Author Topic: The Level 3 Thread  (Read 1189634 times)

Offline redmark

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Re: Level 3: Analysing our progress towards consistently dominant football
« Reply #7520 on: August 24, 2009, 10:31:37 am »
I can't see Aurelio becoming established in central midfield. As you say he has limitations and would need to adjust, but unless Lucas or mascherano suffer a significant injury, we don't need him to. I also don't believe he could cope physically. While requiring fewer long runs, the CMs cover more ground than anyone and are subject to more knocks than anyone. Recovery from these is not Aurelio' forte.

For all his ability, at these stages of their respective careers I can't see much more for Aurelio than a gradual handover to Insua over the next season, maybe two. We need a consistent starter (rotation is occasional, not every other game) and Insua needs consistent starts.
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Offline Pr0n

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Re: Level 3: Analysing our progress towards consistently dominant football
« Reply #7521 on: August 24, 2009, 10:48:07 am »
I can't see Aurelio becoming established in central midfield. As you say he has limitations and would need to adjust, but unless Lucas or mascherano suffer a significant injury, we don't need him to. I also don't believe he could cope physically. While requiring fewer long runs, the CMs cover more ground than anyone and are subject to more knocks than anyone. Recovery from these is not Aurelio' forte.

For all his ability, at these stages of their respective careers I can't see much more for Aurelio than a gradual handover to Insua over the next season, maybe two. We need a consistent starter (rotation is occasional, not every other game) and Insua needs consistent starts.

Agreed..
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Re: Level 3: Analysing our progress towards consistently dominant football
« Reply #7522 on: August 24, 2009, 11:05:56 am »
So how exactly does someone like Ronaldo fit into that? Or even a Cantona? Time and time again Man Utd have raised their best players to the status of iconhood - over and above the rest of the team, subsuming the rest of the team to a role designed to bring the best out of that icon.

That's the way I see it anyway - they're not working selflessly for each other. They're working for 'the man' ;)


Well clearly no modern football club - Liverpool included - is 'socialist' in its business practices. They exist to generate revenue for their owners. Star players help to do this of course, so long as you promote the be-jeezus out of them.

But sticking to what happens on the pitch you'd have to say that Ronaldo is a superb example of socialism. He works his togs off for the team. But without the team he'd be nothing. And socialism, at least as I understand it, is about the flourishing of individual talent. Collective endeavour creates the conditions for genius. Ronaldo is a football genius.     
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Re: Level 3: Analysing our progress towards consistently dominant football
« Reply #7523 on: August 24, 2009, 11:12:55 am »
I don't think we need Fabio to move into the middle, he's the best left-back at the club and i would prefer him to stay in that position or to be used a left mid backup if required. Lucas has done well so far, tonight is another big test for him, though it might only be Sidwell and Reo Coker :D
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Offline -Sad Fuck-

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Re: Level 3: Analysing our progress towards consistently dominant football
« Reply #7524 on: August 24, 2009, 07:00:28 pm »
Q) I am a keen listener to the World Football Phone In and last time my ears pricked up as you mentioned that the Chilean coach employs a 3-3-1-3 formation, apparently to great success.

I would be interested to find out what you think would be required of the players if a 3-3-1-3 formation was to be employed and if it would be a successful tactic if used in the English Premiership, or any of the European leagues.

My own view is that it would lack width and a team would need to have a star man to boss the midfield in order to make it work, the strikers would need to work hard to find space and the attacking midfielder (the 1, in the 3-3-1-3) would have to be careful not to get pressured out of the game.

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A) It's a personal thing of Marcelo Bielsa, the fascinating Argentine coach in charge of Chile. He wants to attack, and he wants the game to take place in the opposing half of the field, so he reasons that there is little use in the conventional full back.

He has one more defender than the opposing strikers - ie they come with two, he has three back, two to mark, one to cover and a defensive midfielder in front.

There is no lack of width. The idea is to have the constant creation of two v ones down the flanks, with wide midfielders linking up with the two wingers. The more obvious problem is the space left behind and the vulnerability to the counter-attack.

Bielsa seems to be interpreting the system with more flexibility now than when he was in charge of Argentina at the start of the decade. Then, the central striker seemed to get squeezed into the box without much space to work in. Now there's more inter-changing going on between the central striker (Suazo) and the attacking midfielder Fernandez.

It's a high pressure, high tempo philosophy that requires excellent levels of fitness. Argentina's big problem in the 2002 World Cup was that, drained at the end of the European season, the players didn't have enough gas in the tank to carry out their attacking intentions.

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Won't happen obviously, but an interesting idea all the same. (Tim Vickery blog btw)
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Offline killer-heels

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Re: Level 3: Analysing our progress towards consistently dominant football
« Reply #7525 on: August 24, 2009, 10:48:53 pm »
Has that twat Harry Redknapp shown everyone just how to play against us?

It could be individual performances, but were not going to play great all the time are we? Could teams pressing us now become our achilles heel?

Offline BazC

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Re: Level 3: Analysing our progress towards consistently dominant football
« Reply #7526 on: August 24, 2009, 11:16:08 pm »
Has that twat Harry Redknapp shown everyone just how to play against us?

It could be individual performances, but were not going to play great all the time are we? Could teams pressing us now become our achilles heel?

Teams pressing us when players in our defence have the ball will cause us problems I think. For now. It's probably no coincidence that out of the 3 teams we've played, the only team who didn't press Mascherano or the defence, are the team we thrashed 4-0.

