Topic: Are we punching above our weight?

[killer-heels]

The Echoe's figures supersede the ones I worked on- it appears ours are now higher than Man City and Arsenal. I stand corrected.

City moved some of their expenses to a holding company. No way we pay more than them.

But we pay more than Arsenal and a shit tonne more than Spurs. Whilst we need investment, let that sink in.

We seem to be rewarding players more than they deserve. We did it with Mignolet and are about to do it with Lovren.

[SheikhMo]

We are not spending £100m this summer.

We'll spend at least that.

[naka]

We'll spend at least that.

We should recoup monies with Lucas, markovic , sakho ,Daniel and Stewart
So I would like to think if we only spend 100 million then we have been short changed

[killer-heels]

We should recoup monies with Lucas, markovic , sakho ,Daniel and Stewart
So I would like to think if we only spend 100 million then we have been short changed

We spent just over £100m after selling Suarez and getting CL football. If we dont get CL football there is no chance of us spending £100m or more.

[Reeves]

Yes, because we deliberately chose to handicap ourselves.

Is the correct answer. Our squad is punching but we should have a better squad.

[whiteboots]

City moved some of their expenses to a holding company. No way we pay more than them.

But we pay more than Arsenal and a shit tonne more than Spurs.

I moved my understanding of the wages bill in response to the Echo article.

I struggle with the claim  that we are paying more than Arsenal and City, as the article claims.

[killer-heels]

I moved my understanding of the wages bill in response to the Echo article.

I struggle with the claim  that we are paying more than Arsenal and City, as the article claims.

We are, though.

[The North Bank]

We are, though.

To be fair , a lot of the arsenal players will get new contracts in the summer on upgraded pay which will take us past liverpool.
Obviously city pay a lot more than both but financial doping means their wage bill is pointless and could be shifted around to look good.

[IgorBobbins]

Everyone seems so focussed on spending big, but what I'm most concerned about is spending money on the right players. It's all well and good paying £30-40m on a player, but if he's overpriced and actually quite average, we've blown our load but not improved the squad. And then no one will be able to blame FSG!

Clever scouting and recruitment is also needed - can we unearth some gems from somewhere, as well as going for names that all top clubs will be competing for? Find a Kante or Mahrez? I'd be interested to see what work the scouts and transfer committee have been doing all season.

[McrRed]

I don't get the panic. We spent big and we've spent wise. Mane cost a lot and many of us on here didn't want to know. Matip was cheap and is also looking good.

We didn't spend on a gamble that we'd get through to the end of the season comfortably. I'm guessing Klopp thought he could then have a proper window knowing there was champions league to offer.

The gamble didn't pay off. Key injuries to too many first team players means we now need a bit of luck to ensure CL despite us still being favourites for fourth. We can be overtaken and if we screw up again we will be. Shame really because the run-in was looking to be enjoyable.

[Filler.]

One of the problems we've got is when we write down our strongest team when fully fit, which I reckon 95% would all agree on... it's still about 4 to five... 6...7 even? Christ... 8? players short. One or two positions will SURELY have to be addressed in the summer, but there's one or two names on there that you'd like to have on the bench... or at least being part of a good strong squad. I'd like Clyne on the bench and I'd like Henderson on the bench. I'd like to feel that the player in Henderson's position is going to do a really good job in Henderson's position, so if Henderson is out, we'd fell not pleased that he's out, but filled with something positive rather than dread. I don't think Can is that player. Not yet anyway. We probably need some sort of striker. We need a bit more from Gini. We need some width and some pace. I'd like us to not miss Lallana. There's a hell of a lot to do, and I haven't started on defending corners yet.

Buying some heart in defense is going to be expensive, but this shit can't go on any longer surely. It will tho... been endless since David James, and it will take years before it subsides, but you've got to start somewhere, so why don't we at least give it a fucking go?

