Topic: Can a Liverpool supporter be a Tory/right wing?

[Redman0151]

After I made a post in the other thread, it was suggested making a thread on it rather than derailing the topic, so what the hell. I think it's a pretty interesting topic.

My initial post consisted of this

A question for any Southern Tory Liverpool FC customers here.

What got you into supporting Liverpool FC?

It can't be love of the city, because for decades the Torys have attacked Liverpool relentlessly.
It can't be a connection or affinity with the fanbase, because Torys are seen as the worst scum imaginable by Liverpool fans. We sing about Thatcher being dead to this day.
It can't be the history of the club, modern LFC was built by a socialist who would detest the current lot of Torys.
It can't be the motto, because "You'll Never Walk Alone" opposes conservative viewpoints at their core.

I just don't know how a Tory from down south can end up supporting Liverpool. There's clubs like Chelsea much closer to home who have a history of right wing and conservative support.

I'm not taking the piss, i'm being totally sincere here. I just can't imagine a Southern Tory having any real connection to the club or what it stands for.

I know some people like to use the cop out "keep football and politics separated", but I don't think they can or should be. Football clubs, especially one like Liverpool FC, have unique cultures, the fanbases have grown and developed over the decades in different ways.

Liverpool for me is intrinsically linked with socialism and left wing politics. Shankly certainly didn't keep his mouth shut on his politics, and Liverpool is a city and community that has suffered greatly in many ways due to Tory governments and right wing politics.

So I am interested in how some Liverpool fans manage to marry being an LFC fan with supporting Tory governments. I'm also interested what many of our American fans think of Shankly, given the way socialism is viewed over there.

For me I don't think it's possible. Being part of the kop and LFC is being part of a community, surrounded by like-minded people. If I found out the fella I was hugging and falling down with after a last minute winner was a Tory, i'd have to get a shower when I get home. Being a Liverpool fan is more important to me than just supporting a team I chose because they were successful or I liked their manager/player or I played them on FIFA as a child.

I couldn't imagine walking through Kirkdale, Anfield and Walton then going home and happily supporting Tory. Knowing what the Torys have done and have tried to do against the city of Liverpool in the past. If you walked up the Kop wearing a Tory shirt you'd get spat on and sparked back down the steps.

As i've always said it's never been about "local vs OOT", i've met sound reds from all over the country at the game, some of them post on here. It's about understanding the culture of the club and what it stands for. Somebody was shocked in a thread yesterday that I would side with an old school Manc who votes Labour over a Liverpool supporter who votes Tory. For me it's not possible for you to truly be part of the culture and feeling around a club if you consider yourself a Tory. Tory was an insult to throw at people when I was in school, and I still consider it as such. I guess calling somebody a "Tory c*nt" is pointless, because the second word is implicit in the first.

[Cliff Bastin]

Liverpool FC was founded by a Conservative. Also this notion that Liverpool was always socialist isn't accurate. Liverpool had many Conservatives MPs in Parliament in the early 20th century who won by elections against liberals and Labour.

If you look at old Liverpool videos you see Union flags in the crowd with LFC on them etc. Things don't always stay the same of course and you don't really see that now from what I have seen. Liverpool is a diverse place and has a fantastic history, albeit a dark side with the slave trade.

[TepidT2O]

Well the answer is yes.  Because there are plenty of right wing/Tory loving Liverpool fans..

A better questions is "should you be a Tory voter if you are a Liverpool fan@?

Easy answer to that one.

[Xabi Gerrard]

I'm not a Tory but I'll answer anyway.

Most people pick their team at a much much younger age than they develop political leanings, usually before the age of 10. And once you have your football team you can't change it, its with you for life. I guess when people develop their political leanings (for most people this will be in their teens) it's too late to change to align with a football club that best represents those leanings.

I somtimes think about how lucky I am that the club I chose happens to align with my left wing attitude to life. It's a complete coincidence though.

[Redman0151]

Liverpool FC was founded by a Conservative. Also this notion that Liverpool was always socialist isn't accurate. Liverpool had many Conservatives MPs in Parliament in the early 20th century who won by elections against liberals and Labour.