It suggests that the quality of our attack is top class- it's just a case of getting the ball to them in positions where they can cause problems. It's not been easy against Tottenham and Villa because they've just shortened the time and decreased the space Mascherano had to set others on his way.

At the moment, there's a big, big gap between our defence and attack- teams willing to build a wall in that gap will prove problematic for us in the sense that we'll find it hard to break them down. At the moment, there just isn't a big enough player in that gap on our team who can take the game by the scruff of the neck and control it. Lucas is still getting there, and Aquilani's injured. So until one of those 2 give us that option, we'll see more games like that where we're grinding out wins. More likely though, instead of one player defining his game in that gap, players will need to transcend it. Gerrard, Lucas, Mascherano, Agger, Aquilani, Yossi, Aurelio, Riera... whoever's playing will need to bridge it together. I just don't think we've got one player who'se good enough to bridge that gap- but collectively, there's more than enough quality to sort it out amongst the 3-4 players in midfield.

Hopefully teams like Burnley will be overawed by the fact they're playing Liverpool, and not have the balls to go for it like Stoke.
« Last Edit: August 24, 2009, 11:19:42 pm by BazC »
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Offline rafathegaffa83

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Re: Level 3: Analysing our progress towards consistently dominant football
« Reply #7527 on: August 24, 2009, 11:17:56 pm »
It could be individual performances, but were not going to play great all the time are we? Could teams pressing us now become our achilles heel?

Our lack of movement makes it easy for teams to press against us. Our goal tonight arrived, because Insua quickly moved behind Villa's defenders and creating space for Torres. Sadly there wasn't enough of it, which resulted in Lucas often having to pass sideways, rather than forward.
Johnson looked very good tonight when he took players on, which helped stretch out Villa's defence. We need more of it from the flanks. I eagerly await Riera's return.

Offline Degs

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Re: Level 3: Analysing our progress towards consistently dominant football
« Reply #7528 on: August 24, 2009, 11:19:50 pm »
Has that twat Harry Redknapp shown everyone just how to play against us?

It could be individual performances, but were not going to play great all the time are we? Could teams pressing us now become our achilles heel?

I don't think pressing was the problem, Lucas and Masch had plenty of time to play passes but were woefully slow in their build up, I'm not going to repeat myself but I spent 2 pages a week or 2 back saying how this exact thing would happen (think it's around the 170-173 mark), here's a brief glimpse though:

Outside of the top 4 almost every team plays with a flat back 4, then 5 across the midfield, one lone man up top - and if they don't they do when they play us.  My worry is that if we were to play a short passing game between Mascherano and Lucas then either Gerrard, Kuyt or Benayoun would be forced back to around the halfway line to offer an "out" to them.  I think if you're going to play a short passing game you need a security net of a defensive midfielder and two footballers in front of him allowed to go towards the edge of the box.

It's been coming a mile off, without drive form the midfield it has to be found elswhere, against Stoke it was from full-back.  Allowing Gerrard to drop deep to shoulder the burden of Lucas and having Benny and Kuyt be in the box ready to score.

The simple solution to stop this and beat us is to play wingers, Milner, Young, Lennon, Modric. It means Insua and Johnson have to stay back or risk leaving these dangermen free.

Stoke had no wingers and 5 defensive midfielders playing, it meant the 2 full backs could burst forward and support the play, by the time they did it tonight it was too late, and it left gaps at the back that were being exploited.


Offline killer-heels

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Re: Level 3: Analysing our progress towards consistently dominant football
« Reply #7529 on: August 25, 2009, 12:30:14 am »
Well whatever the issue is, we need to snap out of it fast, or just grind it out for a while. We saw what happened last season despite being brilliant from February. If this is our bad run, chances are we will have another bad run again and that could pretty much leave us with too much to do.

Offline Varmenni

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Re: Level 3: Analysing our progress towards consistently dominant football
« Reply #7530 on: August 25, 2009, 12:44:41 am »
Call me the eternal optimist but I think we played rather well, created numerous chances and kept them to no real ones from open play (well up until the point when we were really chasing the game and had to open up).

First goal, I can't really blame Lucas for giving that free kick.  Villa were breaking in numbers and had us on the back foot.  This at least gave us to get the team back.

Second goal, don't know what the fuzz was about.  They should have concentrated on defending instead of arguing with the officials.  Anywho, thought Torres was in the perfect position to head it away but didn't.

Third goal should demonstrate why Gerrard doesn't play CM anymore. 

And lastly, I guess that due to perceived wisdom no one will notice the part Voronin played in our goal.

Offline socrates the sophist

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Re: Level 3: Analysing our progress towards consistently dominant football
« Reply #7531 on: August 25, 2009, 01:22:27 am »
I think we are getting carried away here; we lost because our players were sloppy. If anything I think Lucas and Masch were the best players on the pitch. Against Stoke Stevie dropped a lot. Benni and Kuyt cut inside while Torres wandered onto the flanks. We didn't do that today except in the first 10 minutes. look at the second half, we had our entire team (excluding Reina) camping in Villa's half yet couldn't break them down. this is because the team is so stiff, there was no movement what so ever and we need to address this for next game.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2009, 01:24:41 am by socrates the sophist »

Offline dgoh

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Re: Level 3: Analysing our progress towards consistently dominant football
« Reply #7532 on: August 25, 2009, 04:05:27 am »
Call me the eternal optimist but I think we played rather well, created numerous chances and kept them to no real ones from open play (well up until the point when we were really chasing the game and had to open up).

