Author Topic: Stockholm Incident  (Read 7178 times)

Offline jDJ

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Re: Stockholm Incident
« Reply #80 on: April 8, 2017, 02:08:47 pm »
Why should Buddhism be banned because of Muslim extremists?

Alright, you can keep Buddhism but pretty much all the rest have to go.
« Last Edit: April 8, 2017, 07:05:02 pm by jDJ »

Offline evie

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Re: Stockholm Incident
« Reply #81 on: April 8, 2017, 02:32:26 pm »
I was just there Wednesday and I'm in that area at least once a week. Feel a little sick thinking about it  :puke2

Glad it looks like they've caught the murderous bastard. Apparently they also found a bomb in the back of the truck that (obviously) hadn't detonated as planned. Things could've been a lot worse.

I just hope people won't turn to hate, although it's inevitable that some racist bastards obviously will continue their propaganda.

Offline jooneyisdagod

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Re: Stockholm Incident
« Reply #82 on: April 9, 2017, 12:24:07 am »
Alright, you can keep Buddhism but pretty much all the rest have to go.

Heard of the Rohingya in Burma? They might disagree with your assessment.
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Offline Kenny's Jacket

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Re: Stockholm Incident
« Reply #83 on: April 9, 2017, 12:51:45 am »
There is enough evidence out there to blow all religion out of the water, there has been solid evidence since Galileo which is indisputable.

Opiate of the masses, indeed.

Me personally - I would make religion a 'worship at home' only thing as that is probably more acceptable in the short-term than an outright banning initially.

Surely people will become educated enough to not believe in the zombie Jewish carpenter who is also Gods son who came back to life after three days and his ilk by the end of the 21st century.

I live in hope.

You cant kill an idea though, just hope it dies. Instead of tax breaks for religious groups invest the cash into scientific research that shows god fearing idiots just how silly the concept is.
As I've said before, the Full English is just the base upon which the Scots/Welsh/NI have improved upon. Sorry but the Full English is the worst of the British breakfasts.

Offline KiNki

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Re: Stockholm Incident
« Reply #84 on: April 9, 2017, 03:06:28 am »
You cant kill an idea though, just hope it dies.

well...you can...the world is flat was an idea passed as fact and believed by the masses. How silly we were to believe we'd sail off the face of the planet.  I guess other religions, norse, greek, roman, egyptian all came and went and became 'myth'.   Hopefully current religions eventually fall into 'myth' and we'll look back at the weird shit we did to each other in the name of religion and shake our heads at how stupid and stupidly dependant upon religion we once were.

Offline Caligula?

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Re: Stockholm Incident
« Reply #85 on: April 9, 2017, 03:28:09 am »
Can we all cut the crap about religion? You can't go out and demonize a whole religion - whatever that religion may be - just because there are some that use it to propel their extremist insanity. You don't ban religion, just reform it. Religion bashers like some of you are one of the main reasons why Trump was elected in the States.

Offline jooneyisdagod

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Re: Stockholm Incident
« Reply #86 on: April 9, 2017, 03:52:25 am »
Can we all cut the crap about religion? You can't go out and demonize a whole religion - whatever that religion may be - just because there are some that use it to propel their extremist insanity. You don't ban religion, just reform it. Religion bashers like some of you are one of the main reasons why Trump was elected in the States.

Bullshit. Religiously unaffiliated people that includes atheists, agnostics and those that simply think of themselves as spiritual but not religious have consistently voted for the democratic candidate over the republican one including Hillary over Trump. It's not religion-bashing irreligious people that elected Trump.

http://www.pewresearch.org/fact-tank/2016/11/09/how-the-faithful-voted-a-preliminary-2016-analysis/
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Re: Stockholm Incident
« Reply #87 on: April 9, 2017, 07:08:21 am »
Can we all cut the crap about religion? You can't go out and demonize a whole religion - whatever that religion may be - just because there are some that use it to propel their extremist insanity. You don't ban religion, just reform it. Religion bashers like some of you are one of the main reasons why Trump was elected in the States.

I think you'll find that I wasn't criticising a single religion. It's religion as a whole that I was speaking about.

