Author Topic: Making A Murderer - A Netflix Documentary Series - MAY CONTAIN SPOILERS  (Read 68959 times)

Offline saoirse08

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,856
  • TRUTH. JUSTICE. ACCOUNTABILITY.
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/qxgbdYaR_KQ" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/qxgbdYaR_KQ</a>


I saw it suggested in the Awesome Documentary Thread that this Netflix documentary series - 10, one hour episodes - should have its own thread.

*May contain spoilers for those who have not watched*


I don't have much time to comment further today, but I will say this is one of the most compelling and absorbing real life crime documentaries I've ever watched. In many ways, it is similar to the documentary series Death on the Stairs or The Jinx. But this is a far more forensic look not only at an original miscarriage of justice, but at a second case - the murder of Teresa Halbach - in which Steven Avery (the victim of the earlier miscarriage of justice) was strongly suspected of murder by Manitowoc County Sheriff's Dept. To complicate matters, at the time Steven Avery was arrested and charged with the murder of  Teresa Halbach, he had begun a $36 million civil lawsuit against Manitowoc County for his earlier wrongful conviction.

Then things get really murky...

Anyway, I'm sure - chiefly due to this documentary series - this will become a high profile case. Perhaps we can use this thread for anything relating to the case and the documentary series in general.
« Last Edit: January 3, 2016, 07:54:38 pm by Rhi »
“The socialism I believe in is everyone working for each other, everyone having a share of the rewards. It’s the way I see football, the way I see life.”

"The old is dying and the new cannot be born; in this interregnum a great variety of morbid symptoms appear."

Offline mazlo123

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,084
  • My kind of monster.
Re: Making A Murderer - A Netflix Documentary Series
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2015, 01:40:15 pm »
<a href="https://www.youtube.com/v/qxgbdYaR_KQ" target="_blank" rel="noopener noreferrer" class="bbc_link bbc_flash_disabled new_win">https://www.youtube.com/v/qxgbdYaR_KQ</a>

Watched it all the day it came out, couldn't stop once I started. I've always found doc's like this fascinating (Serial, The West Memphis Three, The Jinx etc) and Making a Murderer is up there with the best.

Crazy Story and truly scary what can happen if you have a shit lawyer in the states and the authorities are out to get you.

Spoiler
The biggest victim in all of this is his nephew Brendan, I am not sure of the Steve's innocence but the nephew was royally fucked over
[close]
« Last Edit: December 29, 2015, 01:42:32 pm by mazlo123 »
They should go and feast on another dead corpse this one is alive and kicking and it will bite you fucking head off.

Offline Millie

  • Athens Airport Queen. Dude, never mind my car, where's my hand sanitiser?!
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 13,058
  • IFWT
Re: Making A Murderer - A Netflix Documentary Series
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2015, 07:46:08 am »
Watched the first episode last night - compelling viewing
"If you can't say anything nice, don't say nothing at all"  Thumper (1942)

Justice for the 96

I'm a Believer

Offline scouser4eva

  • but is Eva4Scouser? Wants an old willy
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 16,053
  • " god wanted west ham to win but gerrard said no "
Re: Making A Murderer - A Netflix Documentary Series
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2015, 08:40:06 am »
Watched this all yesterday, have to say one of the best documentaries i have ever watched completely compelling watch !

Offline Stevie-A

  • Castration Obsessed Latin Grammar Pedant
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 1,770
  • The Bronte ten bob eyes boxing club.
Re: Making A Murderer - A Netflix Documentary Series
« Reply #4 on: December 30, 2015, 09:54:40 am »
Two episodes in, and utterly riveted. I don't normally go for crime docs, but this is a real 'shout at the telly' series.

Offline HighSix

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,565
Re: Making A Murderer - A Netflix Documentary Series
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2015, 12:12:45 pm »
Great watch. So far seems less agenda driven like Jinx rather than Serial which I prefer with these.

Online stoa

  • way. Daydream. Quite partial to a good plonking.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 16,451
  • Five+One Times, Baby...
Re: Making A Murderer - A Netflix Documentary Series
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2015, 04:22:59 pm »
Crazy Story and truly scary what can happen if you have a shit lawyer in the states and the authorities are out to get you.

Spoiler
The biggest victim in all of this is his nephew Brendan, I am not sure of the Steve's innocence but the nephew was royally fucked over
[close]

I wouldn't necessarily say that it's about a shit lawyer or the authorities being out to get you. I just feel that some of the flaws in the whole justice system (not only in the states) are exposed in this. One certainly is that a lot of the people in the system are mainly focussed on getting a conviction. Whether it's the truth seems to be secondary quite a few times in this. I cannot imagine, that this is just a one off. It happens elsewhere and countless cases where innocent people have spent time in jail for something they've not done are proof to that. As a layman in terms of law to me it looks that those flaws are exacerbated by the US-system and how difficult it is to get another hearing of a case that's already been dealt with (might be wrong though).