First goal, I can't really blame Lucas for giving that free kick.  Villa were breaking in numbers and had us on the back foot.  This at least gave us to get the team back.

Second goal, don't know what the fuzz was about.  They should have concentrated on defending instead of arguing with the officials.  Anywho, thought Torres was in the perfect position to head it away but didn't.

Third goal should demonstrate why Gerrard doesn't play CM anymore. 

And lastly, I guess that due to perceived wisdom no one will notice the part Voronin played in our goal.

Generally agree with all your points, lucas decision making could had been better, though it'll come with time. The player looked clueless before lucas fouled him, abit unnecessary imo . We were controlling the game until they scored, and even then on we looked like we could still turn the game around. Like how rafa summed it up we made mistakes at the crucial moments.

Should have taken the numerous chances we had.

Offline rafathegaffa83

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Re: Level 3: Analysing our progress towards consistently dominant football
« Reply #7533 on: August 25, 2009, 04:58:33 am »
Just looking at the Guardian's chalkboards for the match and is quite telling how narrow our play went after we conceded the first goal. If you were to look at Lucas' passes prior to and after the own goal it is amazing to note the difference in the availablity of the wide players. Following the goal, almost everything Lucas did had to be shuttled down the middle. I think Johnson received the ball from him once after the goal, Insua maybe twice.

The wide players just weren't available to him through a combination of static movement and Villa's defending.  But they will need to be each and every game in order for him or Aquilani to operate as our new midfield fulcrum. It is not surprising that our goal came from Insua being able to break away from the Villa defenders and stretching them out. Johnson looked dangerous every time he received the ball, but we weren't able to utilize him enough. Among other things such as less sloppy possession from key players such as Gerrard, I do feel we will need more and better movement from our wide players for a post-Alonso system to flourish.

Offline abhred

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Re: Level 3: Analysing our progress towards consistently dominant football
« Reply #7534 on: August 25, 2009, 05:56:14 am »
Any comment on how poor Gerrard, and especially Torres has been. We keep talking about playing a more a fluid football, yet these two still seem to want to play very direct. Can't count the occasions Torres had the ball, and instead of laying it down to a red shirt, all he kept doing was to run with the ball, and eventually lose it when surrounded by 3-4 defenders. Torres hold up play has always been poor IMO, and it's something he really needs to work on.
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Offline No666

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Re: Level 3: Analysing our progress towards consistently dominant football
« Reply #7535 on: August 25, 2009, 09:27:16 am »
How much of the problem is tactics/adjustment/mechanical and how much is mental? I am not underestimating the fact we need to implement an effective method to counter the current measures used to play us but the mental aspect is, I think, often dismissed by the usual 'they are professionals' argument. However, as we have in this thread drawn parallels, I'm going to draw a slighly unconventional one, which is with live theatre. It's a field I know a bit about because my daughter is involved in it and I've often been surprised, catching a performance on subsequent nights, how altered the quality can be simply because of a changed interaction with the audience, or a change in the mood of the ensemble. It's an incredibly delicate organism and it needs every small detail to be right for it to really motor.

The obvious analogy is in the audience/supporter ability to lift or deflate the 'performers,' but I suspect there are others. Someone (roy?) mentioned that there was a kind of emotional reduction in temperature among supporters after the Alonso sale - and I think it is fair to assume that the players would have to overcome that same impetus.

I am also struck, having only just caught up with the Carra autobiography, of the tone in which he talks of the league title. (This is the newly updated edition.) EG: 'I have no choice but to prepare myself for the possibility it might not happen.' Also: 'only by doing everything 100 per cent right, especially making the right calls with transfers and selections, can we have any hope of finishing first.' There is a note of desperation and obsession in there that strikes me as the enemy of relaxed play. (Also, an inference of doubt about Rafa/the board.) And I believe Carra to be one of the most influental members of the team, - for example, I would guess that he influences Gerrard's thinking rather than the other way round.

As far as silver linings in today's clouds go - I believe a poor start to the season might work in our favour, providing it is neither sustained nor calamitous, in that it might remove mental pressure by sticking us firmly in the collective mind as outsiders. Secondly, the early success of Chelsea and the perceived lack of problems at Manchester United may paper over cracks that consequently will not be addressed in this transfer window.

Offline scatman

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Re: Level 3: Analysing our progress towards consistently dominant football
« Reply #7536 on: August 25, 2009, 09:42:20 am »
How much of the problem is down to finishing and the play at the top of the pitch? In all honesty could we not have won comfortably last night if chances were taken? The one in the first half where we could have had 4 in 1 chance comes to mind.
Anyone else know why Riera is not playing? He's good at keeping a hold of the ball which the rest of the attacking players seem to have a problem with.
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Offline Hank Scorpio

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Re: Level 3: Analysing our progress towards consistently dominant football
« Reply #7537 on: August 25, 2009, 10:01:04 am »
Call me the eternal optimist but I think we played rather well, created numerous chances and kept them to no real ones from open play (well up until the point when we were really chasing the game and had to open up).
You know what mate, in a mad SOB kind of way, I agree.