I also suggest that a lot of Trumps support came from the regressive bible-bashers throughout the US who see him being anti-Muslim.

Abrahamic religions, indeed.
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Offline Kenny's Jacket

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Re: Stockholm Incident
« Reply #88 on: April 9, 2017, 07:33:07 am »
well...you can...the world is flat was an idea passed as fact and believed by the masses. How silly we were to believe we'd sail off the face of the planet.  I guess other religions, norse, greek, roman, egyptian all came and went and became 'myth'.   Hopefully current religions eventually fall into 'myth' and we'll look back at the weird shit we did to each other in the name of religion and shake our heads at how stupid and stupidly dependant upon religion we once were.

We outlawed Catholicism in this country once. Dont think it worked.

I went on to say that it will die with more scientific research.  If you can disprove the "God of the gaps theories" eventually religions will die. However history has taught us that banning religion doesn't work, it just makes things worse.

There is a story in the Qu'ran about Mohammed traveling from Mecca to Jerusalem on a flying horse and then upto heaven.  Its 2017 and people still believe this to be true in its literal sense.



As I've said before, the Full English is just the base upon which the Scots/Welsh/NI have improved upon. Sorry but the Full English is the worst of the British breakfasts.

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Re: Stockholm Incident
« Reply #89 on: April 9, 2017, 07:35:24 am »
Can we all cut the crap about religion? You can't go out and demonize a whole religion - whatever that religion may be - just because there are some that use it to propel their extremist insanity. You don't ban religion, just reform it. Religion bashers like some of you are one of the main reasons why Trump was elected in the States.

Well you can.  No one is, but you can. 
As I've said before, the Full English is just the base upon which the Scots/Welsh/NI have improved upon. Sorry but the Full English is the worst of the British breakfasts.

Offline Jake

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Re: Stockholm Incident
« Reply #90 on: April 9, 2017, 08:01:45 am »
Religion can suck my balls.

Good people would be good without a book telling them that a magic sky fairy will burn them if they're not.

Would the bad people be bad if it wasn't for the fact they want us to believe in their brand of a sky fairy? I doubt it. You don't get people driving pepsi wagons into coca cola stalls at the market.
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Re: Stockholm Incident
« Reply #91 on: April 9, 2017, 09:21:45 am »
I was just there Wednesday and I'm in that area at least once a week. Feel a little sick thinking about it  :puke2

Glad it looks like they've caught the murderous bastard. Apparently they also found a bomb in the back of the truck that (obviously) hadn't detonated as planned. Things could've been a lot worse.

I just hope people won't turn to hate, although it's inevitable that some racist bastards obviously will continue their propaganda.
They weren't sure yesterday if it was a bomb, or merely flammable liquids. Either way, he planned to have a greater effect than he had.

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Offline KiNki

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Re: Stockholm Incident
« Reply #92 on: April 9, 2017, 09:49:31 am »
We outlawed Catholicism in this country once. Dont think it worked.

At the time there was only one book, the majority of the population couldn't read, and when the King, Henry can flip flop between religions to justify his desire to divorce and remarry, it probably led to alot of people questioning their own faith instead of blindly accepting whatever spin was put on the decision.  A small step forward for non believers.

However, I was responding to the statement - "you can't kill and idea", not 'you can ban religions' and you can kill an idea, the human race has killed lots of ideas - the earth is flat was an idea killed with facts.  The recipient of facts has to be willing and able to accept them.  Difficult at first for those close minded, see dinosaur bones - a test from god, but not impossible. 

The religions that have turned into myth were practised and followed just as fervently as todays to the point we have cats as house pets but they've died gone and we look back and think 'that was a bit mental' we have to hope that in the day and age of more than one book, that people are allowed to become receptive to other 'facts'.

There really is nothing more mental than driving a truck into a bunch of people going about their daily businesses in the name of religion.

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Re: Stockholm Incident
« Reply #93 on: April 9, 2017, 10:30:16 am »
At the time there was only one book, the majority of the population couldn't read, and when the King, Henry can flip flop between religions to justify his desire to divorce and remarry, it probably led to alot of people questioning their own faith instead of blindly accepting whatever spin was put on the decision.  A small step forward for non believers.