Spoiler
I would agree with the assessment that Brendan is one of the biggest victims in this, no matter if they've killed Teresa Halbach or not. The other victims (apart from the Halbach-familiy) I'd say are Steven Avery's parents, because you can clearly see what impact the whole affair has on them and they do come across as decent people.

Having watched the whole series, I still find it hard to come to a conclusion. It's just that even though it's a well made series a lot of things have been left out and that makes it difficult.
[close]

Offline gerrardsarmy

  • Wouldn't say no to a spanking
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,620
Re: Making A Murderer - A Netflix Documentary Series
« Reply #7 on: December 30, 2015, 04:50:31 pm »
I see claims that a lot was left out but have seen no real evidence of this. I thought the film makers did a great job of letting the story tell itself.
“I always think that there’s something unpleasant lurking in people who avoid drinking, gambling, table-talk and pretty women. People like that are either sick or secretly hate their fellow-men.”

Online stoa

  • way. Daydream. Quite partial to a good plonking.
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 16,451
  • Five+One Times, Baby...
Re: Making A Murderer - A Netflix Documentary Series
« Reply #8 on: December 30, 2015, 05:20:09 pm »
I see claims that a lot was left out but have seen no real evidence of this. I thought the film makers did a great job of letting the story tell itself.

How could they not have left anything out? From a quick look 59 witnesses were heard in Steven Avery's trial, it took several weeks. The series has ten episodes that are roughly an hour long each. The maths is pretty clear on that without even considering that they also covered Brendan Dassey's case and Avery's first case. When I'm saying they left stuff out, I don't mean it as criticism. It's just the nature of the beast. At the same time, it makes it hard to draw any real conclusions about the case in general...

Offline gerrardsarmy

  • Wouldn't say no to a spanking
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,620
Re: Making A Murderer - A Netflix Documentary Series
« Reply #9 on: December 30, 2015, 09:15:40 pm »
How could they not have left anything out? From a quick look 59 witnesses were heard in Steven Avery's trial, it took several weeks. The series has ten episodes that are roughly an hour long each. The maths is pretty clear on that without even considering that they also covered Brendan Dassey's case and Avery's first case. When I'm saying they left stuff out, I don't mean it as criticism. It's just the nature of the beast. At the same time, it makes it hard to draw any real conclusions about the case in general...

Sorry, I misunderstood you. The film makers had nearly 700 hours of footage, so obviously I see the maths behind condensing that into 10 one hour episodes.

I thought you were getting at the deliberate leaving out of facts in the documentary - something I've seen pop up on the internet.

“I always think that there’s something unpleasant lurking in people who avoid drinking, gambling, table-talk and pretty women. People like that are either sick or secretly hate their fellow-men.”

Offline WAQS

  • LYRIQAL
  • Anny Roader
  • ****
  • Posts: 352
Re: Making A Murderer - A Netflix Documentary Series
« Reply #10 on: December 30, 2015, 11:44:53 pm »
Surely evidence was planted? The key + the blood in the car just doesn't sit right with me.

Offline Tonyh8su

  • Tonyign0r35u
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,761
  • YNWA
Re: Making A Murderer - A Netflix Documentary Series
« Reply #11 on: December 31, 2015, 04:03:02 am »
Surely evidence was planted? The key + the blood in the car just doesn't sit right with me.


Just literally got done watching it, will probably have a lengthier post about it at another time.

Spoiler
I'm not sure of Steve's innocence or guilt but I'm certain the key was planted. What doesn't sit right with me more than anything though is the tampered blood sample. The seal has been broken and someone has used a needle to extract blood. HUGE red flag. Like I said I'm not sure if Steve is innocent or guilty right now but I know that that was amazing film making and I am really angry after watching it.
[close]

Offline HighSix

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,565
Re: Making A Murderer - A Netflix Documentary Series
« Reply #12 on: December 31, 2015, 06:13:18 pm »
Maybe its because I watched it half asleep last night but loved the kids 'Kiss The Girls' response when the prosecutor was hammering him with the questions. Was so out of character from his other vague mumbly answers & shut the prosecutor right up.
 

Offline Phil M

  • YNWA
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 58,982
  • Bravery is believing in yourself" Rafael Benitez
    • I coulda been a contenda.....
Re: Making A Murderer - A Netflix Documentary Series
« Reply #13 on: January 1, 2016, 03:50:51 am »
For those who have watched it. This is a very interesting read.

It's true to say that if Shankly had told us to invade Poland we'd be queuing up 10 deep all the way from Anfield to the Pier Head.

Offline Kashinoda

  • More broken biscuits than made of crisps
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,934
  • ....mmm
Re: Making A Murderer - A Netflix Documentary Series
« Reply #14 on: January 1, 2016, 09:12:50 am »
Watched 8 hours, exhausted in every way possible.

The internet is already having a field day with this, going to be a long few years ahead me thinks.
:D

Offline gerrardsarmy

  • Wouldn't say no to a spanking
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 3,620
Re: Making A Murderer - A Netflix Documentary Series
« Reply #15 on: January 1, 2016, 10:56:57 am »
For those who have watched it. This is a very interesting read.