If you look at old Liverpool videos you see Union flags in the crowd with LFC on them etc. Things don't always stay the same of course and you don't really see that now from what I have seen. Liverpool is a diverse place and has a fantastic history, albeit a dark side with the slave trade.

Indeed, although I think there's a huge distinction between Liverpool back then and Liverpool now. If the same people were around on Merseyside from the early 1900s having seen what the Torys had done to Merseyside over the years, I don't think they'd support the Torys. Politics as a whole has evolved since then, which is why I tried to separate the two as pre-shankly and post-shankly

[TepidT2O]

Indeed, although I think there's a huge distinction between Liverpool back then and Liverpool now. If the same people were around on Merseyside from the early 1900s having seen what the Torys had done to Merseyside over the years, I don't think they'd support the Torys. Politics as a whole has evolved since then, which is why I tried to separate the two as pre-shankly and post-shankly

Liverpool was a very different city then too...

[dave 5516]

Liverpool FC was founded by a Conservative. Also this notion that Liverpool was always socialist isn't accurate. Liverpool had many Conservatives MPs in Parliament in the early 20th century who won by elections against liberals and Labour.

If you look at old Liverpool videos you see Union flags in the crowd with LFC on them etc. Things don't always stay the same of course and you don't really see that now from what I have seen. Liverpool is a diverse place and has a fantastic history, albeit a dark side with the slave trade.

It was also very sectarian too...different city now.

[Cliff Bastin]

Indeed, although I think there's a huge distinction between Liverpool back then and Liverpool now. If the same people were around on Merseyside from the early 1900s having seen what the Torys had done to Merseyside over the years, I don't think they'd support the Torys. Politics as a whole has evolved since then, which is why I tried to separate the two as pre-shankly and post-shankly

Shankly socialism was based on the basis of hard work and collectivism. He could not stand players who didn't work hard as he said so himself. He would have half the Premier League in the dock for being such lazy bastards.

But I think football and politics while at times can draw links is also a different world for millions. A lot of supporters work for the week and can't wait until the weekend to go to the football or watch at home because it is a hobby and a passion for them. The last thing I imagine is any Tory Liverpool fans thinking about the situation with the NHS or social security or public services when preparing to watch Liverpool.

Its just two different things, football is a game to keep people entertained before they go back to reality on Monday morning.

[Cliff Bastin]

It was also very sectarian too...different city now.

Absolutely. Check out Ricky Tomlinson who do you think you are BBC documentary. Liverpool has a huge history, centuries of history.

[child-in-time]

I've seen my country collapse financially twice (although I was still a kid, I vividly remember the queues for food and basic consumer commodities) while the left-wing party was in power. The very next time they were in power I lost a significant part of my savings because the fourth largest bank was intentionally led to bankruptcy while the government pretended that nothing was going on.

So yeah, I can't really make myself like the left-wing. 

[dave 5516]

Absolutely. Check out Ricky Tomlinson who do you think you are BBC documentary. Liverpool has a huge history, centuries of history.

I'm A Scouser..I've got a good idea of the history of my city.

My point is simple...education did away with support of the Tories, sectarianism...and unlike lots of major cities we've no real fascist/racist groups organising here, just ask Tomlinson. We're also a city that looks away from England, more Celtic than English.  And for people from outside the city who support Liverpool..I think they should take some time and read some books about the city of the club they support and maybe they'd understand better our mindset towards the establishment and the Tories in particular.

Irrespective of ones team I find it beyond reprehension as to how anyone could support a party that is racist, uses race politically and has no qualms about attacking the weakest and most vulnerable within our society.

[Kenny's Jacket]

After I made a post in the other thread, it was suggested making a thread on it rather than derailing the topic, so what the hell. I think it's a pretty interesting topic.

My initial post consisted of this


I know some people like to use the cop out "keep football and politics separated", but I don't think they can or should be. Football clubs, especially one like Liverpool FC, have unique cultures, the fanbases have grown and developed over the decades in different ways.

Liverpool for me is intrinsically linked with socialism and left wing politics. Shankly certainly didn't keep his mouth shut on his politics, and Liverpool is a city and community that has suffered greatly in many ways due to Tory governments and right wing politics.