However, I was responding to the statement - "you can't kill and idea", not 'you can ban religions' and you can kill an idea, the human race has killed lots of ideas - the earth is flat was an idea killed with facts.  The recipient of facts has to be willing and able to accept them.  Difficult at first for those close minded, see dinosaur bones - a test from god, but not impossible. 

The religions that have turned into myth were practised and followed just as fervently as todays to the point we have cats as house pets but they've died gone and we look back and think 'that was a bit mental' we have to hope that in the day and age of more than one book, that people are allowed to become receptive to other 'facts'.

There really is nothing more mental than driving a truck into a bunch of people going about their daily businesses in the name of religion.

How do you kill the idea and worship of God and the following of religious dogma

As I mentioned in an earlier post, I think to Jimmy Corkhill, you can offer contradictory evidence and hope that people, faced with over whelming evidence, change their mind. However you cant immediately stop an ideology in its tracks.


Perhaps we are debating the meaning of kill.
As I've said before, the Full English is just the base upon which the Scots/Welsh/NI have improved upon. Sorry but the Full English is the worst of the British breakfasts.

Offline OperationIvy

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Re: Stockholm Incident
« Reply #94 on: April 9, 2017, 10:42:02 am »
Religion can suck my balls.

Good people would be good without a book telling them that a magic sky fairy will burn them if they're not.

Would the bad people be bad if it wasn't for the fact they want us to believe in their brand of a sky fairy? I doubt it. You don't get people driving pepsi wagons into coca cola stalls at the market.

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Offline jDJ

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Re: Stockholm Incident
« Reply #95 on: April 9, 2017, 10:44:24 am »
unlike whether or not the earth is flat, whether or not there is a god cannot be proven. I, as an atheist, believe the balance of probabilities lies with there not being a god but it's not a fact.

There's actually flat earthers even now by the way.

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Re: Stockholm Incident
« Reply #96 on: April 9, 2017, 11:38:47 am »
I tend to stay out of religious debates on this forum because the overwhelming consensus is anti religion in all its forms.

All I will say is that my beliefs gave me hope when I had none left, and it's probably the main reason I am still alive.

So ridicule away.  It's nice not having to get involved in the cat fight.
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Offline evie

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Re: Stockholm Incident
« Reply #97 on: April 9, 2017, 04:23:27 pm »
I've just been to the place where it happened. There were so many people there leaving flowers - where the truck crashed but also on top of police cars. It's sort of fitting because of the great work they've been doing so far.

And I just read that a British citizen was killed in the attack as well as a woman from Belgium. The other two victims were Swedish and one of them was only 11 years old waiting to meet up with her mother after school :(

Running down a child with a fucking truck  :no  :'(

Offline Jake

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Re: Stockholm Incident
« Reply #98 on: April 9, 2017, 04:50:03 pm »
I tend to stay out of religious debates on this forum because the overwhelming consensus is anti religion in all its forms.

All I will say is that my beliefs gave me hope when I had none left, and it's probably the main reason I am still alive.

So ridicule away.  It's nice not having to get involved in the cat fight.

And whilst that's nice, and we're all glad you're on the up and up, wouldn't you have been helped out in your time of need by a bunch of people who just believe in humanity and community and charity?
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Offline Doc Red

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Re: Stockholm Incident
« Reply #99 on: April 9, 2017, 06:45:34 pm »
Sweden is our big brother in so many ways. A lot of our policies are somehow a reflection of theirs.
The running joke among our academics when discussing research is to ask "well what do they say about this in Sweden".

The thing about us Northerners is we're proud of our values. We may be considered a tad bit liberal by the rest of Europe, our social welfare structure may have it's naysayers, but we really do believe that individuals in a society should have basic rights guaranteed; health, education, housing, and from an intellectual standpoint, the right to disagree. 20,000 Iraqi asylum seekersknocked on our borders almost 18 months ago, and still here we are with the same welfare structure.
Right at the heart of our capitol city is a protest for and by asylum seekers, 50 meters away is the counter protest. Both sides snug in their own tents, both freely excercising their rights to protest and share opinions. We take pride in examples like that, protesting against decisions we disagree with even if the government disagrees, agreeing to disagree, these are what separates us from violent extremists, military dictatorships, ruling families/ Kingdoms, many peddling their concept of a religious society. In theory, it's what leads to higher levels of accountability from our governments; make a move we don't like and we'll make it known our views.