Spoiler

— Past criminal activity also included threatening a female relative at gunpoint.

This is in the documentary. Episode one.

— In the months leading up to Halbach’s disappearance, Avery had called Auto Trader several times and always specifically requested Halbach to come out and take the photos.

She had been to the Avery property six times between June 2005 and October 31st.

Quote
"Angela Schuster, who was an operations supervisor at the magazine, testified earlier Tuesday that Halbach had gone to the Avery property six times from June 2005 to Halloween to take pictures of cars, a trailer and a sports utility vehicle."

Dawn Pliszka did testify before the jury that Avery called her on Oct. 31, 2005, to request the photographer who had been out to the property previously.

Is it out of the realms of possibility for him to request the same photographer as had been there previously? I don't think so.

Source: http://chippewa.com/news/victim-s-cousin-tells-of-finding-vehicle-in-avery-salvage/article_fb32d5b4-4569-53de-bb0c-c6e2beccd56e.html

As for the towel incident -- that came up due to testimony from Dawn Pliszka who was an Auto Trader receptionist and wasn't admissible in the trial. And it wasn't left out of the trial because it was too inflammatory - it was inadmissible because it was too sketchy.

Quote
Manitowoc County Circuit Judge Patrick Willis would not allow Dawn Pliszka, an Auto Trader receptionist at the time, to testify about one of Halbach’s previous encounters with Avery.

“She had stated to me that he had come out in a towel,’’ Pliszka said while the jury was outside of the courtroom. “I just said, ‘Really?’ and then she said, ‘Yeah,’ and laughed and said kinda ‘Ew.’’’

Willis said he could not allow the testimony because the date wasn’t clear and few details were known about the alleged encounter.

Source: http://chippewa.com/news/victim-s-cousin-tells-of-finding-vehicle-in-avery-salvage/article_fb32d5b4-4569-53de-bb0c-c6e2beccd56e.html

If it is true, it's certianly strange. But it doesn't sound to me like he was "obsessed" with her.

— On the day that Halbach went missing, Avery had called her three times, twice from a *67 number to hide his identity.

Teresa called Avery and requested him to call her back, so I assume that accounts for one of the calls. (From Day 2 Transcripts from Dassey Trial)

Quote
"Hello. This is Teresa with AutoTrader Magazine. I'm the photographer, and just giving you a call to let you know that I could come out there today, urn, in the afternoon. It would will probably be around two o'clock or even a little later. But, urn, if you could please give me a call back and let me know if that will work for you, because I don't have your address or anything, so I can't stop by without getting the -- a call back from you. And my cell phone is 737-4731. Again, it's Teresa, 920-737-4731. Thank you."

The star 67 calls are interesting. It appears the prosecution used this as evidence that he "lured" Teresa to the property under a false name (The name of his sister - who the van belonged to).

Source - http://host.madison.com/news/local/calls-made-from-avery-s-phone-to-halbach-prosecutors-say/article_e120a640-3769-5d22-b7b8-3bf2bdff3e7f.html

If that is the case, it makes no sense to request her in the first place if he was then going to hide his identity in order to kill her, everyone knew full well that she was going to be there.

— The bullet with Halbach’s DNA on it came from Avery’s gun, which always hung above his bed.

I did read somewhere that the bullet was proved to be from a 22 but that it couldn't be traced to Steven's gun specifically. There were other people on the property who also owned 22's. I'll try and find links.

Secondly, this bullet was found after the 'confession' of Brendan Dassey, in suspicious circumstances, by a person who wasn't supposed to be involved in the investigation. And the DNA evidence on it would have normally been inconclusive because the analyst botched the controls.

— Here’s the piece of evidence that was presented at trial but not in the series that I find most convincing: In Dassey’s illegally obtained statement, Dassey stated that he helped Avery moved the RAV4 into the junkyard and that Avery had lifted the hood and removed the battery cable. Even if you believe that the blood in Halbach’s car was planted by the cops (as I do), there was also non-blood DNA evidence on the hood latch. I don’t believe the police would plant — or know to plant — that evidence.

As for the 'sweat' DNA -- this was found AFTER the testimony of Brendan Dassey.

Quote
Kratz: "Was Teresa's car hood opened up by Uncle Steve as Brendan says? Well, on Aprll 3, again, as a result of Brendan's statements, law enforcement swabs -- they take a Q-tip and -- and they swab the hood latch, reaching up underneath the hood, just to see if we can get a a DNA profile. Sherry Culhane does. She gets a full profile that's Steven Avery's sweat. Steven Avery's sweat is found on the hood latch, just like should happen if Brendan is to believed that Uncle Steve went under the hood."

SOURCE: Brendan Dassey's Trial, Day 1 - https://www.dropbox.com/s/c9ow4lwzec007mi/dassey_4_16_07.pdf?dl=0

And this piece of information was also first provided to Dassey through Fassbender and Weigert and NOT Brendan.