So I am interested in how some Liverpool fans manage to marry being an LFC fan with supporting Tory governments. I'm also interested what many of our American fans think of Shankly, given the way socialism is viewed over there.

For me I don't think it's possible. Being part of the kop and LFC is being part of a community, surrounded by like-minded people. If I found out the fella I was hugging and falling down with after a last minute winner was a Tory, i'd have to get a shower when I get home. Being a Liverpool fan is more important to me than just supporting a team I chose because they were successful or I liked their manager/player or I played them on FIFA as a child.

I couldn't imagine walking through Kirkdale, Anfield and Walton then going home and happily supporting Tory. Knowing what the Torys have done and have tried to do against the city of Liverpool in the past. If you walked up the Kop wearing a Tory shirt you'd get spat on and sparked back down the steps.

As i've always said it's never been about "local vs OOT", i've met sound reds from all over the country at the game, some of them post on here. It's about understanding the culture of the club and what it stands for. Somebody was shocked in a thread yesterday that I would side with an old school Manc who votes Labour over a Liverpool supporter who votes Tory. For me it's not possible for you to truly be part of the culture and feeling around a club if you consider yourself a Tory. Tory was an insult to throw at people when I was in school, and I still consider it as such. I guess calling somebody a "Tory c*nt" is pointless, because the second word is implicit in the first.

Your post centres around what YOU think a LFC fan is or should be. Now You make a good case and haven't said anything too outlandish  however everyone is different.

Jimmy Tarbuck; A scouser who supports Liverpool, votes Tory and has a friendship with Kenny.

No one is perfect, even left wing, liberal Liverpool fans. That's why there is an antagonism from many fans  towards OOTs. Something not very liberal/ left wing.

[Redman0151]

Your post centres around what YOU think a LFC fan is or should be. Now You make a good case and haven't said anything too outlandish  however everyone is different.

Jimmy Tarbuck; A scouser who supports Liverpool, votes Tory and has a friendship with Kenny.

No one is perfect, even left wing, liberal Liverpool fans. That's why there is an antagonism from many fans  towards OOTs. Something not very liberal/ left wing.

No, my post is centred around how I was brought up to understand Liverpool and Liverpool FC, and how the people I know and go the game behave. It's not like i've just plucked it out of thin air. The culture around the city and club is left wing with a strong hatred towards the Torys

[The North Bank]

Football is global now, you can be Isis and a Liverpool fan,let alone a tory, if you only support because of the football then youd be non the wiser about anything non football.

[Cliff Bastin]

No, my post is centred around how I was brought up to understand Liverpool and Liverpool FC, and how the people I know and go the game behave. It's not like i've just plucked it out of thin air. The culture around the city and club is left wing with a strong hatred towards the Torys

But maybe they just dislike Tories but are they all left wing and hold socially liberal views? No socially conservative views at all? Aren't people a bit more complex? I'd find it hard to believe that everyone you know is full on left wing and everything they believe is left wing.

[sminp]

There are plenty of people in Liverpool who have voted Conservative at the last couple of elections, not enough to get anywhere near electing a Conservative MP but enough that you'd assume they can't all be Everton fans.

[Kenny's Jacket]

No, my post is centred around how I was brought up to understand Liverpool and Liverpool FC, and how the people I know and go the game behave. It's not like i've just plucked it out of thin air. The culture around the city and club is left wing with a strong hatred towards the Torys

I pretty much agree with you.   Let say 98% of Scousers hate the Tories. That 2% might be match going reds.

Voting Tory means different things to different people. As does supporting LFC.

Shanks made a Tory the club captain.

So my point is yes you can vote Tory and support Liverpool hence the examples above.   

[Mag Hull]

I pretty much agree with you.   Let say 98% of Scousers hate the Tories. That 2% might be match going reds.

Voting Tory means different things to different people. As does supporting LFC.

Shanks made a Tory the club captain.

So my point is yes you can vote Tory and support Liverpool hence the examples above.

Ref the 2% - Michael Howard is a season ticket holder - mad red by all accounts.

[Danny55]

Of course you can but I'm guessing they are in the 'Shy Tory' bracket.