[Johns_Barn]

If we finish top 4, you could say we are punching above our weight, especially in light of the number of key injuries we've had. If we finish just outside the top 4, we are "par" for the financial muscle that we have compared to the clubs around us (wasn't it Rodgers who got pilloried for saying that?)

Problem is that we are Liverpool and we are expected to punch above our weight in terms of our finances, because we have our history, the best fans, a club spirit far beyond what any other club can imagine, and these things count for something real.

Add to that the fact that we have a manager that stands in line with our great club traditions, and there is a certain hope that we can punch well above our weight in years to come. It is sometimes a slow and painful process to get there, but we are headed in the right direction and there is every reason to be optimistic.

Used to have the best fans. The lack of our success and the success of newer teams has slowly taken that wind our of the sails. The Palace result wasn't a surprise in the slightest esp the way it happened.

[fowlermagic]

To achieve top 4 this season would be a massive achievement as we are treading water for too much of the season with a light enough squad. Of course we have had a few injuries but no more than most and considering how we play 110 mph football you expect a few tired limbs by now. That's the thing though, you would expect 3 or 4 key players to tire / get injured based on how much Klopp squeezes out of everyone and that is what has occurred. We have 3 or 4 players out which has led to us having little if no options B on the bench. I still think we will achieve Top 4 as the run in does favour us but we will probably have to fall across the line to do so. Hats off to the lads and Klopp if we do so but it also has shown we need quite a bit of boosting for a Two front battle next season (CL & League).

[killer-heels]

One of the problems we've got is when we write down our strongest team when fully fit, which I reckon 95% would all agree on... it's still about 4 to five... 6...7 even? Christ... 8? players short. One or two positions will SURELY have to be addressed in the summer, but there's one or two names on there that you'd like to have on the bench... or at least being part of a good strong squad. I'd like Clyne on the bench and I'd like Henderson on the bench. I'd like to feel that the player in Henderson's position is going to do a really good job in Henderson's position, so if Henderson is out, we'd fell not pleased that he's out, but filled with something positive rather than dread. I don't think Can is that player. Not yet anyway. We probably need some sort of striker. We need a bit more from Gini. We need some width and some pace. I'd like us to not miss Lallana. There's a hell of a lot to do, and I haven't started on defending corners yet.

Buying some heart in defense is going to be expensive, but this shit can't go on any longer surely. It will tho... been endless since David James, and it will take years before it subsides, but you've got to start somewhere, so why don't we at least give it a fucking go?

There is no way we need anything more than 4 or 5 players for the whole squad. This is a side in which 14 or 15 players have clocked up and will clock up over 70 points. Talk of 6, 7 or more signings and players is fantasy level stuff.

We are a very good side. We are just short depth in several areas. Some players we will sign may demote some of our current 11 and some may start on the bench but we dont need much more than that.

[Upinsmoke]

One of the problems we've got is when we write down our strongest team when fully fit, which I reckon 95% would all agree on... it's still about 4 to five... 6...7 even? Christ... 8? players short. One or two positions will SURELY have to be addressed in the summer, but there's one or two names on there that you'd like to have on the bench... or at least being part of a good strong squad. I'd like Clyne on the bench and I'd like Henderson on the bench. I'd like to feel that the player in Henderson's position is going to do a really good job in Henderson's position, so if Henderson is out, we'd fell not pleased that he's out, but filled with something positive rather than dread. I don't think Can is that player. Not yet anyway. We probably need some sort of striker. We need a bit more from Gini. We need some width and some pace. I'd like us to not miss Lallana. There's a hell of a lot to do, and I haven't started on defending corners yet.

Buying some heart in defense is going to be expensive, but this shit can't go on any longer surely. It will tho... been endless since David James, and it will take years before it subsides, but you've got to start somewhere, so why don't we at least give it a fucking go?