I thought our overall play was very good and the evidence for this is the amount of chances we created.  I can remember Gerrard having a couple of decent digs, Kuyt getting on the end of 4 crosses and being very unfortunate not to score, Torres missing a sitter and not to mention Curtis Davies' blatant foul on Torres in the box.  Also, how the hell did Torres, Gerrard and Benayoun not manage to put the ball in the net in that first half goal mouth scramble?

Our problem was individual errors.  I worry for Lucas, I really do.  He strikes me as somebody who is just too eager to impress.  It leads to him making mistakes and he made two in the space of a minute that lead to the opener.  He didn't play badly but you could tell just how much he is effected by the crowd or in-game errors.  He needs to relax and let his talent shine.  The arguing with the referee and the subsequent 2nd goal are a concern.  We completely lost focus and allowed our emotions to dictate.  That is not the mentality of a title winning side.  And the 3rd goal, well, another mistake.

That's 3 dead ball goals.  Add that to the 2 we conceded against Spurs and that makes all goals conceded this season from set plays (the first Spurs one is debatable I suppose).  Is that a trend?

Apart from the blindingly obvious, there is room for optimism.  I have seen us play in the past, under Benitez, and literally create 5 or 6 half chances in a whole 90 minutes.  Now we are creating chances every few minutes and seem like a constant threat.  Mascherano was able to put his foot on the ball last night and distribute it.  Not to a high level but very encouraging.  Villa were very, very deep last night (at one point Kuyt received the ball on the right edge of the box and looked to his right to find Ashley Young standing there, not running back, but actually standing there, that's how deep they were) and we still managed to create numerous chances.  I can honestly say, hand on heart, that we easily could have won that game 4-3.

I think it was Baz who said he would expect a transition period while we adapted to life without Alonso and the new dynamic style of play.  Perhaps that's the way we have to look at it.  These things don't happen overnight and human beings learn best by making mistakes.  Hopefully we can learn fast.  But should we expect this season to be a transitional one?
« Last Edit: August 25, 2009, 10:03:59 am by Hank Scorpio »

Offline killer-heels

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Re: Level 3: Analysing our progress towards consistently dominant football
« Reply #7538 on: August 25, 2009, 10:03:27 am »
I think its our directness which is hurting us here.

We are in all honesty a very direct team with players who struggle when we try to employ a more slower tempo, passing system. Torres struggles with Spain and Gerrard himself isn't really the greatest at playing the game that way.

This was the issue with us playing 4-3-3. We just don't have players who have the movement and passing to play that system. We are at our best when we go out all guns blazing, hence our record last season when coming back from losing positions.

It doesnt help that our best players at doing this are all missing but there you are. We need our players (particularly in the final 3rd), to keep a hold of the ball alot more and not just give it away through flicks, tricks and hollywood through passes.

Can we adapt? I dont know. Do we need to put this season down as a transitional one?

Our front 4 is completely direct and at an age where you have to question whether they could. To me, its obvious why Silva was a prime target for Rafa. People kept going on with his goals and assists stats but from what has been seen of him, he is a player with plenty of craft and almost a play maker high up the field. With our direct players someone like that would be a god send and would help us keep the ball higher up the pitch, giving us time to support Torres and the front line and leave them less isolated.

Rafa once more bemoaned our inability to keep the ball yesterday. This is not a criticism which he has levelled too much but he has done it twice already. We cannot support the front line if we give the ball time and time again. Before it was ok because we knew that, despite the pressure on our midfield, Alonso would keep the ball and play the right pass and get Gerrard and our attack into good positions.

Now, teams know that by pressing the midfield, we may play the ball to the front line quicker and as such, they can push up on them as everything becomes a bit more rushed.

Offline b_joseph

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Re: Level 3: Analysing our progress towards consistently dominant football
« Reply #7539 on: August 25, 2009, 10:56:41 am »
Killer - We are not one of the good teams in the world when it comes to slowing a game down and passing it. Our 2 threats to score goals or the 2 biggets threats to score goals thrive on quick build up play and balls that allow them to turn the backs of their defenders.

Both of them hate to get too many balls with their backs to goal because they are very impatient. Look at the 2nd half, Torres had a new life in him because the game sped up. The quality wasnt any better but the speed of the game gave him new life and he was really really good in the 2nd half. Very aggressive and direct.

I dont see why the guys cant play at that high tempo when the game is 0-0 and not just when the game situation has us in a losing state. Look at how we ended last season, when did we ever come out and put in one of those performances where we just strolled around passing it as slow as a fingernail grows? The answer is never, we had Xabi, yes but we still moved everything around very quickly and punished teams high up the pitch.

And like others have said, 5 goals from set pieces and 5 goals conceded to start the season is silly. That will even it self out soon and we will reap the rewards of not conceding goals from open play.
That being said, that fucking 2nd Villa goal was a disgrace. Attack the ball...basic 10 year old footie right there. 2 guys are behind the attacker yet seem to think that they will get to the ball first. Ofcourse you wont, the attacker was 6'4'' and standing a yard in front of you.
Zonal or Man, I dont give a crap but atleast step towards the ball and get in front of your man when the ball is in the air.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2009, 10:59:30 am by b_joseph »

Offline killer-heels

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Re: Level 3: Analysing our progress towards consistently dominant football
« Reply #7540 on: August 25, 2009, 11:05:48 am »
It just seems more forced now. Teams pressure us and we try to off-load the ball quickly, they press, we try a hollywood pass (Benayouns crazy pass yesterday to the centre circle being an example) and we are under pressure again.