Quote
F: OK, what else did he do, he did somethin' else, you need to tell us what he did, after that car is parked there. It's extremely important. (pause) Before you guys leave that car.
B: The he left the gun in the car.
F: That's not what I'm thinkin' about. He did something to that car. He took the plates and he, I believe he did something else in that car. (pause).
B: I don't know.
F: OK. Did he, did he, did he go and look at the engine, did he raise the hood at all or anything like that? To do something to the car?
B: Yeah.
F: What was that? (pause)
W: What did he do, Brendan?
W: It's OK, what did he do?
F: What did he do under the hood, if that's what he did? (pause)
B: I don't know what he did, but I know he went under.
F: He did raise the hood? (Brendan nods "yes") You remember that?
B: Yeah.

SOURCE: http://convolutedbrian.com.s3.amazonaws.com/dassey/01Mar2006/01Mar2006Transcript.pdf

OR

https://www.dropbox.com/s/uu07xwofjc4zc37/Transcript%20-%20March%201%2C%202006.pdf?dl=0
(PAGE 78)

Frankly, any DNA evidence that is claimed to be found is highly compromised in my opinion. This apparent DNA on the hood was found in April -- months after the car was found.

Quote
According to trial testimony it was William Tyson, patrol sergeant with Calumet County Sheriff's Dept, who took the swab from the hood latch, with Deputy Jeremy Hawkins assisting. Tyson testified that "on April 3 we [Deputy Hawkins and myself] were requested to go to where we had stored Theresa's vehicle. nvestigator Wiegert and Agent Fassbender had requested that we do DNA swabs of both door handles, interior and exterior, as well as the hood latch to the vehicle, and the battery cables..."

SOURCE: Brendan Dassey's Trial, Day 2 - Pages 25, 125, 144 - https://www.dropbox.com/s/s4jyyith9lwpstx/dassey_4_17_07.pdf?dl=0

And this DNA evidence was found. But no fingerprints were found in any part of the car???
[close]
“I always think that there’s something unpleasant lurking in people who avoid drinking, gambling, table-talk and pretty women. People like that are either sick or secretly hate their fellow-men.”

Offline UntouchableLuis

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,725
Re: Making A Murderer - A Netflix Documentary Series
« Reply #16 on: January 1, 2016, 05:07:12 pm »
Seen 9 episodes so one more left but:

Spoiler
I just cannot believe a jury would find Dassey guilty on those 3 counts. There was no DNA evidence linking him to it so how can they decide he did all that? Crazy.

I think what did it for Steven was A) people were biased against him anyway and B) The fact that the forensic expert said there was no way the blood could have been planted.

I felt sick when his verdict was read out anyway.

[close]
"IT'S ENDED.....THE EUROPEAN CUP IS RETURNING TO ENGLAND AND TO ANFIELD."

Offline Alan_X

  • WUM. 'twatito' - The Cat Herding Firm But Fair Voice Of Reason (Except when he's got a plank up his arse). Gimme some skin, priest! Has a general dislike for Elijah Wood. Clearly cannot fill even a thong! RAWK Resident Muppet. Has a crush o
  • RAWK Staff
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 53,384
  • Come on you fucking red men!!!
  • Super Title: This is super!
Re: Making A Murderer - A Netflix Documentary Series
« Reply #17 on: January 1, 2016, 05:14:49 pm »
Halfway through - will read the thread later but this is absolutely staggering stuff. Just finished episode 5 and onto 6.
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
09/03/2011 08:04
Give a man a mask and he will tell the truth, Give a man a user name and he will act like a total twat.
Its all about winning shiny things.

Offline HighSix

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,565
Re: Making A Murderer - A Netflix Documentary Series
« Reply #18 on: January 1, 2016, 05:25:36 pm »
Spoiler
'Playing with the cat & threw it over a fire' as the documentary put it actually means 'soaked it in petrol & threw the cat on the fire'.  :o

Cant be doing with anyone that does that for fun. Hope he is innocent & stays in jail! Cat Karma bitch.

The details in the link above certainly are very damning. The police should have done more actual police work rather than adding their own evidence as a short cut.
[close]
« Last Edit: January 1, 2016, 05:32:44 pm by HighSix »

Offline FlashGordon

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,727
  • RAWK Cheltenham 2021 Champion Tipster*
Re: Making A Murderer - A Netflix Documentary Series
« Reply #19 on: January 1, 2016, 06:23:02 pm »
Spoiler
'Playing with the cat & threw it over a fire' as the documentary put it actually means 'soaked it in petrol & threw the cat on the fire'.  :o

Cant be doing with anyone that does that for fun. Hope he is innocent & stays in jail! Cat Karma bitch.