[Alf]

If you are an OOT then really you embrace the city, its culture and its causes as well as the club. But different for kids I suppose.

[It's Jimmy Corkhill]

Sadly, yes they can.

They should bail and support Chelsea though.

[Bunter]

The conservatism of the early 20th century was an entirely different beast to the neo-liberal Thatcherism we've come to despise in the past 30 odd years.

I just think some people have no idea of the political significance of the club and what it stands for, just basic ignorance.

[cloggypop]

I'm A Scouser..I've got a good idea of the history of my city.

My point is simple...education did away with support of the Tories, sectarianism...and unlike lots of major cities we've no real fascist/racist groups organising here, just ask Tomlinson. We're also a city that looks away from England, more Celtic than English.  And for people from outside the city who support Liverpool..I think they should take some time and read some books about the city of the club they support and maybe they'd understand better our mindset towards the establishment and the Tories in particular.

Irrespective of ones team I find it beyond reprehension as to how anyone could support a party that is racist, uses race politically and has no qualms about attacking the weakest and most vulnerable within our society.

Is right, Dave

[redbyrdz]

The easy answer is: yes obviously, because there's idiots everywhere.


The more difficult answer is: yes, because lots of people (and especially those on the conservative side) do not understand themselves as political. They likely wouldn't understand the question, or the discrepancy of it. Being a Liverpool fan is one thing they do, it has nothing to do with how they vote. Others simply lack the 'thoroughness' - another example, how many Liverpool fans do you know that line Murdoch's pockets by having Sky, or buying one of his papers?

Then we have the 'modern fans'. They know little about the club, and less about the city. They probably like the success of the club, or maybe they have some weak connection because someone else they know supports us. They could well be Tories, or they could not, but it is not linked to the club or the city.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

Of course you can, and people who come out with the 'you shouldn't support Liverpool if you vote Tory' should grow up quite frankly, from memory around 10% of the city votes Tory anyway and people are well within their rights too, especially if you see it as a binary choice and you aren't keen on labour, and if you think you'd be better off under them (and as much as so many people like to say they are Labour because they'll make everyone better off, it's also because they fall in the 'everyone' category)

And of course there are people born and bred in the city who have been Tories for years, and people who have this attitude are more likely to make more people Tories and make those Tories more resolute.

Then again I don't think it's a bad thing if the Tories win the odd seat in Liverpool, means labour won't take the vote here for granted.

[Priest078]

Nothing worse that a Tory scouser.

[alonsoisared]

I think people see football as different things. To many of us it is a reflection of life itself, the culture of the club is more important than anything that could happen on the pitch. To others it is something they love but is more a release from normal life, something that happens on a weekend for 90 minutes that distracts from day to day life. To others its just something they dont care about much other than its somethiny to talk about with your mates at the pub or in work on a monday morning.

Theres no right or wrong with any of that. Personally i would fall into that first category but as someone born outside of of liverpool im very lucky that i identify with its culture and political leanings. I imagine its more difficult as an oot if you grow up supporting liverpool through family and then one day you read up on shanks, thatcher etc and suddenly there is a conflict. I dont think you can just switch off your support for a team, so its easy to see why they would try to put a wedge between politics and football. As for people who dont really care all that much, youll see them all the time on social media
 Tories, ukippers, never been to liverpool in their lives, sometimes youll even see them making jokes about scousers.

The thing is that, like i said, theres no right or wrong way to support a football team. At the end of the day, in the literal sense, it is just a game. A game that has become more and more global, people from all walks of life from all corners will support us. Im happy to live and let live as long as liverpudlian culture remains at the heart of the support and of the club.

[rob1966]

There are plenty of people in Liverpool who have voted Conservative at the last couple of elections, not enough to get anywhere near electing a Conservative MP but enough that you'd assume they can't all be Everton fans.

My Dad grew up in Walton, voted leave and votes Tory. He's a Red.

Its not rubbed off on me - even though I'm probably now classed as Middle Class, I live in an area that votes Tory, my wife and in laws all vote Tory but I could never ever vote for them c*nts.

[McrRed]

Shankly was an unashamed socialist. He believed in the people.

We revere him. For what he stood for; for his role in creating the modern powerhouse of football we love.  Some of us are paying lip service to the spirit of shankly - because they're Tories.