There is no cohesion which is understandable but there doesnt seem to be any acknowledgement from the players to keep the ball a bit.

We miss Alonso because we are struggling to get Gerrard into effective positions with the ball, which Alonso could do with his quick passes that could turn the defence. Yesterday our midfield showed no real tempo to their passing.

Then, there is the wings. If the centre fails, we have out wide to go to where we got all the joy yesterday and no surprise that Johnson was a threat on that side and Insua setup the goal. Will we ever sign a winger that gives us the same threat out wide that we have in the central areas? I have pretty much given up hope on that and am jealous as hell to those who got to see players like John Barnes at their best.

Offline b_joseph

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Re: Level 3: Analysing our progress towards consistently dominant football
« Reply #7541 on: August 25, 2009, 11:25:16 am »
I have to disagree. If anything, I feel we hold onto the ball for too long...partly because of movement but also because of the need to pass it for passing it sake.

How many times did you guys/girls find yourselfs saying that the centre backs or CM's need to step forward with the ball when nobody in a Villa shirt was around them?
Thats why I cant agree about pressing because Villa were actually allowing for those players to be able to step forward with the ball and 99% of the time, they passed it off to the nearest player in red. Only to get it back again while standing in the same area.

The Gerrard part ( not finding him the ball in good areas ) is solely on Gerrard. He has to learn that playing as a 2nd striker doesnt mean that you have to stay in the middle area. You can pull out to the left and the right at times...just in order to get away from the markers and to see if you can be a tad more effective in a different space for a while.
That little piece of the game is the only thing that is holding him back right now. He'll poull out to the left, reluctantly. But he will never just casually roam to the right side to see if he can get anything going there.

Right now, the team is just lacking in cohesion. IMO, the easiest way to get ourselves through this rough patch is to just press high up the pitch in every facet of play. Masch will protect Carra and Skrtel.
It wont be sexy but it should help us get some points while we get ourselves together.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2009, 11:27:26 am by b_joseph »

Offline Fuzion6

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Re: Level 3: Analysing our progress towards consistently dominant football
« Reply #7542 on: August 25, 2009, 11:32:53 am »
As some have already mentioned here we are an incredibly direct team. Our players generally don't like making off the ball runs - but to get the ball to feet and get to goal as quickly as possible. With Alonso as the conductor all this madness was held together - without him we look a bit lost. A lot of pressure has been put on Aquilani when he eventually gets fit. Assuming he is the saviour - what do we do in the meantime? Personally I think one way would be to adopt the Bielsa formation.

Someone else posted the formation on another thread - essentially a 3-3-1-3. The second 3 in the formation is key - its the DM line and the wide players of this line need to be comfortable defending, attacking (e.g. wingbacks) and even playing as a pseudo CM. Assume the back 3 is Carra, Agger (who is perfect in the Ayala role), Skrtel. In Agger's absence we have the Greek and maybe Skrtel goes in the middle. The DM line is then Johnson (pefect in the Zanetti role), Mascherano (perfect) and Aurelio/Insua (good options for the Sorin role). The "1" is then Gerrard...and our front 3 is whoever you like from the remaining attacking players. When Aquilani is fit - he would go into the "1" and Gerrard would play in one of the wide positions.

What this formation really means is that the back 3 and Mashcerano concentrate on defending....the 2 wide DMs act as wing backs and the front 4 do whatever they like. In the absence of a conductor type player - this could well suit our current direct personel - in this formation attacking wise it is designed to create options. With Johnson and Insua bombing and the front 4 having less defensive duties - the options are automatically created without much off the ball running or genius passes required. Defensively it can leave you exposed but this is reduced through team pressing (something the team is good at) and Mascherano filling the space left by the advancing wide DM players.

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Re: Level 3: Analysing our progress towards consistently dominant football
« Reply #7543 on: August 25, 2009, 11:36:46 am »
Yes but movement is a part of good possession football isnt it? Something which we havent been good at for a while.

We can be ever so static and ever so rigid. Is this something that will improve any great deal? We have more mobility at the back thanks to our full backs and I am excited about Aquilani's reported ability to be constantly on the move while playing short passes. But in the forward area we have players that still rely on getting the ball in their zone and going from there, rather than working the ball amongst themselves within the different areas of the field.

We need better mobility for definite but from the players we had yesterday, I dont see how we they can all of a sudden become a new pass and move, compact side without taking a season. The injured players can add to that but we need more and as every match goes by I become even more gutted that we didnt add a mobile, crafty attacker to our ranks. Hopefully Riera can bring us something as he has shown to be even more at home with Spain's passing, moving and possession style than others.

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Re: Level 3: Analysing our progress towards consistently dominant football
« Reply #7544 on: August 25, 2009, 11:43:07 am »
Killer, you are overdoing it, mate.

We made individual errors and, yes, our passing could have been better together with controlled patient buildup play but just think that with all these factors going against us we still managed to create chances with regularity.

The 2nd half was basically played in the Villa half.  I have never seen our centrebacks pushed up so far.  We were 10 yards inside the Villa half!  We were suffocating them but the problem was that the mistakes that had preceded meant we were not playing in a relaxed fashion and Villa were growing in confidence with every clearance.