It's going to take more than a truck, van,or bus, to make us turn our backs on our values. We will mourn the deaths of the innocent ones that were killed indiscriminently and only because they happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, enjoying the freedom that the violent extremists loathe.
We voluntarily built our societies in the cold and snow in a land with 6 months of mostly darkness and guaranteed warm food and warm shelter for anyone here regardless of their opinions. We may be the silent, socially awkward Europeans, but we're as stubborn as they come. The Starks got nothing on us.

It's a bit disappointing to see this thread about the Stockholm deaths getting peppered by posts alluding to eliminating religion as a solution to keeping us safe. Does the right to have an opinion, the right to come to ones own conclusions without force or consequence, the concept of freedom of thought mean so little to you that you'd give it up so quickly? If you want to see how a society functions when it becomes illegal simply to have a thought that counters the government stance, take a look at the countries where the asylum seekers are fleeing; Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan. Or better yet, study European history during the Medieval periods right up until the Enlightenment era.

People look to us to see examples of societies that best present the concepts of freedom of choice and thought. The last two years has shown many of us have taken it for granted, such is the level of animosity shown to individuals that believe in "magic from the sky". Remember, it wasn't that long ago when it was the complete reversal and animosity was shown to individuals that were secular in their beliefs.

It's not so much that history repeats itself, it's that we are always the same, just in different eras. Tolerance and freedom is something we seem to always strive to get, then strive to lose.
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Offline Xabi Gerrard

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Re: Stockholm Incident
« Reply #100 on: April 9, 2017, 07:01:25 pm »
Sweden is our big brother in so many ways. A lot of our policies are somehow a reflection of theirs.
The running joke among our academics when discussing research is to ask "well what do they say about this in Sweden".

The thing about us Northerners is we're proud of our values. We may be considered a tad bit liberal by the rest of Europe, our social welfare structure may have it's naysayers, but we really do believe that individuals in a society should have basic rights guaranteed; health, education, housing, and from an intellectual standpoint, the right to disagree. 20,000 Iraqi asylum seekersknocked on our borders almost 18 months ago, and still here we are with the same welfare structure.
Right at the heart of our capitol city is a protest for and by asylum seekers, 50 meters away is the counter protest. Both sides snug in their own tents, both freely excercising their rights to protest and share opinions. We take pride in examples like that, protesting against decisions we disagree with even if the government disagrees, agreeing to disagree, these are what separates us from violent extremists, military dictatorships, ruling families/ Kingdoms, many peddling their concept of a religious society. In theory, it's what leads to higher levels of accountability from our governments; make a move we don't like and we'll make it known our views.

It's going to take more than a truck, van,or bus, to make us turn our backs on our values. We will mourn the deaths of the innocent ones that were killed indiscriminently and only because they happened to be in the wrong place at the wrong time, enjoying the freedom that the violent extremists loathe.
We voluntarily built our societies in the cold and snow in a land with 6 months of mostly darkness and guaranteed warm food and warm shelter for anyone here regardless of their opinions. We may be the silent, socially awkward Europeans, but we're as stubborn as they come. The Starks got nothing on us.

It's a bit disappointing to see this thread about the Stockholm deaths getting peppered by posts alluding to eliminating religion as a solution to keeping us safe. Does the right to have an opinion, the right to come to ones own conclusions without force or consequence, the concept of freedom of thought mean so little to you that you'd give it up so quickly? If you want to see how a society functions when it becomes illegal simply to have a thought that counters the government stance, take a look at the countries where the asylum seekers are fleeing; Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan. Or better yet, study European history during the Medieval periods right up until the Enlightenment era.

People look to us to see examples of societies that best present the concepts of freedom of choice and thought. The last two years has shown many of us have taken it for granted, such is the level of animosity shown to individuals that believe in "magic from the sky". Remember, it wasn't that long ago when it was the complete reversal and animosity was shown to individuals that were secular in their beliefs.