The details in the link above certainly are very damning. The police should have done more actual police work rather than adding their own evidence as a short cut.
[close]

Spoiler
Yes what he did to the cat was absolutely sick and disgusting but he's obviously not fully there upstairs. I'm not trying to excuse him for what he did to the cat but for you to come out and say you hope an innocent man spends the rest of his life in jail because of it is actually pretty sick and disgusting on your part. Shame on you.
[close]
So bloody what? If you watch football to be absolutely miserable then go watch cricket.

Offline FlashGordon

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,727
  • RAWK Cheltenham 2021 Champion Tipster*
Re: Making A Murderer - A Netflix Documentary Series
« Reply #20 on: January 1, 2016, 06:24:41 pm »
Spoiler
I can't believe there hasn't been more made of this, I may be a little swayed by the portrayal in the documentary but I find it absolutely absurd that you could convict him or his nephew on the evidence provided.
[close]
« Last Edit: January 1, 2016, 08:29:54 pm by Red85 »
So bloody what? If you watch football to be absolutely miserable then go watch cricket.

Offline Phil M

  • YNWA
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 58,982
  • Bravery is believing in yourself" Rafael Benitez
    • I coulda been a contenda.....
Re: Making A Murderer - A Netflix Documentary Series
« Reply #21 on: January 1, 2016, 06:33:11 pm »
I can't believe there hasn't been more made of this...

Spoilers required!
It's true to say that if Shankly had told us to invade Poland we'd be queuing up 10 deep all the way from Anfield to the Pier Head.

Offline HighSix

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,565
Re: Making A Murderer - A Netflix Documentary Series
« Reply #22 on: January 1, 2016, 06:36:21 pm »
Spoiler
Yes what he did to the cat was absolutely sick and disgusting but he's obviously not fully there upstairs. I'm not trying to excuse him for what he did to the cat but for you to come out and say you hope an innocent man spends the rest of his life in jail because of it is actually pretty sick and disgusting on your part. Shame on you.
[close]

Spoiler
Was only half joking but dont believe he is innocent reading some of the other details round the case, his purchases, recent history with the lady & relationship he held over the kid.

After watching it could not believe both were found guilty but there is alot around that is hard to explain Avery not committing the crime & more of the eyeopening details before seem to fit. If the police knew all the details & the guys history can kind of see why they set him up.
[close]
« Last Edit: January 1, 2016, 06:39:05 pm by HighSix »

Offline saoirse08

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 2,856
  • TRUTH. JUSTICE. ACCOUNTABILITY.
Re: Making A Murderer - A Netflix Documentary Series
« Reply #23 on: January 1, 2016, 07:42:50 pm »
For me it is the treatment of

Spoiler
Brendan Dassey that is the most appalling aspect of this case. That's even before discussing Steven Avery's earlier miscarriage of justice. Where do you even start about the violations of his rights? At the time of the crime, he was a sixteen-year-old lad with obvious special educational needs. If you spent five minutes with this boy, it would be obvious that when being interviewed he would require an appropriate adult of some sort. He literally didn't know the extent of the shit he was in. After confessing to Teresa's murder, he thought he was going to be able to return to class, for fuck's sake. The cops knew this and played upon the fact that he 'isn't all there'. His public defender, and I use the term 'defender' quite wrongly here, screwed him over big time. It was almost as if he colluded with the prosecution. I've never wanted to punch somebody so much over the past week more than Len Kachinsky, and his big smirking fucking gob. The man is the living embodiment of Fargo's Jerry Lundegaard. William H Macey is nailed on to play him in any future film! As for his investigator, fuck me! He and the cops coerced a confession from Brendan.

And this is what fucked up the whole case for me. So desperate were they to get Avery back in jail, they exploited a vulnerable young man. Without any forensic evidence and with an inconsistent* (to say the least) story about what really happened (and seemingly unaware about what was happening to him) Brendan was convicted.

*inconsistent - a word neither Brendan or his ma appeared to know the meaning of!
[close]


Anyway, be interesting to see how all this develops. It is an incredible piece of work. The filmmakers found a cast of real people that could have fallen straight from the pages of a Coen brothers script. Incredible series.
« Last Edit: January 1, 2016, 07:54:11 pm by saoirse08 »
“The socialism I believe in is everyone working for each other, everyone having a share of the rewards. It’s the way I see football, the way I see life.”

"The old is dying and the new cannot be born; in this interregnum a great variety of morbid symptoms appear."