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Re: Level 3: Analysing our progress towards consistently dominant football
« Reply #7545 on: August 25, 2009, 12:03:12 pm »
That's why I cant agree about pressing because Villa were actually allowing for those players to be able to step forward with the ball and 99% of the time, they passed it off to the nearest player in red. Only to get it back again while standing in the same area.
Villa restricted the space between their defence and midfield by getting their midfield 5 behind the ball as soon as possible.  They didn't press the source of buildup but overcrowded the areas where Gerrard/Kuyt/Benayoun would operate.

That is why we needed to be a little more patient.  The problem is that the mistakes meant that patience was an unattainable virtue.

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Re: Level 3: Analysing our progress towards consistently dominant football
« Reply #7546 on: August 25, 2009, 12:09:59 pm »
I thought Lucas and Monster needs to be more adventures with ball. At least on few occasions, they need to take players one on one in middle and make run with ball every now and then. In first half we didn't have enough bodies in their half and when we passed the ball to one of our forward players, they were closed down by 2-3 Villa players on most occasion. If monster and Lucas are gonna stand near each other  around half way line, it will be difficult for us. Villa were backing down and were piling bodies in their own half. Whenever we passed to our forward players in Villa half, they were closed down by 2-3 players and when the ball is lost they were quickly going on counter attack. If you don't have Alonso's passing ability, then at least use your mobility to deal with opposition pressure. After Stoke the signs were good but now it looks like long way to go.
     Hope Acquilani has that mobility and ability to take on players in middle. Xabi was very good at shielding ball from opposition and making quality passes. Monster can shield the pass and needs to be doing what he did in second half on regular basis.
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Re: Level 3: Analysing our progress towards consistently dominant football
« Reply #7547 on: August 25, 2009, 01:26:39 pm »
Killer, you are overdoing it, mate.

We made individual errors and, yes, our passing could have been better together with controlled patient buildup play but just think that with all these factors going against us we still managed to create chances with regularity.

The 2nd half was basically played in the Villa half.  I have never seen our centrebacks pushed up so far.  We were 10 yards inside the Villa half!  We were suffocating them but the problem was that the mistakes that had preceded meant we were not playing in a relaxed fashion and Villa were growing in confidence with every clearance.

Perhaps, but with the regularity that we were giving the ball away and loosing possession (something which Rafa mentioned in his interview) there is always the chance that players become frustrated. Lucas gave away a silly free kick at a time where the tempo and our general play was poor and Villa getting the chance to get a run on us.

Plus you have to take into account that we were playing a Villa team not brimming with confidence. They were bound to be a bit fragile at the start of the game. As it settled though, they gained in confidence and we struggled in the rest of the first half, after which they had gone into a 2-0 lead and were content to sit back.
« Last Edit: August 25, 2009, 01:50:26 pm by killer_heels »

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Re: Level 3: Analysing our progress towards consistently dominant football
« Reply #7548 on: August 25, 2009, 02:03:45 pm »
Any comment on how poor Gerrard, and especially Torres has been. We keep talking about playing a more a fluid football, yet these two still seem to want to play very direct. Can't count the occasions Torres had the ball, and instead of laying it down to a red shirt, all he kept doing was to run with the ball, and eventually lose it when surrounded by 3-4 defenders. Torres hold up play has always been poor IMO, and it's something he really needs to work on.
Yep, I've been saying this for ages. Seriously. Both need to pull their fingers out in a big way:

1) Torres needs to hold and lay off first and foremost. The turn and run is for if the opportunity is there - and it won't be if he never looks to hold up first - I will explain more in a moment.

2) Gerrard, Torres and Carra too (though actually Carra was excellent last night - I'd done him wrong with my criticisms of his ball carrying because he did it yesterday and, re-watching Stoke, he did a lot there too that I hadn't noticed) need to grow up and get off the bloody playground. You can't afford to only pass to your bezzy mates at this level and it really, really does my nut in. With Carra it's refusing to give the ball to Lucas - just won't trust the lad with it...though Mascherano doesn't use him a fraction as much as he should either - it's only really Kuyt of the senior players who does seem to unquestioningly trust him with the ball, but then that's not too surprising because Kuyt suffers just as much from G&T's selfishness as Lucas does - indeed more-so.

How many times have you seen one of G&T look up for that lethal early ball to the other, and if it isn't on, what do they do? Seems to me they very rarely pick whatever other passing option is open. Torres would rather run into 3 players than play Kuyt through, Gerrard would rather smack it from 30 yards than play Kuyt through.

3) With Torres in particular it's a massive, massive problem. With 1 up top, that 1 needs to make the ball stick - to relieve pressure when we're under the cosh, and to build moves from when we're piling on the pressure. Torres does neither because he's always looking for the first time foul.

This is also a BIG reason why he get's no protection from refs - he needs to watch a few hours of Drogba videos and fucking learn some tricks:

1) Drogba is a diving bastard. But the reason he gets the fouls while Torres doesn't is simply. Drogba looks first to control and lay off. 9 times out of 10 that's his aim. he makes sure the ball is fully under HIS control, and he makes sure HIS body is between the defender and the ball. That way, if he gets nudged from behind and goes over, the ref has little choice but to give the foul. Even if Drogba was play acting - there is no dispute who was in control of the ball, and there was no way the defender could get the ball without fouling Drogbal.