It's not so much that history repeats itself, it's that we are always the same, just in different eras. Tolerance and freedom is something we seem to always strive to get, then strive to lose.

What a wonderful post Doc, thanks for writing it. For me, Scandinavian society and liberalism should be what the rest of the world aspires to. Lets hope that it never changes, even in the face of horrific provocation. Your neighbours across the border got it right when dealing with extremism, there's a lot the rest of us can learn from you in terms of not giving the terrorists the division they want.

Offline Kenny's Jacket

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Re: Stockholm Incident
« Reply #101 on: April 9, 2017, 07:24:49 pm »


It's a bit disappointing to see this thread about the Stockholm deaths getting peppered by posts alluding to eliminating religion as a solution to keeping us safe. Does the right to have an opinion, the right to come to ones own conclusions without force or consequence, the concept of freedom of thought mean so little to you that you'd give it up so quickly? If you want to see how a society functions when it becomes illegal simply to have a thought that counters the government stance, take a look at the countries where the asylum seekers are fleeing; Iraq, Syria, Afghanistan. Or better yet, study European history during the Medieval periods right up until the Enlightenment era.



To be fair Doc I was one of those who made posts you are possibly referring to.  The point isn't to eliminate religion or freedom of thought, its to produce enough evidence that people stop believing of their own accord. 

Religion can be a very powerful thing for some. That power can then be used to promote evil.  You can argue that these people would get radicalised by other means if they were not religious and you are quite possibly right, however this "other" means of radicalisation would most likely be easier to combat than a devotion to God, the eternal afterlife and such. 




As I've said before, the Full English is just the base upon which the Scots/Welsh/NI have improved upon. Sorry but the Full English is the worst of the British breakfasts.

Offline telekon

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Re: Stockholm Incident
« Reply #102 on: April 10, 2017, 01:09:19 am »
ISIS has very little to do with religion. It's a twisted death cult that take a perverse view of the Islamic faith and turns it into something barely recognisable. It's not so much ideology as social mechanisms like group sociology, violence, and alienation.

The very notion to mix this in with refugee intake is not only tactless but seriously shameful. The refugees are fleeing the very thing that happened on Friday. Violence by either state or terrorist groups. If you're that ill informed you'd better stay away from making assumptions and poorly reasoned arguments.



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Offline electricghost

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Re: Stockholm Incident
« Reply #103 on: April 10, 2017, 11:55:00 am »
ISIS has very little to do with religion. It's a twisted death cult that take a perverse view of the Islamic faith and turns it into something barely recognisable. It's not so much ideology as social mechanisms like group sociology, violence, and alienation.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DvXwsxJuUvU
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Offline telekon

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Re: Stockholm Incident
« Reply #104 on: April 10, 2017, 01:49:39 pm »
Terrorism is a very complex issue, and to simplify it to the extent to say it's the Koran's fault is ludicrous.

Edit: the dude I was responding to either deleted his message or it was removed my moderators.
« Last Edit: April 10, 2017, 02:01:13 pm by telekon »
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Offline classycarra

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Re: Stockholm Incident
« Reply #105 on: April 10, 2017, 02:29:14 pm »
Terrorism is a very complex issue, and to simplify it to the extent to say it's the Koran's fault is ludicrous.

Edit: the dude I was responding to either deleted his message or it was removed my moderators.

To be fair though, noone has said that. And that's no more ludicrous than suggesting "ISIS has very little to do with religion"

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Re: Stockholm Incident
« Reply #106 on: April 10, 2017, 02:33:57 pm »
Terrorism is a very complex issue, and to simplify it to the extent to say it's the Koran's fault is ludicrous.

Edit: the dude I was responding to either deleted his message or it was removed my moderators.