Offline rafathegaffa83

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 42,108
  • Dutch Class
Re: Making A Murderer - A Netflix Documentary Series
« Reply #24 on: January 1, 2016, 07:51:40 pm »
Spoiler
Not sure whether Avery is guilty or not, but I cannot believe more wasn't made of her ex-boyfriend having access to her voicemail, the patrol officer reading the plate number to dispatch and the lack of her DNA on Avery's property or her own car key no less. And granted both Dassey and Avery aren't the brightest, but I agree with a few sentiments that suggest it to be contradictory to view Avery as a criminal mastermind capable of cleaning all DNA evidence from his home, while being enough of an idiot to leave the victim's car on his property, which included an auto salvage yard with a crusher.
[close]

For me it is the treatment of

Spoiler
Brendan Dassey that is most appalling aspect of this case. That's even before discussing Steven Avery's earlier miscarriage of justice. Where do you even start about the violations of his rights? At the time of the crime, he was a sixteen-year-old lad with obvious special educational needs. If you spent five minutes with this boy, it would be obvious that when being interviewed he would require an appropriate adult of some sort. He literally didn't know the extent of the shit he was in. After confessing to Teresa's murder, he thought he was going to be able to return to class, for fuck's sake. The cops knew this and played upon the fact that he 'isn't all there'. His public defender, and I use the term 'defender' quite wrongly here, screwed him over big time. It was almost as if he colluded with the prosecution. I've never wanted to punch somebody so much over the past week more than Len Kachinsky, and his big smirking fucking gob. The man is the living embodiment of Fargo's Jerry Lundegaard. William H Macey is nailed on to play him in any future film! As for his investigator, fuck me! He and the cops coerced a confession from Brendan.

And this is what fucked up the whole case for me. So desperate were they to get Avery back in jail, they exploited a vulnerable young man. Without any forensic evidence and with an inconsistent* (to say the least) story about what really happened (and seemingly unaware about what was happening to him) Brendan was convicted.

*inconsistent - a word neither Brendan or his ma appeared to know the meaning of!
[close]


Anyway, be interesting to see how all this develops. It is an incredible piece of work. The filmmakers found a cast of real people that could have fallen straight from the pages of a Coen brothers script. Incredible series.


Completely agree there. .
« Last Edit: January 1, 2016, 07:55:45 pm by rafathegaffa83 »

Offline Kashinoda

  • More broken biscuits than made of crisps
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,934
  • ....mmm
Re: Making A Murderer - A Netflix Documentary Series *Please use spoilers*
« Reply #25 on: January 1, 2016, 08:23:10 pm »
I can't believe there hasn't been more made of this, I may be a little swayed by the portrayal in the documentary but I find it absolutely absurd that you could convict him or his nephew on the evidence provided.

Spoiler
'Beyond reasonable doubt'

I don't see how anyone can make a guilty call without doubts on this, it's crazy.

Though plenty is being made of this as more and more people finish it
[close]
:D

Offline FlashGordon

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,727
  • RAWK Cheltenham 2021 Champion Tipster*
Re: Making A Murderer - A Netflix Documentary Series
« Reply #26 on: January 1, 2016, 08:30:25 pm »
Spoilers required!

Sorry post edited.
So bloody what? If you watch football to be absolutely miserable then go watch cricket.

Offline FlashGordon

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,727
  • RAWK Cheltenham 2021 Champion Tipster*
Re: Making A Murderer - A Netflix Documentary Series
« Reply #27 on: January 1, 2016, 08:39:42 pm »
Spoiler
Was only half joking but dont believe he is innocent reading some of the other details round the case, his purchases, recent history with the lady & relationship he held over the kid.

After watching it could not believe both were found guilty but there is alot around that is hard to explain Avery not committing the crime & more of the eyeopening details before seem to fit. If the police knew all the details & the guys history can kind of see why they set him up.
[close]

Spoiler
I think it was gerrardsarmy that posted a few rebuttals to some of those claims earlier on. There was no way they had enough to convict either of them. Even if he actually did do it I still don't think they should just be allowed to plant evidence to get a conviction, if that was the case then where is the line drawn. This whole thing has made me feel very uneasy and I have lost a lot of trust in the system but maybe I was naive before I just don't understand how a jury of his peers thought there was enough evidence to return a guilty verdict. A lot of that evidence you refer to was inadmissible in court anyway so the jury never heard it. The man got stitched up whether he committed the crime or not.
[close]
So bloody what? If you watch football to be absolutely miserable then go watch cricket.

Offline RMG

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 7,105
  • YNWA
Re: Making A Murderer - A Netflix Documentary Series *Please use spoilers*
« Reply #28 on: January 1, 2016, 08:43:58 pm »
Spoiler
I think it was gerrardsarmy that posted a few rebuttals to some of those claims earlier on. There was no way they had enough to convict either of them. Even if he actually did do it I still don't think they should just be allowed to plant evidence to get a conviction, if that was the case then where is the line drawn. This whole thing has made me feel very uneasy and I have lost a lot of trust in the system but maybe I was naive before I just don't understand how a jury of his peers thought there was enough evidence to return a guilty verdict. A lot of that evidence you refer to was inadmissible in court anyway so the jury never heard it. The man got stitched up whether he committed the crime or not.
[close]

Spoiler
Was it not down to the blood in the car and the DNA on the key (which I read the other day was a spare key) those blood marks on the car were extremely suspicious and surely if you were committing such a crime and cleaning your bedroom and garage then you'd clean the car as well.

It's the fact the people who shouldn't have been nowhere near the case were always present.