Can't agree with that amount needed. We were fine up until Xmas but the injuries and such took hold and that where we haven't been able to replace our first 11. If you take that team that went to arsenal, Chelsea and battered loads of mid table fodder at home you'd only add a couple to that first 11, for me it's the depth outside of that which is horrendously bad, our depth is either kids (Woodburn, TAA, Gomez) or made up of injury prone players (Ings, Sturridge, Henderson) or simply not of sufficient quality (Klavan, Moreno and and doubt over origi being second choice)

[RK7]

We've not had any Europe to contend with this season, that's a big advantage which isn't being mentioned when moaning about squad sizes etc.

[killer-heels]

We've not had any Europe to contend with this season, that's a big advantage which isn't being mentioned when moaning about squad sizes etc.

Thats fine if like Chelsea we dont get many injuries. Once you get injuries then you are in trouble.

[Red Beret]

Everyone seems so focussed on spending big, but what I'm most concerned about is spending money on the right players. It's all well and good paying £30-40m on a player, but if he's overpriced and actually quite average, we've blown our load but not improved the squad. And then no one will be able to blame FSG!

Clever scouting and recruitment is also needed - can we unearth some gems from somewhere, as well as going for names that all top clubs will be competing for? Find a Kante or Mahrez? I'd be interested to see what work the scouts and transfer committee have been doing all season.

See we've done this dance for ages.  It's one of points I made in my own post earlier.  We consistently fail to unearth the gems.  For every Suarez, there's a Carroll; for every Mané, there's an Ibe. 

Our transfer activity is as inconsistent as our performances - and the two are connected.

I don't get the panic. We spent big and we've spent wise. Mane cost a lot and many of us on here didn't want to know. Matip was cheap and is also looking good.

We didn't spend on a gamble that we'd get through to the end of the season comfortably. I'm guessing Klopp thought he could then have a proper window knowing there was champions league to offer.

The gamble didn't pay off. Key injuries to too many first team players means we now need a bit of luck to ensure CL despite us still being favourites for fourth. We can be overtaken and if we screw up again we will be. Shame really because the run-in was looking to be enjoyable.

If there is panic it's because, as I said, we're running to stand still because we consistently fuck up our transfer dealings.  January was a fuck up because Jürgen didn't reinforce the squad.  We're not Spurs or Leicester - we don't go a season without an injury crisis.  So when it hit, our season collapsed.

In the great scheme of things Mané didn't cost a lot at all - not at today's prices.  Djibril Cissé cost us £14m; he'd probably be about £35-£40m by today's prices.  Mané might have cost US a lot of money, but our rivals see £50m players as standard. 

The problem with "hunting for gems" is that all too often we've turned up petrified turd.  And whilst we might get some of the money back, it holds back the team, hinders squad development and progress on the pitch.  You can recoup lost money.  You can't recoup lost time.  If we don't string some consistency together we will keep stalling, and then we will start falling behind, a la Arsenal.

That's why there's a whiff of panic in the air.  There's only so much even Klopp can do; we simply can't afford to make any more mistakes.  Next season would have to be a damned near perfect season - anything less than a top three finish and a trophy and our target players wont care that Jürgen Klopp is our manager.  They'll be off to City and fucking Chelsea.

[Red Beret]

We've not had any Europe to contend with this season, that's a big advantage which isn't being mentioned when moaning about squad sizes etc.

And yet we still managed to fuck our season up.  Next season will be tougher still.

[Filler.]

There are clear areas that we need to address... left back, centre back and a striker. We'd agree on that. Everyone would. But you could go further...

..there's still a question mark over the goalkeepers. It's got a bit smaller in recent weeks, but I'd be amazed if it had disappeared completely this time next year. Jittery keepers behind so-so defenders with our record with defending set pieces is a very very large problem. Having said that... I doubt very much that we'll be buying a keeper. I'd like us to go out and buy two central defenders myself, but I'm greedy like that.