To be fair though, noone has said that. And that's no more ludicrous than suggesting "ISIS has very little to do with religion"

Yes, the offending message was removed. As you were!
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Offline telekon

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Re: Stockholm Incident
« Reply #107 on: April 10, 2017, 02:56:47 pm »
"ISIS has very little to do with religion"

In interviews in Brussels and Paris, security officials, experts, social workers, relatives of Isis fighters and a 19-year-old woman who nearly travelled to Syria, all said the same thing. With young people in often marginal situations, in families racked by generational tensions, with ethnic or religious identity issues, facing personal or professional setbacks, surrounded by delinquency or borderline behaviour among peers, one problem crops up everywhere: gangs. Isis, to young men like those who killed a total of 161 people in the French and Belgian capitals, is “the biggest street gang of all”.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/mar/27/terrorism-isis-brussels-al-qaida-ever-present-threat-what-next

It’s “kind of an obvious point” that the group uses Islamic texts to justify its brutality. “But I want to answer a slightly different question, which is: If Islam did not exist … would a group like ISIS, with all the other realities as they are, exist today and do the same things?” “My answer to that hypothetical question is a resounding yes.”

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/07/isis-islam/397661/

Those are both good articles.
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Offline classycarra

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Re: Stockholm Incident
« Reply #108 on: April 10, 2017, 03:55:31 pm »
In interviews in Brussels and Paris, security officials, experts, social workers, relatives of Isis fighters and a 19-year-old woman who nearly travelled to Syria, all said the same thing. With young people in often marginal situations, in families racked by generational tensions, with ethnic or religious identity issues, facing personal or professional setbacks, surrounded by delinquency or borderline behaviour among peers, one problem crops up everywhere: gangs. Isis, to young men like those who killed a total of 161 people in the French and Belgian capitals, is “the biggest street gang of all”.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/mar/27/terrorism-isis-brussels-al-qaida-ever-present-threat-what-next

It’s “kind of an obvious point” that the group uses Islamic texts to justify its brutality. “But I want to answer a slightly different question, which is: If Islam did not exist … would a group like ISIS, with all the other realities as they are, exist today and do the same things?” “My answer to that hypothetical question is a resounding yes.”

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/07/isis-islam/397661/

Those are both good articles.

Thanks.

I don't entirely disagree with the hypothetical point made in the second quote, but just take issue with the point you initially made.

We can simultaneously be aware that there are a whole host of factors aside from religion that contribute to people sympathising with ISIS, while also accepting that suggesting ISIS has little to do with religion is almost preposterously over the top.

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Re: Stockholm Incident
« Reply #109 on: April 10, 2017, 04:01:17 pm »
Thanks.

I don't entirely disagree with the hypothetical point made in the second quote, but just take issue with the point you initially made.

We can simultaneously be aware that there are a whole host of factors aside from religion that contribute to people sympathising with ISIS, while also accepting that suggesting ISIS has little to do with religion is almost preposterously over the top.

Genuinely appreciate the fact that you took the time.

There is a spectrum here I suppose, personally (from studying anthropology) I'm usually in the structuralism end of that.
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Re: Stockholm Incident
« Reply #110 on: April 10, 2017, 08:18:52 pm »
It’s “kind of an obvious point” that the group uses Islamic texts to justify its brutality. “But I want to answer a slightly different question, which is: If Islam did not exist … would a group like ISIS, with all the other realities as they are, exist today and do the same things?” “My answer to that hypothetical question is a resounding yes.”

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/07/isis-islam/397661/

Of course there have been other groups that have used horrible brutality to further their cause. That's true of terrorists, insurgents and even criminal organisations. Each of those organisations has used brutality to further their cause and it stands to reason that you then look at the cause that was at the root of that brutality:

ETA, the PLO and the IRA for example were politically motivated - they used terrorism in order to bring their enemies to the negotiating table. If those political aims can be met then the need for violence receeds.

The mafia and other criminal gangs use violence for profit and control - it won't go away while there's enough money to be made to justify the risk of a violent beating, murder or imprisonment.

Groups like the KKK and other groups commit violence and murder on racial grounds.

If only there was a clue what the motivation behind the Islamic State was?... 
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Offline telekon

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Re: Stockholm Incident
« Reply #111 on: April 11, 2017, 09:30:57 am »
Of course there have been other groups that have used horrible brutality to further their cause. That's true of terrorists, insurgents and even criminal organisations. Each of those organisations has used brutality to further their cause and it stands to reason that you then look at the cause that was at the root of that brutality:

ETA, the PLO and the IRA for example were politically motivated - they used terrorism in order to bring their enemies to the negotiating table. If those political aims can be met then the need for violence receeds.