Torres, on the other hand, tries the turn. 9 times out of 10, that's his aim, the instant/control, turn. Not only is this of limited use when we're playing a massed defence, it also makes it very easy for the ref not to give fouls. Firstly, because if Torres is away then it would force the ref into bransishing reds etc - which they are rightly reluctant to do, so will need to be much surer and Torres doesn't go down like Gerrard either - he doesn't sell it well. He looks like he's diving even when he's clearly been tripped.

Next, because his first touch doesn't bring it under his spell regularly enough, that also gives the ref an area of doubt, again more margin not to give the foul. Finally, it's also made Torres rather predictable. If he concentrates on making the ball stick then suddenly defenders are going to have a whole new set of problems to work with. If Torres is making the ball stick, dropping deeper and drifting wide, then using the ball well, it stands to reason that Defenders won't be able to just 'bite his ankles' all the time - by sticking so tight he could drag them out of position time and time again. But because any defender knows what Torres will do, 90% of the time with his back to goal, all it took was for some team to find a strategy that worked OK to stop that move, and now the rest of the league has refined it.

It's also getting to the stage where I fear for Torres' future if he doesn't adapt. It is disgraceful how much punishment he gets, and I've said this for ages. He's either going to have to adapt slightly and make that punishment work for us, or he might as well leave, because he'll never get Ronaldo protection looking and playing the way he does in England for Liverpool. For Man U, mind, he'd probably win about 5 penalties a match but c'est la vie. Plus ca change mais c'est la meme merde.

-------------

Oddly though, in terms of the match, I'm actually not too worried. If we can clear up these sloppy mistakes, I thought the first spell of the 2nd half was very encouraging - that's how you move the ball against 'bus parkers', and we'll break any of them down playing like that for the majority of a 90 minute game. I missed the start but by all accounts we blew them away there too - got to learn also to maintain that tempo, or at the very least cut these fucking stupid mistakes RIGHT out if we do ease off a little - it's crept into our game to a shocking extent over the last season and a half or so.

We were also well set for another morale raising comeback until Gerrard's intervention. I'm not fussed at all about the lack of belief and heads dropping a bit in the last 20 minutes - of course that was going to happen when captain marvel gifted them the absolute crucial, and killer goal, at a killer time, and then responded to that mistake by quite clearly losing his own belief too. That's just too much to make up - and even then Kuyt should, probably would if Torres hadn't piled into his field of vision (another example of that selfish streak, especially when it comes to Kuyt) have scored for 3-2 and nearly 10 minutes left to pile it on.

A last point Re the ball sticking to our front 4 - we improved significantly when Voro came on. Not because Gerrard went deeper - because Gerrard played a lot worse than Lucas in that role, showing less ambition, no drive or running whatsoever, no good shots and no cutting passes - but because Voronin came on for Gerrard. Voro played with strength, drifted deep and wide, thus made the ball STICK to him, thus was able to conduct a few good moves. Of course, Gerrard does that when he's playing well there, far, far better than Voro - but he was poor on the night.

Voronin last night was, for me, a very clear indicator that the problem has not been with Lucas and Mash but with the front 4, and their unwillingness/inability thus far to adapt to the lack of Alonso when defenders are pressuring them. They have to - all of them - come looking and let others take their place. Stand and wait and Alonso could still find you - one of his great strengths, but that won't work anymore. We have to EARN space, and we have to earn space by sharing it - IE I drop back to find space, you get forward to take up the space I left, together we'll give their defence a real migraine. The front 4 should also all take a look at Voro's cameo last night to see exactly what I mean, and what that kind of play involves, and hopefully come away with renewed confidence because if Voronin can do it, then FFS G&T certainly bloody well can.



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Offline hesbighesred

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Re: Level 3: Analysing our progress towards consistently dominant football
« Reply #7549 on: August 25, 2009, 02:25:06 pm »
Incidentally -

We are not a 'very' direct team. Where the hell did this one come from suddenly? I agree that Torres and Gerrard do excel on quick, first time balls - both giving and receiving, but 'very' direct is something like Bolton for goodness sake. That's not us - we pass and move extremely well, did so last season too - too static front 4 notwithstanding. Our dominant displays last season were not at all from high tempo getting it forward as quickly as possible - except maybe away at Man Utd and Arsenal.

I agree that, G&T in particular, give the ball away far too much from 'forcing' it, or always going for the quickest, deadliest pass (as long as it's from one to the other - if there's a quick pass on to an unmarked Kuyt in the box Torres will instead dribble it into a blind alley, while Gerrard will just leather it one - only to give Kuyt a big shrug and exasperated look next time the Dutchman dares to do the same when Gerrard isn't even anywhere near him...) but that's not the same as us being a 'direct' team full stop. The problem comes precisely because neither has quite perfected how to integrate that understanding within the framework of what is actually a possession based team. They are perfect when we're on the break but neither, Torres in particular, is actually among our best players when it comes to doing the right things in the build up to break down a stubborn, deep defence.

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Re: Level 3: Analysing our progress towards consistently dominant football
« Reply #7550 on: August 25, 2009, 02:28:07 pm »
Killer, you are overdoing it, mate.

We made individual errors and, yes, our passing could have been better together with controlled patient buildup play but just think that with all these factors going against us we still managed to create chances with regularity.

The 2nd half was basically played in the Villa half.  I have never seen our centrebacks pushed up so far.  We were 10 yards inside the Villa half!  We were suffocating them but the problem was that the mistakes that had preceded meant we were not playing in a relaxed fashion and Villa were growing in confidence with every clearance.
This must also not be forgotten.