When or if Lallana is unfit or needing a rest in a four-pronged campaign (hopefully in the CL), we'll be fine because Coutinho could play there and we won't miss him out wide because we've got someone in who's making a case for a regular start there. I think we'd all prefer Coutinho more central more often than not (if he stays etc). We've also got to bring in someone to battle for a start in Gini's position. AND we need a replacement for Lucas too. So that's a wide player, and two central midfielders, with one of those midfielders able to play in Lallana's or Gini's position, and in a 2 for a 4231.

Up front we need a goalscorer.


So yes, maybe I am over-doing it (I am over doing it), but if we want to keep fighting for the top spots regularly against fierce competition, we need to at least head in that direction for me.



                         

[Zlen]

We can simply assume injuries are coming. Klopp has his foot on the gas pedal all the time and doesn't mix it up enough to keep the core fresh (no options really). We'll have some european games next year, while even without them we've struggled to field a decent team too often this season. We need to buy only players good enough to relegate existing ones to the bench. That way we'll at least have a great 11 and solid bench, not a decent 11 and the bench that contributes next to nothing. It's the story that is repeated every year, yet it's always sell one buy one with marginal at best improvements in overall quality.

Put up or fucking shut up summer for our scouts and negotiators.

[RK7]

Thats fine if like Chelsea we dont get many injuries. Once you get injuries then you are in trouble.

I'm sorry but I don't go along with this, it's just another excuse. Everyone has injuries, we may have 2 or 3 more than most but you have to ask yourself why and find solutions. You also need to accept that players with a history of injury problems will likely miss parts of the season.

And...you actually predicted this would happen.

[Coolie High]

I'm sorry but I don't go along with this, it's just another excuse. Everyone has injuries, we may have 2 or 3 more than most but you have to ask yourself why and find solutions. You also need to accept that players with a history of injury problems will likely miss parts of the season.

And...you actually predicted this would happen.

And many were disagreeing with her the Dutch guy and many a rival fan who said this would happen due to Klopps ethos in training and on the field, even myself so what do we know?

[Butcher Knife Roberto]

I firmly believe that our first choice eleven, when fully fit, can beat anyone in the league and likely most teams in Europe. In that regard I don't think we are punching above our weight. But in terms of squad we really are. I'm trying desperately to rid my head of the frustration I've had at how short we've been at times this season, but I have to counter that by thinking of the massive amount of experience some of our younger lads have had.

What will interest me the most going into the summer is whether we buy in ready made talent or if the youth development will persist. I can't help but think a blend of the two is absolutely necessary or we'll be left behind every season. An ideology is one thing, sating the appetite of the success-starved fanbase is another. Something will have to give.

[killer-heels]

I'm sorry but I don't go along with this, it's just another excuse. Everyone has injuries, we may have 2 or 3 more than most but you have to ask yourself why and find solutions. You also need to accept that players with a history of injury problems will likely miss parts of the season.

And...you actually predicted this would happen.

Indeed and my criticisms are that we should have signed at least a couple more players so we would have these solutions. You cannot just solve something when you dont have the tools to sort them.

There is no way you can say though that the squad is big enough. Its clearly not.

[killer-heels]

And many were disagreeing with her the Dutch guy and many a rival fan who said this would happen due to Klopps ethos in training and on the field, even myself so what do we know?

That dutch guy is an idiot.

Mane gets injured following an awkward fall in a game. Henderson has a long standing injury pre Klopp's tenure. Lallana injured twice when playing for England. Coutinho injured after an awkward challenge in a game against Sunderland.

These are not Klopp's fault.

[RK7]

Indeed and my criticisms are that we should have signed at least a couple more players so we would have these solutions. You cannot just solve something when you dont have the tools to sort them.

There is no way you can say though that the squad is big enough. Its clearly not.

Of course it is, it's just full of players with poor injury history, overplayed players,  players not trusted and some sent out on loan.

We had enough for a 38 game season and at least 1 cup. We dumped the FA Cup.

[killer-heels]

Of course it is, it's just full of players with poor injury history, overplayed players,  players not trusted and some sent out on loan.

