the own goal, he was too good for such things. Hell, Alonso wouldn’t have conceded the free-kick, ‘cos there’s no way he’d have even been mobile enough to get back to put in a challenge in the first place.


Ahh fuck it. Go fuck yourselves haters. Watch as he rebuilds his career at a Fiorentina or a Sevilla before at 27 or 28 a big team goes back in for him when he’s finally been allowed the opportunity to mature and grow as a player. Couldn’t allow him that at Liverpool, I mean Alonso was boss at 22 so Lucas should be as well. That’s how it works. Well, not quite actually as Lucas should have been boss at 20. Especially when he had the audacity to show up with that haircut. He was Brazilian player of the year for fuck sakes, I mean he should automatically be one of the best players in the world. Fuck adaptation or gradual development. It’d never be allowed elsewhere, would it?

Oh well, at least Rafa has seemingly unshakable faith in him, so there must be something there. Say what you want about some of his buys, and there have been some horrendous shite in there – they’re never at the club for long though. Lucas wouldn’t be getting a 3rd season if there wasn’t a very good player in there. It’s debatable whether he’d have even got the 2nd.  Who knows, maybe he can have a good game on Saturday and then the other side of the tedious debate will get a chance to be ‘it’.

Fantastic post Juan.

I would possibly only disagree with some of the Mascherano comments.

He has become a world class player through having a tremendous engine, being a brilliant tackler, retaining possession well and being able to spread the play, not to mention his passion.  He has not built his reputation and become Argentina's captain on being a playmaker, or being the focal point of a midfield.  He has always had players for club and country alongside him who have been the inventive passers, for me him and Alonso were the perfect match and the best central midfield pairing around.

I think both him and Lucas could be ideal foils for a midfielder with a bigger passing range, albeit in different ways.  I fully expect Masch to be the foil for Aquilani when he is fit, with Lucas coming in when Rafa deems necessary.

Offline SMD

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1750 on: August 27, 2009, 12:07:56 pm »
Some people have praised him though through the pre season but have voiced their fears now as this is the real thing.

Lucus may come good at 26-27 years old but he is at Liverpool FC now and we cant wait another 4 years for a player to produce.

And we can't afford them when they produce at 26-27. So what do we do?
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Offline lukas

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1751 on: August 27, 2009, 01:11:36 pm »
Absolutely fantastic post Juan Loco, fully agree with everything.  :thumbup

I will love it when he proves everyone wrong and improves game by game, ill feel so fucking chuffed for him after all the shite he gets.

Keep going Lucas lad. :champ
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Online sinnermichael

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1752 on: August 27, 2009, 01:15:05 pm »
Tim Vickery's in the studio on talksport in a bit. I always enjoy listening to the guy and he's one of the better footie journalists around. He's always raved about Lucas when he was playing in Brazil so it'll be interesting to see if he gets asked any questions about him now that he's had a couple of seasons over here.

Offline Fordy

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1753 on: August 27, 2009, 01:28:53 pm »
And we can't afford them when they produce at 26-27. So what do we do?

Dont know. Look to an experience player. 29-32 years old.

Until we get new owners what can we do? Lucas is too young to run our midfield. We have a new player that a lot of pressure will be on as he comes with rave reviews.

For me like I say we're short in the CM area anyway. We need a stop gap. We did it before in Gary Mac and we should of done it again considering we sold Alonso and the new big signing is out until November.

Offline hassinator

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1754 on: August 27, 2009, 01:40:19 pm »
Do you have anything other than your paltry one-liners designed to give off an air of superiority? You're not a shining light of wisdom in the fog of inane chatter. You're a fucking scrote. You're either void of thought or you simply lack the ability articulate yourself so instead just resort to nodding along in agreement or acting like a condescending little gobshite, reeling off 2nd rate digs designed to undermine the point of anyone you disagree with, save you dismounting your high horse and actually having to debate the topic at hand.

Give it a break.


brrrap!  brrrap!

killer post jl - too many haters on here when young talent needs some love and nurture if its going to blossom.

smd - succinct and to the point.  we can't shop at harrods any more so we need to grow our own.

Offline mooks

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1755 on: August 27, 2009, 02:25:21 pm »
Do you have anything other than your paltry one-liners designed to give off an air of superiority?
Nope

Offline mooks

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1756 on: August 27, 2009, 02:28:45 pm »
I said earlier in this thread that I don't think Lucas will make it here now.  It's not because of a lack of talent but because of a lack of confidence and support.
Lucas has the support of the one person who matters at Anfield.

As for confidence - why do you think he lacks confidence?

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1757 on: August 27, 2009, 02:32:24 pm »
Lucas has the support of the one person who matters at Anfield.

As for confidence - why do you think he lacks confidence?

He seems like a strong person mentally. But getting booed by your own fans isn't going to help anyone's confidence.
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Offline BazC

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1758 on: August 27, 2009, 02:33:10 pm »
Dont know. Look to an experience player. 29-32 years old.

Until we get new owners what can we do? Lucas is too young to run our midfield. We have a new player that a lot of pressure will be on as he comes with rave reviews.

For me like I say we're short in the CM area anyway. We need a stop gap. We did it before in Gary Mac and we should of done it again considering we sold Alonso and the new big signing is out until November.

Lucas is at the right age now. Alonso was 22 when he came to Liverpool I think, Mascherano was around that and so was Sissoko (well I think he was a bit younger). They were imposing themselves right from the start. Alonso especially was the hub of our football right from his first games, Sissoko looked like an experienced thorough bred the first time I saw him and Mascherano looked even better than Sissoko- the player he replaced.

Lucas has had the advantage of being here for a couple of years longer and getting comfortable in the surroundings and getting experience at the top level.

He's ready to push on now- he's not too young in my opinion.
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Offline ErinMc66

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Re: Lucas a cut above as trim inspires improved Liverpool FC form
« Reply #1759 on: August 27, 2009, 03:25:57 pm »
I get quite a laugh from the contradictions around here... 

Rafa never gives young players a chance, but when he does and they aren't world-beaters then what was he thinking and he should get some experience in. 

A player just needs some matches to get his confidence, but then if that player doesn't boss the first match he should be off at the half.   

Lucas doesn't have the composure and experience we need in midfield, so let's give Jay Spearing a go. 

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