[KiNki]

Any red voting tory should be turned away at the turnstiles. 

[So… Howard Philips]

The club's most successful chairman, Sir John Smith was a member of the Tory establishment?

Whatever the majority of fans political views are supporting the club doesn't mean you need to swear a series of loyalty oaths before you take a seat on the ground.

Do you have stewards banning Tories, UKIP! Lib Dems, Blairites?

[CornerFlag]

Yeah it can happen.  Think of the modern game, can you honestly say that Shankly would have the same sort of love for the club (and the game as a whole) given how money-centric it is, how the opportunity to chase the cash is often seen as a priority to the same supporters who would dare to dream of a title run?

The game (and the club) that you want is all but dead in the water at the top level from a social aspect.  We're customers, not fans.  We're a club with a proud history, but that history is intertwined with a Conservative founder.  So yes, Liverpool supporters CAN be right-wing, the modern game has almost fucked the legacy of your Shanklys, Busbys, Cloughs, even your Fergusons to a degree.

We bemoan what a Tory stands for, but we chase the money they bring when they have corporate boxes.  Football supporters are hypocrites in the biggest way, and I know that's not a popular comment but I'll always argue that's true.  I've lost a lot of love for what the game has become and I'm only 34 for fuck's sake.  Tory politics are not my cup of tea and I hate what they represent most of the time, but you're deluded if you think a Kopite and a Tory can't be one and the same.

[Lush is the best medicine...]

The club's most successful chairman, Sir John Smith was a member of the Tory establishment?

Whatever the majority of fans political views are supporting the club doesn't mean you need to swear a series of loyalty oaths before you take a seat on the ground.

Do you have stewards banning Tories, UKIP! Lib Dems, Blairites?

no but they were fine with a john fucking McDonnell banner on the kop earlier this season.

Keep personal politics out of footy is the right answer.

[Redman0151]

The club's most successful chairman, Sir John Smith was a member of the Tory establishment?

Whatever the majority of fans political views are supporting the club doesn't mean you need to swear a series of loyalty oaths before you take a seat on the ground.

Do you have stewards banning Tories, UKIP! Lib Dems, Blairites?

I wouldn't say no to them banning Tories and UKIPers from the ground. Think it'd improve the atmosphere if nothing else

[GreatEx]

from: Xabi Gerrard on Yesterday at 06:44:07 PM

    I'm not a Tory but I'll answer anyway.

    Most people pick their team at a much much younger age than they develop political leanings, usually before the age of 10. And once you have your football team you can't change it, its with you for life. I guess when people develop their political leanings (for most people this will be in their teens) it's too late to change to align with a football club that best represents those leanings.

    I somtimes think about how lucky I am that the club I chose happens to align with my left wing attitude to life. It's a complete coincidence though.

Spot on. In American basketball I support the Utah Jazz, whom I picked as a kid after playing a video game. If I'd chosen a team as an adult, there's no way I'd have picked a team from the Reddest of Red states with an almost entirely white population and super conservative Christian values... hell, you couldn't even get a glass of wine in a restaurant when I went there! As an adult I'd almost have certainly picked a team from New York, Chicago, Portland or Seattle. But despite all that, they are unequivocally "my team".

Speaking of lucky choices - I always identified myself as a Liverpool fan because I was born at Broadgreen Hospital, but as a kid growing up in Melbourne, I didn't follow football, I only followed Aussie Rules, and my team Carlton - known as The Blues. It was only after moving to England in 2000 (as a 23 year old) that I discovered there was a Blue team in Liverpool. So yeah... narrow escapes.

[Son of Spion]

I generally agree with Xabi Gerrard.
People tend to pick their club, or are indoctrinated into a club by family, long before they become politically aware. Where I slightly disagree though, is that this is with all of us for life. Maybe in years gone by it was, but so many 'fans' are fickle these days and simply pick a winning team and often change allegiance to the next winning team when they emerge. Hell, I've known people 'support' a team simply because they like the shirt they wear.  Anyway, that's veering off topic a bit...