We had enough for a 38 game season and at least 1 cup. We dumped the FA Cup.

We didnt have enough. I dont class an untrusted left back for example as enough.

[RK7]

We didnt have enough. I dont class an untrusted left back for example as enough.

Would Chilwell have made a difference? I don't think so, but he was apparently the solution.

[killer-heels]

Would Chilwell have made a difference? I don't think so, but he was apparently the solution.

I presume as his signing he would have been trusted more than Moreno. If he plays more games then we can shift Milner when short of options in midfield.

Its another trusted option. Moreno isnt. Chilwell has played Champions League and did well against Atletico.

[RK7]

I presume as his signing he would have been trusted more than Moreno. If he plays more games then we can shift Milner when short of options in midfield.

Its another trusted option. Moreno isnt. Chilwell has played Champions League and did well against Atletico.

Interesting.

[killer-heels]

Interesting.

Its not really that interesting really. We clearly did not have enough numbers or enough good players for this season and that has been born out in the players we have had to call on. Klopp takes the blame for me for that but we need to look at this in perspective, we are course to get more points than Spurs or even Arsenal managed last season.

It probably wont be enough but it is progress. Most people would have accepted 70 points at the start of the season.

[CrasherKid79]

Until we get a cohesive backline it doesn't matter how much money we throw around. As the leagues top scorers we are punching well below our weight.

[RK7]

Its not really that interesting really. We clearly did not have enough numbers or enough good players for this season and that has been born out in the players we have had to call on. Klopp takes the blame for me for that but we need to look at this in perspective, we are course to get more points than Spurs or even Arsenal managed last season.

It probably wont be enough but it is progress. Most people would have accepted 70 points at the start of the season.

We'll agree to disagree, we had enough players. The fact they are injury prone or only good enough to fill the bench most weeks isn't enough to hide behind. If that was the case then we'll need 7 or 8 players on top of what we already have going into next season.

[killer-heels]

We'll agree to disagree, we had enough players. The fact they are injury prone or only good enough to fill the bench most weeks isn't enough to hide behind. If that was the case then we'll need 7 or 8 players on top of what we already have going into next season.

So what are you saying then? Sell Coutinho, Mane, Lallana, Matip and Henderson because they got injured? Replace them with players who will never get injured? Or are you saying these players are good enough and theres enough of them so Klopp should have gotten more out of them?

[RK7]

So what are you saying then? Sell Coutinho, Mane, Lallana, Matip and Henderson because they got injured? Replace them with players who will never get injured? Or are you saying these players are good enough and theres enough of them so Klopp should have gotten more out of them?

He's got loads out of those players, pushed them really hard. I'm saying he should have rotated a couple of them more and knew what he was getting going into a season with Sturridge, Henderson and Matip being injury prone. Our squad isn't robust enough, it's not about numbers, it's about having a robust squad with options you're happy to use.

[lfcderek]

Player	Appear	First	Squad	Go
		11
Divock Origi	39		Yes
Roberto Firmino	38	Yes
Georginio Wijnaldum	38		Yes
Nathaniel Clyne	37	Yes
James Milner	36		Yes
Emre Can	36		Yes
Philippe Coutinho	32	Yes
Adam Lallana	31	Yes
Sadio Mané	29	Yes
Joël Matip	28	Yes
Dejan Lovren	28		Yes
Simon Mignolet	27		Yes
Jordan Henderson	27	Yes
Lucas Leiva	27			Yes
Ragnar Klavan	24		Yes
Daniel Sturridge	23			Yes
Alberto Moreno	17		Yes
Loris Karius	16		Yes
Trent Alexander-Arnold	12		Yes
Kevin Stewart	9			??
Ben Woodburn	8		Yes
Ovie Ejaria	8		Yes
Marko Grujic	6		Yes
Joe Gomez	3		Yes
Sheyi Ojo	2		Yes
Danny Ings	2			??
Connor Randall	1		Yes
Harry Wilson	1		Yes

Getting ready to drop below the parapet!!