Brendan is the most heartbreaking of the two. How he has got nowhere so far despite all the video evidence is ridiculous.
[close]

Offline FlashGordon

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,727
  • RAWK Cheltenham 2021 Champion Tipster*
Re: Making A Murderer - A Netflix Documentary Series *Please use spoilers*
« Reply #29 on: January 1, 2016, 09:11:02 pm »

Spoiler
Genuinely the first time I've felt this passionate about something in a very long time. I'm a bit trepidatious to really dive head first in to a tirade because it feels like there has to be something very conclusive that was left out of the documentary or else this really is the greatest stitch up of all time.

I know this might sound a bit strange but for a few minutes just forget about whether or not he actually committed the crime (personally I don't think he did).

Firstly, The defense was based on accusing the police of planting evidence against a man who would of stood to have made millions and millions of dollars had he been around to contest an earlier lawsuit he filed against them. Now you're telling me that the jury were prepared to say beyond any reasonable doubt that the police had no incentive to plant evidence on this man. This is a small town in Wisconsin that would have been feeling the effects of the lawsuit for years to come in budgetary constraints. The police had every incentive to insure that Steven Avery would not be around to contest his lawsuit.

Secondly, Officers who were named individually in the lawsuit were still working in the Manitowoc County Police and were said to have a conflict of interest in the case so were removed from the investigation. Yet it was said officers who were actually the ones who found the key bits of evidence and I use that term very lightly. These officers would have lost everything if Avery was to contest his lawsuit and had every incentive to find a way to bury him. Now maybe these police officers were genuinely ok people who just made a mistake the first time round, but you could definitely see why they would be driven to do something so drastic as planting evidence the second time round.

Thirdly, most of there case relied on the statements of the nephew which were proven time and again to be coerced from him by highly experienced and skilled interrogators. They had no real physical evidence at all until they started to fabricate Brendan's story and then go back to specific locations to investigate/plant evidence in those very specific areas. There is no way the Avery's had the means and the capabilities to clean up Steven's trailer in 5 days to leave no trace of anything if what they say Brendan said happened.

I could write about this for hours because there are just so many inconsistencies but I actually get angry when I sit down to think about it all. I just hope that this documentary has the desired effect and puts an international spotlight on this case. I really don't think this could happen in any other western country other than America. It's beyond belief.
[close]
So bloody what? If you watch football to be absolutely miserable then go watch cricket.

Offline FlashGordon

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,727
  • RAWK Cheltenham 2021 Champion Tipster*
Re: Making A Murderer - A Netflix Documentary Series *Please use spoilers*
« Reply #30 on: January 1, 2016, 09:15:12 pm »
Spoiler
Was it not down to the blood in the car and the DNA on the key (which I read the other day was a spare key) those blood marks on the car were extremely suspicious and surely if you were committing such a crime and cleaning your bedroom and garage then you'd clean the car as well.

It's the fact the people who shouldn't have been nowhere near the case were always present.

Brendan is the most heartbreaking of the two. How he has got nowhere so far despite all the video evidence is ridiculous.
[close]

Spoiler
They also had a car compacter in the yard. Surely that is your first thought straight away after you do the deed? If the murder was pre-meditated like the prosecutor made it out to be. There's holes everywhere in the story.

I actually feel a bit angry at the family of the woman and upset for them at the same time. They must know that Steven Avery didn't really kill their daughter/slister.
[close]
So bloody what? If you watch football to be absolutely miserable then go watch cricket.

Offline HighSix

  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,565
Re: Making A Murderer - A Netflix Documentary Series
« Reply #31 on: January 1, 2016, 09:20:02 pm »
Spoiler
Not sure whether Avery is guilty or not, but I cannot believe more wasn't made of her ex-boyfriend having access to her voicemail, the patrol officer reading the plate number to dispatch and the lack of her DNA on Avery's property or her own car key no less. And granted both Dassey and Avery aren't the brightest, but I agree with a few sentiments that suggest it to be contradictory to view Avery as a criminal mastermind capable of cleaning all DNA evidence from his home, while being enough of an idiot to leave the victim's car on his property, which included an auto salvage yard with a crusher.
[close]


Spoiler
Depends how you look at it... An area so big with so many cars on private land is a pretty decent short term hiding place until it can be crushed at a later date. Would be  risky to crush it then & there as the first place police would inspect on the compound. Its an obvious place to claim someone else could dump as well with no fence & many entrances.

Would be interesting to know if the search party had asked Steven if they could look around rather than a family member what the answer would be. The two searchers got ridiculous lucky either way unless they had a tip off. 
[close]

« Last Edit: January 1, 2016, 09:31:04 pm by HighSix »

Offline FlashGordon

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,727
  • RAWK Cheltenham 2021 Champion Tipster*
Re: Making A Murderer - A Netflix Documentary Series
« Reply #32 on: January 1, 2016, 09:32:13 pm »
Spoiler
Depends how you look at it... An area so big with so many cars on private land is a pretty decent short term hiding place until it can be crushed at a later date. Would be pretty risky to crush it then & there as the first place police would inspect on the compound. Its a pretty obvious place to claim someone else could dump as well with no fence & many entrances.