The mafia and other criminal gangs use violence for profit and control - it won't go away while there's enough money to be made to justify the risk of a violent beating, murder or imprisonment.

Groups like the KKK and other groups commit violence and murder on racial grounds.

If only there was a clue what the motivation behind the Islamic State was?...

Same as those above; territory, influence, power, resources. You're mistaking justification with motivation.

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Re: Stockholm Incident
« Reply #112 on: April 11, 2017, 10:19:20 am »
If only there was a clue what the motivation behind the Islamic State was?...


Obviously oversimplifying it here with my response but it's clearly power, religion is just the front of it.

They themselves say they want a "state" as their name implies, a caliphate I guess but Islam is just a tool in their conquest for power (obvs just my opinion, I don't claim to know their actual views) just like other religious fanatics they just use the religion as a tool for their own power grab, if they were true believes they would be making martyrs of themselves and going to their heaven instead of sending others in their place.

They just want power and land to rule, like any other tyrant before them, nothing new to see, just ou of place in modern times and hard to combat.

They turn people with faith which they themselves do not follow, they kill people in hugely graphic and brutal ways, it's rulling by power and fear, not through belief and whatnot.


They are scum and I for one am not gonna be twisted into hating a whole religion based on a group of nutters within it, not saying others in here do or don't but islamophobia is crealy evident in the world these days.

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Re: Stockholm Incident
« Reply #113 on: April 11, 2017, 11:34:21 am »
If only there was a clue what the motivation behind the Islamic State was?...

Ha, exactly right.
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Re: Stockholm Incident
« Reply #114 on: April 11, 2017, 11:38:25 am »
They are scum and I for one am not gonna be twisted into hating a whole religion based on a group of nutters within it, not saying others in here do or don't but islamophobia is crealy evident in the world these days.

You don't have to hate it or fear it to see that there's a problem within it.
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Offline Alan_X

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Re: Stockholm Incident
« Reply #115 on: April 11, 2017, 12:23:12 pm »

Obviously oversimplifying it here with my response but it's clearly power, religion is just the front of it.

They themselves say they want a "state" as their name implies, a caliphate I guess but Islam is just a tool in their conquest for power (obvs just my opinion, I don't claim to know their actual views) just like other religious fanatics they just use the religion as a tool for their own power grab, if they were true believes they would be making martyrs of themselves and going to their heaven instead of sending others in their place.

They just want power and land to rule, like any other tyrant before them, nothing new to see, just ou of place in modern times and hard to combat.

They turn people with faith which they themselves do not follow, they kill people in hugely graphic and brutal ways, it's rulling by power and fear, not through belief and whatnot.


They are scum and I for one am not gonna be twisted into hating a whole religion based on a group of nutters within it, not saying others in here do or don't but islamophobia is crealy evident in the world these days.


Sorry - there's no 'clearly' about it.

And it's interesting that you think there can be a driving force called 'islamophobia' which apparently is completely independent of power and influence but there can't be a radical belief in Islam.
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Re: Stockholm Incident
« Reply #116 on: April 11, 2017, 01:10:40 pm »
You don't have to hate it or fear it to see that there's a problem within it.

Thanks for starting this point. I was about to make a point about 'Islamaphobia', and search to see if there was another thread, but since it's here...

I find it so weird that people have taken this term up so unthinkingly. I can understand why that is, as a lot of people don't waste their time pondering things that I find interesting!

Islamaphobia is a term cooked up by right-wing Islamists and theocrats, designed purely to shut down debate about their religion. A religion isn't a person, and isn't subject to the same freedoms a person deserves. A lot of the people who cite Islamaphobia as a thing are then heard criticising the likes of Scientology,  Mormons or other organisations. That's inconsistent. Religions deserve scrutiny. Whether someone identifies as Rastafarian, Scientologist, Protestant, Mormon doesn't matter. None are more valid than the other.