That's (as I see it!!) just 7 first 11 players.

Therefore need

Left back
Centre back
Striker
Goalkeeeper


Get those 4 and maybe move on 1 or 2 more from the squad.

The presence (and upward trajectory) of TAA may mean we can afford Clyne as first choice for a year.

Ings is flavored partially by injuries and partially by Woodburn!

[Jayo10]

We are a top, top team. One of the best in Europe.

Lower league or relegation fodder squad.

Can we sort our depth out without paying through the nose like the big hitters?

as someone pointed out in another thread, it seems to be club policy to spend big if we make the champions league. It would be nicer to see us spend big in order to achieve champions league football. Theres a distinct whiff of wanting to do things on the cheap. If we make the top 4 great, but if we don't well at least the balance sheet looks healthy.

I suppose it is catch 22 though, with the sheer globalisation of football there are very few difference makers (in terms of signings) who are unknown and available on the cheap who clubs of similar stature won't be after. The best players want to play in the champions league, and the stars that forego it do so for a kings ransom (see Pogba and Falcao).

We need to be in the top 4 in order to attract the players who would be classed as difference makers. Its just too competitive these days to attract the guys to improve us without the carrot of elite european football, they will simply go somewhere else. And you just know we won't pay the top bracket wages either. You need to tick every box in this day and age, and when we don't then some other club invariably will.

I'd imagine we will miss out on most of our primary targets again this summer if we finish outside the top 4 and will end up spending about 20-30 million net on 3-4 players who "may" improve us due to fitting the clubs profile of being young, have potential and buy into what Liverpool are trying to do (which if we are blunt is trying to build stars bought at modest prices and sell them for big money which is in turn invested in 5-6 more guys and its rinse and repeat), which is in essence rolling the dice again without any real risk.

[killer-heels]

He's got loads out of those players, pushed them really hard. I'm saying he should have rotated a couple of them more and knew what he was getting going into a season with Sturridge, Henderson and Matip being injury prone. Our squad isn't robust enough, it's not about numbers, it's about having a robust squad with options you're happy to use.

Indeed. It was a mistake but we needed more cover for those players. I am not talking about 7 or 8, but 4 or 5 more. There is no way we have enough good options. For example, Coutinho and Mane are our only wingers, one of them get injured and you need to move your number 1 striker.

Was rotation or lack of a problem? Coutinho and Mane got injured by awkward falls and challenges. Lallana gets injured twice playing for England. Henderson has only played 27 games in all competitions. He has hardly been flogged here.

[killer-heels]

as someone pointed out in another thread, it seems to be club policy to spend big if we make the champions league. It would be nicer to see us spend big in order to achieve champions league football. Theres a distinct whiff of wanting to do things on the cheap. If we make the top 4 great, but if we don't well at least the balance sheet looks healthy.

I suppose it is catch 22 though, with the sheer globalisation of football there are very few difference makers (in terms of signings) who are unknown and available on the cheap who clubs of similar stature won't be after. The best players want to play in the champions league, and the stars that forego it do so for a kings ransom (see Pogba and Falcao).

We need to be in the top 4 in order to attract the players who would be classed as difference makers. Its just too competitive these days to attract the guys to improve us without the carrot of elite european football, they will simply go somewhere else. And you just know we won't pay the top bracket wages either. You need to tick every box in this day and age, and when we don't then some other club invariably will.

I'd imagine we will miss out on most of our primary targets again this summer if we finish outside the top 4 and will end up spending about 20-30 million net on 3-4 players who "may" improve us due to fitting the clubs profile of being young, have potential and buy into what Liverpool are trying to do (which if we are blunt is trying to build stars bought at modest prices and sell them for big money which is in turn invested in 5-6 more guys and its rinse and repeat), which is in essence rolling the dice again without any real risk.

When we came in the CL, we never signed any superstar players. This club won't move for players of the top ilk.