Would be interesting to know if the search party had asked Steven if they could look around rather than a family member what the answer would be. The two searchers got ridiculous lucky either way unless they had a tip off. 
[close]

Spoiler
They had to have been tipped off? Why were they the only search party given a camera that morning? Which happened to be the housemates personal camera. Even the route they took when they got in there wasn't logical at all. It's all way too fishy. When she came out with the line about being sent in that direction by god I was pulling my hair out. As I said in a different post only in America.
[close]
So bloody what? If you watch football to be absolutely miserable then go watch cricket.

Offline Kashinoda

  • More broken biscuits than made of crisps
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,934
  • ....mmm
Re: Making A Murderer - A Netflix Documentary Series *Please use spoilers*
« Reply #33 on: January 1, 2016, 09:52:54 pm »
Spoiler
They had to have been tipped off? Why were they the only search party given a camera that morning? Which happened to be the housemates personal camera. Even the route they took when they got in there wasn't logical at all. It's all way too fishy. When she came out with the line about being sent in that direction by god I was pulling my hair out. As I said in a different post only in America.
[close]

Spoiler
The cousin who had the camera was weird as fuck, she didn't come across as remotely genuine.
[close]
:D

Offline robertobaggio37

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 8,243
  • But we will conquer the ball, each fucking time.
Re: Making A Murderer - A Netflix Documentary Series *Please use spoilers*
« Reply #34 on: January 1, 2016, 10:15:15 pm »
Just about to watch this.
The biggest problem anywhere in the world is that people's perceptions of reality are filtered through the screening mesh of what they want, and do not want, to be true.

Offline Alan_X

  • WUM. 'twatito' - The Cat Herding Firm But Fair Voice Of Reason (Except when he's got a plank up his arse). Gimme some skin, priest! Has a general dislike for Elijah Wood. Clearly cannot fill even a thong! RAWK Resident Muppet. Has a crush o
  • RAWK Staff
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 53,384
  • Come on you fucking red men!!!
  • Super Title: This is super!
Re: Making A Murderer - A Netflix Documentary Series
« Reply #35 on: January 1, 2016, 10:42:42 pm »
I can't see the point in having this full of spoiler tags. Lots of interesting discussion and it's all available on Netflix. 

I'll change the thread title tomorrow.
Sid Lowe (@sidlowe)
09/03/2011 08:04
Give a man a mask and he will tell the truth, Give a man a user name and he will act like a total twat.
Its all about winning shiny things.

Offline johnsmithlfc

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 5,399
  • You may say I'm a Dreamer
Re: Making A Murderer - A Netflix Documentary Series *Please use spoilers*
« Reply #36 on: January 1, 2016, 10:49:16 pm »
Just watched the first episode and I have no idea where this is going or will end up but damn....what a crazy story so far!!
I know its going to get much worse - poor guy.

 :o
The greatness of a man is not in how much wealth he acquires but in his integrity and his ability to affect those around him positively - Bob Marley

Offline FlashGordon

  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 12,727
  • RAWK Cheltenham 2021 Champion Tipster*
Re: Making A Murderer - A Netflix Documentary Series
« Reply #37 on: January 1, 2016, 10:59:21 pm »
I can't see the point in having this full of spoiler tags. Lots of interesting discussion and it's all available on Netflix. 

I'll change the thread title tomorrow.

I was thinking the same, if you type in his name to google the first thing that you'll see is the results/facts of the case.
So bloody what? If you watch football to be absolutely miserable then go watch cricket.

Offline owens_2k

  • Bagged the role of third spud in the annual RAWK panto
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 4,200
Re: Making A Murderer - A Netflix Documentary Series *Please use spoilers*
« Reply #38 on: January 2, 2016, 01:04:22 am »
I'm very much of the opinion that DNA was planted and the key too. However it does seem convenient that Avery had a cut on his finger. If he has no cut then there's no case surely? How could the people involved in the cover up ensure Avery had a cut?? They couldn't.

Offline Kashinoda

  • More broken biscuits than made of crisps
  • RAWK Supporter
  • Legacy Fan
  • ******
  • Posts: 15,934
  • ....mmm
Re: Making A Murderer - A Netflix Documentary Series *Please use spoilers*
« Reply #39 on: January 2, 2016, 01:51:19 am »
I'm very much of the opinion that DNA was planted and the key too. However it does seem convenient that Avery had a cut on his finger. If he has no cut then there's no case surely? How could the people involved in the cover up ensure Avery had a cut?? They couldn't.

Plenty of places you could bleed from without leaving a cut (nose, mouth, genitals etc.), plus did they ever give him a medical examination after finding blood?

Everytime you think you'd clocked something with this you remember a million other things that don't make sense.

I went through a guilty phase this morning then I remembered how massively inconsistent the stories were from Lenk and the other one at the trial.
:D