Xenophobia and racism are perfectly reasonable terms to capture and describe discrimination faced by people. Criticising the crazy parts of religions, and Islam has many, is not a bad thing nor should the religions followers have a problem with it.

As an atheist, you could say I'm Islamaphobic - as much as you could say I'm a Catholophobe and Buddhaphobe too.

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Re: Stockholm Incident
« Reply #117 on: April 11, 2017, 01:18:55 pm »
Sorry - there's no 'clearly' about it.

And it's interesting that you think there can be a driving force called 'islamophobia' which apparently is completely independent of power and influence but there can't be a radical belief in Islam.

There can totally be a radical belief in Islam, but all I am saying is that there can be a radical belief in...anything really.

Radicals are radicals, you can have radicals in any religion, social group or whatever, Islam is just the main one at the moment, I've seen radicals in ETA about the separation and there are Radicals in Christianity and even Buddhism.


All I am saying is religion is just a tool to these people, it's all about interpretation after all as there are most certainly gay Muslims who have their faith and so on for example yet you'd ask some people and they'd say all muslim wanna kill gays, hate women, want a caliphate, etc...
 
I'm not a religion person in any way shape or form so probs not best placed to talk about it as no religion makes sense to me but all I'm saying is it's weird seeing them all painted with same brush as a violent religion due to certain beliefs or quotes from their holy book, you can pick any Abraghamic religion and see violent quotes and weird stuff in them, they were written during different times after all and it's all about how the end "uyser" interprets it
« Last Edit: April 11, 2017, 01:21:14 pm by PhilV »

Offline Alan_X

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Re: Stockholm Incident
« Reply #118 on: April 11, 2017, 01:29:37 pm »
All I am saying is religion is just a tool to these people...

And all I'm saying is that you have no basis for saying that. These people are explicit about what they are doing and why. They are acting totally in accordance with their stated aims and their behaviour doesn't make sense if all they're after is power and influence. Especially the current spate of ISIS inspired lone wolf attacks that are simply designed to kill people with no demands, no control and no benefit in terms of 'power and influence'.

You say that you aren't religious and confess you don't understand the religious mindset so I'd suggest you do a bit more in depth reading. Just because you can't conceive what it's like to be a religious fundamentalist doesn't mean that radicalised religious fundamentalist must be faking it.

And differentiate between radical religion and wider religious belief. The point about radical religion that differentiates it from other extreme views is that radical religion is literally unquestionable. If the instruction (however mangled) comes 'from God' it can't be argued with. Faith requires unquestioning obedience.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2017, 01:37:01 pm by Alan_X »
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Offline jooneyisdagod

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Re: Stockholm Incident
« Reply #119 on: April 11, 2017, 01:35:09 pm »
In interviews in Brussels and Paris, security officials, experts, social workers, relatives of Isis fighters and a 19-year-old woman who nearly travelled to Syria, all said the same thing. With young people in often marginal situations, in families racked by generational tensions, with ethnic or religious identity issues, facing personal or professional setbacks, surrounded by delinquency or borderline behaviour among peers, one problem crops up everywhere: gangs. Isis, to young men like those who killed a total of 161 people in the French and Belgian capitals, is “the biggest street gang of all”.

https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2016/mar/27/terrorism-isis-brussels-al-qaida-ever-present-threat-what-next

It’s “kind of an obvious point” that the group uses Islamic texts to justify its brutality. “But I want to answer a slightly different question, which is: If Islam did not exist … would a group like ISIS, with all the other realities as they are, exist today and do the same things?” “My answer to that hypothetical question is a resounding yes.”

https://www.theatlantic.com/international/archive/2015/07/isis-islam/397661/

Those are both good articles.

They're both excellent pieces, but this one I think makes the most cogent case I've come across thus far.

https://www.theatlantic.com/magazine/archive/2015/03/what-isis-really-wants/384980/


Edit: I must confess I thought the Atlantic piece was a different one based on its headline. I have to take my assessment back on that one having re-read it. It simply presents one person's view of ISIS and that view is tangential to the question at hand.
« Last Edit: April 11, 2017, 01:45:37 pm by jooneyisdagloomy »
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