Not just half chances either - we of those 11 shots on target I remember at least 6 or 7 that would come into the category of 'clear cut'. It's not like the pot-shots we were taking to get up to 30 odd shots against Stoke at home last season. It's quality chances we're making, close to goal, properly cutting teams open. I still maintain that while there are big issues highlighted by the game, if we play like that in an attacking sense consistently against defensive sides then breaking them down will not be a problem for us this season.
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Offline Bob Loblaw

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Re: Level 3: Analysing our progress towards consistently dominant football
« Reply #7551 on: August 25, 2009, 02:36:06 pm »
The 2nd half was basically played in the Villa half.  I have never seen our centrebacks pushed up so far.  We were 10 yards inside the Villa half!  We were suffocating them but the problem was that the mistakes that had preceded meant we were not playing in a relaxed fashion and Villa were growing in confidence with every clearance.

But we never or very rarely see that type of pressure unless we're chasing the game badly. So i don't think there's really a positive to take from that pressure we created. It was, like you say, in other words, pretty mindless aimless stuff. But shows, we are capable of hemming teams in, but we need to be playing that high defensive line to do it, when we aren't chasing the game.

Seen it last night numerous times in the first half, as soon as our moves were breaking down, and Villa overturned the ball, because Carra and Skrtel were so far back, instead of being able to just step up and stop the Villa attacks from developing they were allowed to get turned and have a run at our Cb's without really having to play through anyone at all, just too easy form them. And that's were Lucas's og comes from. With use in trouble, he's forced into making a late sloppy tackle. Happened more than a few times.

Offline hassinator

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Re: Level 3: Analysing our progress towards consistently dominant football
« Reply #7552 on: August 25, 2009, 02:37:37 pm »
How much of the problem is down to finishing and the play at the top of the pitch? In all honesty could we not have won comfortably last night if chances were taken? The one in the first half where we could have had 4 in 1 chance comes to mind.
Anyone else know why Riera is not playing? He's good at keeping a hold of the ball which the rest of the attacking players seem to have a problem with.

i agree with your comments.  on riera i think we're going to sell him and that's why he's been wrapped in cotton wool.

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Re: Level 3: Analysing our progress towards consistently dominant football
« Reply #7553 on: August 25, 2009, 02:42:52 pm »
i agree with your comments.  on riera i think we're going to sell him and that's why he's been wrapped in cotton wool.

Swap deal for Robben.

You heard it here first.

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Re: Level 3: Analysing our progress towards consistently dominant football
« Reply #7554 on: August 25, 2009, 03:02:31 pm »
Swap deal for Robben.

You heard it here first.

hope springs eternal

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Re: Level 3: Analysing our progress towards consistently dominant football
« Reply #7555 on: August 25, 2009, 03:05:04 pm »
hope springs eternal

Delluded more than hope.

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Re: Level 3: Analysing our progress towards consistently dominant football
« Reply #7556 on: August 25, 2009, 03:58:32 pm »
Lots of words. General idea:

Cloud has silver lining.
Cloud is made of silver.
Cloud rains fifty pound notes and blowjobs.


All well.
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Re: Level 3: Analysing our progress towards consistently dominant football
« Reply #7557 on: August 25, 2009, 04:41:04 pm »
nice Juan, and your very hopeful there killer! Robben would be nice, but cant see it, tho we know Barca are after Riera, or supposedly..
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Re: Level 3: Analysing our progress towards consistently dominant football
« Reply #7558 on: August 25, 2009, 05:04:45 pm »
This must also not be forgotten.

Not just half chances either - we of those 11 shots on target I remember at least 6 or 7 that would come into the category of 'clear cut'. It's not like the pot-shots we were taking to get up to 30 odd shots against Stoke at home last season. It's quality chances we're making, close to goal, properly cutting teams open. I still maintain that while there are big issues highlighted by the game, if we play like that in an attacking sense consistently against defensive sides then breaking them down will not be a problem for us this season.

The problem for me is that it seems that people attribute our loss to our inability to attack rather than our inability to defend. This is a game that Man united would have won 1-0, we lost it 1-3. We shouldn't have conceded any of the 3 goals. Granted our (offensive) tweak-away from our stoke city game backfired. So now all that Rafa has to do is to allow Yossi, Stevie and Kuyt the freedom they had against Stoke while trying to sort out our set piece defending. We have conceded 5 goals so far, none came from open play.

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Re: Level 3: Analysing our progress towards consistently dominant football
« Reply #7559 on: August 25, 2009, 05:08:05 pm »
The problem for me is that it seems that people attribute our loss to our inability to attack rather than our inability to defend. This is a game that Man united would have won 1-0, we lost it 1-3. We shouldn't have conceded any of the 3 goals. Granted our (offensive) tweak-away from our stoke city game backfired. So now all that Rafa has to do is to allow Yossi, Stevie and Kuyt the freedom they had against Stoke while trying to sort out our set piece defending. We have conceded 5 goals so far, none came from open play.

I think it was more a case of Stoke allowing our players freedom to pop it around while they stood there looking gormless. Tottenham and Villa did no such thing (well, Villa did for a bit but they were far better than Stoke at least). Rafa can't do anything about this in my opinion- it's about the players themselves for now... they just have to get used to it and play more intelligently.

Rafa can't physically drum it into the players this time- it's something that will just develop with experience now.
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