I knew I was a Red decades before I had even a remote awareness or interest in politics, but I'm so glad that it turns out that my club sits well with the left-wing leanings it turns out I hold in later life. I got lucky, so don't feel conflicted.
I'm sure there are plenty of Tories that support our club, though. We have fans in all corners, and we have fans from affluent areas of Merseyside too. I'm sure there are a fair few Tories amongst them. I think plenty of people can seperate politics from sport anyway. Personally, I find that a bit more difficult to do. I'd hate to have been brought up to support a club like Chelsea, for instance. Also, if I go abroad I might buy a football shirt from the city I stay in, but I check their general leanings first. For instance, in Krakow I'd never touch Wisla stuff because their fanbase has Fascist leanings which I find repulsive, so I might buy a Cracovia shirt instead. This kind of thing matters to me, but to many, it doesn't.

I think there are more clubs in Europe that link politics and sport, but in the UK I'm not sure there are that many. There are the Glasgow clubs, of course, and you always tend to view Chelsea and Millwall as Right-Wing/Fascist leaning, but apart from that I'm not sure really. Although Liverpool the City and Liverpool the club are seen as Left-Wing, I'm sure there are plenty of Tories within our number given that we are local and national. We are also global, so I assume we'd have a fair number of Right-Wing leaners out there too.

One irony that is not lost on myself and many others is the amount of away supports from desperately deprived and rundown parts of the country who come here and give it large about slums, bins, poverty, unemployment etc before slinking off home and no doubt whinging about the Tories themselves. 

Football is so far removed from the game I and many others grew up with. These days it's as though the entire game has embraced Tory values. It's all about greed and revelling in how rich your club is whilst ridiculing clubs that don't have as much wealth. Some clubs and fanbases act just like that Loadsamoney Harry Enfield character. Wannabee Tories seem to be everywhere. We also have players who are quite average but who are multi-millionaires living in mansions and driving Lambo's and Ferraris just a few years after they were out of short trousers. I doubt many of them will be voting Labour in the next election.

[hide5seek]

Liverpool have had plenty of right wing players, Hughes, Souness, Barnes, Smith, Didi.
You can't get rid of right wing supporters (mores the pity), so you try and educate why your left and not a right wing supporter, on the whole you'll be ignored and often they'll leave rawk (if they've gotten involved in news and current affairs and not hid their heartless heart) because you often find their views are abhorrent and their me me me arguments are weak.

[hide5seek]

I've seen my country collapse financially twice (although I was still a kid, I vividly remember the queues for food and basic consumer commodities) while the left-wing party was in power. The very next time they were in power I lost a significant part of my savings because the fourth largest bank was intentionally led to bankruptcy while the government pretended that nothing was going on.

So yeah, I can't really make myself like the left-wing. 

Which country? There's different types of left wing. Communism is not the same as socialism and indeed socialism isn't all the same. There's sensible socialism, where you look after the poor and weak and try and make the tax system as progressive as possible. Then there's bay shit crazy socialism where you squeeze the rich until the pips squeak.

[child-in-time]

Which country? There's different types of left wing. Communism is not the same as socialism and indeed socialism isn't all the same. There's sensible socialism, where you look after the poor and weak and try and make the tax system as progressive as possible. Then there's bay shit crazy socialism where you squeeze the rich until the pips squeak.

Bulgaria. I am too young to speak from experience about communism so I will just leave it aside, but even after the democratic changes when the reformed socialistic pary governs, an inevitable disaster is looming down the road. This talk of sensible socialism - I have never seen it in my life so I will just assume its possible somewhere else but not here.

[Millie]

Liverpool is a unique place, I truly believe that.  The vast majority of scousers are socialists. 

No offence to Cliff Bastin but please don't try and teach us about our history.  Yes the club was founded by a conservative but that was at a time when Labour was very much in it's infancy as a political party, and also a time when workers tended to vote who their employers told them too.

Politics have changed so much since that time.

I do find it hard to reconcile that a Tory can support Liverpool.  The tories wanted to destroy our city.  Remember "managed decline" ?   How can any Liverpool fan have an allegiance with a political party that wanted to destroy Liverpool?  How?  I just can't get my head around that.

Tories are selfish gobshites.  Nothing more and nothing less.